Homebrew PCBs

What is the secret to successfuk Toner Transfer? I have been 
consitently getting only partial transfers.

I have been cleaning the copper as well as I know how. Sanding, 
ScotchBrite, and acetone.

A fer days ago I tried some test transfers on 1/16" material. After a 
couple good transfers on that material I went to the 1/32" material I 
need to use. Now I am only getting between 50% and 75% of the toner 
transfered. The part that does transfer is bonding very well.

I read one place to keep the heat on it until the paper appears 
scorched. They claimed there was no such thing a too much heat.

My iron is getting very dirty so I am now cleaning it berofe the next 
try.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

I use a laminator, but the key for me seems to be three things:

1. HOT.  I let the laminator heat up completely.

2. Multiple passes.  It takes a while for the pcb itself to get hot
   enough that it won't suck the heat away from the toner.

3. Patience.  I soak the paper (pulsar's) until it just floats away, I
   don't try to pull it off.

So, you might want to try pre-heating the PCB itself to just below the
toner softening temperature (too hot, the paper sticks right away,
which might not be where you want)

Also, try cleaning with alcohol instead of acetone, and if you have a
heat gun, try pre-heating the pcb with that as it will dry off any
cleaning liquids remaining.

The heat gun is also handy after the transfer; you can re-melt the
toner until it's shinier, and hopefully seal it some more.  That also
dries the board without needing to physically touch the toner, if
you're post-processing it (i.e. green TRF sealer).

I use the HammerMill Office Glossy paper. I did a search on the web 
and bought a 300 count package for less than $10 including shipping. 
I have tried a lot of papers and this one is the best.

I use a toner transfer tool to do the transfer, see link below. This 
works much better than a cloths iron. Iron untill the paper turns a 
very light brown, and the pattern can be seen thru the paper. Pay 
attention to the edges as this seems to be an area where the heat 
disapates more rapidly. 

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=5734&filter=toner%20transfer

Instead of just soaking the paper off, I put the board and paper into 
a pan of boiling water, and continue boiling untill the paper nearly 
floats off. This takes less than 2 minutes. Then rinse under cold 
water with a minor amount of rubbing to get the small fuzzy's off. 

I get nearly perfect transfers every time.

RD



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Macklin" 
<rottenrobbie0@...> wrote:
>
> What is the secret to successfuk Toner Transfer? I have been 
> consitently getting only partial transfers.
> 
> I have been cleaning the copper as well as I know how. Sanding, 
> ScotchBrite, and acetone.
> 
> A fer days ago I tried some test transfers on 1/16" material. After 
a 
> couple good transfers on that material I went to the 1/32" material 
I 
> need to use. Now I am only getting between 50% and 75% of the toner 
> transfered. The part that does transfer is bonding very well.
> 
> I read one place to keep the heat on it until the paper appears 
> scorched. They claimed there was no such thing a too much heat.
> 
> My iron is getting very dirty so I am now cleaning it berofe the 
next 

> try.
> 
> Bob Macklin
> Seattle, Wa.
>

Thanks tor the link on the tool. That looks like a
better solution for my current need.

OTOH:

I have experiamce making PCB photographicly. I still
have the darkroom equipment. I have a need to generate
larger panels than possible with a clothes iron. And I
am not sure the small laminators will satisfy my
needs.

I can handle 6X9 panels fine photographicly. I have
been trying to make a 1X3 prototype for testing. 

To switch to the photo process all I need is the
pre-coated board stock and developer. I have
everything else.

The last time I tried the photo process it failed. But
it may have been the wrong developer or the fact that
I did not expose the board under a floresent lamp. The
infomation I have been able to read lately is much
more comprehensive than it was in 1996. That was the
early days of the web and we did not have the good
search engines then.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 09:48:18 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>Thanks tor the link on the tool. That looks like a
>better solution for my current need.
>
>OTOH:
>
>I have experiamce making PCB photographicly. I still
>have the darkroom equipment. I have a need to generate
>larger panels than possible with a clothes iron. And I
>am not sure the small laminators will satisfy my
>needs.
>
>I can handle 6X9 panels fine photographicly. I have
>been trying to make a 1X3 prototype for testing. 
>
>To switch to the photo process all I need is the
>pre-coated board stock and developer. I have
>everything else.
>
>The last time I tried the photo process it failed. But
>it may have been the wrong developer or the fact that
>I did not expose the board under a floresent lamp. The
>infomation I have been able to read lately is much
>more comprehensive than it was in 1996. That was the
>early days of the web and we did not have the good
>search engines then.

I've done some photo resist stuff, what's the problem?

Harvey

>
>Bob Macklin
>Seattle, Wa.

I have done lots of photo resist stuff in the past.
Pre 1995. But in about 1997 I picked up some supplies
at a local dealer that served the retail/hobby
community. The stuff I got from him did not work well.
But beleive I did not expose it with a UV lamp. It did
not say it needed UV. And I think it may have been
DATAK stuff. 

I have not done any PCBs since then.

But next month I am going to try the stuff from MG
Chemicals. Since I have to buy more board stock I
might just as well buy the MG pre-coated stock. I only
have one more un-cut 4X6 1/32" panel sot that's no
great loss.

I am reluctant to invest much int the TT process as I
already have an investment in the photo stuff. All I
need is the board stock and developer. Everything else
is the same.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 12:52:26 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>
>I have done lots of photo resist stuff in the past.
>Pre 1995. But in about 1997 I picked up some supplies
>at a local dealer that served the retail/hobby
>community. The stuff I got from him did not work well.
>But beleive I did not expose it with a UV lamp. It did
>not say it needed UV. And I think it may have been
>DATAK stuff. 

I think that stuff has improved a bit since then in terms of the
photoresist stuff.

>
>I have not done any PCBs since then.
>
>But next month I am going to try the stuff from MG
>Chemicals. Since I have to buy more board stock I
>might just as well buy the MG pre-coated stock. I only
>have one more un-cut 4X6 1/32" panel sot that's no
>great loss.

I've used MG chemicals stuff, it's good and works.  Make sure you use
the proper exposure time as determined by a good exposure test.

Also, if you have any way of controlling the exposure on your laser
printer (assuming as if...) set it to as dense as possible.  If you're
using something like kodalith or getting the negative made outside,
then that's not going to be a problem.  

For the MG stuff, you'll need a positive pattern and a good way of
registering top to bottom, of course, if doing double sided.

>
>I am reluctant to invest much int the TT process as I
>already have an investment in the photo stuff. All I
>need is the board stock and developer. Everything else
>is the same.

Your investment in TT stuff would be a laminator of some sort. T-shirt
laminators are probably best, but I haven't used them.  Next would be
a laminator you could modify and be wide enough for your board.

That could be as little as cheap at a salvage store or 150 dollars or
so.

The pulsar paper is 1.50 per sheet (roughly), or you could try various
other avenues for paper.  YMMV a lot....

Photo produces nicer boards, but is more difficult to do, depending on
your resources.

There's some stuff at www.dragonworks.info on toner transfer as well
as the MG chemicals that you might want to look at.

Harvey

>
>Bob Macklin
>Seattle, Wa.

Thanks for the info. I think the stuff I used in 1997
was DATAK. But I cannot be sure. I plan to try the MG
Chemicals stuff next mont. I can purchase everyting
here locally except the 1/32 board stock. The next
time I am at the dealer i will see if I can con him
into stocking the 1/32 material also.

I am trying to produce a LOW COST tracking transmitter
for freeflight model airplanes and model rockets. I
cannot afford the cost of a normally produced PCB. The
only option right now is a home-made PCB. The total
cost of the transmitter has to be under $20.

And since I am retired (not by choice) I have more
time than money!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 15:13:53 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>Thanks for the info. I think the stuff I used in 1997
>was DATAK. But I cannot be sure. I plan to try the MG
>Chemicals stuff next mont. I can purchase everyting
>here locally except the 1/32 board stock. The next
>time I am at the dealer i will see if I can con him
>into stocking the 1/32 material also.
>
>I am trying to produce a LOW COST tracking transmitter
>for freeflight model airplanes and model rockets. I
>cannot afford the cost of a normally produced PCB. The
>only option right now is a home-made PCB. The total
>cost of the transmitter has to be under $20.
>
>And since I am retired (not by choice) I have more
>time than money!

I can understand that.

Cost of etchant, 50 cents
cost of paper for really small board 1.50
cost of green foil and white foil for really small board  30 cents

In a sense, you can produce a double sided board for about 2.30 *if*
you can get the foil sides, and the silkscreen on one piece of paper,
which is about 4 by 3 inches total board size.

That's assuming pulsar paper which is roughly 15 dollars per 10
sheets.  Anything else you might use that's cheaper runs the price
down even more.

Figuring a transparency at 1.00 per sheet, and the presensitized board
at 5.00 for a 6 * 8 sheet (I was able to get ss sensitized at this
price, DS was probably more). then you are talking getting at least
two boards out of this for about a break even price.

All depends, though.

Harvey

>
>Bob Macklin
>Seattle, Wa.

I never use whole sheets of TT paper.

I print out the design on plain paper, cut out a TT swatch a little
bigger than the board, tape it to the pre-printed plain paper, and run
it through the printer again.

One TT sheet can make many boards that way.

Because of the size of this thing I don't plan on
having a silkscreen. But I am going to use a solder
mask.

This board is 1X3 inches. I can get 4 or 5 boards from
a 4X6 panel.

Worst case cost is about $2/board exculding my time.
Remember, I am retired. And the RAINY SEASON seems to
have arrived in Seattle!

To be viable this transmitter has to be able to be
sold for $50. I can't afford a $20 commercial PCB for
that price. The electronic components come out right
at $10.

Here is sample of what I am planning to make:
http://http://www.ramseyelectronics.com/cgi-bin/commerce.exe?preadd=action&key=MR6

I just pulle the first board out of the soup. It's a
little rough but useable for the next phase.

I am going to need a MIDGET or a MICROSCOPE to
assemble this thing! I may be able to go back to 0805
resistors and capacitors now that I have really seen
the board.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

I have a gerber Tool that allows me to make a panel of
patterns. In this case I set it up to make 12 patterns
an a full sheet. I used one sheet for the top and
another sheet for the bottom. 

I am glad that I did set it up for 12. I used 8 of the
tops before i got a good transfer. 

I make the Gerber prints on my inkjet then I go to
Kinkos's to make the TT sheets. In this case I could
have put 6 tops and 6 bottoms on the same sheet.

This was the best for me. Until I have more confidemce
in this process it is easier for me to waste some
paper.

I have 2 pacls of DynaArt paper I bought about 10
years ago. I had no idea how well it would work. The
board i made today is good enough for testing the
design. It also showed me I migh be able to use 0805
components instead of 0603s.

Bob Mackin
Seattle, Wa.

I only have a dot matrix printer.  The way I use toner transfer 
technique is to print the circuit out on a plain sheet of paper, cut 
it out and pasted it to another sheet of paper.  Additional circuits 
are printed, cut out, and pasted until the paper is 
covered.   Different circuits can be printed out.  The goal is to 
cover the sheet of paper.  Take the circuit covered paper to a big 
box office supply store, e.g., Office Depot, etc.  and have the 
circuit covered paper copied to a toner transfer sheet.  Cost less 
than 10 cents.

Cut out the copy of the circuits on the toner transfer paper and 
"iron" them on the printed circuit boards.
At 07:42 PM 10/15/2007, you wrote:

>I never use whole sheets of TT paper.
>
>I print out the design on plain paper, cut out a TT swatch a little
>bigger than the board, tape it to the pre-printed plain paper, and run
>it through the printer again.
>
>One TT sheet can make many boards that way.
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

         73,
         Mike, K4GMH 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bob Macklin <rottenrobbie0@...> writes:
> I have 2 pacls of DynaArt paper I bought about 10 years ago. I had
> no idea how well it would work.

Ok, you might need this tip then...

Put the paper on a cooling rack in a box or plastic container with a
container with a small amount of water.  Don't let the paper touch the
water, you just want to build a humidity box to rehumidify the paper.
Leave it in the box for three minutes, then run it through the laser
printer.  The humidity softens the fibers, giving you a smoother
print.

> Mike wrote:
>
> I only have a dot matrix printer.

Long live the impact dot matrix printer.

(Actually we don't have to wish it a long life - it will still be 
running when all those inkjets are in landfills)

I'm new here, but seeing as how many people still use toner transfer
I'd like to share my ideas.
The boards I make have very good results, I'd say that 95% of the time
I don't even have to do anything to the board after I iron it (meaning
that I don't need to go with a pen and fill in gaps). My method is
pretty simple tough: I just print it on a laster, with as much toner
as possible and on a normal sheet of paper. I cut the board in the
appropriate size, sand it with a light sheet of sand (sorry, I don't
know the proper terms in english for it...), the clean it with cotton
balls soaked in alcohol (92.8º minimum!). When the board is fully
clean, i place tha paper on top of the board, toner on the copper and,
again with cotton and alcohol, make the paper stick to the copper.
Then I just iron it as strongly as possible. After I've ironed it
well, I spray it with water mixed with a cleaner (sorry I can't be
more specific in it... I'm in Brazil and the only description I have
for this product is cleaner... I think maybe detergent would also work
well... I do a mixing of 4/5 of water with 1/5 of cleaner)... while
it's still hot! Let the paper wrinkle a bit and, with an old
toothbrush, I'll remove the paper, making circular motions on the
paper, not too hard so the toner won't leave with it, specially since
it's still hot. That's it... Pretty good home made boards right at
home. And I've done dual layered boards with no problems...
A couple of pics of my boards:
http://img262.imageshack.us/my.php?image=20070724foto09oj0.jpg
http://img262.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2007-07-24-foto01.jpg
Those were made with a thicker kind of newspaper paper... But I found
out later that with plain paper and even recicled work just as good
(even better actually, with printers that can only print at 600dpi)
and are easier to find.
My only problem is with the etching, which takes forever with ferric
chloride, and I don't have access to an alternative solution I saw...
The white thing on top of the toner is just reminescent paper... It
won't do any harm, but you just gotta make sure it's not
short-circuiting your tracks!

Bob, you mentioned a gerber tool you use to print multiple circuits on
one sheet of paper... What is this tool? I have a problem with
scaling... what I do is export as an image (bmp, jpg, or the likes)
then insert into Word and manually adjust the size to the boards size.
But it isn't 100% accurate and on IC's I have alingment problems and I
usually have to use a bigger drill on the corner pads. This is pretty
much the only problem I have with my boards.



--
[]´s
Felipe Baldner
fbaldner@...

On 10/15/07, Bob Macklin <rottenrobbie0@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I have a gerber Tool that allows me to make a panel of
>  patterns. In this case I set it up to make 12 patterns
>  an a full sheet. I used one sheet for the top and
>  another sheet for the bottom.
>
>  I am glad that I did set it up for 12. I used 8 of the
>  tops before i got a good transfer.
>
>  I make the Gerber prints on my inkjet then I go to
>  Kinkos's to make the TT sheets. In this case I could
>  have put 6 tops and 6 bottoms on the same sheet.
>
>  This was the best for me. Until I have more confidemce
>  in this process it is easier for me to waste some
>  paper.
>
>  I have 2 pacls of DynaArt paper I bought about 10
>  years ago. I had no idea how well it would work. The
>  board i made today is good enough for testing the
>  design. It also showed me I migh be able to use 0805
>  components instead of 0603s.
>
>  Bob Mackin
>  Seattle, Wa.
>
>                    



-- 
[]´s
Felipe Baldner
fbaldner@...

I use Orcad to do my PCB. It is professional software.
It has the Gerber tool built in. It's much better than
any of the free or low cost stuff.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

Bob -
Have you run across this Yahoo group?  OldDosOrcad  - users of many 
versions of the old reliable.  I use SDT III and the PCB of the same 
vintage . . .  ~1987.  It runs on my XP machine just fine.

OldDosOrcad-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Norm
Concrete, WA
Bob Macklin wrote:

> I use Orcad to do my PCB. It is professional software.
> It has the Gerber tool built in. It's much better than
> any of the free or low cost stuff.
>
> Bob Macklin
> Seattle, Wa.
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

Norm,

No I have not. But I do still have my last DOS version
from 1993.

But I like the 1998 Windows version better. And I like
it better than any of the freebies i have tried.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.
--- Norm Stewart <w6nim@...> wrote:

> Bob -
> Have you run across this Yahoo group?  OldDosOrcad 
> - users of many 
> versions of the old reliable.  I use SDT III and the
> PCB of the same 
> vintage . . .  ~1987.  It runs on my XP machine just
> fine.
> 
> OldDosOrcad-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Norm
> Concrete, WA
> Bob Macklin wrote:
> > I use Orcad to do my PCB. It is professional
> software.
> > It has the Gerber tool built in. It's much better
> than
> > any of the free or low cost stuff.
> >
> > Bob Macklin
> > Seattle, Wa.
> >
> >
> >
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new
> Links, Files, and Photos:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >   
> 
> 
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new
> Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> mailto:Homebrew_PCBs-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> 
> 
>

Hi Felipe,
   
     " When the board is fully
clean, i place tha paper on top of the board, toner on the copper and,
again with cotton and alcohol, make the paper stick to the copper."
   
  Woul this mean that you applied an alcohol to the paper while setting it on the PCB? If so this mean that the paper got wet with the alcohol before applying hot iron.. I am so intersted with this and more clear procedure would be great.
   
  Regards,
  Bernie


Felipe Baldner <fbaldner@...> wrote:
          I'm new here, but seeing as how many people still use toner transfer
I'd like to share my ideas.
The boards I make have very good results, I'd say that 95% of the time
I don't even have to do anything to the board after I iron it (meaning
that I don't need to go with a pen and fill in gaps). My method is
pretty simple tough: I just print it on a laster, with as much toner
as possible and on a normal sheet of paper. I cut the board in the
appropriate size, sand it with a light sheet of sand (sorry, I don't
know the proper terms in english for it...), the clean it with cotton
balls soaked in alcohol (92.8º minimum!). When the board is fully
clean, i place tha paper on top of the board, toner on the copper and,
again with cotton and alcohol, make the paper stick to the copper.
Then I just iron it as strongly as possible. After I've ironed it
well, I spray it with water mixed with a cleaner (sorry I can't be
more specific in it... I'm in Brazil and the only description I have
for this product is cleaner... I think maybe detergent would also work
well... I do a mixing of 4/5 of water with 1/5 of cleaner)... while
it's still hot! Let the paper wrinkle a bit and, with an old
toothbrush, I'll remove the paper, making circular motions on the
paper, not too hard so the toner won't leave with it, specially since
it's still hot. That's it... Pretty good home made boards right at
home. And I've done dual layered boards with no problems...
A couple of pics of my boards:
http://img262.imageshack.us/my.php?image=20070724foto09oj0.jpg
http://img262.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2007-07-24-foto01.jpg
Those were made with a thicker kind of newspaper paper... But I found
out later that with plain paper and even recicled work just as good
(even better actually, with printers that can only print at 600dpi)
and are easier to find.
My only problem is with the etching, which takes forever with ferric
chloride, and I don't have access to an alternative solution I saw...
The white thing on top of the toner is just reminescent paper... It
won't do any harm, but you just gotta make sure it's not
short-circuiting your tracks!

Bob, you mentioned a gerber tool you use to print multiple circuits on
one sheet of paper... What is this tool? I have a problem with
scaling... what I do is export as an image (bmp, jpg, or the likes)
then insert into Word and manually adjust the size to the boards size.
But it isn't 100% accurate and on IC's I have alingment problems and I
usually have to use a bigger drill on the corner pads. This is pretty
much the only problem I have with my boards.

--
[]´s
Felipe Baldner
fbaldner@...

On 10/15/07, Bob Macklin <rottenrobbie0@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I have a gerber Tool that allows me to make a panel of
> patterns. In this case I set it up to make 12 patterns
> an a full sheet. I used one sheet for the top and
> another sheet for the bottom.
>
> I am glad that I did set it up for 12. I used 8 of the
> tops before i got a good transfer.
>
> I make the Gerber prints on my inkjet then I go to
> Kinkos's to make the TT sheets. In this case I could
> have put 6 tops and 6 bottoms on the same sheet.
>
> This was the best for me. Until I have more confidemce
> in this process it is easier for me to waste some
> paper.
>
> I have 2 pacls of DynaArt paper I bought about 10
> years ago. I had no idea how well it would work. The
> board i made today is good enough for testing the
> design. It also showed me I migh be able to use 0805
> components instead of 0603s.
>
> Bob Mackin
> Seattle, Wa.
>
> 

-- 
[]´s
Felipe Baldner
fbaldner@...


                         

       
---------------------------------
Shape Yahoo! in your own image.  Join our Network Research Panel today!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Bernie.

Yes, it's exactly what you understood... I apply the iron on the paper
while it is wet with alcohol. It's not to soak or drench it, just
enough so it'll stick to the copper while letting you see the tracks.
If you use too much, you'll smudge the toner on the copper... I have a
pic about this:
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/9153/20070724foto09oj0.jpg
There are two possible mistakes here (this was one of my first trial boards):
1) Smudging of the tonner due to excessive use of alcohol (center of
the board, a bit to the left)
2) Not enough pressure (the area with no tonner in the center of the
board and in bottom right area)

Anything else, just say it!


-- 
[]´s
Felipe Baldner
fbaldner@...

On 10/17/07, Bernie Fernandez <bernie_a_fernandez@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Felipe,
>
>       " When the board is fully
>  clean, i place tha paper on top of the board, toner on the copper and,
>  again with cotton and alcohol, make the paper stick to the copper."
>
>    Woul this mean that you applied an alcohol to the paper while setting it on the PCB? If so this mean that the paper got wet with the alcohol before applying hot iron.. I am so intersted with this and more clear procedure would be great.
>
>    Regards,
>    Bernie

I read something on a web page about transfering the
image with a solvent pen. I tried it with acetone and
the image transfered very nicely. But it was not hard.
It needs heat to harden it.

I put the paper back on and applied the heat. The
image went back to the paper. I am thinking about
trying it with a fresh piece of TT paper. Just to see
if it may work.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.
 
--- Felipe Baldner <fbaldner@...> wrote:

> Hi Bernie.
> 
> Yes, it's exactly what you understood... I apply the
> iron on the paper
> while it is wet with alcohol. It's not to soak or
> drench it, just
> enough so it'll stick to the copper while letting
> you see the tracks.
> If you use too much, you'll smudge the toner on the
> copper... I have a
> pic about this:
>
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/9153/20070724foto09oj0.jpg

> There are two possible mistakes here (this was one
> of my first trial boards):
> 1) Smudging of the tonner due to excessive use of
> alcohol (center of
> the board, a bit to the left)
> 2) Not enough pressure (the area with no tonner in
> the center of the
> board and in bottom right area)
> 
> Anything else, just say it!
> 
> 
> -- 
> []\ufffds
> Felipe Baldner
> fbaldner@...
> 
> On 10/17/07, Bernie Fernandez
> <bernie_a_fernandez@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Felipe,
> >
> >       " When the board is fully
> >  clean, i place tha paper on top of the board,
> toner on the copper and,
> >  again with cotton and alcohol, make the paper
> stick to the copper."
> >
> >    Woul this mean that you applied an alcohol to
> the paper while setting it on the PCB? If so this
> mean that the paper got wet with the alcohol before
> applying hot iron.. I am so intersted with this and
> more clear procedure would be great.
> >
> >    Regards,
> >    Bernie
> 
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new
> Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> mailto:Homebrew_PCBs-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> 
> 
>

Bob Macklin <rottenrobbie0@...> writes:
> I read something on a web page about transfering the
> image with a solvent pen. I tried it with acetone and
> the image transfered very nicely. But it was not hard.
> It needs heat to harden it.

Maybe it needs heat to evaporate the solvent again?  In that case,
just baking or heat-gunning the pcb (no paper) would do.

I have too many links to be able to find it easily.

Just try it. It's the process to move a toner image to
another object like a decal. But then you have to fix
it with a laquer or varnis.

But that won't work for etching. I was thinking about
baking it in the oven.

But two days ago I found out how to get 100% good
transfers. I really don't need to waste more time to
figure out an alternative method.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.
--- Felipe Baldner <fbaldner@...> wrote:

> You mean the acetone simply made the toner go from
> the paper to the copper?
> Hmm interesting... do you have a link to that
> webpage? I'd like to see
> that...
>  
> 
> --
> []\ufffds
> Felipe Baldner
> fbaldner@...  
> 
>  
> 
> 
>   _____  
> 
> De: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] Em
> nome de Bob Macklin
> Enviada em: quarta-feira, 17 de outubro de 2007
> 06:40 PM
> Para: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Assunto: Re: [SPAM] Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: TT
> Technique??
> 
> 
> 
> I read something on a web page about transfering the
> image with a solvent pen. I tried it with acetone
> and
> the image transfered very nicely. But it was not
> hard.
> It needs heat to harden it.
> 
> I put the paper back on and applied the heat. The
> image went back to the paper. I am thinking about
> trying it with a fresh piece of TT paper. Just to
> see
> if it may work.
> 
> Bob Macklin
> Seattle, Wa.
> 
> --- Felipe Baldner <fbaldner@gmail.
> <mailto:fbaldner%40gmail.com> com>
> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Bernie.
> > 
> > Yes, it's exactly what you understood... I apply
> the
> > iron on the paper
> > while it is wet with alcohol. It's not to soak or
> > drench it, just
> > enough so it'll stick to the copper while letting
> > you see the tracks.
> > If you use too much, you'll smudge the toner on
> the
> > copper... I have a
> > pic about this:
> >
> http://img262.
>
<http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/9153/20070724foto09oj0.jpg>
> imageshack.us/img262/9153/20070724foto09oj0.jpg
> > There are two possible mistakes here (this was one
> > of my first trial boards):
> > 1) Smudging of the tonner due to excessive use of
> > alcohol (center of
> > the board, a bit to the left)
> > 2) Not enough pressure (the area with no tonner in
> > the center of the
> > board and in bottom right area)
> > 
> > Anything else, just say it!
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > []\ufffds
> > Felipe Baldner
> > fbaldner@gmail. <mailto:fbaldner%40gmail.com> com
> > 
> > On 10/17/07, Bernie Fernandez
> > <bernie_a_fernandez@
> <mailto:bernie_a_fernandez%40yahoo.com> yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Felipe,
> > >
> > > " When the board is fully
> > > clean, i place tha paper on top of the board,
> > toner on the copper and,
> > > again with cotton and alcohol, make the paper
> > stick to the copper."
> > >
> > > Woul this mean that you applied an alcohol to
> > the paper while setting it on the PCB? If so this
> > mean that the paper got wet with the alcohol
> before
> > applying hot iron.. I am so intersted with this
> and
> > more clear procedure would be great.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Bernie
> > 
> > 
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new
> > Links, Files, and Photos:
> > http://groups.
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs>
> yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > mailto:Homebrew_PCBs-
>
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs-fullfeatured%40yahoogroups.com>

> fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
> 
> 
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new
> Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> mailto:Homebrew_PCBs-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> 
> 
>

You mean the acetone simply made the toner go from the paper to the copper?
Hmm interesting... do you have a link to that webpage? I'd like to see
that...
 

--
[]´s
Felipe Baldner
fbaldner@...  

 


  _____  

De: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] Em
nome de Bob Macklin
Enviada em: quarta-feira, 17 de outubro de 2007 06:40 PM
Para: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Assunto: Re: [SPAM] Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: TT Technique??



I read something on a web page about transfering the
image with a solvent pen. I tried it with acetone and
the image transfered very nicely. But it was not hard.
It needs heat to harden it.

I put the paper back on and applied the heat. The
image went back to the paper. I am thinking about
trying it with a fresh piece of TT paper. Just to see
if it may work.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

--- Felipe Baldner <fbaldner@gmail. <mailto:fbaldner%40gmail.com> com>
wrote:

> Hi Bernie.
> 
> Yes, it's exactly what you understood... I apply the
> iron on the paper
> while it is wet with alcohol. It's not to soak or
> drench it, just
> enough so it'll stick to the copper while letting
> you see the tracks.
> If you use too much, you'll smudge the toner on the
> copper... I have a
> pic about this:
>
http://img262.
<http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/9153/20070724foto09oj0.jpg>
imageshack.us/img262/9153/20070724foto09oj0.jpg
> There are two possible mistakes here (this was one
> of my first trial boards):
> 1) Smudging of the tonner due to excessive use of
> alcohol (center of
> the board, a bit to the left)
> 2) Not enough pressure (the area with no tonner in
> the center of the
> board and in bottom right area)
> 
> Anything else, just say it!
> 
> 
> -- 
> []´s
> Felipe Baldner
> fbaldner@gmail. <mailto:fbaldner%40gmail.com> com
> 
> On 10/17/07, Bernie Fernandez
> <bernie_a_fernandez@ <mailto:bernie_a_fernandez%40yahoo.com> yahoo.com>
wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Felipe,
> >
> > " When the board is fully
> > clean, i place tha paper on top of the board,
> toner on the copper and,
> > again with cotton and alcohol, make the paper
> stick to the copper."
> >
> > Woul this mean that you applied an alcohol to
> the paper while setting it on the PCB? If so this
> mean that the paper got wet with the alcohol before
> applying hot iron.. I am so intersted with this and
> more clear procedure would be great.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Bernie
> 
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new
> Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs>
yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> mailto:Homebrew_PCBs-
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs-fullfeatured%40yahoogroups.com>
fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> 
> 
> 



 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well... care to share the method? :)
 

--
[]´s
Felipe Baldner
fbaldner@gmail.com  

 


  _____  

De: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] Em
nome de Bob Macklin
Enviada em: quarta-feira, 17 de outubro de 2007 08:09 PM
Para: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Assunto: Re: RES: [SPAM] Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: TT Technique??



I have too many links to be able to find it easily.

Just try it. It's the process to move a toner image to
another object like a decal. But then you have to fix
it with a laquer or varnis.

But that won't work for etching. I was thinking about
baking it in the oven.

But two days ago I found out how to get 100% good
transfers. I really don't need to waste more time to
figure out an alternative method.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.
--- Felipe Baldner <fbaldner@gmail. <mailto:fbaldner%40gmail.com> com>
wrote:

> You mean the acetone simply made the toner go from
> the paper to the copper?
> Hmm interesting... do you have a link to that
> webpage? I'd like to see
> that...
> 
> 
> --
> []´s
> Felipe Baldner
> fbaldner@gmail. <mailto:fbaldner%40gmail.com> com 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _____ 
> 
> De: Homebrew_PCBs@ <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@ <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com] Em
> nome de Bob Macklin
> Enviada em: quarta-feira, 17 de outubro de 2007
> 06:40 PM
> Para: Homebrew_PCBs@ <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com
> Assunto: Re: [SPAM] Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: TT
> Technique??
> 
> 
> 
> I read something on a web page about transfering the
> image with a solvent pen. I tried it with acetone
> and
> the image transfered very nicely. But it was not
> hard.
> It needs heat to harden it.
> 
> I put the paper back on and applied the heat. The
> image went back to the paper. I am thinking about
> trying it with a fresh piece of TT paper. Just to
> see
> if it may work.
> 
> Bob Macklin
> Seattle, Wa.
> 
> --- Felipe Baldner <fbaldner@gmail.
> <mailto:fbaldner%40gmail.com> com>
> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Bernie.
> > 
> > Yes, it's exactly what you understood... I apply
> the
> > iron on the paper
> > while it is wet with alcohol. It's not to soak or
> > drench it, just
> > enough so it'll stick to the copper while letting
> > you see the tracks.
> > If you use too much, you'll smudge the toner on
> the
> > copper... I have a
> > pic about this:
> >
> http://img262.
>
<http://img262.
<http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/9153/20070724foto09oj0.jpg>
imageshack.us/img262/9153/20070724foto09oj0.jpg>
> imageshack.us/img262/9153/20070724foto09oj0.jpg
> > There are two possible mistakes here (this was one
> > of my first trial boards):
> > 1) Smudging of the tonner due to excessive use of
> > alcohol (center of
> > the board, a bit to the left)
> > 2) Not enough pressure (the area with no tonner in
> > the center of the
> > board and in bottom right area)
> > 
> > Anything else, just say it!
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > []´s
> > Felipe Baldner
> > fbaldner@gmail. <mailto:fbaldner%40gmail.com> com
> > 
> > On 10/17/07, Bernie Fernandez
> > <bernie_a_fernandez@
> <mailto:bernie_a_fernandez%40yahoo.com> yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Felipe,
> > >
> > > " When the board is fully
> > > clean, i place tha paper on top of the board,
> > toner on the copper and,
> > > again with cotton and alcohol, make the paper
> > stick to the copper."
> > >
> > > Woul this mean that you applied an alcohol to
> > the paper while setting it on the PCB? If so this
> > mean that the paper got wet with the alcohol
> before
> > applying hot iron.. I am so intersted with this
> and
> > more clear procedure would be great.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Bernie
> > 
> > 
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new
> > Links, Files, and Photos:
> > http://groups.
> <http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs>
yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs>
> yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > mailto:Homebrew_PCBs-
>
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs-fullfeatured%40yahoogroups.com>
> fullfeatured@ <mailto:fullfeatured%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
> 
> 
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new
> Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs>
yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> mailto:Homebrew_PCBs-
<mailto:Homebrew_PCBs-fullfeatured%40yahoogroups.com>
fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> 
> 
> 



 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bob,

Please tells how you get 100% results with your TT method.  Inquiring 
minds want to know.

Thanks,
Mark


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Bob Macklin <rottenrobbie0@...> 
wrote:

>
> I have too many links to be able to find it easily.
> 
> Just try it. It's the process to move a toner image to
> another object like a decal. But then you have to fix
> it with a laquer or varnis.
> 
> But that won't work for etching. I was thinking about
> baking it in the oven.
> 
> But two days ago I found out how to get 100% good
> transfers. I really don't need to waste more time to
> figure out an alternative method.
> 
> Bob Macklin
> Seattle, Wa.

At first I was trying to hold the iron in place for 5
minutes. I would only get partial transfers. My PCB is
1X3 inches. The bottom of my iron has a large enough
area with out hols to cover it. After several days of
only getting partial transfers I was ready to go back
to photography. I have been doing boards
photographicly for over 40 years. This was my first
experiance with Toner Transfer even though I bought
the TT paper about 10 years ago.

I decieded to try one more time. But this time I
ironed the TT sheet with the tip of the iron for the
full 5 minutes. By the time I was done the paper was
very dark. Almost black. I put the PCB in the water
and let it soak. The first 2 times I had to touch the
edge of the paper before it floated free. On the 3rd
one the paper floated free by itself. All three of
these tries gave me good results. Not as good as I
have done photographicly, but good enough for putting
together a prototype device.

The instructions on the Pulsar website leave a lot to
be desired!

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.
--- "mark.mickelsen" <mark.mickelsen@...>
wrote:

> Bob,
> 
> Please tells how you get 100% results with your TT
> method.  Inquiring 
> minds want to know.
> 
> Thanks,
> Mark
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Bob Macklin
> <rottenrobbie0@...> 
> wrote:
> >
> > I have too many links to be able to find it
> easily.
> > 
> > Just try it. It's the process to move a toner
> image to
> > another object like a decal. But then you have to
> fix
> > it with a laquer or varnis.
> > 
> > But that won't work for etching. I was thinking
> about
> > baking it in the oven.
> > 
> > But two days ago I found out how to get 100% good
> > transfers. I really don't need to waste more time
> to
> > figure out an alternative method.
> > 
> > Bob Macklin
> > Seattle, Wa.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new
> Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> mailto:Homebrew_PCBs-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> 
> 
>

thanks for the information my friend. it sounds so interesting.

Felipe Baldner <fbaldner@...> wrote:          Hi Bernie.

Yes, it's exactly what you understood... I apply the iron on the paper
while it is wet with alcohol. It's not to soak or drench it, just
enough so it'll stick to the copper while letting you see the tracks.
If you use too much, you'll smudge the toner on the copper... I have a
pic about this:
http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/9153/20070724foto09oj0.jpg
There are two possible mistakes here (this was one of my first trial boards):
1) Smudging of the tonner due to excessive use of alcohol (center of
the board, a bit to the left)
2) Not enough pressure (the area with no tonner in the center of the
board and in bottom right area)

Anything else, just say it!

-- 
[]´s
Felipe Baldner
fbaldner@...

On 10/17/07, Bernie Fernandez <bernie_a_fernandez@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Felipe,
>
> " When the board is fully
> clean, i place tha paper on top of the board, toner on the copper and,
> again with cotton and alcohol, make the paper stick to the copper."
>
> Woul this mean that you applied an alcohol to the paper while setting it on the PCB? If so this mean that the paper got wet with the alcohol before applying hot iron.. I am so intersted with this and more clear procedure would be great.
>
> Regards,
> Bernie


                         

 __________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I've made several PCBs with TT and must say that the last ones are 
getting really good.  The most important tips I've been following are 
this:

DO's
  1.- clean the copper well before transfering, I use thin metal wool.
  
  2.- try to use a SMALL Iron, like one used for neckties or for 
travelling, since it'll be easier to handle and will have a less 
bended heat-surface due to temperature.

  3.- Put the paper on the PCB and put the iron over it a few seconds 
to get a good working temperature

  4.- Use the iron's EDGE (NOT it's surface) to iron the whole thing, 
from time to time use the whole iron's surface to heat the PCB a bit 
and continue to use the edge, this warrants that every part of the 
drawing you are trying to transfer gets a correct amount of pressure, 
and the correct amount of heat.

  5.- Either put the PCB in water for some minutes and delicately get 
the paper out with your fingers or a toothbrush OR instead of using 
water pour some eatable oil over the paper, spread it well, wait some 
time for the paper to be really wet and try to rip the paper in one 
piece... I prefer the water-method

DONT's

  1.- DON'T just put the iron on top of the paper and leave it there 
thinking it's a matter of time for the transfer to be completed, in 
fact a few seconds will be enough if you have the right temperature 
and pressure and you will avoid overheating and possibly damagind the 
PCB.

  2.- DON'T use the whole surface of the iron to make the transfer, 
because since it is HOT it is also deformed and hence not completely 
straight.  This is the cause that makes you get some parts of the 
drawing transfered and some not, because some parts just don't get 
pressure! REMEMBER: use the EDGES to iron the drawing!!!!

  3.- DON'T scorch the paper, it has nothing to do with getting the 
transfer well, it only gets it all dirty!

  4.- DON'T overheat the PCB, since it will damage the bond between 
the copper surface and the PCB sustrate, there's NO NEED to put the 
iron several minutes over the PCB and get it cooked!!. Transfer 
doesn't work that way!!!

  5.- When ironing with the iron edges DON'T press it to much, since 
excesive pressure will spread the toner making difuse lines, just 
make 3 or four conscious passes pressing normally and you'll get the 
whole design transfered.

The best I've gotten so far using this tips is 10 mils lines and a 
good component density. Hope it is helpful!

I had forgotten, I don't use ay sort of special TT paper, just the 
common 90 gr sheets that I use for printing anything at home....

1- I use a Dry Iron! The bottom is FLAT with no holes or dimples! Price $10

2- I use Staples Photo basic inkjet paper.

3- I print the image on the paper! Then I bring up Notepad and print a Period away from my pattern
     This will make the fuser come on. Then it goes thru for the second time. 
     When you iron this on the toner layer will separate from the base paper when soaked in water.
     The remainer of the paper will easily rub off with a toothbrush. I get beautyful results.
      I try to  keep the pattern at least .2 inches from the edge.As I find this is a problem area for transfer
      as the board cool off to fast on the edges.
4- I use a one inch diameter wooden dowel under the board when ironing(it puts maxamum pressure on the pattern)
    Its like a rolly-polly so you need your wifes oven mitt to handle it when ironing
results very good down to .007 inch(the narroest iv'e tried..

73
Mike

----- Original Message ----
From: eballiri <eballiri@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 4:52:44 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: TT Technique??

I've made several PCBs with TT and must say that the last ones are 
getting really good. The most important tips I've been following are 
this:

DO's
1.- clean the copper well before transfering, I use thin metal wool.

2.- try to use a SMALL Iron, like one used for neckties or for 
travelling, since it'll be easier to handle and will have a less 
bended heat-surface due to temperature.

3.- Put the paper on the PCB and put the iron over it a few seconds 
to get a good working temperature

4.- Use the iron's EDGE (NOT it's surface) to iron the whole thing, 
from time to time use the whole iron's surface to heat the PCB a bit 
and continue to use the edge, this warrants that every part of the 
drawing you are trying to transfer gets a correct amount of pressure, 
and the correct amount of heat.

5.- Either put the PCB in water for some minutes and delicately get 
the paper out with your fingers or a toothbrush OR instead of using 
water pour some eatable oil over the paper, spread it well, wait some 
time for the paper to be really wet and try to rip the paper in one 
piece... I prefer the water-method

DONT's

1.- DON'T just put the iron on top of the paper and leave it there 
thinking it's a matter of time for the transfer to be completed, in 
fact a few seconds will be enough if you have the right temperature 
and pressure and you will avoid overheating and possibly damagind the 
PCB.

2.- DON'T use the whole surface of the iron to make the transfer, 
because since it is HOT it is also deformed and hence not completely 
straight. This is the cause that makes you get some parts of the 
drawing transfered and some not, because some parts just don't get 
pressure! REMEMBER: use the EDGES to iron the drawing!!!!

3.- DON'T scorch the paper, it has nothing to do with getting the 
transfer well, it only gets it all dirty!

4.- DON'T overheat the PCB, since it will damage the bond between 
the copper surface and the PCB sustrate, there's NO NEED to put the 
iron several minutes over the PCB and get it cooked!!. Transfer 
doesn't work that way!!!

5.- When ironing with the iron edges DON'T press it to much, since 
excesive pressure will spread the toner making difuse lines, just 
make 3 or four conscious passes pressing normally and you'll get the 
whole design transfered.

The best I've gotten so far using this tips is 10 mils lines and a 
good component density. Hope it is helpful!




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I strongly recommend you to use a laminator, one you buy or you build
from an old laser printer. It must be able to go to 200°C and you can
always modify its speed to avoid multiple passes.
Ironing require a lot of practice to get good results with different
tickness, I get only one out of two acceptable, not yet perfect with
HP Premium Plus inkjet photopaper. By the way, if you use this kind of
paper, after you have printed your drawing on it, I suggest you remove
the back sheet of plastic. With a cutter, it's not difficult to
seperate the front where you have your print from the back. This is to
avoid, if your paper contains too moist, when heating the paper that
bubbles appears between the two plastic sheet that form the paper and
deforms your drawing on the copper clad., 
I'm using HP Premium Plus inkjet photopaper with a HP laserjet 6P.
and still have some pinholes in the print from time to time.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Macklin"
<rottenrobbie0@...> wrote:

>
> What is the secret to successfuk Toner Transfer? I have been 
> consitently getting only partial transfers.
> 
> I have been cleaning the copper as well as I know how. Sanding, 
> ScotchBrite, and acetone.
> 
> A fer days ago I tried some test transfers on 1/16" material. After a 
> couple good transfers on that material I went to the 1/32" material I 
> need to use. Now I am only getting between 50% and 75% of the toner 
> transfered. The part that does transfer is bonding very well.
> 
> I read one place to keep the heat on it until the paper appears 
> scorched. They claimed there was no such thing a too much heat.
> 
> My iron is getting very dirty so I am now cleaning it berofe the next 
> try.
> 
> Bob Macklin
> Seattle, Wa.
>

Do you have an exact reference for the HammerMill paper you use ?
I'm living in belgium and I would like to give it a try by ordering it
on the net.

Mike

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "rdheiliger" <rdheiliger@...> wrote:

>
> I use the HammerMill Office Glossy paper. I did a search on the web 
> and bought a 300 count package for less than $10 including shipping. 
> I have tried a lot of papers and this one is the best.
> 
> I use a toner transfer tool to do the transfer, see link below. This 
> works much better than a cloths iron. Iron untill the paper turns a 
> very light brown, and the pattern can be seen thru the paper. Pay 
> attention to the edges as this seems to be an area where the heat 
> disapates more rapidly. 
> 
> http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=5734&filter=toner%20transfer
> 
> Instead of just soaking the paper off, I put the board and paper into 
> a pan of boiling water, and continue boiling untill the paper nearly 
> floats off. This takes less than 2 minutes. Then rinse under cold 
> water with a minor amount of rubbing to get the small fuzzy's off. 
> 
> I get nearly perfect transfers every time.
> 
> RD
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "eballiri" <eballiri@...> wrote:
>
> I've made several PCBs with TT and must say that the last ones are 
> getting really good.  The most important tips I've been following are 
> this:
> 
> DO's
>   1.- clean the copper well before transfering, I use thin metal wool.
>   
>   2.- try to use a SMALL Iron, like one used for neckties or for 
> travelling, since it'll be easier to handle and will have a less 
> bended heat-surface due to temperature.
> 
>   3.- Put the paper on the PCB and put the iron over it a few seconds 
> to get a good working temperature
> 
>   4.- Use the iron's EDGE (NOT it's surface) to iron the whole thing, 
> from time to time use the whole iron's surface to heat the PCB a bit 
> and continue to use the edge, this warrants that every part of the 
> drawing you are trying to transfer gets a correct amount of pressure, 
> and the correct amount of heat.
> 

Hi
I am not convinced I am getting you right on your text above.
quote" Use the iron's EDGE (NOT it's surface) " unquote

do you  mean to use the iron lateral or front sharp edge.
On top of being a sharp edge, it is curved, so a small portion of it
will make some pressure over the paper.
is that a correct understanding of your procedure???
thanks in advance

juan abba

What made it work for me was iorning with just the
tip. I can get more pressue by applying it to the tip
rather than the entire iron. I also use the full iron
to heat the board several tie during the ironing
process. I iron the paper for a full 5 minutes.

Bob Macklin
Seattle, Wa.

--- juanabba <jjose@...> wrote:

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "eballiri"
> <eballiri@...> wrote:
> >
> > I've made several PCBs with TT and must say that
> the last ones are 
> > getting really good.  The most important tips I've
> been following are 
> > this:
> > 
> > DO's
> >   1.- clean the copper well before transfering, I
> use thin metal wool.
> >   
> >   2.- try to use a SMALL Iron, like one used for
> neckties or for 
> > travelling, since it'll be easier to handle and
> will have a less 
> > bended heat-surface due to temperature.
> > 
> >   3.- Put the paper on the PCB and put the iron
> over it a few seconds 
> > to get a good working temperature
> > 
> >   4.- Use the iron's EDGE (NOT it's surface) to
> iron the whole thing, 
> > from time to time use the whole iron's surface to
> heat the PCB a bit 
> > and continue to use the edge, this warrants that
> every part of the 
> > drawing you are trying to transfer gets a correct
> amount of pressure, 
> > and the correct amount of heat.
> > 
> 
> Hi
> I am not convinced I am getting you right on your
> text above.
> quote" Use the iron's EDGE (NOT it's surface) "
> unquote
> 
> do you  mean to use the iron lateral or front sharp
> edge.
> On top of being a sharp edge, it is curved, so a
> small portion of it
> will make some pressure over the paper.
> is that a correct understanding of your procedure???
> thanks in advance
> 
> juan abba
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new
> Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> mailto:Homebrew_PCBs-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
> 
> 
>

Ok, so here it is.  I am a complete first timer, and have spent the past few
weeks amassing all the items from everyones tips, websites, and forums.  So
today was the first time I have ever created a PCB @ home, and i tried a
multitude of different ways, and have found ONE consistent way which works
99-100% of time.  In the 99% cases, its as simple as using a fine tip
SHARPIE PEN to fix.

I have tried the all expensice PRESS AND PEEL PAPER from PULSAR, PICTURE
PAPER, GLOSS PAPER, NEWSPAPER, MAGAZINE GLOSS PAPER, I have used both IRON
and HEAT ROLLER LAMINATOR.

The best results OVERALL are detailed as:

1. HP MONOCHROME LASER PRINTER - model 2015
2. 1/32 thick Epoxy Copper Clad double Sided Board (Digikey) 1 oz. thickness
3. MAGAZINE PAPER - US magazine, inside pages
4. IRON
5. ACETONE
6. PCB ETCHANT SOLUTION - RADIO SHACK (Though not real happy with this
product)

4 boards using the below links directions, with the above supplies have
given 3 perfect boards, 1 where a 1/16inch line had to be touched up with a
pen

I would alter the guys directions on this link below, to extend the ironing
time to about 2 minutes.  When ironing, i would hold the iron still for 15
seconds, then SLOWLY in a circle for 15 seconds, then back to sill for 15
and so on.  I did this for 1-2 minutes ON EACH SIDE (flipping it over after
finishing one side)

I have to say DO NOT WASTE ANY MONEY ON ALL THESE FANCY PAPERS, nothing but
a waste of $$, go buy a magazine, or if your wife read US MAGAZINE like mine
does, just grab it :)

Here is the link, and Im telling you, compared to the other 10 ways, of
paper, laminating, etc, the magazine paper took all the troubles out of it.

http://myweb.cableone.net/wheedal/pcb.htm

Shawn



On 10/29/07, Bob Macklin <rottenrobbie0@...> wrote:
>
>   What made it work for me was iorning with just the
> tip. I can get more pressue by applying it to the tip
> rather than the entire iron. I also use the full iron
> to heat the board several tie during the ironing
> process. I iron the paper for a full 5 minutes.
>
> Bob Macklin
> Seattle, Wa.
>
> --- juanabba <jjose@... <jjose%40globo.com>> wrote:
>
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "eballiri"
> > <eballiri@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > I've made several PCBs with TT and must say that
> > the last ones are
> > > getting really good. The most important tips I've
> > been following are
> > > this:
> > >
> > > DO's
> > > 1.- clean the copper well before transfering, I
> > use thin metal wool.
> > >
> > > 2.- try to use a SMALL Iron, like one used for
> > neckties or for
> > > travelling, since it'll be easier to handle and
> > will have a less
> > > bended heat-surface due to temperature.
> > >
> > > 3.- Put the paper on the PCB and put the iron
> > over it a few seconds
> > > to get a good working temperature
> > >
> > > 4.- Use the iron's EDGE (NOT it's surface) to
> > iron the whole thing,
> > > from time to time use the whole iron's surface to
> > heat the PCB a bit
> > > and continue to use the edge, this warrants that
> > every part of the
> > > drawing you are trying to transfer gets a correct
> > amount of pressure,
> > > and the correct amount of heat.
> > >
> >
> > Hi
> > I am not convinced I am getting you right on your
> > text above.
> > quote" Use the iron's EDGE (NOT it's surface) "
> > unquote
> >
> > do you mean to use the iron lateral or front sharp
> > edge.
> > On top of being a sharp edge, it is curved, so a
> > small portion of it
> > will make some pressure over the paper.
> > is that a correct understanding of your procedure???
> > thanks in advance
> >
> > juan abba
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new
> > Links, Files, and Photos:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> > mailto:Homebrew_PCBs-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com<Homebrew_PCBs-fullfeatured%40yahoogroups.com>
> >
> >
> >
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Guys,
I'm impressed with this link. I thought you guys were all talking 
ancient dip 0.1" spacing stuff wiht the TT technique. That board is 
impressive at that link. I'm going to try it.

-Lee

>I have to say DO NOT WASTE ANY MONEY ON ALL THESE FANCY PAPERS, nothing but
>a waste of $$, go buy a magazine, or if your wife read US MAGAZINE like mine
>does, just grab it :)
>Here is the link, and Im telling you, compared to the other 10 ways, of
>paper, laminating, etc, the magazine paper took all the troubles out of it.
>
><http://myweb.cableone.net/wheedal/pcb.htm>http://myweb.cableone.net/wheedal/pcb.htm
>Shawn



Lee Studley
Embedded SW/HW Eng.
Kutta Consulting, Inc.
www.kuttaconsulting.com
rstudley@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lee Studley <indigo_red@...> writes:
> I'm impressed with this link. I thought you guys were all talking
> ancient dip 0.1" spacing stuff wiht the TT technique. That board is
> impressive at that link. I'm going to try it.

0.1" is HUGE! ;-)

So yeah, go try it.  8 mil is easy with TT.  Here's more inspiration:

http://www.delorie.com/pcb/smd-challenge/old/proto-boards.html

The biggest part on that is 0805; the traces are all 8 mil.  The
smallest parts are a 0.4mm pitch TVSOP and a 01005 cap (that's 0.010"
by 0.005").

http://www.delorie.com/pcb/first.html

That's a close-up of a 01005 capacitor hand-soldered to 8 mil traces.
The copper on the right edge is for the 0.4mm TVSOP.

http://www.delorie.com/pcb/liquidtin/

A buck regulator.  The smallest parts are 0603.

Hello.
Before, I tried TT but for no avail. I read from the sites that they
used photo paper so I experimented on it. I even used four different
photo paper brands each with different kind (i.e.,gsm) just to get the
toner transfered to the copper board but all of which are a failure.
Only a few of the image is copied to the board (more or less 30%). 

Then I come to this thread and read your messages. I was really amazed
on how many people are doing it! Then I experimented using magazine
paper and it worked great. Although I do need some practice but the
results are amazing, it's now 95% copied! 

I tested several boards then removing the toner image after, washing
and cleaning then testing it again. 

I have found out that the duration of the iron (I ran it on full
power) to the image and the pressure applied are really critical.
There was once I overheated it and the result is that some parts did
not stick. It is really not on overheating it but its more likely on
getting just the right amount of pressure and duration of exposure.
And it would differ from case to case since we are not using the same
brand and power rating of iron. In my case, more practice and trial
and error on the ironing part is still needed to get a 100% result.
And I would also try reducing the width of the tracks. 

The advice on using the tip of the iron to "press" to the image is
really useful. And afterwards I placed the board on a warm and soapy
solution. 

Thanks a lot for your help guys. Before I was using presensitized
boards, although it is reliable and doesn't require such "timing with
your device," it is expensive. The TT is cheap and is really great for
hobbyist!

jeanz

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Bob Macklin <rottenrobbie0@...>
wrote:
>
> I read something on a web page about transfering the
> image with a solvent pen. I tried it with acetone and
> the image transfered very nicely.

I have seen the results of color toner transfer from paper to a t-shirt
that was done with xylene to lift the toner off its substrate.  I have
not tried it with copper.  I presume that the solvent-paper reaction is
the important one and that the toner will preferentially deposit onto
the copper.  As the original poster mentioned, fusing may still be
required.

To save you the work, here's the Wikipedia link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xylene.

Xylene is probably the most hazardous of the over-the-counter solvents. 
This puts it into the moderately-hazardous category.  It's worse than
denatured alcohol but better than toluene or benzene.  If you can safely
work with lacquer thinner, you can safely work with xylene.  It causes
contact dermatitis (wear gloves) and is a CNS depressant (wear a
VOC-filtered mask).  Use adequate ventilation, etc., etc.  If you don't
know how to work with these kinds of chemicals, then don't work with
them.  I've used them over the years, always with safety gear.

Xylene is an aromatic hydrocarbon, while acetone is a ketone.  They'll
have both similarities and differences; I can't say which is better.

I started a new thread to allow folks who would like to try this and
report their results to do so in a single place.

At 12:38 pm ((PST)) Fri Nov 30, 2007, Digest 2349 Watson Fawkes wrote:

>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Bob Macklin <rottenrobbie0@...>
>wrote:
> > I read something on a web page about transfering the
> > image with a solvent pen. [snip]
>
>I have seen the results of color toner transfer from paper to a t-shirt
>that was done with xylene to lift the toner off its substrate. [snip]
>
>I started a new thread to allow folks who would like to try this and
>report their results to do so in a single place.

According to the Digest, Yahoo Groups doesn't think so...

>Messages in this topic (41)

... or yours would have been the only message in this topic.

I suspect you _replied_ to the previous message, despite Steve's
repeated advice to start a new thread with a _new_ message :-(

Still, thanks for the thought :-)


Regards, LenW

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Watson Fawkes"
<watson.fawkes@...> wrote:
>
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Bob Macklin <rottenrobbie0@>
> wrote:
> >
> > I read something on a web page about transfering the
> > image with a solvent pen. I tried it with acetone and
> > the image transfered very nicely.
> 
> I have seen the results of color toner transfer from paper to a t-shirt
> that was done with xylene to lift the toner off its substrate. 

I made the potentially serendipitous discovery that oranges will lift
toner off paper when some juice from an orange I was peeling squirted
onto the back of a face down piece of laser printed paper,
transferring the image to my desk...

It's probably the citric acid that did it. If it will do it (without
smearing), citric acid's probably a lot less hazardous than xylene.

It is not the citric acid in the orange that dissolves the toner but the
essential oils. Millions of pounds of orange peels are steam distilled for
this solvent. It is "eco" friendly. but not as agressive as the chlorinated
solvents.

Blending pens, (with toluene) hasve been suggested for pcb transfers for a
long time. Toluene will soften and make the toner sticky. It will transfer
onto porous substrate like texlile and paper. But it is very difficult to
get a continuous film on copper, which is needed for a good reasist.

Myc

On Dec 2, 2007 1:56 PM, alioth10 <dyls@...> wrote:

>   --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "Watson Fawkes"
> <watson.fawkes@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Bob Macklin <rottenrobbie0@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > I read something on a web page about transfering the
> > > image with a solvent pen. I tried it with acetone and
> > > the image transfered very nicely.
> >
> > I have seen the results of color toner transfer from paper to a t-shirt
> > that was done with xylene to lift the toner off its substrate.
>
> I made the potentially serendipitous discovery that oranges will lift
> toner off paper when some juice from an orange I was peeling squirted
> onto the back of a face down piece of laser printed paper,
> transferring the image to my desk...
>
> It's probably the citric acid that did it. If it will do it (without
> smearing), citric acid's probably a lot less hazardous than xylene.
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Len Warner <novost@...> wrote:
> >I started a new thread to allow folks who would like to try this and
> >report their results to do so in a single place.

> I suspect you _replied_ to the previous message, despite Steve's
> repeated advice to start a new thread with a _new_ message :-(

Yes, hijacked by very old Usenet habits.