Homebrew PCBs

Hi all, maybe someone point me in a good direction here.  I am 
looking for a CNC / Milling machine to mill my own prototype PCB's 
with.  As more and more of my prototypes are SMT's, this now seems as 
a wise investment.  As I am not doing anything in production like 
quantities, just my own design/prototyping, these things can cost 
into insane amounts.

I have seen kits, and pricing ranging from $500 and up for various 
machines.

What I am wondering, does anyone have 1st hand experience with a 
desktop CNC/Milling machine I cause for my prototyping of SMT boards 
with, at a reasonable price.  $4,000 to me is just way to expensive 
for a hobbyist, though something over or around $1,000 is something I 
would consider.

Look forward to getting some feedback, and hopefully a milling 
machine very soon !!

Thanks

shawn

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "sml_caerus" <sml.caerus@...> 
wrote:
>
> Hi all, maybe someone point me in a good direction here.  I am 
> looking for a CNC / Milling machine to mill my own prototype PCB's 
> with.  As more and more of my prototypes are SMT's, this now seems 
as 
> a wise investment.  As I am not doing anything in production like 
> quantities, just my own design/prototyping, these things can cost 
> into insane amounts.
> 
> I have seen kits, and pricing ranging from $500 and up for various 
> machines.
> 
> What I am wondering, does anyone have 1st hand experience with a 
> desktop CNC/Milling machine I cause for my prototyping of SMT 
boards 
> with, at a reasonable price.  $4,000 to me is just way to 
expensive 
> for a hobbyist, though something over or around $1,000 is 
something I 
> would consider.
> 
> Look forward to getting some feedback, and hopefully a milling 
> machine very soon !!
> 
> Thanks
> 
> shawn
>
Have a look at ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/A30874-T-Tech-7000S-Quick-
Circuit-Prototyping-PCB-
Assy_W0QQitemZ330175085208QQihZ014QQcategoryZ58293QQssPageNameZWDVWQQ
rdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Q-tech starting at 250 $ buy now 999$
also ELEKTOR has a low cost kit for a cnc PCB driller
I hope this helps
Paul

On Tuesday 09 October 2007 15:37, sml_caerus wrote:
> What I am wondering, does anyone have 1st hand experience with a 
> desktop CNC/Milling machine I cause for my prototyping of SMT boards 
> with, at a reasonable price.  $4,000 to me is just way to expensive 
> for a hobbyist, though something over or around $1,000 is something I 
> would consider.

about a grand seems reasonable what size boards are you looking at making 
the price (and problems) can go up pretty fast if you need big panels 
(more than ~4" on the shortest side)

Brian
--
"Nemo me impune lacesset"

4 x 6 would be the average i guess

shawn



On 10/11/07, Brian Pitt <bfp@...> wrote:
>
>   On Tuesday 09 October 2007 15:37, sml_caerus wrote:
> > What I am wondering, does anyone have 1st hand experience with a
> > desktop CNC/Milling machine I cause for my prototyping of SMT boards
> > with, at a reasonable price. $4,000 to me is just way to expensive
> > for a hobbyist, though something over or around $1,000 is something I
> > would consider.
>
> about a grand seems reasonable what size boards are you looking at making
> the price (and problems) can go up pretty fast if you need big panels
> (more than ~4" on the shortest side)
>
> Brian
> --
> "Nemo me impune lacesset"
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, sml <sml.caerus@...> wrote:
>
> 4 x 6 would be the average i guess
> 
> shawn
> 
> 
> 
> On 10/11/07, Brian Pitt <bfp@...> wrote:
> >
> >   On Tuesday 09 October 2007 15:37, sml_caerus wrote:
> > > What I am wondering, does anyone have 1st hand experience with 
a
> > > desktop CNC/Milling machine I cause for my prototyping of SMT 
boards
> > > with, at a reasonable price. $4,000 to me is just way to 
expensive
> > > for a hobbyist, though something over or around $1,000 is 
something I
> > > would consider.
> >
> > about a grand seems reasonable what size boards are you looking 
at making
> > the price (and problems) can go up pretty fast if you need big 
panels
> > (more than ~4" on the shortest side)
> >
> > Brian
> > --
> > "Nemo me impune lacesset"
> > 
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
I suggest some used CNC driller, as EBAY
http://cgi.ebay.com/A30874-T-Tech-7000S-Quick-Circuit-Prototyping-
PCB-
Assy_W0QQitemZ330175085208QQihZ014QQcategoryZ58293QQssPageNameZWDVWQQ
rdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
for 250$, or 999$ buy now.
There is also a CNC driller kit on Elektor ( some months ago)
I have a bungard CCD driller.
Paul

Additionally, i think the biggest requirement is the accuracy, as i 
will be using a lot of TSOP/SOP packages.  I have been talking with 
someone who builds CNC's for people, and he can get .0508mm accuracy, 
and not sure if thats going to cut it when I have multiple TSOP-8 
packages and 0805 components, but may.

In the 3k range i see .01mm accuracy, so im really hoping for some 
good advice, or recommendations.

I just finished building my reflow oven (B & D Infrawave converted), 
and would like to compliment this with CNC to bang out some 
prototypes.  I dont think toner transfer is going to cut it for these 
components without a lot of touch up.

Shawn


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, sml <sml.caerus@...> wrote:
>
> 4 x 6 would be the average i guess
> 
> shawn
> 
> 
> 
> On 10/11/07, Brian Pitt <bfp@...> wrote:
> >
> >   On Tuesday 09 October 2007 15:37, sml_caerus wrote:
> > > What I am wondering, does anyone have 1st hand experience with a
> > > desktop CNC/Milling machine I cause for my prototyping of SMT 
boards
> > > with, at a reasonable price. $4,000 to me is just way to 
expensive
> > > for a hobbyist, though something over or around $1,000 is 
something I
> > > would consider.
> >
> > about a grand seems reasonable what size boards are you looking 
at making
> > the price (and problems) can go up pretty fast if you need big 
panels

> > (more than ~4" on the shortest side)
> >
> > Brian
> > --
> > "Nemo me impune lacesset"
> > 
> >
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Have you checked with Mike Beck?  He might be able to help you.

    mike@mikebeck.org
or 

    http://www.mikebeck.org/




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "sml_caerus" <sml.caerus@...> 
wrote:
>
> Additionally, i think the biggest requirement is the accuracy, as i 
> will be using a lot of TSOP/SOP packages.  I have been talking with 
> someone who builds CNC's for people, and he can get .0508mm 
accuracy, 
> and not sure if thats going to cut it when I have multiple TSOP-8 
> packages and 0805 components, but may.
> 
> In the 3k range i see .01mm accuracy, so im really hoping for some 
> good advice, or recommendations.
> 
> I just finished building my reflow oven (B & D Infrawave 
converted), 
> and would like to compliment this with CNC to bang out some 
> prototypes.  I dont think toner transfer is going to cut it for 
these 
> components without a lot of touch up.
> 
> Shawn
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, sml <sml.caerus@> wrote:
> >
> > 4 x 6 would be the average i guess
> > 
> > shawn
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On 10/11/07, Brian Pitt <bfp@> wrote:
> > >
> > >   On Tuesday 09 October 2007 15:37, sml_caerus wrote:
> > > > What I am wondering, does anyone have 1st hand experience 
with a

> > > > desktop CNC/Milling machine I cause for my prototyping of SMT 
> boards
> > > > with, at a reasonable price. $4,000 to me is just way to 
> expensive
> > > > for a hobbyist, though something over or around $1,000 is 
> something I
> > > > would consider.
> > >
> > > about a grand seems reasonable what size boards are you looking 
> at making
> > > the price (and problems) can go up pretty fast if you need big 
> panels
> > > (more than ~4" on the shortest side)
> > >
> > > Brian
> > > --
> > > "Nemo me impune lacesset"
> > > 
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

--- sml_caerus <sml.caerus@...> wrote:

> I am looking for a CNC / Milling machine to mill my own 
> prototype PCB's 
> I have seen kits, and pricing ranging from $500 and up for various 
> machines.

Got any links for these?  


> $4,000 to me is just way to expensive for a hobbyist, though 
> something over or around $1,000 is something I would consider.

I use a QuickCircuit at work, and the precision and repeatability
is fantastic.  I think it was in the neighborhood of $15K though.
The downside is that a complex board can take a terribly long 
time to mill, and you're guaranteed to go through a couple of 
milling bits at $30 apiece.  I concluded a long time ago that
for the money, you can't beat toner transfer for *hobby* PCB
fabrication.  I have a feeling that for a $500 kit you're not
going to get the precision or repeatability that you're going
to want for fine pitch SMT.  The overhead of an expensive mill
is probably not worth it to most hobbyists, unless money isn't
an object.  Even at the rates I charge for PCB's I layout and
fabricate for customers I couldn't justify the cost of the time
and overhead of a mill, and in a commercial environment by the
time you buy the machine, tooling and pay a tech $20 an hour
to run it, those PCB's will cost you hundreds apiece.  So,
consider a mill only if it gives you a capability that another
process can't give you, and be prepared to pay the price.



Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM

> 
> What I am wondering, does anyone have 1st hand experience with a 
> desktop CNC/Milling machine I cause for my prototyping of SMT boards 
> with, at a reasonable price.  $4,000 to me is just way to expensive 
> for a hobbyist, though something over or around $1,000 is something I 
> would consider.

Shawn

4 x 6 is well within the capabilities of a retro fitted seig X1 micro-mill

and it is capable of proper machining of metal for panel cut-outs etc.
or whatever.

I believe you can get retro fitting kits rather than do what I did,
and make it up as you go along.

I won't include a link as plenty of things turn up on a google search


Chris

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "sml_caerus" <sml.caerus@...> 
wrote:
>
> Hi all, maybe someone point me in a good direction here.  I am 
> looking for a CNC / Milling machine to mill my own prototype PCB's 
> with.  As more and more of my prototypes are SMT's, this now seems as 
> a wise investment.  As I am not doing anything in production like 
> quantities, just my own design/prototyping, these things can cost 
> into insane amounts.
> 
> I have seen kits, and pricing ranging from $500 and up for various 
> machines.
> 

This may be of interest: http://tinyurl.com/fjsmj

Servo system starts at $1995, includes Gerber trace isolation with 
interference checking, drilling, and board cutout software, plus 
general purpose 3D cnc routing capability.

Fred Smith - IMService
http://www.cadcamcadcam.com

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "sml_caerus"
<sml.caerus@...> 
wrote:
>
> Hi all, maybe someone point me in a good direction here. 
I am 
> looking for a CNC / Milling machine to mill my own
prototype PCB's 
> with.  As more and more of my prototypes are SMT's, this
now seems 
as 
> a wise investment.  As I am not doing anything in
production like 
> quantities, just my own design/prototyping, these things
can cost 
> into insane amounts.
> 
> I have seen kits, and pricing ranging from $500 and up
for various 
> machines.
> 
> What I am wondering, does anyone have 1st hand experience
with a 
> desktop CNC/Milling machine I cause for my prototyping of
SMT 
boards 
> with, at a reasonable price.  $4,000 to me is just way to

expensive 
> for a hobbyist, though something over or around $1,000 is

something I 
> would consider.
> 
> Look forward to getting some feedback, and hopefully a
milling 
> machine very soon !!
> 
> Thanks
> 
> shawn
>

check out  http://www.fireballcnc.com/
the fireball CNC is a MDF/plastics router that should be
able to do 12/12, perhaps 10/10 with a proper tool (Dremel
will not reach it)
machine is very sturdy and can be made very precise. comes
without motors and controller. it's fun to assemble
yourself! and far under 1K$.
look at the photos in
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Fireballcnc/photos/
in the 'Fireballcnc' discussion group.




      ____________________________________________________________________________________
Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect.  Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7

Here's a picture of what's being pursued with
the fireball project.....

http://www.fireballcnc.com/access/

Save the image and then decrease the size of it to
get a better idea.

It's a cheap home built MDF machine kit. Takes about
a week to make one. $375 at this point.

I won't "spam" this list with more info. Anyone
interested can write me at the address listed at
fireballcnc.com

Thanks Herbert!
John

> check out  http://www.fireballcnc.com/
> the fireball CNC is a MDF/plastics router that should be
> able to do 12/12, perhaps 10/10 with a proper tool (Dremel
> will not reach it)
> machine is very sturdy and can be made very precise. comes
> without motors and controller. it's fun to assemble
> yourself! and far under 1K$.
> look at the photos in
> http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Fireballcnc/photos/
> in the 'Fireballcnc' discussion group.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>      
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect.  Join Yahoo!'s
user panel and lay it on us.
http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
>

Thanks, looks quite interesting, but looking to get something "ready to
roll" so to speak

shawn



On 10/12/07, John Hansford <kz1927@...> wrote:
>
>   Here's a picture of what's being pursued with
> the fireball project.....
>
> http://www.fireballcnc.com/access/
>
> Save the image and then decrease the size of it to
> get a better idea.
>
> It's a cheap home built MDF machine kit. Takes about
> a week to make one. $375 at this point.
>
> I won't "spam" this list with more info. Anyone
> interested can write me at the address listed at
> fireballcnc.com
>
> Thanks Herbert!
> John
>
> > check out http://www.fireballcnc.com/
> > the fireball CNC is a MDF/plastics router that should be
> > able to do 12/12, perhaps 10/10 with a proper tool (Dremel
> > will not reach it)
> > machine is very sturdy and can be made very precise. comes
> > without motors and controller. it's fun to assemble
> > yourself! and far under 1K$.
> > look at the photos in
> > http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Fireballcnc/photos/
> > in the 'Fireballcnc' discussion group.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> __________________________________________________________
> > Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s
> user panel and lay it on us.
> http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
> >
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]