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[Homebrew_PCBs] Direct Toner - First Try Results

[Homebrew_PCBs] Direct Toner - First Try Results

2008-04-02 by Mark Lerman

I just made my first (single sided) board using my modified laser 
printer that deposits toner directly on the board. A few observations 
and questions:

1- I used the Eagle Demo2 board, but inserted four 2 mil traces 
between 2 of the dip pads, each connecting to one of 4 adjacent pads. 
These are 2 mil traces on 10 mil centers, with the traces on the 
sides being 7.5 mils from the pads.

2 - I used some of Dave's gel on the 1/32 inch thick board - will try 
without it later.

3 - I then ran the board through a laminator once - no carrier.

4- I etched using muriatic acid / peroxide, room temperature, a 
little agitation by hand rocking the board.

The board came out okay, but there is some pitting that I am not 
happy with. All four 2 mil traces are intact, none of them are 
shorted. Questions:

1 - Should I have run the board through the laminator more than 
once?  I bought the laminator at Staples, no model number on the box, 
but I believe it is one of those recommended on the laminator link. 
I'll have to measure the temperature sometime. Any other thoughts re 
the laminator?

2 - Would I be better off using an oven or hotplate to fuse the 
toner? I can control the temperature quite well, but will the toner 
fuse well without the pressure?

3 - What causes the pitting? Too long in the etchant?   Toner not 
completely fused? All the traces and pads seem equally pitted, so I 
don't think it's the trace width.

Lots of questions, but I realize that I am on somewhat uncharted 
territory here. It's going to take time and experimentation to work 
it all out, but I'm excited by the possibilities of this technique.

Mark

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Direct Toner - First Try Results

2008-04-02 by listgroups08@ozwebwiz.com

Hi Mark,
             I may offer some limited suggestions to some of your questions.

Q: 1 - Should I have run the board through the laminator more than
once?
A: It may possibly help to run the PCB through a second time if the 
laminators temperature is to low or the roller speed too fast but this is 
less than an ideal solution. If it is one of these problems then it is best 
for reduce the roller speed or increase the temperature as each pass of the 
PCB through the laminator introduces more pressure on the PCB and may cause 
additional smearing.

Q: 2 - Would I be better off using an oven or hotplate to fuse the
toner? I can control the temperature quite well, but will the toner
fuse well without the pressure?
A: Two parts to your question.
1) Better temperature regulation should yield better results irrespective of 
the method apart from what is said in part 2.
2) In a printer, paper is porous and the textured surface is irregular. 
Fuser pressure forces the toner into the surface causing a strong bond. A 
PCB is not porous and has a distinctly regular surface so this is not 
required for this reason. However there is a second function that may be 
necessary depending on your etch process. Toner can have pockets of air 
underneath and the fuser will most likely expel this air. Correct 
temperature by non-pressure methods should work just as well but a fuser 
leaves more room for temperature error. None of this will matter unless 
capillary action takes etch into the resist-to-copper gap and even this will 
probably make no difference depending on the etch process. I use Ferric 
Chloride and exposure to air. As the exposure to air accelerates the 
process, air deprived etch that may be in the gaps has less opportunity to 
make any difference or pitting. Other etches may behave differently.

Q: 3 - What causes the pitting? Too long in the etching?   Toner not
completely fused? All the traces and pads seem equally pitted, so I
don't think it's the trace width.
A: See two above. Also insufficient toner or too high a fusing temperature 
will cause this problem. Or too low a temperature that causes air to be 
trapped. Too long in the etch can cause it too but most people monitor the 
etching and take the board out as soon as the etch is complete.

Hope this helps, Robert
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Lerman" <mlerman@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 7:16 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Direct Toner - First Try Results


I just made my first (single sided) board using my modified laser
printer that deposits toner directly on the board. A few observations
and questions:

1- I used the Eagle Demo2 board, but inserted four 2 mil traces
between 2 of the dip pads, each connecting to one of 4 adjacent pads.
These are 2 mil traces on 10 mil centers, with the traces on the
sides being 7.5 mils from the pads.

2 - I used some of Dave's gel on the 1/32 inch thick board - will try
without it later.

3 - I then ran the board through a laminator once - no carrier.

4- I etched using muriatic acid / peroxide, room temperature, a
little agitation by hand rocking the board.

The board came out okay, but there is some pitting that I am not
happy with. All four 2 mil traces are intact, none of them are
shorted. Questions:

1 - Should I have run the board through the laminator more than
once?  I bought the laminator at Staples, no model number on the box,
but I believe it is one of those recommended on the laminator link.
I'll have to measure the temperature sometime. Any other thoughts re
the laminator?

2 - Would I be better off using an oven or hotplate to fuse the
toner? I can control the temperature quite well, but will the toner
fuse well without the pressure?

3 - What causes the pitting? Too long in the etchant?   Toner not
completely fused? All the traces and pads seem equally pitted, so I
don't think it's the trace width.

Lots of questions, but I realize that I am on somewhat uncharted
territory here. It's going to take time and experimentation to work
it all out, but I'm excited by the possibilities of this technique.

Mark


------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Direct Toner - First Try Results

2008-04-02 by listgroups08@ozwebwiz.com

Hello Mark,
                  An afterthought or two.

I find that when I have to visually examine something in fine detail, it is 
easier to scan it on my scanner at maximum resolution and then scroll 
through the image on the PC screen. Perhaps you can do this with the fuser 
PCB to look for clues.

If the problem is air pockets then it may pay to go over the PCB with very 
fine sand/emery paper (1200) before printing.

Robert.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Lerman" <mlerman@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 7:16 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Direct Toner - First Try Results


I just made my first (single sided) board using my modified laser
printer that deposits toner directly on the board. A few observations
and questions:

1- I used the Eagle Demo2 board, but inserted four 2 mil traces
between 2 of the dip pads, each connecting to one of 4 adjacent pads.
These are 2 mil traces on 10 mil centers, with the traces on the
sides being 7.5 mils from the pads.

2 - I used some of Dave's gel on the 1/32 inch thick board - will try
without it later.

3 - I then ran the board through a laminator once - no carrier.

4- I etched using muriatic acid / peroxide, room temperature, a
little agitation by hand rocking the board.

The board came out okay, but there is some pitting that I am not
happy with. All four 2 mil traces are intact, none of them are
shorted. Questions:

1 - Should I have run the board through the laminator more than
once?  I bought the laminator at Staples, no model number on the box,
but I believe it is one of those recommended on the laminator link.
I'll have to measure the temperature sometime. Any other thoughts re
the laminator?

2 - Would I be better off using an oven or hotplate to fuse the
toner? I can control the temperature quite well, but will the toner
fuse well without the pressure?

3 - What causes the pitting? Too long in the etchant?   Toner not
completely fused? All the traces and pads seem equally pitted, so I
don't think it's the trace width.

Lots of questions, but I realize that I am on somewhat uncharted
territory here. It's going to take time and experimentation to work
it all out, but I'm excited by the possibilities of this technique.

Mark


------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Direct Toner - First Try Results

2008-04-02 by Mark Lerman

Robert,

My second try was MUCH better.  I noticed that the pitting was 
actually more like streaks, all going in the same direction. Perhaps 
caused by the gel?? Or not enough fusing?? Anyway, this time I used 
no gel, then ran it through the laminator 4 times, once in each 
direction. I etched it, and the results seem about perfect. No 
pitting, no smearing. The 2 mil traces are perfect! I suspect I can 
get them closer together than the 10 mil centers I am using now, but 
these are pretty fine traces and more than adequate for what I usually do.

I used a precision optical sensor to find the leading edge of the 
board as it enters the printer. I wonder if I can make double sided 
boards with adequate registration? For now I think I'll stick with 
what I have. A double sided board can easily be made using thinner 
board and gluing two boards together using registration holes and pins.

Mark



At 06:59 PM 4/2/2008, you wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>Hello Mark,
>                   An afterthought or two.
>
>I find that when I have to visually examine something in fine detail, it is
>easier to scan it on my scanner at maximum resolution and then scroll
>through the image on the PC screen. Perhaps you can do this with the fuser
>PCB to look for clues.
>
>If the problem is air pockets then it may pay to go over the PCB with very
>fine sand/emery paper (1200) before printing.
>
>Robert.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Mark Lerman" <mlerman@...>
>To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 7:16 AM
>Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Direct Toner - First Try Results
>
>
>I just made my first (single sided) board using my modified laser
>printer that deposits toner directly on the board. A few observations
>and questions:
>
>1- I used the Eagle Demo2 board, but inserted four 2 mil traces
>between 2 of the dip pads, each connecting to one of 4 adjacent pads.
>These are 2 mil traces on 10 mil centers, with the traces on the
>sides being 7.5 mils from the pads.
>
>2 - I used some of Dave's gel on the 1/32 inch thick board - will try
>without it later.
>
>3 - I then ran the board through a laminator once - no carrier.
>
>4- I etched using muriatic acid / peroxide, room temperature, a
>little agitation by hand rocking the board.
>
>The board came out okay, but there is some pitting that I am not
>happy with. All four 2 mil traces are intact, none of them are
>shorted. Questions:
>
>1 - Should I have run the board through the laminator more than
>once?  I bought the laminator at Staples, no model number on the box,
>but I believe it is one of those recommended on the laminator link.
>I'll have to measure the temperature sometime. Any other thoughts re
>the laminator?
>
>2 - Would I be better off using an oven or hotplate to fuse the
>toner? I can control the temperature quite well, but will the toner
>fuse well without the pressure?
>
>3 - What causes the pitting? Too long in the etchant?   Toner not
>completely fused? All the traces and pads seem equally pitted, so I
>don't think it's the trace width.
>
>Lots of questions, but I realize that I am on somewhat uncharted
>territory here. It's going to take time and experimentation to work
>it all out, but I'm excited by the possibilities of this technique.
>
>Mark
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Direct Toner - First Try Results

2008-04-03 by listgroups08@ozwebwiz.com

Hello Mark,
                  That is great to here!

I can't immediately think what is causing the pitting to be in lines or 
streaks. If would have been great if you took a high resolution scan and put 
it somewhere where it can be downloaded. I have web space if you need.

As for the opto sensor and registration, it may be worth mentioning that all 
opto sensors are not created equal. The worst problem with the mechanical 
flag type setup is that variations in movement from one activation to the 
next is the main cause. A direct opto sensor setup without the pivoting 
actuator is hundreds of times better.

The common garden variety sensor used most in domestic electronics is a 
0.5mm. In other words the optical path is 0.5mm wide. These may be fine for 
some boards but if you are working down to 2mil resolution then they may not 
be so good.

Physically and electrically identical opto sensors are available that only 
differ in optical path width. These go down to 0.01mm. If you can tell me 
approximately where you are then I will find a supplier close to you.

You can get more registration reliability from the more common sensors by 
reducing the influence of optical and electrostatic noise and bias. Just put 
it in a metal shield to block out electrical interference and ambient light. 
The darker the sensors environment the more consistent it will be. As the 
actual sensor part of it is a semiconductor (photo transistor) it can also 
be influenced by electrical noise.

The split board method will always solve this problem but I feel that it 
causes unnecessary work. In my project (inkjet direct etch resist) I will be 
drilling two registration holes in the board to clip onto pins in a truly 
flat bed printer.

I am looking at my old laser printer now and wondering if I should bother to 
buy a new inkjet printer. Perhaps after your success I should go directly to 
laser direct etch resist.

I looked in the shed the other day and I have quite an amount of single side 
laminate that is about 0.2 - 0.3mm thick along with plenty of single sided 
FR4. Perhaps I should try the thinner laminate in the laser.

I have a spare image drum to, so perhaps my laser printer should be getting 
nervous.

Keep up the good work, your getting excellent results, well capable for SMD 
work.

My hobby work is digital so I need good resolution as well.

Thanks, Robert.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Lerman" <mlerman@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 9:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Direct Toner - First Try Results


Robert,

My second try was MUCH better.  I noticed that the pitting was
actually more like streaks, all going in the same direction. Perhaps
caused by the gel?? Or not enough fusing?? Anyway, this time I used
no gel, then ran it through the laminator 4 times, once in each
direction. I etched it, and the results seem about perfect. No
pitting, no smearing. The 2 mil traces are perfect! I suspect I can
get them closer together than the 10 mil centers I am using now, but
these are pretty fine traces and more than adequate for what I usually do.

I used a precision optical sensor to find the leading edge of the
board as it enters the printer. I wonder if I can make double sided
boards with adequate registration? For now I think I'll stick with
what I have. A double sided board can easily be made using thinner
board and gluing two boards together using registration holes and pins.

Mark



At 06:59 PM 4/2/2008, you wrote:
>Hello Mark,
>                   An afterthought or two.
>
>I find that when I have to visually examine something in fine detail, it is
>easier to scan it on my scanner at maximum resolution and then scroll
>through the image on the PC screen. Perhaps you can do this with the fuser
>PCB to look for clues.
>
>If the problem is air pockets then it may pay to go over the PCB with very
>fine sand/emery paper (1200) before printing.
>
>Robert.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Mark Lerman" <mlerman@...>
>To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 7:16 AM
>Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Direct Toner - First Try Results
>
>
>I just made my first (single sided) board using my modified laser
>printer that deposits toner directly on the board. A few observations
>and questions:
>
>1- I used the Eagle Demo2 board, but inserted four 2 mil traces
>between 2 of the dip pads, each connecting to one of 4 adjacent pads.
>These are 2 mil traces on 10 mil centers, with the traces on the
>sides being 7.5 mils from the pads.
>
>2 - I used some of Dave's gel on the 1/32 inch thick board - will try
>without it later.
>
>3 - I then ran the board through a laminator once - no carrier.
>
>4- I etched using muriatic acid / peroxide, room temperature, a
>little agitation by hand rocking the board.
>
>The board came out okay, but there is some pitting that I am not
>happy with. All four 2 mil traces are intact, none of them are
>shorted. Questions:
>
>1 - Should I have run the board through the laminator more than
>once?  I bought the laminator at Staples, no model number on the box,
>but I believe it is one of those recommended on the laminator link.
>I'll have to measure the temperature sometime. Any other thoughts re
>the laminator?
>
>2 - Would I be better off using an oven or hotplate to fuse the
>toner? I can control the temperature quite well, but will the toner
>fuse well without the pressure?
>
>3 - What causes the pitting? Too long in the etchant?   Toner not
>completely fused? All the traces and pads seem equally pitted, so I
>don't think it's the trace width.
>
>Lots of questions, but I realize that I am on somewhat uncharted
>territory here. It's going to take time and experimentation to work
>it all out, but I'm excited by the possibilities of this technique.
>
>Mark
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Direct Toner - First Try Results

2008-04-03 by mlerman@ix.netcom.com

Hi Robert,

I'm using a precision focused opto reflector - angled beam and receiver. I could use a split board with a slit to precisely detect the edge of the board, but there are other problems. The laser printer does not work like an inkjet. The rollers start moving, but the paper isn't pulled from the tray till the drum is charged. Then the paper is pulled, goes into the drive rollers, then hits the edge detector that starts the printing. I have to wait for a "beep" that represents the solenoid that originally pulled the paper from the tray, then I have a few seconds to hand feed the board into the rollers and release it. Too long and it doesn't print and goes into error mode. It's important that the rollers keep the speed constant as it prints to avoid distortion.

It's much easier to just make two boards (or print both sides on one sheet of pcb), then use registration holes to align and glue them together.

The whole process, from printing through etching, takes much less than 10 minutes, mostly for etching.

Mark

-----Original Message-----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>From: listgroups08@...
>Sent: Apr 2, 2008 9:14 PM
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Direct Toner - First Try Results
>
>Hello Mark,
>                  That is great to here!
>
>I can't immediately think what is causing the pitting to be in lines or 
>streaks. If would have been great if you took a high resolution scan and put 
>it somewhere where it can be downloaded. I have web space if you need.
>
>As for the opto sensor and registration, it may be worth mentioning that all 
>opto sensors are not created equal. The worst problem with the mechanical 
>flag type setup is that variations in movement from one activation to the 
>next is the main cause. A direct opto sensor setup without the pivoting 
>actuator is hundreds of times better.
>
>The common garden variety sensor used most in domestic electronics is a 
>0.5mm. In other words the optical path is 0.5mm wide. These may be fine for 
>some boards but if you are working down to 2mil resolution then they may not 
>be so good.
>
>Physically and electrically identical opto sensors are available that only 
>differ in optical path width. These go down to 0.01mm. If you can tell me 
>approximately where you are then I will find a supplier close to you.
>
>You can get more registration reliability from the more common sensors by 
>reducing the influence of optical and electrostatic noise and bias. Just put 
>it in a metal shield to block out electrical interference and ambient light. 
>The darker the sensors environment the more consistent it will be. As the 
>actual sensor part of it is a semiconductor (photo transistor) it can also 
>be influenced by electrical noise.
>
>The split board method will always solve this problem but I feel that it 
>causes unnecessary work. In my project (inkjet direct etch resist) I will be 
>drilling two registration holes in the board to clip onto pins in a truly 
>flat bed printer.
>
>I am looking at my old laser printer now and wondering if I should bother to 
>buy a new inkjet printer. Perhaps after your success I should go directly to 
>laser direct etch resist.
>
>I looked in the shed the other day and I have quite an amount of single side 
>laminate that is about 0.2 - 0.3mm thick along with plenty of single sided 
>FR4. Perhaps I should try the thinner laminate in the laser.
>
>I have a spare image drum to, so perhaps my laser printer should be getting 
>nervous.
>
>Keep up the good work, your getting excellent results, well capable for SMD 
>work.
>
>My hobby work is digital so I need good resolution as well.
>
>Thanks, Robert.
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Mark Lerman" <mlerman@...>
>To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 9:31 AM
>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Direct Toner - First Try Results
>
>
>Robert,
>
>My second try was MUCH better.  I noticed that the pitting was
>actually more like streaks, all going in the same direction. Perhaps
>caused by the gel?? Or not enough fusing?? Anyway, this time I used
>no gel, then ran it through the laminator 4 times, once in each
>direction. I etched it, and the results seem about perfect. No
>pitting, no smearing. The 2 mil traces are perfect! I suspect I can
>get them closer together than the 10 mil centers I am using now, but
>these are pretty fine traces and more than adequate for what I usually do.
>
>I used a precision optical sensor to find the leading edge of the
>board as it enters the printer. I wonder if I can make double sided
>boards with adequate registration? For now I think I'll stick with
>what I have. A double sided board can easily be made using thinner
>board and gluing two boards together using registration holes and pins.
>
>Mark
>
>
>
>At 06:59 PM 4/2/2008, you wrote:
>>Hello Mark,
>>                   An afterthought or two.
>>
>>I find that when I have to visually examine something in fine detail, it is
>>easier to scan it on my scanner at maximum resolution and then scroll
>>through the image on the PC screen. Perhaps you can do this with the fuser
>>PCB to look for clues.
>>
>>If the problem is air pockets then it may pay to go over the PCB with very
>>fine sand/emery paper (1200) before printing.
>>
>>Robert.
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Mark Lerman" <mlerman@...>
>>To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
>>Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 7:16 AM
>>Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Direct Toner - First Try Results
>>
>>
>>I just made my first (single sided) board using my modified laser
>>printer that deposits toner directly on the board. A few observations
>>and questions:
>>
>>1- I used the Eagle Demo2 board, but inserted four 2 mil traces
>>between 2 of the dip pads, each connecting to one of 4 adjacent pads.
>>These are 2 mil traces on 10 mil centers, with the traces on the
>>sides being 7.5 mils from the pads.
>>
>>2 - I used some of Dave's gel on the 1/32 inch thick board - will try
>>without it later.
>>
>>3 - I then ran the board through a laminator once - no carrier.
>>
>>4- I etched using muriatic acid / peroxide, room temperature, a
>>little agitation by hand rocking the board.
>>
>>The board came out okay, but there is some pitting that I am not
>>happy with. All four 2 mil traces are intact, none of them are
>>shorted. Questions:
>>
>>1 - Should I have run the board through the laminator more than
>>once?  I bought the laminator at Staples, no model number on the box,
>>but I believe it is one of those recommended on the laminator link.
>>I'll have to measure the temperature sometime. Any other thoughts re
>>the laminator?
>>
>>2 - Would I be better off using an oven or hotplate to fuse the
>>toner? I can control the temperature quite well, but will the toner
>>fuse well without the pressure?
>>
>>3 - What causes the pitting? Too long in the etchant?   Toner not
>>completely fused? All the traces and pads seem equally pitted, so I
>>don't think it's the trace width.
>>
>>Lots of questions, but I realize that I am on somewhat uncharted
>>territory here. It's going to take time and experimentation to work
>>it all out, but I'm excited by the possibilities of this technique.
>>
>>Mark
>>
>>
>>------------------------------------
>>
>>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>------------------------------------
>>
>>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Direct Toner - First Try Results

2008-04-03 by Bertho Boman

Hi Mark

Keep up your excellent work!

This is a very interesting application!  In addition to Robert's comments on
the opto interrupter accuracy here is a link to an accuracy evaluation of
them:

http://www.vinland.com/Opto-Interrupter.html

 

As for laminator issues, I think getting away from it and using a controlled
melt will long-term be much more preferable since the laminator inherently
tend to counteract what we want: Narrow accurate lines.  Applying pressure
to molten toner is asking for it to widen and possibly smear.  It is
difficult to get both pressure and temperature reliably and repeatedly
controlled at the same time.

Bertho

 

 

From Mark Lerman   Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 19:32
----<snip
I used a precision optical sensor to find the leading edge of the 
board as it enters the printer. I wonder if I can make double sided 
boards with adequate registration? For now I think I'll stick with 
what I have. A double sided board can easily be made using thinner 
board and gluing two boards together using registration holes and pins.
Mark



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Direct Toner - First Try Results

2008-04-03 by Mark Lerman

Bertho,

I wouldn't have thought that opto interruptors would be that 
repeatable. I'm going to run a sheet of paper through a laser printer 
twice and see how well duplicate images register - a rough measure of 
what's easily accomplishable.

I just bought a pid controller - going to put it on a hot plate and 
see what happens. Or maybe an oven? Which is better for smt soldering?

Mark


At 10:45 PM 4/2/2008, you wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>Hi Mark
>
>Keep up your excellent work!
>
>This is a very interesting application!  In addition to Robert's comments on
>the opto interrupter accuracy here is a link to an accuracy evaluation of
>them:
>
>http://www.vinland.com/Opto-Interrupter.html
>
>
>
>As for laminator issues, I think getting away from it and using a controlled
>melt will long-term be much more preferable since the laminator inherently
>tend to counteract what we want: Narrow accurate lines.  Applying pressure
>to molten toner is asking for it to widen and possibly smear.  It is
>difficult to get both pressure and temperature reliably and repeatedly
>controlled at the same time.
>
>Bertho
>
>
>
>
>
> From Mark Lerman   Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 19:32
>----<snip
>I used a precision optical sensor to find the leading edge of the
>board as it enters the printer. I wonder if I can make double sided
>boards with adequate registration? For now I think I'll stick with
>what I have. A double sided board can easily be made using thinner
>board and gluing two boards together using registration holes and pins.
>Mark
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Direct Toner - First Try Results

2008-04-03 by Bertho Boman

Hi Mark,

If you are using a hotplate, the contact between it and the PCB affects the
PCB's temperature.  In that case, you also ought to have a cover that
matches the hotplate temperature (good contact).  That then in effect forms
a mini-oven with uniform temperature.

 

It might be more convenient to have an oven with proper air circulation and
independently of the oven temperature control, attach a thermocouple to the
bottom of the PCB to monitor its temperature.

 

Do you have any pictures of the modified laser printer?

Bertho
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From:  Mark Lerman     Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 08:39
Bertho,

I wouldn't have thought that opto interruptors would be that 
repeatable. I'm going to run a sheet of paper through a laser printer 
twice and see how well duplicate images register - a rough measure of 
what's easily accomplishable.

I just bought a pid controller - going to put it on a hot plate and 
see what happens. Or maybe an oven? Which is better for smt soldering?

Mark





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Direct Toner - First Try Results

2008-04-03 by Brian

I am new to this group, and never thought about making my own PCB's.  
I have usually ordered them, but I see the benefit and am curious 
about this.  

Now on this thread...It would seem to me that you could modify a 
George Foreman grill to use flat plates instead of the ribbed ones 
and limit the heat and whammo a simple small double sided hotplate.

Am I completely wrong on this?  If not, I might look into it as I 
have a couple laying around.  And even so, they are only like 20 
bucks for the small one.

Brian

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Bertho Boman" <boman01@...> 
wrote:
>
> Hi Mark,
> 
> If you are using a hotplate, the contact between it and the PCB 
affects the
> PCB's temperature.  In that case, you also ought to have a cover 
that
> matches the hotplate temperature (good contact).  That then in 
effect forms
> a mini-oven with uniform temperature.
> 
>  
> 
> It might be more convenient to have an oven with proper air 
circulation and
> independently of the oven temperature control, attach a 
thermocouple to the
> bottom of the PCB to monitor its temperature.
> 
>  
> 
> Do you have any pictures of the modified laser printer?
> 
> Bertho
> 
>  
> 
> From:  Mark Lerman     Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 08:39
> Bertho,
> 
> I wouldn't have thought that opto interruptors would be that 
> repeatable. I'm going to run a sheet of paper through a laser 
printer 
> twice and see how well duplicate images register - a rough measure 
of 
> what's easily accomplishable.
> 
> I just bought a pid controller - going to put it on a hot plate and 
> see what happens. Or maybe an oven? Which is better for smt 
soldering?
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Direct Toner - First Try Results

2008-04-03 by Mark Lerman

I think maybe a hot plate with a thermocouple on the copper of the 
board. I'll do some tests this weekend.

I'm going to take and post some pictures in the next few days.

Mark


At 01:26 PM 4/3/2008, you wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>Hi Mark,
>
>If you are using a hotplate, the contact between it and the PCB affects the
>PCB's temperature.  In that case, you also ought to have a cover that
>matches the hotplate temperature (good contact).  That then in effect forms
>a mini-oven with uniform temperature.
>
>
>
>It might be more convenient to have an oven with proper air circulation and
>independently of the oven temperature control, attach a thermocouple to the
>bottom of the PCB to monitor its temperature.
>
>
>
>Do you have any pictures of the modified laser printer?
>
>Bertho
>
>
>
>From:  Mark Lerman     Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 08:39
>Bertho,
>
>I wouldn't have thought that opto interruptors would be that
>repeatable. I'm going to run a sheet of paper through a laser printer
>twice and see how well duplicate images register - a rough measure of
>what's easily accomplishable.
>
>I just bought a pid controller - going to put it on a hot plate and
>see what happens. Or maybe an oven? Which is better for smt soldering?
>
>Mark
>
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Direct Toner - First Try Results

2008-04-04 by listgroups08@ozwebwiz.com

Hi Bertho and Mark,
                                I had a look at the web page you mentioned.

I just though I would mention that the opto couple mentioned is not at all 
like the common garden variety.

A common opto couple has a light emitting diode and a photo transistor. The 
one mentioned has an active circuit (schmitt trigger) incorporated with the 
sensor and hence the extra connection.

Normal opto couples have four connections, diode Anode(A), diode Cathode(K), 
transistor Emitter(e) and transistor Collector(c). The one you mentioned has 
an extra connection to supply voltage to additional circuitry for the 
hysteresis trigger.

The performance of the one mentioned is excellent especially considering 
that it is working with a 1/4mm aperture.

I just thought I would mention this so others know that while this unit is 
excellent, extra design considerations must be made to give it a well 
regulated voltage supply. It is not a drop in replacement for the garden 
variety.

However the garden variety have apertures from 1/2mm to 1/10mm, with the 
1/2mm being the most common. It would be interesting to see the specs for 
the 1/10mm units.

Thanks, Robert.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bertho Boman"

Hi Mark

Keep up your excellent work!

This is a very interesting application!  In addition to Robert's comments on
the opto interrupter accuracy here is a link to an accuracy evaluation of
them:

http://www.vinland.com/Opto-Interrupter.html

<snip>

Bertho


From Mark Lerman   Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 19:32
----<snip
I used a precision optical sensor to find the leading edge of the
board as it enters the printer. I wonder if I can make double sided
boards with adequate registration? For now I think I'll stick with
what I have. A double sided board can easily be made using thinner
board and gluing two boards together using registration holes and pins.
Mark

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Direct Toner - First Try Results

2008-04-04 by Bertho Boman

Hi Robert,

Thanks for pointing out that the unit has the internal Schmitt trigger which
some people might have missed.  

 

Similar result can be achieved with a plain opto-interrupter though since a
proper design should use a well-defined trigger voltage which normally would
be an external comparator with or without added hysteresis.

 

The tested unit is not sensitive to supply voltage though.  Yes, it should
be used with a regulated supply for best performance but that is so common
today.   For example, connecting it to a regulated 12V supply commonly
available in a PC, the trip point only changes 4 microns for a drastic
supply change of + or - 1V.  A typical 0.2V change would be less than 1
micron trip point change. (1 micron=39 micro Inches)

Bertho
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: listgroups08@...    Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 22:37
Hi Bertho and Mark,
I had a look at the web page you mentioned.

I just though I would mention that the opto couple mentioned is not at all 
like the common garden variety.

A common opto couple has a light emitting diode and a photo transistor. The 
one mentioned has an active circuit (schmitt trigger) incorporated with the 
sensor and hence the extra connection.

Normal opto couples have four connections, diode Anode(A), diode Cathode(K),

transistor Emitter(e) and transistor Collector(c). The one you mentioned has

an extra connection to supply voltage to additional circuitry for the 
hysteresis trigger.

The performance of the one mentioned is excellent especially considering 
that it is working with a 1/4mm aperture.

I just thought I would mention this so others know that while this unit is 
excellent, extra design considerations must be made to give it a well 
regulated voltage supply. It is not a drop in replacement for the garden 
variety.

However the garden variety have apertures from 1/2mm to 1/10mm, with the 
1/2mm being the most common. It would be interesting to see the specs for 
the 1/10mm units.

Thanks, Robert.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bertho Boman"

Hi Mark

Keep up your excellent work!

This is a very interesting application! In addition to Robert's comments on
the opto interrupter accuracy here is a link to an accuracy evaluation of
them:

http://www.vinland.com/Opto-Interrupter.html

<snip>

Bertho

From Mark Lerman Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 19:32
----<snip
I used a precision optical sensor to find the leading edge of the
board as it enters the printer. I wonder if I can make double sided
boards with adequate registration? For now I think I'll stick with
what I have. A double sided board can easily be made using thinner
board and gluing two boards together using registration holes and pins.
Mark 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Homebrew_PCBs] Direct Toner - Some Pictures

2008-04-04 by Mark Lerman

Here are some pictures of the direct laser printer method of pcb 
production. More to follow, but if anyone wants any specific shot, let me know.

<http://www.pbase.com/mark10970/>

Mark

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Direct Toner - Some Pictures

2008-04-04 by Stefan Trethan

Is it possible that you printed out both layers of a double-sided board? ;-)

Looks nice though, any chance of getting really high resolution
pictures of the fine trace area? Usually a scanner does a better job
than a camera.

thanks

ST
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 6:24 PM, Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> wrote:
> Here are some pictures of the direct laser printer method of pcb
> production. More to follow, but if anyone wants any specific shot, let me know.
>
> <http://www.pbase.com/mark10970/>
>
> Mark
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Direct Toner - Some Pictures

2008-04-04 by Mark Lerman

Yes, I did print both sides at once - I didn't notice it the first 
time, but did it the second time for comparison. I do have quite high 
resolution photographs, probably better than a scanner. I used a high 
quality macro lens on a 12.8 mp camera. On photoshop I can resolve it 
to the pixel level. I'll try to upload a larger image.

Mark

At 12:30 PM 4/4/2008, you wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>Is it possible that you printed out both layers of a double-sided board? ;-)
>
>Looks nice though, any chance of getting really high resolution
>pictures of the fine trace area? Usually a scanner does a better job
>than a camera.
>
>thanks
>
>ST
>
>On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 6:24 PM, Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> wrote:
> > Here are some pictures of the direct laser printer method of pcb
> > production. More to follow, but if anyone wants any specific 
> shot, let me know.
> >
> > <http://www.pbase.com/mark10970/>
> >
> > Mark
> >
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Direct Toner - Some Pictures

2008-04-04 by Mark Lerman

I just uploaded a high resolution image of that area - let me know if 
you want higher resolution! I also added some captions.

Mark


At 12:30 PM 4/4/2008, you wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>Is it possible that you printed out both layers of a double-sided board? ;-)
>
>Looks nice though, any chance of getting really high resolution
>pictures of the fine trace area? Usually a scanner does a better job
>than a camera.
>
>thanks
>
>ST
>
>On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 6:24 PM, Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> wrote:
> > Here are some pictures of the direct laser printer method of pcb
> > production. More to follow, but if anyone wants any specific 
> shot, let me know.
> >
> > <http://www.pbase.com/mark10970/>
> >
> > Mark
> >
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Direct Toner - Some Pictures

2008-04-04 by Bertho Boman

Great work Mark!!

Congratulations on a clever system, I never expected that to work so well.

Bertho

 

From:  Mark Lerman    Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 13:00

I just uploaded a high resolution image of that area - let me know if 
you want higher resolution! I also added some captions.
Mark





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Direct Toner - Some Pictures

2008-04-05 by Mike

Good work, Mark.  Thanks for sharing your technique and results.

At 12:24 PM 4/4/2008, you wrote:
>Here are some pictures of the direct laser printer method of pcb
>production. More to follow, but if anyone wants any specific shot, 
>let me know.
>
><http://www.pbase.com/mark10970/>
>
>Mark
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
         73,
         Mike, K4GMH 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Direct Toner - First Try Results

2008-04-05 by Bertho Boman

Actually the idea of the Foreman grill might be promising but for another
reason: Temperature profile control.

 

First, add some temperature controller to the grill and a thermocouple for
readout and often that is part of the controller.  And fix the legs so the
board will be horizontal.

 

Leave the bottom ribs, if possible, just machine the tips so they form a
solid support and not twisting or rocking the board but I like the airspace
below the board.  The sharper the tips and the less contact, the better.   I
would machine off the top ribs to make space for the components.

 

Placing an SMT board directly on a flat hotplate will likely create a severe
thermal shock to the board and the components.  That is why a real system
has controlled preheat and cool of sections.

 

So keep the grill closed, let it come up to operating temperature, open it
wide and place the PCB on the ribs and wait  XX seconds (that is our first
part of the pre-heat) and then close the grill.  The entrapped air is
approximately at room temperature but it will very quickly heat up to the
grill temperature.  That air plus the infrared radiation will gradually
bring up the board temperature to the soldering point and it will be
repeatable and gradual without the direct hotplate contact.  After xx
seconds, open the grill but leave the board to cool off a little on the
grill with some air circulation.  After the solder has solidified and a
little further cooling, maybe a fan added on the side, the board can be
removed.

 

This process can be well-controlled since the temperature can be controlled
and the time per step can be timed with a watch.

Happy grilling,

Bertho

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From:  Brian    Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 13:44
I am new to this group, and never thought about making my own PCB's. 
I have usually ordered them, but I see the benefit and am curious 
about this. 

Now on this thread...It would seem to me that you could modify a 
George Foreman grill to use flat plates instead of the ribbed ones 
and limit the heat and whammo a simple small double sided hotplate.

Am I completely wrong on this? If not, I might look into it as I 
have a couple laying around. And even so, they are only like 20 
bucks for the small one.

Brian





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Direct Toner - First Try Results

2008-04-05 by DJ Delorie

"Bertho Boman" <boman01@...> writes:
> Placing an SMT board directly on a flat hotplate will likely create
> a severe thermal shock to the board and the components.

What I do is put the board on a cold hotplate, then turn it on.  Mine
takes about three minutes to heat enough to melt solder, which seems
to work well for me.

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: was Direct Toner, Now SMT Owen

2008-04-05 by Bertho Boman

I have done that too, and that avoids the temperature shock.  If the
specifications on allowable soldering temperatures and time are going to be
met, it is a little more critical.  Look at the specified soldering profile
for most SMT parts and you will see what I am referring to.

 

As parts get more complex, a proper soldering profile gets more critical and
it also relates to long-term reliability and how much stress was put on the
parts.

 

There normally is a rather long temperature plateau to give the flux an
opportunity to work and then there is quick soldering phase.

Bertho

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From:  DJ Delorie    Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 22:26

"Bertho Boman" <boman01@... <mailto:boman01%40vinland.com> > writes:
> Placing an SMT board directly on a flat hotplate will likely create
> a severe thermal shock to the board and the components.

What I do is put the board on a cold hotplate, then turn it on. Mine
takes about three minutes to heat enough to melt solder, which seems
to work well for me.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Direct Toner - First Try Results

2008-04-05 by Dave Leddon

Instead of modifying a George Foreman grill how about sandwiching the board 
between two thick aluminum plates, using enough c-clamps to insure even 
compression and placing the whole thing in an oven at 400 degrees for about 
30 minutes?
Dave

At 10:43 AM 4/3/2008, you wrote:

>I am new to this group, and never thought about making my own PCB's.
>I have usually ordered them, but I see the benefit and am curious
>about this.
>
>Now on this thread...It would seem to me that you could modify a
>George Foreman grill to use flat plates instead of the ribbed ones
>and limit the heat and whammo a simple small double sided hotplate.
>
>Am I completely wrong on this? If not, I might look into it as I
>have a couple laying around. And even so, they are only like 20
>bucks for the small one.
>
>Brian
>
>--- In 
><mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, 
>"Bertho Boman" <boman01@...>
>wrote:
> >
> > Hi Mark,
> >
> > If you are using a hotplate, the contact between it and the PCB
>affects the
> > PCB's temperature. In that case, you also ought to have a cover
>that
> > matches the hotplate temperature (good contact). That then in
>effect forms
> > a mini-oven with uniform temperature.
> >
> >
> >
> > It might be more convenient to have an oven with proper air
>circulation and
> > independently of the oven temperature control, attach a
>thermocouple to the
> > bottom of the PCB to monitor its temperature.
> >
> >
> >
> > Do you have any pictures of the modified laser printer?
> >
> > Bertho
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Mark Lerman Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 08:39
> > Bertho,
> >
> > I wouldn't have thought that opto interruptors would be that
> > repeatable. I'm going to run a sheet of paper through a laser
>printer
> > twice and see how well duplicate images register - a rough measure
>of
> > what's easily accomplishable.
> >
> > I just bought a pid controller - going to put it on a hot plate and
> > see what happens. Or maybe an oven? Which is better for smt
>soldering?
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Direct Toner - First Try Results

2008-04-05 by Chuck Kelsey

I actually tried that. It worked sort of OK. Maybe with more experimentation 
you could get it better than I did.

Chuck
WB2EDV



----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Dave Leddon" <dave@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 12:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Direct Toner - First Try Results


> Instead of modifying a George Foreman grill how about sandwiching the 
> board
> between two thick aluminum plates, using enough c-clamps to insure even
> compression and placing the whole thing in an oven at 400 degrees for 
> about
> 30 minutes?
> Dave
>
> At 10:43 AM 4/3/2008, you wrote:
>
>>I am new to this group, and never thought about making my own PCB's.
>>I have usually ordered them, but I see the benefit and am curious
>>about this.
>>
>>Now on this thread...It would seem to me that you could modify a
>>George Foreman grill to use flat plates instead of the ribbed ones
>>and limit the heat and whammo a simple small double sided hotplate.
>>
>>Am I completely wrong on this? If not, I might look into it as I
>>have a couple laying around. And even so, they are only like 20
>>bucks for the small one.
>>
>>Brian
>>
>>--- In
>><mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com,
>>"Bertho Boman" <boman01@...>
>>wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi Mark,
>> >
>> > If you are using a hotplate, the contact between it and the PCB
>>affects the
>> > PCB's temperature. In that case, you also ought to have a cover
>>that
>> > matches the hotplate temperature (good contact). That then in
>>effect forms
>> > a mini-oven with uniform temperature.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > It might be more convenient to have an oven with proper air
>>circulation and
>> > independently of the oven temperature control, attach a
>>thermocouple to the
>> > bottom of the PCB to monitor its temperature.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Do you have any pictures of the modified laser printer?
>> >
>> > Bertho
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > From: Mark Lerman Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 08:39
>> > Bertho,
>> >
>> > I wouldn't have thought that opto interruptors would be that
>> > repeatable. I'm going to run a sheet of paper through a laser
>>printer
>> > twice and see how well duplicate images register - a rough measure
>>of
>> > what's easily accomplishable.
>> >
>> > I just bought a pid controller - going to put it on a hot plate and
>> > see what happens. Or maybe an oven? Which is better for smt
>>soldering?
>> >
>> > Mark
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and 
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Direct Toner - Some Pictures

2008-04-05 by listgroups08@ozwebwiz.com

Hello Mark,
                  Did you use the gel for the board with 2mill traces? and 
How did you fuse the toner?

Thanks, Rob.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Lerman" <mlerman@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 3:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Direct Toner - Some Pictures



I just uploaded a high resolution image of that area - let me know if
you want higher resolution! I also added some captions.

Mark


At 12:30 PM 4/4/2008, you wrote:
>Is it possible that you printed out both layers of a double-sided board? 
>;-)
>
>Looks nice though, any chance of getting really high resolution
>pictures of the fine trace area? Usually a scanner does a better job
>than a camera.
>
>thanks
>
>ST
>
>On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 6:24 PM, Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> wrote:
> > Here are some pictures of the direct laser printer method of pcb
> > production. More to follow, but if anyone wants any specific
> shot, let me know.
> >
> > <http://www.pbase.com/mark10970/>
> >
> > Mark
> >
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

------------------------------------

Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Direct Toner - Some Pictures

2008-04-06 by mlerman@ix.netcom.com

Rob,

No gel. I fused it using a laminator, no carrier, and ran it through four times, once in each direction. I'm going to use a hot plate with a thermocouple to try and fuse without pressure - waiting for parts. 

M
-----Original Message-----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>From: listgroups08@...
>Sent: Apr 5, 2008 7:22 PM
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Direct Toner - Some Pictures
>
>Hello Mark,
>                  Did you use the gel for the board with 2mill traces? and 
>How did you fuse the toner?
>
>Thanks, Rob.
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Mark Lerman" <mlerman@...>
>To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 3:00 AM
>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Direct Toner - Some Pictures
>
>
>
>I just uploaded a high resolution image of that area - let me know if
>you want higher resolution! I also added some captions.
>
>Mark
>
>
>At 12:30 PM 4/4/2008, you wrote:
>>Is it possible that you printed out both layers of a double-sided board? 
>>;-)
>>
>>Looks nice though, any chance of getting really high resolution
>>pictures of the fine trace area? Usually a scanner does a better job
>>than a camera.
>>
>>thanks
>>
>>ST
>>
>>On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 6:24 PM, Mark Lerman <mlerman@...> wrote:
>> > Here are some pictures of the direct laser printer method of pcb
>> > production. More to follow, but if anyone wants any specific
>> shot, let me know.
>> >
>> > <http://www.pbase.com/mark10970/>
>> >
>> > Mark
>> >
>>
>>------------------------------------
>>
>>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBsYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

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