Homebrew_PCBs

hi to all..

this moment i finished my inkjet printing experiments.
for all who aren't familiar with the topic:

the target was to use acrylic floor polish in a inkjet printer cartridge and
print it as a resist directly to the pcb surface.

i tried the hp400 and hp51626a cartridges.

i had several used of them, all were clogged a bit.
in one i finally made a "access hole" to get the metal filter out and
inspect the head, and apply solvent to it directly.
i got it not to operate with all jets, some are still disfunctional.
but it makes always a print with more than the half of them, making text
good readable.

with time i really got sick about trying to clean them up further (this is
not easy).

so i decided it is time to put floor polish in the one working partially.

i put polish in, colored with some ink, not a single drop of it ever got
through the head.
i put the cartridge in and from the beginning id was like glued clogged.


believe me, all was right, (pressure, ink actually at the head).

it simply is not working and i don't want to experiment further.


i'm wondering if anybody ever got this really to work and if yes i'm
wondering which head he used, and which polish, and if undiluted or not.


the past days i also faced the disadvantages of this method.
if only one jet is clogged you have every some millimeters a fine gap all
over your pcb tracks.
this is quite bad if you want them to act as conductors.


so please, if anyone knows what's wrong (and actually has done it with
results) please let me know, otherwise i can clearly say i have given up this
method.

i finally learned a lot about printers, and printing heads by taking them
apart.

(does anyone know if hp uses the conductivity of the ink as the heating
element?
in one head i took apart and inspected at x25 microscope i only saw two
electrodes in each jet with a small gap.)



anyways... i think it was worth a try.

regards
stefan

--
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if you can feed pc board thru some inkjet ink is not
water soluble my lexmark 12a1970 is not waterbased
im sure there are others also what about reverse print
positive with normal ink then let dry cover exposed
traces with floor wax then wash ink off could be
interesing good luck
--- stefan_trethan@... wrote:

> hi to all..
>
> this moment i finished my inkjet printing
> experiments.
> for all who aren't familiar with the topic:
>
> the target was to use acrylic floor polish in a
> inkjet printer cartridge and
> print it as a resist directly to the pcb surface.
>
> i tried the hp400 and hp51626a cartridges.
>
> i had several used of them, all were clogged a bit.
> in one i finally made a "access hole" to get the
> metal filter out and
> inspect the head, and apply solvent to it directly.
> i got it not to operate with all jets, some are
> still disfunctional.
> but it makes always a print with more than the half
> of them, making text
> good readable.
>
> with time i really got sick about trying to clean
> them up further (this is
> not easy).
>
> so i decided it is time to put floor polish in the
> one working partially.
>
> i put polish in, colored with some ink, not a single
> drop of it ever got
> through the head.
> i put the cartridge in and from the beginning id was
> like glued clogged.
>
>
> believe me, all was right, (pressure, ink actually
> at the head).
>
> it simply is not working and i don't want to
> experiment further.
>
>
> i'm wondering if anybody ever got this really to
> work and if yes i'm
> wondering which head he used, and which polish, and
> if undiluted or not.
>
>
> the past days i also faced the disadvantages of this
> method.
> if only one jet is clogged you have every some
> millimeters a fine gap all
> over your pcb tracks.
> this is quite bad if you want them to act as
> conductors.
>
>
> so please, if anyone knows what's wrong (and
> actually has done it with
> results) please let me know, otherwise i can clearly
> say i have given up this
> method.
>
> i finally learned a lot about printers, and printing
> heads by taking them
> apart.
>
> (does anyone know if hp uses the conductivity of the
> ink as the heating
> element?
> in one head i took apart and inspected at x25
> microscope i only saw two
> electrodes in each jet with a small gap.)
>
>
>
> anyways... i think it was worth a try.
>
> regards
> stefan
>
> --
> +++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more http://www.gmx.net
> +++
> Bitte l�cheln! Fotogalerie online mit GMX ohne
> eigene Homepage!
>
>

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Hi Stefan-

I followed your work on this project with interest. I hoped it would
work, but I agree with you completely that it was worth the effort.

I have heard that there are "drafting pens" which used to be used on
plotters. Has anyone tried one of those with floor polish?
Incidentally there is a PCB resist ink made by Staedtler (see website
below) but it needs a tungsten-carbide pen point to work.

There is a summary (survey?)of a debate and experimentation with
various pens (and some conflicting opinion) at:

http://eeshop.unl.edu/pen.txt

The Lumocolor 313 is commonly mentioned as a good PCB resist pen; I
have used one with mixed results, but it is better than the Radio
Shack resist pen (which is just a Sanford "Sharpie"). Anyway, I wonder
if ink from the Lumocolor would work in an inkjet? According to the
above information Lumocolor do not sell that ink (though someone was
going to try to find it in Germany) so you would have to extract it
from a Lumocolor pen.

In any event, thanks for all your work on this project.

Grant

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, stefan_trethan@g... wrote:
> hi to all..
>
> this moment i finished my inkjet printing experiments.
> for all who aren't familiar with the topic:
>
> the target was to use acrylic floor polish in a inkjet printer
cartridge and
> print it as a resist directly to the pcb surface.
>
> anyways... i think it was worth a try.
>
> regards
> stefan

hi

i have tried this with the plotter.

i do disagree with the guys saying it will work with the staedtler 313 or
318 red.
the line with, especially the continuity of the with over the whole line
lenght is not suficcient.
the edges get awful (even if you stabilize the pen to stop wobbling when
speeding up).

i also can't agree with them saying the ink is not sold seperately.
here in austria i got it simply at the store.
it is red ohp marker refill from staedtler, it is expensive.
it has a special "docking" port on the lid to put in the pen.
then it sucks up the ink through the tip.

the new staedtler ink is "dry proof" they give you 12 days (or hours?) to
leave your pens open (if you forget to put the lid on) and they still work.
but still it is a good resist.


the staedtler lumocolor red ink actually sold is a VERY GOOD RESIST for HCL
H2O2 etch.
even not the edding 3000 which once was sold as "resist standard pen" in
"draw it by hand" days is so good.


i also did the plotting:

i have a hp7475a pen plotter standing besides me.
i have bought carbide tip pens (0,18mm X grooved, 2 x 0,25mm, and a lot of
wider ones).
i bought them from ebay for cheap.
that are only "replacement tips" to screw in a reuseable pen.
but they contain anything (the small needle in the middle, the spring etc)
and they can be put in a homebrew holder.
if you put in the staedtler ink with a syringe from the top a few drops
easily last for a pcb.



THE PROBLEM WITH PLOTTING:
I simply can't get a good hpgl file which makes what i want.
Best i get is a file where the pads and tracks are correct but the drill
holes are not kept open.
i can only get that from my orcad pcb software.
so using ready layouts from the web or for friends who use other software is
impossible.

what i would need is a programme which can convert pcl or post script to
hpgl(1).
i didn't fine one that works.

it is no good to convert raster images to hpgl, i know no tool which makes
that good looking.


floor polish in plotter pen would work, also standard water based laquer
(which would give you bright color to see on pcb).
but i have staedtler ink and it is fine.

if you can make a solution of colophonium which is stable (and doesn't allow
the colophonium to settle down a thick sticky film on the bottom) you can
plot with colophonium to the pcb.
it is a good resist (tested in HCL H2O2) and a good flux as you know.
what you would get:
a pcb which can be soldered immediately after drilling, no flux removing.
also it can be left on it to protect against oxygen.
i can't manage to get colophonium to be so stable, i solved in ethanol. this
vaporizes and leaves the sticky colophonium clogging all.
i would REALLY APPRECIATE if any chemist may have a try on this, it can't be
too hard to find a solvent which is better.
(anyone knowing much about synthetic resin should also be able to make
colophonium a ink)


so you see, i have the most things..
that plotting would work fine but the software for hpgl1 is a mess.

anyone having eagle here and wanting to try plotting?
someone here (sorry for forgetting the name) was so kind to provide me with
a eagle plot file a time ago. (thanks again). it looked good, the drill holes
were clear also, but it was complicated (a lot of unnecessary lines).


but i would love to stay with orcad..... so i didn't try myself much using
eagle.




so i think you have some lines to read here, i forgot a lot of course.
please ask if you want to know more, i really tried the plotting also a
while (and it is my favourite now)..


regards
stefan

> Hi Stefan-
>
> I followed your work on this project with interest. I hoped it would
> work, but I agree with you completely that it was worth the effort.
>
> I have heard that there are "drafting pens" which used to be used on
> plotters. Has anyone tried one of those with floor polish?
> Incidentally there is a PCB resist ink made by Staedtler (see website
> below) but it needs a tungsten-carbide pen point to work.
>
> There is a summary (survey?)of a debate and experimentation with
> various pens (and some conflicting opinion) at:
>
> http://eeshop.unl.edu/pen.txt
>
> The Lumocolor 313 is commonly mentioned as a good PCB resist pen; I
> have used one with mixed results, but it is better than the Radio
> Shack resist pen (which is just a Sanford "Sharpie"). Anyway, I wonder
> if ink from the Lumocolor would work in an inkjet? According to the
> above information Lumocolor do not sell that ink (though someone was
> going to try to find it in Germany) so you would have to extract it
> >from a Lumocolor pen.
>
> In any event, thanks for all your work on this project.
>
> Grant
>

--
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> what i would need is a programme which can convert pcl or post script to
> hpgl(1).
> i didn't fine one that works.
>

Hi Stefan,
Try the link below for a free program to convert postscript to hpgl.
http://www.mathworks.com/support/ftp/toolsv4.shtml
scroll down the page to ps2hpgl to get the download you need.

Hope this helps!

-Mike

thanks mike..

but this is unix software, my linux is not running now (because of hd
problems).
also i really don't know it it would work for that purpose.
if you have linux running, maybe you or anyone else may try?

regards
stefan

> > what i would need is a programme which can convert pcl or post script to
> > hpgl(1).
> > i didn't fine one that works.
> >
> Hi Stefan,
> Try the link below for a free program to convert postscript to hpgl.
> http://www.mathworks.com/support/ftp/toolsv4.shtml
> scroll down the page to ps2hpgl to get the download you need.
>
> Hope this helps!
>
> -Mike
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

--
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Bitte lächeln! Fotogalerie online mit GMX ohne eigene Homepage!

> if you have linux running, maybe you or anyone else may try?
>

Stefan,
Sorry, I am not runnning linux or unix so I cannot try out the program.
Perhaps someone knows of a link for a windows HPGL converter?
-Mike

since your a win guy, you can run cygwin and get all the neato gnu/linux
stuff working on windows. It is a posix emulation layer for
win9x/2k/xp/nt. It includes an xserver and even kde (though you need a
very fast computer to run it without pulling out your hair!)
check it out at http://www.cygwin.com/

On Wed, 2003-06-04 at 19:36, Mike Putnam wrote:
> > if you have linux running, maybe you or anyone else may try?
> >
>
> Stefan,
> Sorry, I am not runnning linux or unix so I cannot try out the program.
> Perhaps someone knows of a link for a windows HPGL converter?
> -Mike
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Hi Stefan-

I was wondering about why your experiment failed. Some acrylic floor
floor polishes have a particle size of 185 nano meters. Some inkjet
print heads can handle particles of 750 nano meters diameter. So I
wonder what made the print heads clog? I guess that particle density
and ink viscosity might be related variables.

Does anyone know an inkjet printhead engineer/ink chemist?

Grant

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, stefan_trethan@g... wrote:
> hi to all..
>
> this moment i finished my inkjet printing experiments.
> for all who aren't familiar with the topic:
>
> the target was to use acrylic floor polish in a inkjet printer
cartridge and
> print it as a resist directly to the pcb surface.
>
> i tried the hp400 and hp51626a cartridges.
>
> i had several used of them, all were clogged a bit.
> in one i finally made a "access hole" to get the metal filter out and
> inspect the head, and apply solvent to it directly.
> i got it not to operate with all jets, some are still disfunctional.
> but it makes always a print with more than the half of them, making text
> good readable.
>
> with time i really got sick about trying to clean them up further
(this is
> not easy).
>
> so i decided it is time to put floor polish in the one working
partially.
>
> i put polish in, colored with some ink, not a single drop of it ever got
> through the head.
> i put the cartridge in and from the beginning id was like glued clogged.
>
>
> believe me, all was right, (pressure, ink actually at the head).
>
> it simply is not working and i don't want to experiment further.
>
>
> i'm wondering if anybody ever got this really to work and if yes i'm
> wondering which head he used, and which polish, and if undiluted or not.
>

On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 01:13:15 -0000, grantfair2001 <grant.fair@...>
wrote:

> Hi Stefan-
>
> I was wondering about why your experiment failed. Some acrylic floor
> floor polishes have a particle size of 185 nano meters. Some inkjet
> print heads can handle particles of 750 nano meters diameter. So I
> wonder what made the print heads clog? I guess that particle density
> and ink viscosity might be related variables.
>
> Does anyone know an inkjet printhead engineer/ink chemist?
>
> Grant
>

i think you are right.
also a problem may be that the head i used was a thermal bubble jet.
this may be the problem because it heats the ink up in the nozzle and this
may help in clogging it up.

if you remember i also inspected these heads. behind each nozzle i could
find two "electrodes" only seperated a small distance.
they were both in the pipe through the head material (silicone?), located
just under the golden cover foil.

i could not see any "resistor" element in there. so i had the following
idea:
hp may use the ink as a "resistor". i know this would have some
disadvantages but also some advantages:
the ink kinds being useful reduced ("buy hp").
if there is no ink in there, if it is clogged before the head it will dry
up and heat no more.

i have no idea if this is true. if anyone has the right optical tools he
might inspect a dead head closer by himself.


i gave up so sudden because of the following:

if only one single jet is clogged you get a gap all overthe tracks on the
pcb, and this every 5mm or so.
i didn't like this idea.


but the head worked with water, and as i put in the polish not one drop
came through the head anymore.
maybe i try again if i get a really cheap piezo inkjet.


regards
stefan

Stefan - here is some basic info on printhead design, for what it is
worth.

https://www.inkzone.com/resource/ptech.cfm

I am wodering if the heat in your print head acted as a catalyst and
the polymers cross linked. That would make a "clog" I think.

A chemist friend who develops plastics for Dupont thought that the
potassium permanganate you probably used acted as a catalyst and
triggered cross-linking. I will ask him about the heat theory, too,
when I get a chance.

Grant

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:

>
> On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 01:13:15 -0000, grantfair2001 <grant.fair@s...>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Stefan-
> >
> > I was wondering about why your experiment failed. Some acrylic floor
> > floor polishes have a particle size of 185 nano meters. Some inkjet
> > print heads can handle particles of 750 nano meters diameter. So I
> > wonder what made the print heads clog? I guess that particle density
> > and ink viscosity might be related variables.
> >
> > Does anyone know an inkjet printhead engineer/ink chemist?
> >
> > Grant
> >
>
> i think you are right.
> also a problem may be that the head i used was a thermal bubble jet.
> this may be the problem because it heats the ink up in the nozzle

and this

> may help in clogging it up.
>
> if you remember i also inspected these heads. behind each nozzle i

could

> find two "electrodes" only seperated a small distance.
> they were both in the pipe through the head material (silicone?),

located

> just under the golden cover foil.
>
> i could not see any "resistor" element in there. so i had the following
> idea:
> hp may use the ink as a "resistor". i know this would have some
> disadvantages but also some advantages:
> the ink kinds being useful reduced ("buy hp").
> if there is no ink in there, if it is clogged before the head it

will dry

> up and heat no more.
>
> i have no idea if this is true. if anyone has the right optical

tools he

> might inspect a dead head closer by himself.
>
>
> i gave up so sudden because of the following:
>
> if only one single jet is clogged you get a gap all overthe tracks

on the

> pcb, and this every 5mm or so.
> i didn't like this idea.
>
>
> but the head worked with water, and as i put in the polish not one drop
> came through the head anymore.
> maybe i try again if i get a really cheap piezo inkjet.
>
>
> regards
> stefan

thats funny....

exactly this page i read some hours ago and thought it might be worth
posting it here.
but then i forgot...

this is also the reason why i asked for xaar heads.
they write it is in the Xerox Xpress which is a large format printer i
think.
so i wondered if there are also other printers with ths head (xerox or
others.).

the 300dpi is not too much, but the advantage would be that higher
resolution heads may clog more easily.


something in the hp head caused it not to work.
i think it is a bad idea at all to try this with a thermal inkjet.
but i didn't spend too much for this project and if i can get myself to
reassemble the second printer
i tried (after killing the hp550c) i will also still have one inkjet if i
ever need.

i had a quick look at ebay and there are still lots of inkjets.
but i don't want to buy some epson model if i can get maybe a better one
(maybe xaar head).

i also really like the plotting method. this closed drill holes in the pads
i still hate but i think
i can live with it (if i have a good drill press it will work also with no
center - punch).
no there is not much incentive to try the inkjet printing again (i will
leave that for you guys out there and then
buy exactly the right printer which you have figured out).

i look forward to reading of the first positive results.


by the way, there is a proxxon circular saw at ebay, the guy sayd 3 blades
included. i asked which blades.
he sayd one of them carbide (full material).
it auction is at 30eur now.
if it doesn't get much above 60eur i will buy it. so no further ambitions
to build my own one.


regards
stefan


On Sun, 22 Jun 2003 15:46:10 -0000, grantfair2001 <grant.fair@...>
wrote:

> Stefan - here is some basic info on printhead design, for what it is
> worth.
>
> https://www.inkzone.com/resource/ptech.cfm
>
> I am wodering if the heat in your print head acted as a catalyst and
> the polymers cross linked. That would make a "clog" I think.
>
> A chemist friend who develops plastics for Dupont thought that the
> potassium permanganate you probably used acted as a catalyst and
> triggered cross-linking. I will ask him about the heat theory, too,
> when I get a chance.
>
> Grant
>

Hi


I only want to tell you 1 kilo 35% H2O2 costs 4eur and some cent here.
if anyone wants to regenerate his cucl bath "fast".

i assumed it much more expensive but today i had some spare time and went
to a shop for chemicals.
they also didn't ask any questions (somebody sayd there are problems
sometimes).

see no reason for running a bubbler and long time regeneration plus longer
etching times.


i also bought methylorange, 100ml solution 11eur... will last for a
lifetime.


regards
stefan

Very good explanation of the difference between piezo and
thermal/bubblejet. However, despite the website describing thermal
heads as temporary, part of the ink cartridge, and short-lived, I've
used two Canon BJC 610 inkjet printers for quite a few prints without
ever replacing the heads, sold one and the other finally did clog
badly but it was so old by then that I bought another printer rather
than put herculean effort or pay $12.95 for a new head. Then a Canon
BJC 5000 that clogged badly enough to require replacement about every
6 ink replacements. Now a Canon BJC 6000 that I've used quite a bit
but has never (knock on wood, ow my head!) yet needed a new print head.

With Stefan's experience and your's and others observations, I am
going to see if I can pick up a working Epson inkjet since they are
Piezo. Loads of Epson 600's in the thrift stores here lately, but they
don't have a straight through paper path. Are there any Epson inkjets
that have a rear feed slot and a straight paper path?

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "grantfair2001"
<grant.fair@s...> wrote:

> Stefan - here is some basic info on printhead design, for what it is
> worth.
>
> https://www.inkzone.com/resource/ptech.cfm
>
> I am wodering if the heat in your print head acted as a catalyst and
> the polymers cross linked. That would make a "clog" I think.
>
> A chemist friend who develops plastics for Dupont thought that the
> potassium permanganate you probably used acted as a catalyst and
> triggered cross-linking. I will ask him about the heat theory, too,
> when I get a chance.
>
> Grant
>

don't look too much for a rear input slot.
if you can get the head to work good on paper/ohp tansparency with the
"special" ink you
have won.
there is a always some way to modify it to accept pcbs.
you can cut out a straight path and then use a big pcb as "desk" plate. on
this you mount the actual pcb to be printed on.
it might be too difficult to get it accept lots of different pcb sizes.

the hp i have with rear input slot would need a lot of modification too.
because it is only built to accept thin media like envelopes.

also the height of the print head is very important.
make this adjustable.
the one hp i have has a lever which pivots a excentric beared rod which
supports the head assembly.
it is for setting it to "paper" or "envelope".

maybe something of this kind is needed.

regards
stefan

On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 16:26:18 -0000, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:

> Very good explanation of the difference between piezo and
> thermal/bubblejet. However, despite the website describing thermal
> heads as temporary, part of the ink cartridge, and short-lived, I've
> used two Canon BJC 610 inkjet printers for quite a few prints without
> ever replacing the heads, sold one and the other finally did clog
> badly but it was so old by then that I bought another printer rather
> than put herculean effort or pay $12.95 for a new head. Then a Canon
> BJC 5000 that clogged badly enough to require replacement about every
> 6 ink replacements. Now a Canon BJC 6000 that I've used quite a bit
> but has never (knock on wood, ow my head!) yet needed a new print head.
>
> With Stefan's experience and your's and others observations, I am
> going to see if I can pick up a working Epson inkjet since they are
> Piezo. Loads of Epson 600's in the thrift stores here lately, but they
> don't have a straight through paper path. Are there any Epson inkjets
> that have a rear feed slot and a straight paper path?
>
> Steve Greenfield
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "grantfair2001"
> <grant.fair@s...> wrote:
>> Stefan - here is some basic info on printhead design, for what it is
>> worth.
>>
>> https://www.inkzone.com/resource/ptech.cfm
>>
>> I am wodering if the heat in your print head acted as a catalyst and
>> the polymers cross linked. That would make a "clog" I think.
>>
>> A chemist friend who develops plastics for Dupont thought that the
>> potassium permanganate you probably used acted as a catalyst and
>> triggered cross-linking. I will ask him about the heat theory, too,
>> when I get a chance.
>>
>> Grant
>>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

On 23 Jun 2003, at 16:26, Steve wrote:

> used two Canon BJC 610 inkjet printers for quite a few prints without
> ever replacing the heads, sold one and the other finally did clog
> badly but it was so old by then that I bought another printer rather
> than put herculean effort or pay $12.95 for a new head. Then a Canon

I have several Canon inkjets that need new heads. Can you give me
a vector to those folks who sell 610 heads for 12.95?? I was only
able to find one source for 610 & 6000 heads, but the price was
_way_ more than a new printer!! Sure would like to get those
puppies back in action again...........

Thanks,
johnd

John_Dumas@...
Linux_Rules@...

At 09:26 AM 23/06/03, you wrote:

>Very good explanation of the difference between piezo and
>thermal/bubblejet. However, despite the website describing thermal
>heads as temporary, part of the ink cartridge, and short-lived, I've
>used two Canon BJC 610 inkjet printers for quite a few prints without
>ever replacing the heads, sold one and the other finally did clog
>badly but it was so old by then that I bought another printer rather
>than put herculean effort or pay $12.95 for a new head. Then a Canon
>BJC 5000 that clogged badly enough to require replacement about every
>6 ink replacements. Now a Canon BJC 6000 that I've used quite a bit
>but has never (knock on wood, ow my head!) yet needed a new print head.
>
>With Stefan's experience and your's and others observations, I am
>going to see if I can pick up a working Epson inkjet since they are
>Piezo. Loads of Epson 600's in the thrift stores here lately, but they
>don't have a straight through paper path. Are there any Epson inkjets
>that have a rear feed slot and a straight paper path?
>
>Steve Greenfield

Steve no need to replace the heads when they clog. Just use household
white vinegar and lintless paper towels. The vinegar very quickly cuts through
old dry ink. You can usually get the head clean by "flossing" the head with
a section of paper towel rolled then soaked in vinegar. I've salvaged quite
a few
printers this way when they were dumped on my door.

Only bad thing is that your printer smells like a pickle or a day or so....

Dave

really interesting how this all fits together...
i did not exactly know what vinegar is chemicaly of.
i did not know any bacteria is able to "digest" alcohol.
nice to learn things with the help of google..

.. I'm wondering why vinegar works so good on ink...
does it work better than the alcohol it was before?
you may get some more concentrated (and purer) vinegar acid if you need...

being a chemist sure would be an interesting job, to know al this things
exactly...

ok, i really hope you get something to work...

regards
stefan

On Tue, 24 Jun 2003 11:05:55 -0700, Dave King <KingDWS@...> wrote:

> At 09:26 AM 23/06/03, you wrote:
>> Very good explanation of the difference between piezo and
>> thermal/bubblejet. However, despite the website describing thermal
>> heads as temporary, part of the ink cartridge, and short-lived, I've
>> used two Canon BJC 610 inkjet printers for quite a few prints without
>> ever replacing the heads, sold one and the other finally did clog
>> badly but it was so old by then that I bought another printer rather
>> than put herculean effort or pay $12.95 for a new head. Then a Canon
>> BJC 5000 that clogged badly enough to require replacement about every
>> 6 ink replacements. Now a Canon BJC 6000 that I've used quite a bit
>> but has never (knock on wood, ow my head!) yet needed a new print head.
>>
>> With Stefan's experience and your's and others observations, I am
>> going to see if I can pick up a working Epson inkjet since they are
>> Piezo. Loads of Epson 600's in the thrift stores here lately, but they
>> don't have a straight through paper path. Are there any Epson inkjets
>> that have a rear feed slot and a straight paper path?
>>
>> Steve Greenfield
>
> Steve no need to replace the heads when they clog. Just use household
> white vinegar and lintless paper towels. The vinegar very quickly cuts
> through
> old dry ink. You can usually get the head clean by "flossing" the head
> with
> a section of paper towel rolled then soaked in vinegar. I've salvaged
> quite a few
> printers this way when they were dumped on my door.
>
> Only bad thing is that your printer smells like a pickle or a day or
> so....
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

At 01:42 PM 24/06/03, you wrote:

>really interesting how this all fits together...
>i did not exactly know what vinegar is chemicaly of.

vinegar is also called acetic acid. Fairly mild as fair as acids go.

>i did not know any bacteria is able to "digest" alcohol.
>nice to learn things with the help of google..

Much easier to find people to digest alcohol ;-]
Alcohols are just long chain sugars so there are things
that can eat it but the stronger it is the fewer organisms
there are that tolerate it.

>.. I'm wondering why vinegar works so good on ink...
>does it work better than the alcohol it was before?
>you may get some more concentrated (and purer) vinegar acid if you need...

To give you an idea of how well it cuts the old ink, you can literally scrub
a print head with 70 or 99% isopropyl alcohol and have the towels come
away clean. Then just take the vinegar soaked towel and do it again and
it will come away soaked in ink. Never had to buy any vinegar other than
plain old white household vinegar.

The printer I have at home is an Epson 880 and about once a year it gets
"flossed"
and the print quality difference is just amazing.

>being a chemist sure would be an interesting job, to know al this things
>exactly...

Not a chemist, was told about this from an old typewriter repair guy and tired
it on a inkjet.

if it wiggles its biology, if it stinks its chemistry and if it doesn't
work its physics...

Dave

Dave King wrote:

>
> vinegar is also called acetic acid. Fairly mild as fair as acids go.

yea, common kitchen distilled white vinegar is about %5 acetic
acid, but must also contain small amounts of other compounds,
because it smells a bit different than pure 5% acetic acid.
You may of noticed the smell of pure acetic acid from uncured
silicone sealant.

>>.. I'm wondering why vinegar works so good on ink...
>>does it work better than the alcohol it was before?
>>you may get some more concentrated (and purer) vinegar acid if you need...
>
>
> To give you an idea of how well it cuts the old ink, you can literally scrub
> a print head with 70 or 99% isopropyl alcohol and have the towels come
> away clean. Then just take the vinegar soaked towel and do it again and
> it will come away soaked in ink. Never had to buy any vinegar other than
> plain old white household vinegar.
>

Inkjet inks are water soluble so it only makes sense to use an
aqueous solution for cleaning. Acidic acid would make the ink
acidic, which drops the pH and may alter viscosity of some inks.
Acetic acid is also a good solvent for many compounds.
All inkjet inks are different and acetic acid may solubilize some
inks better than others.

Here is a little info on inkjet inks.

http://www.imaging.org/resources/leinkjet/part4.cfm

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Linux_Rules@E... wrote:

> On 23 Jun 2003, at 16:26, Steve wrote:
>
>
> > used two Canon BJC 610 inkjet printers for quite a few prints without
> > ever replacing the heads, sold one and the other finally did clog
> > badly but it was so old by then that I bought another printer rather
> > than put herculean effort or pay $12.95 for a new head. Then a Canon

> I have several Canon inkjets that need new heads. Can you give me
> a vector to those folks who sell 610 heads for 12.95?? I was only
> able to find one source for 610 & 6000 heads, but the price was
> _way_ more than a new printer!! Sure would like to get those
> puppies back in action again...........

That was the price that Canon quoted me, that was quite a few years
ago too. 6000 heads are more but not more than a new printer, unless
you are comparing them to the price of one of those crappie Lexmarks
that sold for $30 or less.

Last I checked, it was something like $40 or $50 each for new
printheads and ink for printheads for the 6000.

Steve Greenfield

Oooh.. looks like -if- Epson printers are able to print Future floor
polish, an Epson 1520 may be the way to go.

There is a company selling the Epson 1520, renamed the Mediaprinter
5000, and repriced from $400 (current price from Epson) to $800! The
"value added"? A caddy that holds 6 inkjet printable CD/DVDs. It was
speculated on another list that the printer may have been modified to
fit the thickness, but I just looked on Epson's site and in supported
paper/media they listed Memorex Inkjet Printable CDRs, and that is for
an unmodified 1520.

So it sounds like the Epson 1520 will at least take thinner PCB. I
think a CD is thinner that 1/16 inch PCB, but you can get thinner
stuff. Unfortunately, unlike other inkjets the heads are not swappable
so it'd have to be dedicated to this one thing. However, you can still
get Epson 1520's from Epson or on eBay.

And if this works, you can print just over 13x21 inches!

As for registration of the print, look at the Mediaprinter 5000:
http://www.gsmediasystems.com/printers-5000.html

Note that the CD carrier has holes that fit the tractor feed on the
1520. So either make a carrier to hold the board, or drill holes in
the edge of the board. Easy enough to make a jig to get the holes
right and the same each time.

Now I have to find a dirt cheap Epson to try this in first.

Steve Greenfield

i do not understand this.
i was aware that there are inkjet printers on the market which can print to
cds.
but how does this ensure you that it takes floor polish?
the thickness is no problem at all, you can always figure out some more or
less complicated modification to get it taking pcbs, also standard 1.5mm
material.

i do not like the thought to sacrifice material thickness...
the mechanical stability of this "very thin" .5 mm stuff is not the best i
think.
also the 1mm i have suffers severe problems of deforming due to tension of
the copper tracks on one side (if you hot tin them for example.).

but i see no problem to use 1.5mm material.
for first tests, maybe it will be good to use thin material, to avoid
wasting
worktime on modifying it only to see it doesn't work.

please don't be fixed so much on the "will it eat the pcbs" issue.
your problem is the head, and to get IT ti eat the polish / special ink
resist.

what i fear most:
the image of an inkjet is a couple of "dots".
what if you can't get it to make the dots connected to each other on the
pcb surface?
what if you don't get an even surface with no holes in it?
maybe baking may help but i don't think so.
this is my concern, not that mechanical feed stuff, that you can fix with
enough time...

i have lots of exams these days, no time to experiment.
but next week i will try vinegar on the hp (only to see it changes nothing
;-)) and use strong water diluted polish,
and maybe, if there is one at ebay for VERY cheap i also may get a piezo
inkjet.

okay, i hope you finally get a epson for next to nothing and you can start
experimenting soon.

another question:
how is it with epson / canon, have they piezo heads on all (most) of their
printers?
how is it with lexmark?
i know i can check this easily model by model sold at ebay with google but
it would
be easier if there are no thermal epson/canon.
do you think it may be better to find a more "simple" printing head rather
than a complicated?
i mean color is not really needed and 2000x2000 dpi also not.
my fear is this newer "high tec" heads my be harder to persuade to work
with polish?
any comments on this appreciated...


regards
stefan

On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 16:03:59 -0000, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:

> Oooh.. looks like -if-Epson printers are able to print Future floor
> polish, an Epson 1520 may be the way to go.
>
> There is a company selling the Epson 1520, renamed the Mediaprinter
> 5000, and repriced from $400 (current price from Epson) to $800! The
> "value added"? A caddy that holds 6 inkjet printable CD/DVDs. It was
> speculated on another list that the printer may have been modified to
> fit the thickness, but I just looked on Epson's site and in supported
> paper/media they listed Memorex Inkjet Printable CDRs, and that is for
> an unmodified 1520.
>
> So it sounds like the Epson 1520 will at least take thinner PCB. I
> think a CD is thinner that 1/16 inch PCB, but you can get thinner
> stuff. Unfortunately, unlike other inkjets the heads are not swappable
> so it'd have to be dedicated to this one thing. However, you can still
> get Epson 1520's from Epson or on eBay.
>
> And if this works, you can print just over 13x21 inches!
>
> As for registration of the print, look at the Mediaprinter 5000:
> http://www.gsmediasystems.com/printers-5000.html
>
> Note that the CD carrier has holes that fit the tractor feed on the
> 1520. So either make a carrier to hold the board, or drill holes in
> the edge of the board. Easy enough to make a jig to get the holes
> right and the same each time.
>
> Now I have to find a dirt cheap Epson to try this in first.
>
> Steve Greenfield
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>