Homebrew PCBs

Is there some simple but professional plans to build an etchant tank? I 
mean with heater and agitation, not just a jar and manual labor:) Or is 
one available that is professional but not too pricey? I seen one for 
$50 and I bookmarked it. http://www.web-tronics.com/lowcosetsysw.html  
Is that worth the $$ or could I make something with aquarium parts 
(heater, pump, etc). I was also planning on using ferric chloride as I 
have a bottle from RatShack from when I started getting interested in 
this some years ago. I know there are other etchants and comments are 
welcome on whats best but I think other than the staining and inability 
to see your boards progress, ferric chloride is probably as good as the 
others??

Thanks,
Dave

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007, Dave wrote:

> Is there some simple but professional plans to build an etchant tank? I
> mean with heater and agitation, not just a jar and manual labor:)

I've found a plastic food-style container and manual agitation works fine.
All I do is full a large outer tank with hot water, and float the ferric
chloride container in the hot water. This also allows me to give the board
a quick dunk in the water to see how its progressing. Etching times are
pretty damned quick.

> (heater, pump, etc). I was also planning on using ferric chloride as I
> have a bottle from RatShack from when I started getting interested in
> this some years ago. I know there are other etchants and comments are
> welcome on whats best but I think other than the staining and inability
> to see your boards progress, ferric chloride is probably as good as the
> others??

I've not used other chemicals, so I can't comment on them, but ferric
chloride is less nasty than most, and it lasts a long time. I'm still
using a 250ml batch I made up in January, and I've done loads of boards in
it (some double sided 6in by 4in boards). I do tend to put a large "copper
pour" area (just drag a polygon over the design once I've finished it) or
ground planes, which reduces the amount of copper that must be removed.
(Although on the flip side, I also tin my boards so I go through more
tinning solution!)

Someone told me that a bit of table salt can help rejuvinate ferric
chloride, too. I did add some when I thought the solution was getting
tired.

Dylan Smith wrote:
 >
 > On Fri, 23 Nov 2007, Dave wrote:
 >
 > > Is there some simple but professional plans to build an etchant tank? I
 > > mean with heater and agitation, not just a jar and manual labor:)
 >
 > I've found a plastic food-style container and manual agitation works 
fine.
 > All I do is full a large outer tank with hot water, and float the ferric
 > chloride container in the hot water. This also allows me to give the 
board
 > a quick dunk in the water to see how its progressing. Etching times are
 > pretty damned quick.
 >
 > > (heater, pump, etc). I was also planning on using ferric chloride as I
 > > have a bottle from RatShack from when I started getting interested in
 > > this some years ago. I know there are other etchants and comments are
 > > welcome on whats best but I think other than the staining and inability
 > > to see your boards progress, ferric chloride is probably as good as the
 > > others??
 >
 > I've not used other chemicals, so I can't comment on them, but ferric
 > chloride is less nasty than most, and it lasts a long time. I'm still
 > using a 250ml batch I made up in January, and I've done loads of 
boards in
 > it (some double sided 6in by 4in boards). I do tend to put a large 
"copper
 > pour" area (just drag a polygon over the design once I've finished it) or
 > ground planes, which reduces the amount of copper that must be removed.
 > (Although on the flip side, I also tin my boards so I go through more
 > tinning solution!)
 >
 > Someone told me that a bit of table salt can help rejuvinate ferric
 > chloride, too. I did add some when I thought the solution was getting
 > tired.

Dylan,
  Good info. I was originally going to scheme up some type of agitator 
like a see-saw or wobble device and use a plastic tupperware type 
container. A small geared timer motor with a cam or something like that. 
I was also wondering how long ferric chloride lasts but now I know it 
lasts a while and is reusable. I started buying small parts and books 
and solder and etchant and boards years ago but never got the time to 
actually get anything done. I got as far as getting some photo paper and 
a laser printer and ironed a test onto a board but never etched it. Now 
I want to play with small simple circuits but also useful ones. I have 
an interest in alternative energy (just not enough $$ to invest yet) so 
I am going to play with small stuff for now....
Thanks,
Dave


>  ,_._,___

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 09:32:03 -0600, you wrote:

>Is there some simple but professional plans to build an etchant tank? I 
>mean with heater and agitation, not just a jar and manual labor:) Or is 
>one available that is professional but not too pricey? I seen one for 
>$50 and I bookmarked it. http://www.web-tronics.com/lowcosetsysw.html  
>Is that worth the $$ or could I make something with aquarium parts 
>(heater, pump, etc). I was also planning on using ferric chloride as I 
>have a bottle from RatShack from when I started getting interested in 
>this some years ago. I know there are other etchants and comments are 
>welcome on whats best but I think other than the staining and inability 
>to see your boards progress, ferric chloride is probably as good as the 
>others??

Walmart has a bread container that's inexpensive and makes a good
container for etchant.  An air pump with aquarium hose makes a good
bubbler.

You can use an aquarium heater, but you want the one that has a knob
on top that does not have stops.  You need to be able to turn this up
to broil setting for fish, mostly because the normal ones are limited
to 80 degrees F.

Harvey

>
>Thanks,
>Dave

Dave wrote:
> Is there some simple but professional plans to build an etchant tank? I 
> mean with heater and agitation, not just a jar and manual labor:)

1) Buy one of those Tupperware-style cereal containers - the big tall 
two-or-three litre things.
2) Glue a pair of 4" x 1" chunks of plastic (Perspex, Plexiglass, whatever's 
lying around) onto the bottom on either side -- one 4x1 on the left, one on 
the right. This should help stabilise the tank.
3) Buy an air pump, bubbler hose and fish tank heater from your local pet shop.
4) Glue the hose into the bottom of the tank - use something fairly inert and 
heat resistant. Araldite works a treat, 5-minute epoxy is slightly better 
(slightly stronger and more time to work with it before it sets).
5) Glue the heater support clip onto one side of the tank, then mount the heater.
6) Fill the tank about three-quarters full of water. Fire up the bubbler and 
the heater. Leave it like this for a while to get any glue residue out. Drain 
and repeat.
7) Fill the tank about three-quarters full of etchant. Fire up the heater 
about 20 minutes before you need the tank, and turn on the bubbler once the 
etchant is warm.
8) Drop your board in the tank. Wait for it to etch, then pluck it out. I 
usually drill a hole in the corner of the board and thread some insulated wire 
through it, then lift the board out by the wire.

Probably not the best way to do it, but it works for me!

I've got some photos of the thing if anyone's interested.

-- 
Phil.                         |  (\_/)  This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny
ygroups@...         | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain
http://www.philpem.me.uk/     | (")_(") world domination.

Dave,

Just my 2\ufffd, but that web-tronics offer seems fairly good to me. Not only 
is it a molded tank (and as such definately never leaking), but made for 
the purpose including hangers pump etc. I mean, even if you put your own 
etching system together, you are likely to spend a similar amout of 
money let alone the time you need to get the different parts etc.

The reason I see why one makes his own tank could be lead and delivery 
time to get said tank though :-) I also made my own tanks over time, but 
I must say I'm really impressed by this offer.

Again, just my 2\ufffd here....

Markus

Dave schrieb:

>
> Is there some simple but professional plans to build an etchant tank? I
> mean with heater and agitation, not just a jar and manual labor:) Or is
> one available that is professional but not too pricey? I seen one for
> $50 and I bookmarked it. http://www.web-tronics.com/lowcosetsysw.html 
> <http://www.web-tronics.com/lowcosetsysw.html>
> Is that worth the $$ or could I make something with aquarium parts
> (heater, pump, etc). I was also planning on using ferric chloride as I
> have a bottle from RatShack from when I started getting interested in
> this some years ago. I know there are other etchants and comments are
> welcome on whats best but I think other than the staining and inability
> to see your boards progress, ferric chloride is probably as good as the
> others??
>
> Thanks,
> Dave
>
>

I have this tank with the glass heater which I found broke one day, I was 
wondering what would have happened if I had turned it on with 120V, is the 
acid conductive enough that it blows up, is it a safety concern? I have been 
looking for the shatter proof heaters which can go that high a temperature 
and cheap...

My 2C on building your own avoid gluing and build the tank it is not worth 
the trouble, imagine the damage if it leaks, try to use a solid container. I 
use a bigger secondary container too I had a spill once a small one when I 
tripped over the tank it was a terrible mess, and it never gets 100% clean.


Kim



----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Philip Pemberton" <ygroups@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 11:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Etching tank, build or buy?


> Dave wrote:
>> Is there some simple but professional plans to build an etchant tank? I
>> mean with heater and agitation, not just a jar and manual labor:)
>
> 1) Buy one of those Tupperware-style cereal containers - the big tall
> two-or-three litre things.
> 2) Glue a pair of 4" x 1" chunks of plastic (Perspex, Plexiglass, 
> whatever's
> lying around) onto the bottom on either side -- one 4x1 on the left, one 
> on
> the right. This should help stabilise the tank.
> 3) Buy an air pump, bubbler hose and fish tank heater from your local pet 
> shop.
> 4) Glue the hose into the bottom of the tank - use something fairly inert 
> and
> heat resistant. Araldite works a treat, 5-minute epoxy is slightly better
> (slightly stronger and more time to work with it before it sets).
> 5) Glue the heater support clip onto one side of the tank, then mount the 
> heater.
> 6) Fill the tank about three-quarters full of water. Fire up the bubbler 
> and
> the heater. Leave it like this for a while to get any glue residue out. 
> Drain
> and repeat.
> 7) Fill the tank about three-quarters full of etchant. Fire up the heater
> about 20 minutes before you need the tank, and turn on the bubbler once 
> the
> etchant is warm.
> 8) Drop your board in the tank. Wait for it to etch, then pluck it out. I
> usually drill a hole in the corner of the board and thread some insulated 
> wire
> through it, then lift the board out by the wire.
>
> Probably not the best way to do it, but it works for me!
>
> I've got some photos of the thing if anyone's interested.
>
> -- 
> Phil.                         |  (\_/)  This is Bunny. Copy and paste 
> Bunny
> ygroups@...         | (='.'=) into your signature to help him 
> gain
> http://www.philpem.me.uk/     | (")_(") world domination.
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and 
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Those tanks are actually molded from two peices and
glued together.  I have had several over the years.

Some HAVE leaked at the glue seam.  Now I am using
an acid based etchant the latest tank I have is
developing crazing and slow leaks in the walls.

I do store it ALL in a large HDPE box though so
leaks are not catastrphic.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Markus Zingg <homebrew-
pcb@...> wrote:
>
> Dave,
> 
> Just my 2¢, but that web-tronics offer seems fairly good to me. 
Not only 
> is it a molded tank (and as such definately never leaking), but 
made for 
> the purpose including hangers pump etc. I mean, even if you put 
your own 
> etching system together, you are likely to spend a similar amout 
of 
> money let alone the time you need to get the different parts etc.
> 
> The reason I see why one makes his own tank could be lead and 
delivery 
> time to get said tank though :-) I also made my own tanks over 
time, but 
> I must say I'm really impressed by this offer.
> 
> Again, just my 2¢ here....
> 
> Markus
> 
> Dave schrieb:
> >
> > Is there some simple but professional plans to build an etchant 
tank? I
> > mean with heater and agitation, not just a jar and manual 
labor:) Or is
> > one available that is professional but not too pricey? I seen 
one for
> > $50 and I bookmarked it. http://www.web-tronics.com/
lowcosetsysw.html 
> > <http://www.web-tronics.com/lowcosetsysw.html>
> > Is that worth the $$ or could I make something with aquarium 
parts
> > (heater, pump, etc). I was also planning on using ferric 
chloride as I
> > have a bottle from RatShack from when I started getting 
interested in
> > this some years ago. I know there are other etchants and 
comments are
> > welcome on whats best but I think other than the staining and 
inability
> > to see your boards progress, ferric chloride is probably as good 
as the

> > others??
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Dave
> >
> >
>

The last place I worked at used to have a tank made of glass glued with
silicone. This technique is very common on fish tanks and they seldom
leak. Unfortunately after a couple of years the acid weakened the
silicone. One night it collapsed, dumping at least a gallon of etchant
on the floor. The room below now has a big yellow/brown stain on the
ceiling that no amount of paint will cover up.

Les

Andrew wrote:

> Those tanks are actually molded from two peices and
> glued together.  I have had several over the years.
>
> Some HAVE leaked at the glue seam.  Now I am using
> an acid based etchant the latest tank I have is
> developing crazing and slow leaks in the walls.
>
> I do store it ALL in a large HDPE box though so
> leaks are not catastrphic.
>
>

Harvey White wrote:
 >
 >
 >
 > Walmart has a bread container that's inexpensive and makes a good
 > container for etchant. An air pump with aquarium hose makes a good
 > bubbler.
 >
 > You can use an aquarium heater, but you want the one that has a knob
 > on top that does not have stops. You need to be able to turn this up
 > to broil setting for fish, mostly because the normal ones are limited
 > to 80 degrees F.
 >
 > Harvey
 
Thanks Harvey for the added info.
Dave
> ._,___

Philip Pemberton wrote:
 >
 > Dave wrote:
 > > Is there some simple but professional plans to build an etchant tank? I
 > > mean with heater and agitation, not just a jar and manual labor:)
 >
 > 1) Buy one of those Tupperware-style cereal containers - the big tall
 > two-or-three litre things.
 > 2) Glue a pair of 4" x 1" chunks of plastic (Perspex, Plexiglass, 
whatever's
 > lying around) onto the bottom on either side -- one 4x1 on the left, 
one on
 > the right. This should help stabilise the tank.
 > 3) Buy an air pump, bubbler hose and fish tank heater from your local 
pet shop.
 > 4) Glue the hose into the bottom of the tank - use something fairly 
inert and
 > heat resistant. Araldite works a treat, 5-minute epoxy is slightly better
 > (slightly stronger and more time to work with it before it sets).
 > 5) Glue the heater support clip onto one side of the tank, then mount 
the heater.
 > 6) Fill the tank about three-quarters full of water. Fire up the 
bubbler and
 > the heater. Leave it like this for a while to get any glue residue 
out. Drain
 > and repeat.
 > 7) Fill the tank about three-quarters full of etchant. Fire up the heater
 > about 20 minutes before you need the tank, and turn on the bubbler 
once the
 > etchant is warm.
 > 8) Drop your board in the tank. Wait for it to etch, then pluck it out. I
 > usually drill a hole in the corner of the board and thread some 
insulated wire
 > through it, then lift the board out by the wire.
 >
 > Probably not the best way to do it, but it works for me!
 >
 > I've got some photos of the thing if anyone's interested.
 >
 > --
 > Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny
 > ygroups@... | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain
 > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination.
 > 


Phil, I would like to see a picture of this contraption :)
Thanks,
Dave

Leslie Newell wrote:
 >
 > The last place I worked at used to have a tank made of glass glued with
 > silicone. This technique is very common on fish tanks and they seldom
 > leak. Unfortunately after a couple of years the acid weakened the
 > silicone. One night it collapsed, dumping at least a gallon of etchant
 > on the floor. The room below now has a big yellow/brown stain on the
 > ceiling that no amount of paint will cover up.
 >
 > Les
 >
 > Andrew wrote:
 > > Those tanks are actually molded from two peices and
 > > glued together. I have had several over the years.
 > >
 > > Some HAVE leaked at the glue seam. Now I am using
 > > an acid based etchant the latest tank I have is
 > > developing crazing and slow leaks in the walls.
 > >
 > > I do store it ALL in a large HDPE box though so
 > > leaks are not catastrphic.
 > >

Glad to know this as I was thinking about the home made custom aquarium 
tank.
Thanks,
Dave

Andrew wrote:
 >
 > Those tanks are actually molded from two peices and
 > glued together. I have had several over the years.
 >
 > Some HAVE leaked at the glue seam. Now I am using
 > an acid based etchant the latest tank I have is
 > developing crazing and slow leaks in the walls.
 >
 > I do store it ALL in a large HDPE box though so
 > leaks are not catastrphic.
 >

I am thinking make it out of one-piece plastic and go with mechanical 
agitation. No leak worries.
Thanks,
Dave

Kim Vellore wrote:
 >
 > I have this tank with the glass heater which I found broke one day, I was
 > wondering what would have happened if I had turned it on with 120V, 
is the
 > acid conductive enough that it blows up, is it a safety concern? I 
have been
 > looking for the shatter proof heaters which can go that high a 
temperature
 > and cheap...
 >
 > My 2C on building your own avoid gluing and build the tank it is not 
worth
 > the trouble, imagine the damage if it leaks, try to use a solid 
container. I
 > use a bigger secondary container too I had a spill once a small one 
when I
 > tripped over the tank it was a terrible mess, and it never gets 100% 
clean.
 >
 > Kim

I am thinking no-glue with tupperware or something similar. Don't know 
that I ever had a fish tank heater break before. Is this common?
Thanks,
Dave

Markus Zingg wrote:
 >
 > Dave,
 >
 > Just my 2\ufffd, but that web-tronics offer seems fairly good to me. Not only
 > is it a molded tank (and as such definately never leaking), but made for
 > the purpose including hangers pump etc. I mean, even if you put your own
 > etching system together, you are likely to spend a similar amout of
 > money let alone the time you need to get the different parts etc.
 >
 > The reason I see why one makes his own tank could be lead and delivery
 > time to get said tank though :-) I also made my own tanks over time, but
 > I must say I'm really impressed by this offer.
 >
 > Again, just my 2\ufffd here....
 >
 > Markus

Markus,
  If they lasted without leaking (as someone else noted) then it would 
be a great deal. If they end up leaking, or the possibility is there, 
then I may as well just make one. Besides, thats part of the fun. I will 
get to scheme up a mechanical agitator. :)
Thanks,
Dave

Dave,

The pictures (and description) in the link you gave made the impression 
to me that the tank is molded as one piece. If now - acording to the 
experience others obviousely have made this turns out not to be true - 
you are IMHO right that its similar to doing your own then. If you also 
get the air pump heater etc. for just $49 I still think it's a very good 
offer but hearing that the tank is not made of one single piece is a 
bummer....

Anyways, I do my tanks using polystyrene glass sheets that I cut into 
the shape I need using a fine circular table saw and "glue" them 
together. I use Methylenchloride as the glue and this chemically welds 
the parts together. So this is not really the same as glueing in the 
traditional sense. In fact, the this way chemically welded parts are so 
strong that if you mechanically try to break such an area, it usually 
breaks elsewhere. The key here is that if you cut the sheets into shape 
you use a fine saw so as the areas which are glued together are even 
with no unregularities or such. The nice part about the polystyrene 
glass is that you can see the "glued" area all through the material like 
if you would X-ray it if it were a different material and as such you 
can optically check if it will hold forever or if there are areas where 
it did not worked out well.

Obviousely, for a pure etching tank, using a redy made available 
container is not wrong. I must admitt that the tanks I do are for the 
trough plating station where space is  constrained and where bigger 
tanks mean spending partially lots of money more for pricey chemistry 
just because the tank is not optimally sized. For the first incarnation 
of the tanks about four years ago, I welded the plastic using a hot air 
gun because I too was afraid of leakage back then. Now with the 
experience of using Methylenchloride I definately don't want to go back 
to this hassle.

Btw, I always fill the tanks of my machines only for relatively short 
periodes of time. I don't care leaving the fluids in there for a couple 
of weeks if I'm in a phase where I do a couple of PCBs in a row but once 
this phase is over, I always fill the fluids back into containers that 
can be air sealed and which are made of one piece of plastics (Sorry, 
don't know the propper term for them cause english is not my native 
language, but I hope you know what I mean). I do so to avoid loss of the 
partially pricey stuff (it otherwise vaporizes over time) and also for 
security reasons. There are cheap (about 1$ a piece) hand pumps 
available in flower/gardening stores which are excellent tools to fill 
such fluids back and forth withouth ever spoiling a single drop.

Markus

Dave schrieb:

>
>
> Markus Zingg wrote:
> >
> > Dave,
> >
> > Just my 2\ufffd, but that web-tronics offer seems fairly good to me. Not only
> > is it a molded tank (and as such definately never leaking), but made for
> > the purpose including hangers pump etc. I mean, even if you put your own
> > etching system together, you are likely to spend a similar amout of
> > money let alone the time you need to get the different parts etc.
> >
> > The reason I see why one makes his own tank could be lead and delivery
> > time to get said tank though :-) I also made my own tanks over time, but
> > I must say I'm really impressed by this offer.
> >
> > Again, just my 2\ufffd here....
> >
> > Markus
>
> Markus,
> If they lasted without leaking (as someone else noted) then it would
> be a great deal. If they end up leaking, or the possibility is there,
> then I may as well just make one. Besides, thats part of the fun. I will
> get to scheme up a mechanical agitator. :)
> Thanks,
> Dave
>
>

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 15:17:28 -0600, you wrote:

You're welcome.  Some stuff on PC boards at www.dragonworks.info in
the PC board section.

Harvey

>Harvey White wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Walmart has a bread container that's inexpensive and makes a good
> > container for etchant. An air pump with aquarium hose makes a good
> > bubbler.
> >
> > You can use an aquarium heater, but you want the one that has a knob
> > on top that does not have stops. You need to be able to turn this up
> > to broil setting for fish, mostly because the normal ones are limited
> > to 80 degrees F.
> >
> > Harvey
> 
>Thanks Harvey for the added info.
>Dave
>> ._,___

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 15:32:04 -0600, you wrote:

I have a commercial tank, GBC, I think.  I would not buy it again.

It has:

1) fitting lid

2) no heater (supply your own)

3) solid plastic molded everything

4) bottom molded plastic holder with bubbler tube

5) threaded nylon rod to pull out the holder and tubes

PROBLEMS:

1) holds a lot of etchant

2) rod broke at the bottom, stress, etchant, whatever

3) not a good seal at the top

4) holds 1 1/4 gallons of etchant.

Making my own holder from some fiberglass/nylon rod and making a
bubbler tube by drilling cheap fish tank tubing works well.

Bread container from WalMart seals better than commercial tank with
tubing holes....

Bread container needs less etchant

CONS:  Bread container will etch only one board at a time if the board
is large enough (say 5x7).

Harvey

>
>Markus Zingg wrote:
> >
> > Dave,
> >
> > Just my 2\ufffd, but that web-tronics offer seems fairly good to me. Not only
> > is it a molded tank (and as such definately never leaking), but made for
> > the purpose including hangers pump etc. I mean, even if you put your own
> > etching system together, you are likely to spend a similar amout of
> > money let alone the time you need to get the different parts etc.
> >
> > The reason I see why one makes his own tank could be lead and delivery
> > time to get said tank though :-) I also made my own tanks over time, but
> > I must say I'm really impressed by this offer.
> >
> > Again, just my 2\ufffd here....
> >
> > Markus
>
>Markus,
>  If they lasted without leaking (as someone else noted) then it would 
>be a great deal. If they end up leaking, or the possibility is there, 
>then I may as well just make one. Besides, thats part of the fun. I will 
>get to scheme up a mechanical agitator. :)
>Thanks,
>Dave

Harvey White wrote:
 >
 > On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 15:17:28 -0600, you wrote:
 >
 > You're welcome. Some stuff on PC boards at www.dragonworks.info in
 > the PC board section.
 >
 > Harvey

Nice informative website. It looks like I have a lot of catching up to do :)
Thanks,
Dave

Markus Zingg wrote:
 >
 > Dave,
 >
 > The pictures (and description) in the link you gave made the impression
 > to me that the tank is molded as one piece. If now - acording to the
 > experience others obviousely have made this turns out not to be true -
 > you are IMHO right that its similar to doing your own then. If you also
 > get the air pump heater etc. for just $49 I still think it's a very good
 > offer but hearing that the tank is not made of one single piece is a
 > bummer....
 >
 > Anyways, I do my tanks using polystyrene glass sheets that I cut into
 > the shape I need using a fine circular table saw and "glue" them
 > together. I use Methylenchloride as the glue and this chemically welds
 > the parts together. So this is not really the same as glueing in the
 > traditional sense. In fact, the this way chemically welded parts are so
 > strong that if you mechanically try to break such an area, it usually
 > breaks elsewhere. The key here is that if you cut the sheets into shape
 > you use a fine saw so as the areas which are glued together are even
 > with no unregularities or such. The nice part about the polystyrene
 > glass is that you can see the "glued" area all through the material like
 > if you would X-ray it if it were a different material and as such you
 > can optically check if it will hold forever or if there are areas where
 > it did not worked out well.
 >
 > Obviousely, for a pure etching tank, using a redy made available
 > container is not wrong. I must admitt that the tanks I do are for the
 > trough plating station where space is constrained and where bigger
 > tanks mean spending partially lots of money more for pricey chemistry
 > just because the tank is not optimally sized. For the first incarnation
 > of the tanks about four years ago, I welded the plastic using a hot air
 > gun because I too was afraid of leakage back then. Now with the
 > experience of using Methylenchloride I definately don't want to go back
 > to this hassle.
 >
 > Btw, I always fill the tanks of my machines only for relatively short
 > periodes of time. I don't care leaving the fluids in there for a couple
 > of weeks if I'm in a phase where I do a couple of PCBs in a row but once
 > this phase is over, I always fill the fluids back into containers that
 > can be air sealed and which are made of one piece of plastics (Sorry,
 > don't know the propper term for them cause english is not my native
 > language, but I hope you know what I mean). I do so to avoid loss of the
 > partially pricey stuff (it otherwise vaporizes over time) and also for
 > security reasons. There are cheap (about 1$ a piece) hand pumps
 > available in flower/gardening stores which are excellent tools to fill
 > such fluids back and forth withouth ever spoiling a single drop.
 >
 > Markus

Markus,
 Thanks for the follow up info. Its all good. I have seen other people 
use a similar, if not the same method gluing plastic like plexiglass 
into molds (boxes) and it produces excellent results. As you said, the 
key here is to be able to cut accurately so the chemical can weld the 
plastic together. Usually easier said then done unless you have the 
correct tools. I have a workshop and some wood working tools so maybe 
some day I will try it. :) I think the term you were looking for when 
sealing the bottles is "vacuum sealed" maybe? I like all the ideas so 
far and this seems to be a friendly group. Just remember, I am a 
beginner so even though the ideas are great, I may have to start with 
simple ideas and methods until I get going...
:)
Thanks,
Dave

Harvey White wrote:
 >
 > On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 15:32:04 -0600, you wrote:
 >
 > I have a commercial tank, GBC, I think. I would not buy it again.
 >
 > It has:
 >
 > 1) fitting lid
 >
 > 2) no heater (supply your own)
 >
 > 3) solid plastic molded everything
 >
 > 4) bottom molded plastic holder with bubbler tube
 >
 > 5) threaded nylon rod to pull out the holder and tubes
 >
 > PROBLEMS:
 >
 > 1) holds a lot of etchant
 >
 > 2) rod broke at the bottom, stress, etchant, whatever
 >
 > 3) not a good seal at the top
 >
 > 4) holds 1 1/4 gallons of etchant.
 >
 > Making my own holder from some fiberglass/nylon rod and making a
 > bubbler tube by drilling cheap fish tank tubing works well.
 >
 > Bread container from WalMart seals better than commercial tank with
 > tubing holes....
 >
 > Bread container needs less etchant
 >
 > CONS: Bread container will etch only one board at a time if the board
 > is large enough (say 5x7).
 >
 > Harvey

Harvey,
  Your website is great. I have been reading and finding answers to some 
of my other questions as well. Of course it will be 30 years before I 
catch up but I will take what info I can absorb for now :)
Cheers,
Dave

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 20:08:33 -0600, you wrote:

You're welcome.  Feel free to email with questions.

Harvey

>
>Harvey White wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 15:17:28 -0600, you wrote:
> >
> > You're welcome. Some stuff on PC boards at www.dragonworks.info in
> > the PC board section.
> >
> > Harvey
>
>Nice informative website. It looks like I have a lot of catching up to do :)
>Thanks,
>Dave

Harvey White <madyn@...> writes:
> You're welcome.  Feel free to email with questions.

I have one.  What about fumes?  I was thinking of switching to
HCl/H2O2 (because it can be regenerated) but I worry about the
chlorine fumes, as I'd be doing it in my basement, which also contains
my woodworking equipment and some computers.  (it's too cold to do it
outside).

On 23 Nov 2007 23:46:02 -0500, you wrote:

>
>Harvey White <madyn@...> writes:
>> You're welcome.  Feel free to email with questions.
>
>I have one.  What about fumes?  I was thinking of switching to
>HCl/H2O2 (because it can be regenerated) but I worry about the
>chlorine fumes, as I'd be doing it in my basement, which also contains
>my woodworking equipment and some computers.  (it's too cold to do it
>outside).

The fumes from FeCl3 corrode metal for several feet around.  I think
that the HCL mixture will be worse, and that's just the acid.  I'd not
do any etching inside at all, I'd do it outside, even though it's
cold.  You'll want to warm the etchant anyway, and a fish tank heater
can do that.

I'm not happy about the chlorine myself, which has stopped me from
experimenting with the HCL mixture.  I am pretty much completely out
of F3Cl3, though, so if I want to make any more boards, I need to etch
with the HCL mixture.  Herbach & Rademan no longer sells the gallons
of FeCl3 that I had been buying.

I'll be etching way away from the cars and any machinery.


Harvey

> DJ Delorie wrote:
>
> I have one.  What about fumes?  I was
> thinking of switching to HCl/H2O2
> (because it can be regenerated) but I
> worry about the chlorine fumes, as
> I'd be doing it in my basement, which
> also contains my woodworking equipment
> and some computers.  (it's too cold to
> do it outside).

Try going straight to CuCl as it does
etch better edges than HCl-H2O2.  Also
there should be less vapour.

I would not recomend either in a close
space with your other equipment though.

Either get some venting to outside just
for the tank or try get some kind of
air scrubbing happening.  Else you WILL
have rust quickly forming on everything.

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007, Dave wrote:

> I want to play with small simple circuits but also useful ones. I have
> an interest in alternative energy (just not enough $$ to invest yet) so
> I am going to play with small stuff for now....

Actually, that's what got me going. A while ago, I wanted to get various
garden electrics going (night lights, pond pump etc.) and I was going to
have to get an electrician to lay all the cables, connect it all up etc.

So I thought - for that money, I could get a 2nd hand solar panel off an
ebayer that'd power it. I thought it would be a fun project.

Then I needed to make the night lights automatic, and having meddled a
little with electronics when I was about 17, I thought it shouldn't be too
hard. So I bought a couple of voltage comparator ICs, a few passives,
patch wires, breadboard, strip board etc.

... and got addicted.

... within a year of that little project, I had designed and built my own
8 bit computer. Now I'm making my own 2 sided PCBs for very fine pitch SMD
(0.4mm pitch LQFP-80, for adding ethernet to the aforementioned Z80
computer). Indeed, I can now make a PCB faster for surface mount (fewer
holes to drill) and hand solder many SMD components faster than I can
through hole (1206 and 0603 passives are very fast, no wires to clip! SOIC
is a doddle, as easy as DIL but without the holes to drill. SSOP is
rather slower though). A future project is to build a reflow toaster oven.

So beware. You, too, may find yourself drawn to the inevitability of
homebrewing your own computer!

> Actually, that's what got me going. A while ago, I wanted to get various
> garden electrics going (night lights, pond pump etc.) and I was going to
> have to get an electrician to lay all the cables, connect it all up etc.
>
> So I thought - for that money, I could get a 2nd hand solar panel off an
> ebayer that'd power it. I thought it would be a fun project.
>
> Then I needed to make the night lights automatic, and having meddled a
> little with electronics when I was about 17, I thought it shouldn't be too
> hard. So I bought a couple of voltage comparator ICs, a few passives,
> patch wires, breadboard, strip board etc.
>
> ... and got addicted.
>
> ... within a year of that little project, I had designed and built my own
> 8 bit computer. Now I'm making my own 2 sided PCBs for very fine pitch SMD
> (0.4mm pitch LQFP-80, for adding ethernet to the aforementioned Z80
> computer). Indeed, I can now make a PCB faster for surface mount (fewer
> holes to drill) and hand solder many SMD components faster than I can
> through hole (1206 and 0603 passives are very fast, no wires to clip! SOIC
> is a doddle, as easy as DIL but without the holes to drill. SSOP is
> rather slower though). A future project is to build a reflow toaster oven.
>
> So beware. You, too, may find yourself drawn to the inevitability of
> homebrewing your own computer!

I was looking on my old pc's to see what PCB software I used when I 
first got interested but got to the Win98 box and it wasn't there so it 
must be on the Win95 box! So I guess its been about 10 years since I 
attempted this hobby but had no time. I am going to have to learn a 
bunch of new terminology as I am not too familiar with SMD (surface 
mount device) technology although it looks rather cool. Special 
equipment like hot air and tweezers etc but I will be going the old 
fashioned route for now :) I used to be into Commodore computers so I 
know the 8-bit technology rather well, in fact I still have a bunch of 
Commodore stuff. I used to run a BBS with hard drives (SCSI) connected 
on a C64! I have some learning to do in the electronics department too. 
I have lots of books though but am mainly familiar with simple 
components. I am totally aware though that one could get carried away 
with this stuff as its very interesting. So how did the solar panel 
project end up working? All DC with battery storage or more panels and 
more batteries and an inverter?
Thanks,
Dave
>

Harvey White wrote:
 >
 > On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 20:08:33 -0600, you wrote:
 >
 > You're welcome. Feel free to email with questions.
 >
 > Harvey

Thanks. I will probably take you up on that once I get some qualified 
questions. I will ask my beginner questions here to start so I don't 
wear out my welcome.
:)
Dave

>
> _._,___
>

Harvey, Eagle CAD Notes (under electronics) brings up the Making PC 
Boards page. I tried to email at the site but it bounced. :(
Thanks,
Dave

Harvey White wrote:

>
> On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 20:08:33 -0600, you wrote:
>
> You're welcome. Feel free to email with questions.
>
> Harvey
>
> >
>
> .
>
>

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 14:16:53 -0600, you wrote:

>Harvey, Eagle CAD Notes (under electronics) brings up the Making PC 
>Boards page. I tried to email at the site but it bounced. :(
>Thanks,
>Dave

OK, no problem.  I'll fix the link as well as look at the email...

http://www.dragonworks.info/Electronics/making%20PC%20boards/pc_board_design.htm

That's the direct link.

Although the subjects are similar....

Harvey

>
>Harvey White wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 20:08:33 -0600, you wrote:
>>
>> You're welcome. Feel free to email with questions.
>>
>> Harvey
>>
>> >
>>
>> .
>>
>>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Dave <theschemer@...> wrote:
>
> Is there some simple but professional plans to build an etchant 
tank? I 
> mean with heater and agitation, not just a jar and manual labor:) 
Or is 
> one available that is professional but not too pricey? I seen one 
for 
> $50 and I bookmarked it. http://www.web-
tronics.com/lowcosetsysw.html  
> Is that worth the $$ or could I make something with aquarium parts 
> (heater, pump, etc). I was also planning on using ferric chloride 
as I 
> have a bottle from RatShack from when I started getting interested 
in 
> this some years ago. I know there are other etchants and comments 
are 
> welcome on whats best but I think other than the staining and 
inability 
> to see your boards progress, ferric chloride is probably as good as 
the 
> others??
> 
> Thanks,
> Dave
>


It has been my experience that bubblers and other agitation methods 
are not worth the hassle. The generally make it difficult to contain 
the etchant (leaks, spray, etc...) and require more echant be used 
than is really necessary. 

Floating the board on the surface of hot echant is almost as 
effective as the bubbles anyway. The removed material falls away as 
it etches clearing the way for fresh etchant to be applied to the 
next layer.

I would suggest a simple system of a metal pan of hot water on a 
stove or hot plate with a shallow plastic pan of echant in it. Pour 
in a little echant, just enough, then  float the board and check on 
it until you can see through from the top. For double sided, do one 
side at a time and tape the side on the top.

>
> It has been my experience that bubblers and other agitation methods
> are not worth the hassle. The generally make it difficult to contain
> the etchant (leaks, spray, etc...) and require more echant be used
> than is really necessary.
>
> Floating the board on the surface of hot echant is almost as
> effective as the bubbles anyway. The removed material falls away as
> it etches clearing the way for fresh etchant to be applied to the
> next layer.
>
> I would suggest a simple system of a metal pan of hot water on a
> stove or hot plate with a shallow plastic pan of echant in it. Pour
> in a little echant, just enough, then float the board and check on
> it until you can see through from the top. For double sided, do one
> side at a time and tape the side on the top.

Simple is good. Is it necessary to heat all etchants or just ferric 
chloride?
Thanks,
Dave

>
> >
>
>
> ,_._,___

Harvey White wrote:
 >
 > On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 14:16:53 -0600, you wrote:
 >
 > >Harvey, Eagle CAD Notes (under electronics) brings up the Making PC
 > >Boards page. I tried to email at the site but it bounced. :(
 > >Thanks,
 > >Dave
 >
 > OK, no problem. I'll fix the link as well as look at the email...
 >
 > 
http://www.dragonworks.info/Electronics/making%20PC%20boards/pc_board_design.htm
 >
 > That's the direct link.
 >
 > Although the subjects are similar....
 >
 > Harvey

Thanks Harvey. I have the error messages etc from the bounced mail if it 
helps you resolve the problem. Let me know if you want me to post it 
here or send it to you. It says something about inactivity and also has 
a phone number to contact support.
Dave

> > I would suggest a simple system of a metal pan of hot water on a
> > stove or hot plate with a shallow plastic pan of echant in it. 

If your using HCL and H202 Use only a plastic or rubber container. No
metals!

I use 1 part HCL and 3 parts H202 in cold weather and 1 part HCL and 4
parts H202 in warm weather. Not nessecery to heat the solution.

For a 6X6" PCB or smaller I have a tupperware square container about
10" square and cover the pcb with about 1/2 to 3/4' of a inch of etchant.

I found that I you gently pry up one side of the PCB with a plastic
fork or knife so that it is lifted up out of the etchant back and
forth the removal will go faster. About five minutes to etch a 6x6" board\


Dennis Waggoner

Errrr............

I don't think you want to use metal around Ferric
Chloride! Unless it is a high grade stainless steel.

Roland F. Harriston, P.D.

Dennis Waggoner wrote:

>
> > > I would suggest a simple system of a metal pan of hot water on a
> > > stove or hot plate with a shallow plastic pan of echant in it.
>
> If your using HCL and H202 Use only a plastic or rubber container. No
> metals!
>
> I use 1 part HCL and 3 parts H202 in cold weather and 1 part HCL and 4
> parts H202 in warm weather. Not nessecery to heat the solution.
>
> For a 6X6" PCB or smaller I have a tupperware square container about
> 10" square and cover the pcb with about 1/2 to 3/4' of a inch of etchant.
>
> I found that I you gently pry up one side of the PCB with a plastic
> fork or knife so that it is lifted up out of the etchant back and
> forth the removal will go faster. About five minutes to etch a 6x6" board\
>
> Dennis Waggoner
>
>

Dennis Waggoner wrote:
 >
 > If your using HCL and H202 Use only a plastic or rubber container. No
 > metals!
 >
 > I use 1 part HCL and 3 parts H202 in cold weather and 1 part HCL and 4
 > parts H202 in warm weather. Not nessecery to heat the solution.
 >
 > For a 6X6" PCB or smaller I have a tupperware square container about
 > 10" square and cover the pcb with about 1/2 to 3/4' of a inch of etchant.
 >
 > I found that I you gently pry up one side of the PCB with a plastic
 > fork or knife so that it is lifted up out of the etchant back and
 > forth the removal will go faster. About five minutes to etch a 6x6" 
board\
 >
 > Dennis Waggoner

Thanks for the added info. I like the part about "no heat" necessary.
Dave

Roland F. Harriston wrote:
>
> Errrr............
>
> I don't think you want to use metal around Ferric
> Chloride! Unless it is a high grade stainless steel.
>
> Roland F. Harriston, P.D.
>
> I think James said to put the metal outer pan of water with a plastic 
> container inside of it like a double boiler. Dennis said to use rubber 
> or plastic.
>










Dave :)

>
>

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 09:03:07 -0600, you wrote:

>
>Harvey White wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 14:16:53 -0600, you wrote:
> >
> > >Harvey, Eagle CAD Notes (under electronics) brings up the Making PC
> > >Boards page. I tried to email at the site but it bounced. :(
> > >Thanks,
> > >Dave
> >
> > OK, no problem. I'll fix the link as well as look at the email...
> >
> > 
>http://www.dragonworks.info/Electronics/making%20PC%20boards/pc_board_design.htm
> >
> > That's the direct link.
> >
> > Although the subjects are similar....
> >
> > Harvey
>

Yeah, I'd be interested in seeing that message.  Depends on the email
address what the problem is, though.

Thanks

Harvey

>Thanks Harvey. I have the error messages etc from the bounced mail if it 
>helps you resolve the problem. Let me know if you want me to post it 
>here or send it to you. It says something about inactivity and also has 
>a phone number to contact support.
>Dave

Repeat..............

Don't use metals around Ferric Chloride.........period.

Roland F. Harriston, P.D.
*********************
I think James said to put the metal outer pan of water with a plastic

 > container inside of it like a double boiler. Dennis said to use rubber
 > or plastic.
 >

> Yeah, I'd be interested in seeing that message. Depends on the email
> address what the problem is, though.
>
> Thanks
>
> Harvey

Ok, sent you the info to the "madyn" address.
Dave

>
>
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Roland F. Harriston"
<rolohar@...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Repeat..............
> 
> Don't use metals around Ferric Chloride.........period.
> 
Please let me clarify the HCL and H202

HCL is standard Muriatic Acid (aprox 33%)availible at walmart $4.00/gal
H202 is 3% about a dollar per quart also at walmart the kind used to
treat cuts

I might add neither are temperature sensitive. I store both in a
outside garage with extremes of temperature both summer and winter.
Just make sure you dont store the HCL near anything metal because some
fumes will leak out and corrode it.

Water dilutes the acid and I alway have a full 5 gallon bucket of
water near me when I etch. After the etching is completed I carefully
remove the pcb and rinse it in the bucket. Then I just dump the
etchant into the five gallon bucket. This makes the disposal easier as
the solution is then only mildly acidic.

Be carefull dont get your eyes anywhere close to the etchant.

Dennis Waggoner

Roland F. Harriston wrote:
 >
 >
 >
 > Repeat..............
 >
 > Don't use metals around Ferric Chloride.........period.
 >
 > Roland F. Harriston, P.D.
 > *********************

Serious question. How far is the minimum safe distance from metals where 
ferric chloride can affect them? I mean just the fumes and not a direct 
spill or slash. Does the Muriatic-Hydrogen Peroxide require the same 
rule exactly or is ferric chloride the worst one?
Thanks,
Dave

Dennis Waggoner wrote:
 >
 > Please let me clarify the HCL and H202
 >
 > HCL is standard Muriatic Acid (aprox 33%)availible at walmart $4.00/gal
 > H202 is 3% about a dollar per quart also at walmart the kind used to
 > treat cuts
 >
 > I might add neither are temperature sensitive. I store both in a
 > outside garage with extremes of temperature both summer and winter.
 > Just make sure you dont store the HCL near anything metal because some
 > fumes will leak out and corrode it.
 >
 > Water dilutes the acid and I alway have a full 5 gallon bucket of
 > water near me when I etch. After the etching is completed I carefully
 > remove the pcb and rinse it in the bucket. Then I just dump the
 > etchant into the five gallon bucket. This makes the disposal easier as
 > the solution is then only mildly acidic.
 >
 > Be carefull dont get your eyes anywhere close to the etchant.
 >
 > Dennis Waggoner


Dennis, So in the unmixed form is the muriatic acid going to corrode by 
fumes leaking or only when mixed with the hydrogen peroxide? I have a 
steel building and need to know how far from the walls I need to store 
it so I don't mess it up.
Thanks,
Dave

>
>
>
> _
> _,_._,___

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 10:14:55 -0600, you wrote:

>Roland F. Harriston wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Repeat..............
> >
> > Don't use metals around Ferric Chloride.........period.
> >
> > Roland F. Harriston, P.D.
> > *********************
>
>Serious question. How far is the minimum safe distance from metals where 
>ferric chloride can affect them? I mean just the fumes and not a direct 
>spill or slash. Does the Muriatic-Hydrogen Peroxide require the same 
>rule exactly or is ferric chloride the worst one?

Ferric Chloride, my experience is about 3-4 feet to be safe.

Harvey


>Thanks,
>Dave

> Dennis, So in the unmixed form is the muriatic acid going to corrode by 
> fumes leaking or only when mixed with the hydrogen peroxide? I have a 
> steel building and need to know how far from the walls I need to store 
> it so I don't mess it up.
> Thanks,
> Dave
> >
> >
> >
> > _
> > _,_._,___
>

When its mixed with 3%H2O2 it is even less concentrated. The
combination of both generates less fumes. I usually etch outside and
you dont even notice the fumes. When you store Muratic Acid. If the
lid is not tight fumes will leak out and corrode any metal withing a
foot or so. That is the only percaution you need to take storing.

When mixing be very carefull not to splatter the mixture into you
eyes. Pour the acid into the h2o2 not the h2o2 into the acid. That is
the most dangerous part of the operation and there are some very
noxious fumes generarated at this point. One again keep you eyes away
from the mixture. Use goggle would be the best bet when mixing. And
also if you are manually agitating the pcb up and done in the etchand
to speed the process again you can generate spatters so watch you eyes
here also.

Dennis Waggoner

Dennis Waggoner wrote:
 >
 > When its mixed with 3%H2O2 it is even less concentrated. The
 > combination of both generates less fumes. I usually etch outside and
 > you dont even notice the fumes. When you store Muratic Acid. If the
 > lid is not tight fumes will leak out and corrode any metal withing a
 > foot or so. That is the only percaution you need to take storing.
 >
 > When mixing be very carefull not to splatter the mixture into you
 > eyes. Pour the acid into the h2o2 not the h2o2 into the acid. That is
 > the most dangerous part of the operation and there are some very
 > noxious fumes generarated at this point. One again keep you eyes away
 > from the mixture. Use goggle would be the best bet when mixing. And
 > also if you are manually agitating the pcb up and done in the etchand
 > to speed the process again you can generate spatters so watch you eyes
 > here also.
 >
 > Dennis Waggoner

Dennis,
Thanks for the info. I have used NaOH (sodium hydroxide) for making soap 
so I always added that to the water so I understand the reason. I also 
have full face safety shields so I am good there too.
Dave
> _,___

Harvey White wrote:
 >
 > Ferric Chloride, my experience is about 3-4 feet to be safe.
 >
 > Harvey

Ok, sounds reasonable. I guess in its original sealed plastic bottle it 
is fairly harmless? I had mine under the kitchen sink for years. Radio 
Shack 16oz bottle.
Thanks,
Dave

>
>
>
> ._,___

Dave:

I personally think that Ferric Chloride is one of the worst compounds to
have around in a domestic environment, or in any environment that is
not specifically designed to accommodate this material. Most of the
technical descriptions that I have seen regarding this material
describe it as "highly corrosive". It emits fumes even at normal room
temperature.

Muriatic+Peroxide is also corrosive, but not as bad as Ferric Chloride.
Employ measures to protect.

Roland F. Harriston, P.D.
**********************
Dave wrote:

>
> Roland F. Harriston wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Repeat...... ........
> >
> > Don't use metals around Ferric Chloride.... .....period.
> >
> > Roland F. Harriston, P.D.
> > ************ *********
>
> Serious question. How far is the minimum safe distance from metals where
> ferric chloride can affect them? I mean just the fumes and not a direct
> spill or slash. Does the Muriatic-Hydrogen Peroxide require the same
> rule exactly or is ferric chloride the worst one?
> Thanks,
> Dave
>

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 11:28:13 -0600, you wrote:

>Harvey White wrote:
> >
> > Ferric Chloride, my experience is about 3-4 feet to be safe.
> >
> > Harvey
>
>Ok, sounds reasonable. I guess in its original sealed plastic bottle it 
>is fairly harmless? I had mine under the kitchen sink for years. Radio 

If the bottle has a relatively narrow mouth, and the cap is tight, I
think you're ok for most stuff.  I'd put it in a plastic ziplock bag
(freezer type, heavy duty) as an additional precaution.

Just being paranoid.

Harvey

>Shack 16oz bottle.
>Thanks,
>Dave
>
>>
>>
>>
>> ._,___

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007, Roland F. Harriston wrote:

> I personally think that Ferric Chloride is one of the worst compounds to
> have around in a domestic environment, or in any environment that is
> not specifically designed to accommodate this material.

In my opinion, they are all pretty nasty, and ferric chloride is the least
nasty of a nasty lot... after all, hydrochloric acid is one of the harmful
products of mustard gas (a WWI chemical weapon). The EPA classes HCl as a
toxin, and at concentrations above 25% it's highly corrosive.

Ferric chloride is nasty stuff, but at least you notice small spills of it
straight away because of its distinctive colour, where a spill of HCl
won't necessarily be recognised as such until bad stuff starts to happen.

I keep the ferric chloride out of the house, in a container in a stone
built shed. Less nasty stuff I keep in those 'bellows style' photographic
chemical bottles, which I think are excellent to have around (fill them
with liquid, then push them down to eliminate as much air as possible, and
they have good chemical resistant, gas tight caps). I try to do as much
etching as possible outside (if it's cold and nasty I will do it inside,
but with plenty of absorbent material under the etching area to try and
catch any splashes/spills).

Dylan Smith:

Well.................

Out in my neck of the woods, it is quite common to see 2 or 4 gallons of
Muriatic in the pool shed or in the garage of many homes. I personally
keep a bottle of Hydrogen Peroxide in the medicine cabinets in my home.
And right now, I have two gallons of Muriatic acid in a wooden storage
cabinet in my garage, right next to my two automobiles, and have had so
for going on 11 years now.

I can't ever recall of a single incident regarding these materials 
during the
time I have lived in southern California and southern Arizona, and that
amounts to over 40 years. You have to remember that the HCI that we
call Muriatic acid only 30 Baume, and the H2O2 is only a 3% solution.

To each his own. But I pleased that I don't have to have that nasty
brown stuff around the house anymore.

Roland F. Harriston, P.D.

"Dennis Waggoner" <wagelec@...> writes:
> Use goggle would be the best bet when mixing.

The first time I read this, I thought "he spelled Google wrong".
Sigh.

Roland F. Harriston wrote:
> Dave:
> 
> I personally think that Ferric Chloride is one of the worst compounds to
> have around in a domestic environment, or in any environment that is
> not specifically designed to accommodate this material. Most of the
> technical descriptions that I have seen regarding this material
> describe it as "highly corrosive". It emits fumes even at normal room
> temperature.
> 
> Muriatic+Peroxide is also corrosive, but not as bad as Ferric Chloride.
> Employ measures to protect.

I just put a block of wood over the Ferric Chloride etching tank when
i'm not using it. I typically do 30+ PCBs in it and change it once a year
or two. I add a bit of HCl every few months to keep it more active.

Much more economical than Muriatic+Peroxide and doesn't degrade with time.

Dylan Smith wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Nov 2007, Roland F. Harriston wrote:
> 
>> I personally think that Ferric Chloride is one of the worst compounds to
>> have around in a domestic environment, or in any environment that is
>> not specifically designed to accommodate this material.
> 
> In my opinion, they are all pretty nasty, and ferric chloride is the least
> nasty of a nasty lot... after all, hydrochloric acid is one of the harmful
> products of mustard gas (a WWI chemical weapon). The EPA classes HCl as a
> toxin, and at concentrations above 25% it's highly corrosive.

Your gut contains a large amount of HCl.

Beware the dangers of dihydrogen monoxide. It can be deadly;)

Let us be realistic!

Example: The volumetric area of my garage is 3600 cubic feet.
If I were to do my PCB etching in this area, how much effect is the 
"possible, but very remote" generation
of a minute amount of dihydrogen monoxide that might be generated
by approx. 12 ounces of a 80 Baume muriatic acid and 3% hydrogen
peroxide going to have in this volume of air ??

The danger in a well-ventilated area is reduced to virtually nil.

If I put a hood over my head over the solution in an open tray, I might 
have some
problems, but I don't do that kind of stuff (anymore).

Life as as an intelligent human generally revolves around some
sense of practicality.

Roland F. Harriston, P.D.



Russell Shaw wrote:

>
> Dylan Smith wrote:
> > On Sun, 25 Nov 2007, Roland F. Harriston wrote:
> >
> >> I personally think that Ferric Chloride is one of the worst 
> compounds to
> >> have around in a domestic environment, or in any environment that is
> >> not specifically designed to accommodate this material.
> >
> > In my opinion, they are all pretty nasty, and ferric chloride is the 
> least
> > nasty of a nasty lot... after all, hydrochloric acid is one of the 
> harmful
> > products of mustard gas (a WWI chemical weapon). The EPA classes HCl 
> as a
> > toxin, and at concentrations above 25% it's highly corrosive.
>
> Your gut contains a large amount of HCl.
>
> Beware the dangers of dihydrogen monoxide. It can be deadly;)
>
>

On Sunday 25 November 2007, Russell Shaw wrote:
> Dylan Smith wrote:
> > On Sun, 25 Nov 2007, Roland F. Harriston wrote:
> >> I personally think that Ferric Chloride is one of the worst compounds to
> >> have around in a domestic environment, or in any environment that is
> >> not specifically designed to accommodate this material.
> >
> > In my opinion, they are all pretty nasty, and ferric chloride is the
> > least nasty of a nasty lot... after all, hydrochloric acid is one of the
> > harmful products of mustard gas (a WWI chemical weapon). The EPA classes
> > HCl as a toxin, and at concentrations above 25% it's highly corrosive.
>
> Your gut contains a large amount of HCl.
>
> Beware the dangers of dihydrogen monoxide. It can be deadly;)
>

Yup. Very dangerous ;-)
http://www.dhmo.org/

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Russell Shaw wrote:

> Your gut contains a large amount of HCl.

Specifically, your stomach, but you still don't want to get HCl on you.
Your stomach goes to enormous lengths to prevent the HCl from damaging
other tissue. HCl is not quite so good on the skin, and is really bad on
the lungs or mucous membranes.

My point is all these etching chemicals are pretty nasty, and you don't
really want any on you.

A couple of thoughts on Ferric Chloride...

Ferric Chloride will slowly dissolve an aquarium air stone.

It is the Ferric Chloride mist that causes problems in the area around
the etching tank. Unlike the HCL, with a much lower vapor pressure,
which also becomes a gas and affects a much larger area.

Yes, Ferric Chloride reacts with most metals, so use plastic.

Ferric Chloride will stain everything.

Overall. Ferric Chloride is less dangerous to work with than the
Muriatic (HCl) Acid..

Be Safe! Use eye protection and rubber gloves.

Myc

(retired Industrial chemist)

Wow, I didn't expect to generate all this by posing the best etchant 
question but I did learn a lot from it. The bottom line is treat it like 
any other chemical that is highly dangerous and be careful and safe and 
all should be ok. I will etch outside, wear eye protection and work 
upwind when possible and not breathe the fumes. And of course I won't 
get any on me. Common sense is the key. But I am still glad I asked. :) 
Also, some interesting reading on the DHMO.
Thanks,
Dave
> ,___

I recommend you get an assistant and let them
take the risk.
Cedric

On Nov 26, 2007, at 7:34 AM, Dave wrote:

Wow, I didn't expect to generate all this by posing the best etchant
question but I did learn a lot from it. The bottom line is treat it like
any other chemical that is highly dangerous and be careful and safe and
all should be ok. I will etch outside, wear eye protection and work
upwind when possible and not breathe the fumes. And of course I won't
get any on me. Common sense is the key. But I am still glad I asked. :)
Also, some interesting reading on the DHMO.
Thanks,
Dave
 > ,___





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

agscal -AGSCalabrese wrote:
 >
 > I recommend you get an assistant and let them
 > take the risk.
 > Cedric


:) Thats one way to be safe!
Thanks,
Dave

>
>
>
> ._,___

...
> Beware the dangers of dihydrogen monoxide. It can be
> deadly;)

specially if you swallow more than four gallons at a time...


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