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BGA Soldering: Hot air rework station

BGA Soldering: Hot air rework station

2007-10-02 by electronut

Recently, I started making electronic circuits as a hobby and now
I want to do more complex stuff like FPGAs.
For that I need to solder BGAs. I'm considering buying a hot air 
rework station. So far I'm looking at either 
   Aoyue 968 http://www.aoyue.com/en/ArticleShow.asp?ArticleID=359
or
   Aoyue 99* http://www.aoyue.com/en/ArticleShow.asp?ArticleID=375
  The first one has a digital display and a soldering iron while the 
other one has a manipulator.
  I already have a good quality soldering iron. Do you think the 
manipulator would be more useful ?

  The goal is to be able to build prototypes with BGAs (maybe up to 
500 pins). I only need to build like two boards a year for myself, 
and I am not concerned about the time it takes, as long as I can be 
reasonably sure that it will work.
  Or maybe, I should make a temp controlled toaster oven and 
dispense with the rework station already.

  Could someone with more experience share their advices ?

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] BGA Soldering: Hot air rework station

2007-10-02 by Norm Carlberg

I also would like to prototype BGA's.

.review of the (dirt cheap) Aoyue hot air station 
http://www.picbasic.org/forum/showthread.php?t=7948

A hot plate may also work.
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/present.php?p=Reflow%20Skillet

Norm
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: electronut 
  To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 1:52 PM
  Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] BGA Soldering: Hot air rework station


  Recently, I started making electronic circuits as a hobby and now
  I want to do more complex stuff like FPGAs.
  For that I need to solder BGAs. I'm considering buying a hot air 
  rework station. So far I'm looking at either 
  Aoyue 968 http://www.aoyue.com/en/ArticleShow.asp?ArticleID=359
  or
  Aoyue 99* http://www.aoyue.com/en/ArticleShow.asp?ArticleID=375
  The first one has a digital display and a soldering iron while the 
  other one has a manipulator.
  I already have a good quality soldering iron. Do you think the 
  manipulator would be more useful ?

  The goal is to be able to build prototypes with BGAs (maybe up to 
  500 pins). I only need to build like two boards a year for myself, 
  and I am not concerned about the time it takes, as long as I can be 
  reasonably sure that it will work.
  Or maybe, I should make a temp controlled toaster oven and 
  dispense with the rework station already.

  Could someone with more experience share their advices ?



   

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] BGA Soldering: Hot air rework station

2007-10-03 by Harvey White

On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 18:52:12 -0000, you wrote:

>Recently, I started making electronic circuits as a hobby and now
>I want to do more complex stuff like FPGAs.

That's ok, and presumably they don't come in PLCC carriers (a shame),
but you might not want to use BGA's simply because of the soldering
problem.  Any other alternatives?

No opinions otherwise, you're far ahead of my aspirations in this
respect.  (if not others).

Harvey
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>For that I need to solder BGAs. I'm considering buying a hot air 
>rework station. So far I'm looking at either 
>   Aoyue 968 http://www.aoyue.com/en/ArticleShow.asp?ArticleID=359
>or
>   Aoyue 99* http://www.aoyue.com/en/ArticleShow.asp?ArticleID=375
>  The first one has a digital display and a soldering iron while the 
>other one has a manipulator.
>  I already have a good quality soldering iron. Do you think the 
>manipulator would be more useful ?
>
>  The goal is to be able to build prototypes with BGAs (maybe up to 
>500 pins). I only need to build like two boards a year for myself, 
>and I am not concerned about the time it takes, as long as I can be 
>reasonably sure that it will work.
>  Or maybe, I should make a temp controlled toaster oven and 
>dispense with the rework station already.
>
>  Could someone with more experience share their advices ?
>

Re: BGA Soldering: Hot air rework station

2007-10-03 by timbomcnuckle

hey!, I haven't used a hot-air station yet but I have done the
over-reflow a bunch fo times and I would take the time investment into
making your own rather than the alternative- especially if you are
only oding a few boards per year! Elektor did a great version of the
taoster oven re-flow controlled with an AVR I think, lcd display,
programmable curves, precision control (within reason),, I think the
only complaint was lack of insulation, but you can always stuff with
rockwool or something.

 I have used old style black&decker toaster-oven without any
modification a few times but I got a better one now that I still need
to finish. gluk.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Harvey White <madyn@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 18:52:12 -0000, you wrote:
> 
> >Recently, I started making electronic circuits as a hobby and now
> >I want to do more complex stuff like FPGAs.
> 
> That's ok, and presumably they don't come in PLCC carriers (a shame),
> but you might not want to use BGA's simply because of the soldering
> problem.  Any other alternatives?
> 
> No opinions otherwise, you're far ahead of my aspirations in this
> respect.  (if not others).
> 
> Harvey
> 
> 
> >For that I need to solder BGAs. I'm considering buying a hot air 
> >rework station. So far I'm looking at either 
> >   Aoyue 968 http://www.aoyue.com/en/ArticleShow.asp?ArticleID=359
> >or
> >   Aoyue 99* http://www.aoyue.com/en/ArticleShow.asp?ArticleID=375
> >  The first one has a digital display and a soldering iron while the 
> >other one has a manipulator.
> >  I already have a good quality soldering iron. Do you think the 
> >manipulator would be more useful ?
> >
> >  The goal is to be able to build prototypes with BGAs (maybe up to 
> >500 pins). I only need to build like two boards a year for myself, 
> >and I am not concerned about the time it takes, as long as I can be 
> >reasonably sure that it will work.
> >  Or maybe, I should make a temp controlled toaster oven and 
> >dispense with the rework station already.
> >
> >  Could someone with more experience share their advices ?
> >
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] BGA Soldering: Hot air rework station

2007-10-03 by Leon

----- Original Message ----- 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "electronut" <electronut@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 7:52 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] BGA Soldering: Hot air rework station


> Recently, I started making electronic circuits as a hobby and now
> I want to do more complex stuff like FPGAs.
> For that I need to solder BGAs. I'm considering buying a hot air
> rework station. So far I'm looking at either
>   Aoyue 968 http://www.aoyue.com/en/ArticleShow.asp?ArticleID=359
> or
>   Aoyue 99* http://www.aoyue.com/en/ArticleShow.asp?ArticleID=375
>  The first one has a digital display and a soldering iron while the
> other one has a manipulator.
>  I already have a good quality soldering iron. Do you think the
> manipulator would be more useful ?
>
>  The goal is to be able to build prototypes with BGAs (maybe up to
> 500 pins). I only need to build like two boards a year for myself,
> and I am not concerned about the time it takes, as long as I can be
> reasonably sure that it will work.
>  Or maybe, I should make a temp controlled toaster oven and
> dispense with the rework station already.
>
>  Could someone with more experience share their advices ?

If you are only doing a couple a year it might make sense to get them done 
professionally, it could work out cheaper than buying the equipment.

Leon
--
Leon Heller
Amateur radio call-sign G1HSM
Yaesu FT-817ND and FT-857D transceivers
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
leon355@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

Re: BGA Soldering: Hot air rework station

2007-10-03 by pgdion1

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "electronut" <electronut@...> wrote:
>
> Recently, I started making electronic circuits as a hobby and now
> I want to do more complex stuff like FPGAs.
> For that I need to solder BGAs. I'm considering buying a hot air 
> rework station. 


Personally, I avoid BGA's like the plague, even for work. Unless I
need all of the IO pins, I stick to other packages. BGA's can be
difficult to solder well. The pads have to be perfect (very small
geometries), chip alignment right on, reflow done just right, and on
top of that, the balls on the BGA themselves need to be prepped
properly. We have a special rework person at work just for re-balling
BGA's.  Then after mounting, it's difficult to inspect your work and
impossible to do any touch up. (again at work, we have special
microscopes to peek under the chips and also x-ray machines). It can
be done but it's hard and reliability is a big problem. Also, if your
board flexes at all, that can crack the BGA joints as they have no give.

My suggestion, stick to the TQFP / PQFP packages. I like to stay with
TQFP for home pcb if I can. The 100 and 144 pin TQFP is actually
pretty easy to work with. You can get up to 240 pins and 20K LE's with
240K of RAM.  Only if I needed bigger than that, would I think about
doing BGA (and I can't afford a part bigger than that anyways ;-) ).

That's my personal suggestion.
Phil

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: BGA Soldering: Hot air rework station

2007-10-03 by Mark Brueggemann

--- pgdion1 <pgdion1@...> wrote:

 "electronut" <electronut@... wrote:

> > Recently, I started making electronic circuits as a hobby and now
> > I want to do more complex stuff like FPGAs.
> > For that I need to solder BGAs. I'm considering buying a hot air 
> > rework station. 

Never mind getting them soldered down, it's getting a PWB laid
out that's the PITA.  Commercial board houses do it all the time
but I can't think of any homebrew process that you coud get
all those nets routed out on a couple layers.



Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM

Re: BGA Soldering: Hot air rework station

2007-10-03 by Stephanie Ann Thompson

I don't believe a simple hot air gun setup will work for a BGA part 
with 500 pads. You need to preheat the board, and use a bottom heater 
to ramp up the heat as well as a top heater. And with more products 
going Lead Free, it will take a lot more heat and a lot more complex 
heating profile to properly reflow the parts.
I had worked on a BGA machine before, the big expensive automatic 
type... Even then it would take a LONG time to properly create a 
reflow profile to get maybe 95% success rate. (of course we were 
working with like 1000+ pads) I can give you some tips and pointers, 
but for only doing 1-2 a year, it can get pretty expensive 
(especially with FPGA's) and frustrating when you fail at reflowing 
the part.
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "timbomcnuckle" <jaydag71@...> 
wrote:
>
>  hey!, I haven't used a hot-air station yet but I have done the
> over-reflow a bunch fo times and I would take the time investment 
into
> making your own rather than the alternative- especially if you are
> only oding a few boards per year! Elektor did a great version of the
> taoster oven re-flow controlled with an AVR I think, lcd display,
> programmable curves, precision control (within reason),, I think the
> only complaint was lack of insulation, but you can always stuff with
> rockwool or something.
> 
>  I have used old style black&decker toaster-oven without any
> modification a few times but I got a better one now that I still 
need
> to finish. gluk.
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Harvey White <madyn@> wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 18:52:12 -0000, you wrote:
> > 
> > >Recently, I started making electronic circuits as a hobby and now
> > >I want to do more complex stuff like FPGAs.
> > 
> > That's ok, and presumably they don't come in PLCC carriers (a 
shame),
> > but you might not want to use BGA's simply because of the 
soldering
> > problem.  Any other alternatives?
> > 
> > No opinions otherwise, you're far ahead of my aspirations in this
> > respect.  (if not others).
> > 
> > Harvey
> > 
> > 
> > >For that I need to solder BGAs. I'm considering buying a hot air 
> > >rework station. So far I'm looking at either 
> > >   Aoyue 968 http://www.aoyue.com/en/ArticleShow.asp?
ArticleID=359
> > >or
> > >   Aoyue 99* http://www.aoyue.com/en/ArticleShow.asp?
ArticleID=375
> > >  The first one has a digital display and a soldering iron while 
the 
> > >other one has a manipulator.
> > >  I already have a good quality soldering iron. Do you think the 
> > >manipulator would be more useful ?
> > >
> > >  The goal is to be able to build prototypes with BGAs (maybe up 
to 
> > >500 pins). I only need to build like two boards a year for 
myself, 
> > >and I am not concerned about the time it takes, as long as I can 
be 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > >reasonably sure that it will work.
> > >  Or maybe, I should make a temp controlled toaster oven and 
> > >dispense with the rework station already.
> > >
> > >  Could someone with more experience share their advices ?
> > >
> >
>

Re: BGA Soldering: Hot air rework station

2007-10-03 by electronut

Stephanie, the parts I'm looking at are about BGAs with 400-500 
balls.
 You seem to know a lot more than me about the process. Any tips you 
can share are much appreciated.

 timbomcnuckle: what king of PCBs have you done with your reflow 
oven ? What kind of parts have you done ? Have you done BGAs, or 
0.5mm TQFP ? Did you do two layers PCBs ?
 Please share your successes.



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stephanie Ann Thompson" 
<setlahs@...> wrote:
>
> I don't believe a simple hot air gun setup will work for a BGA 
part 
> with 500 pads. You need to preheat the board, and use a bottom 
heater 
> to ramp up the heat as well as a top heater. And with more 
products 
> going Lead Free, it will take a lot more heat and a lot more 
complex 
> heating profile to properly reflow the parts.
> I had worked on a BGA machine before, the big expensive automatic 
> type... Even then it would take a LONG time to properly create a 
> reflow profile to get maybe 95% success rate. (of course we were 
> working with like 1000+ pads) I can give you some tips and 
pointers, 
> but for only doing 1-2 a year, it can get pretty expensive 
> (especially with FPGA's) and frustrating when you fail at 
reflowing 
> the part.
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "timbomcnuckle" <jaydag71@> 
> wrote:
> >
> >  hey!, I haven't used a hot-air station yet but I have done the
> > over-reflow a bunch fo times and I would take the time 
investment 
> into
> > making your own rather than the alternative- especially if you 
are
> > only oding a few boards per year! Elektor did a great version of 
the
> > taoster oven re-flow controlled with an AVR I think, lcd display,
> > programmable curves, precision control (within reason),, I think 
the
> > only complaint was lack of insulation, but you can always stuff 
with
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > rockwool or something.
> > 
> >  I have used old style black&decker toaster-oven without any
> > modification a few times but I got a better one now that I still 
> need
> > to finish. gluk.
> >

Re: BGA Soldering: Hot air rework station

2007-10-03 by electronut

Thanks to all for the useful suggestions. Unfortunately I'm stuck 
with BGAs for the FPGAs I want.

 Mark: I don't need to route all pins, only about 100 so I only need 
to route the outermost rows.

 Norm and timbomcnuckle: thanks for the links, I will take a look at 
them.

 Leon: I thought about having them done professionally but all the 
quotes I got were like $500 for one board. The thing is I'll 
probably need 2-3 iterations to make my design work ... quite a lot 
of money for a hobby. The equipment is not expensive though (the hot 
air stations are Chinese).
 If you know a place where I can get a resonable price, please let 
me know. It might be just that they solder the BGAs (1-2 per board) 
and I would manually solder the rest.
 
 Right now I'm leaning towards getting a Chinese hot air station AND 
getting a toaster oven to "upgrade" to a reflow oven.

 Any more suggestions, please keep them coming. Probably other 
members wanted at some point to use BGAs but stopped because they 
thought it would be too difficult.




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Mark Brueggemann <qrq_cw@...> 
wrote:
>
> 
> --- pgdion1 <pgdion1@...> wrote:
> 
>  "electronut" <electronut@ wrote:
> 
> > > Recently, I started making electronic circuits as a hobby and 
now
> > > I want to do more complex stuff like FPGAs.
> > > For that I need to solder BGAs. I'm considering buying a hot 
air 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > > rework station. 
> 
> Never mind getting them soldered down, it's getting a PWB laid
> out that's the PITA.  Commercial board houses do it all the time
> but I can't think of any homebrew process that you coud get
> all those nets routed out on a couple layers.
> 
> 
> 
> Mark K5LXP
> Albuquerque, NM
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: BGA Soldering: Hot air rework station

2007-10-03 by Leon

----- Original Message ----- 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "electronut" <electronut@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 8:58 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: BGA Soldering: Hot air rework station


> Thanks to all for the useful suggestions. Unfortunately I'm stuck
> with BGAs for the FPGAs I want.
>
> Mark: I don't need to route all pins, only about 100 so I only need
> to route the outermost rows.
>
> Norm and timbomcnuckle: thanks for the links, I will take a look at
> them.
>
> Leon: I thought about having them done professionally but all the
> quotes I got were like $500 for one board. The thing is I'll
> probably need 2-3 iterations to make my design work ... quite a lot
> of money for a hobby. The equipment is not expensive though (the hot
> air stations are Chinese).
> If you know a place where I can get a resonable price, please let
> me know. It might be just that they solder the BGAs (1-2 per board)
> and I would manually solder the rest.

I've been quoted about \ufffd60 ($120) for two boards. I've had a couple of BGAs 
assembled by the same company but they were Telit GSM/GPS modules without 
real solder balls and they needed to get a mini-stencil made, which was 
rather expensive.

Leon
--
Leon Heller
Amateur radio call-sign G1HSM
Yaesu FT-817ND and FT-857D transceivers
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
leon355@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

Re: BGA Soldering: Hot air rework station

2007-10-04 by Andrew

> Leon wrote:
> <SNIP>
> but they were Telit GSM/GPS modules 
> without real solder balls and they
> needed to get a mini-stencil made,
> which was rather expensive.

Leon, was it the 863 or the 864 ?

If it was the 864 - how hobbiest
frinedly would you say they are ?
(The 863 doesnt look too scarey)

Re: BGA Soldering: Hot air rework station

2007-10-04 by timbomcnuckle

, umn, I baked some freescale zigbee's at home in the kitchen oven a
while back:(. I think they all worked but one or 2. In my tiny toaster
I've done all sorts of stuff. I think the largest and hardest was
mcf5208 coldfire (along with more zigbee.)

 I always use it to salvage odds and ends from old stuff too- to my
newer salvaged rotisery broiler I've made a quick wireframe 'saddle'
that hangs from the rotisery, fashioned a kind of 'cam' so the parts
drop from the boards without my having to interfere. I like taht
better. its bigger than my other toaster but needs lots of work to
turn into a real oven- whereas at least the smaller one has more
control unmodified.

 I usually do everything by hand if there is even a sliver of pad
exposed- sometimes even without any exposed. mostly just small
pincount qfn, dfn, etc but always do my qfp's by hand with the cool
'manual wave solder' technique taht my old boss taught me- a true guru
, and self taught!

 pcbs I do 1 or 2 sided, the quality is better than most I think but
probably take a lot longer than most as well. still making my own fake
vias tho, so that really sucks.

 I've been busy working and farting around with linux lately so
haven't really been doing much design work,although i'm still always
piecing something together in my hed. i wish I could remember what- jd
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "electronut" <electronut@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>  Stephanie, the parts I'm looking at are about BGAs with 400-500 
> balls.
>  You seem to know a lot more than me about the process. Any tips you 
> can share are much appreciated.
> 
>  timbomcnuckle: what king of PCBs have you done with your reflow 
> oven ? What kind of parts have you done ? Have you done BGAs, or 
> 0.5mm TQFP ? Did you do two layers PCBs ?
>  Please share your successes.
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stephanie Ann Thompson" 
> <setlahs@> wrote:
> >
> > I don't believe a simple hot air gun setup will work for a BGA 
> part 
> > with 500 pads. You need to preheat the board, and use a bottom 
> heater 
> > to ramp up the heat as well as a top heater. And with more 
> products 
> > going Lead Free, it will take a lot more heat and a lot more 
> complex 
> > heating profile to properly reflow the parts.
> > I had worked on a BGA machine before, the big expensive automatic 
> > type... Even then it would take a LONG time to properly create a 
> > reflow profile to get maybe 95% success rate. (of course we were 
> > working with like 1000+ pads) I can give you some tips and 
> pointers, 
> > but for only doing 1-2 a year, it can get pretty expensive 
> > (especially with FPGA's) and frustrating when you fail at 
> reflowing 
> > the part.
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "timbomcnuckle" <jaydag71@> 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >  hey!, I haven't used a hot-air station yet but I have done the
> > > over-reflow a bunch fo times and I would take the time 
> investment 
> > into
> > > making your own rather than the alternative- especially if you 
> are
> > > only oding a few boards per year! Elektor did a great version of 
> the
> > > taoster oven re-flow controlled with an AVR I think, lcd display,
> > > programmable curves, precision control (within reason),, I think 
> the
> > > only complaint was lack of insulation, but you can always stuff 
> with
> > > rockwool or something.
> > > 
> > >  I have used old style black&decker toaster-oven without any
> > > modification a few times but I got a better one now that I still 
> > need
> > > to finish. gluk.
> > >
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: BGA Soldering: Hot air rework station

2007-10-04 by Leon

----- Original Message ----- 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 2:48 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: BGA Soldering: Hot air rework station


>> Leon wrote:
>> <SNIP>
>> but they were Telit GSM/GPS modules
>> without real solder balls and they
>> needed to get a mini-stencil made,
>> which was rather expensive.
>
> Leon, was it the 863 or the 864 ?
>
> If it was the 864 - how hobbiest
> frinedly would you say they are ?
> (The 863 doesnt look too scarey)

GE863. As I said, it doesn't actually have solder balls, which means that it 
needs solder paste and a stencil. It's actually a lot harder to use than 
real BGAs.

Leon

Re: BGA Soldering: Hot air rework station

2007-10-04 by Stephanie Ann Thompson

Sure thing. :)
The machines I used to use were Summit 1200 and 1800 BGA stations. 
They had a fine adjustment for placement, and also used a prism 
system. Some really cool stuff. The balls were really tiny, like 1/3 
mil or smaller. anything larger became really easy as the solder 
balls were further apart.
The best thing to do before attempting to do a part, is to use a 
dummy board. Basically an exact replica of the board you wanna do, 
minus the parts. for the most accuracy drill holes where the part 
will be placed. one hole at each corner roughly 3-5mm away from the 
edge, and one exactly in the middle. Place a thermalcouple in each 
hole you drilled, and glue it in with high temp epoxy, or use some of 
that high temp tape if you wanna save the thermal couples. sorry i 
forget what it was called, but it was expensive, and looked this 
weird orange color. You will need a temp logger to log all of the 
temps at once, and graph them.
Next look at the manufacturer specs. if they're good, they'll list 
the reflow profile in the device specs
now you're ready to test a profile. it will be a rough profile 
because you won't have a part on the board. The profile will change 
once you add a part. if the manufacturer gave you a profile for the 
board, then start out with that.
Now lets hope the machine you get will have some temperature 
controll, like control over temperature ramping and hold times. I've 
looked around and the cheapest way for that is to use a reflow oven. 
I haven't seen any hot air wands that support temperature profiles.
The best trick for this is to buy an oven and outfit it with a 
controller. That is unless you want to spend 5000$ on a standalone 
station.
Preheating the board is a very important step. Preheating the board 
too long is a waste of time, though rarely will it ever damage the 
board. Preheating it too short then the board won't have enough heat 
soaked in it, and will require the profile to be much hotter. too hot 
and it will scorch the board and warp it.
also, it's best to cycle the board at a low temp, like 150C for 5 -10 
mins, and let it cool a bit or so for 5 mins before starting the 
profile. Thiw will remove water vapor from the layers and prevent 
bubbling/pealing.
Next is ramping the temperature up. instead of shocking the board 
with 400C or so, you want to ramp up the temperature gradually, 
usually a period of 60-120 seconds. Most places will tell you not to 
ramp the board faster then 3-6C a second. Any faster and the board 
will warp.After ramping up, it's good to have another preheat at the 
much higher temp, but still below the reflow point, for about 30 
seconds or so. this lets the board temp stabalize. then finally you 
ramp up the temp again, this time really quickly and up to the reflow 
temperate (actual temp on the sensor should be around 10-15C higher 
the the reflow point of the solder. the reflow time will vary from 30-
60 seconds. this part takes trial and error.
after that bring the temp down, and then ramp the temperature down 
using the same gradian as before, this will prevent warping and 
cracking.

Umm and there you have it. It's better yet if you have a part on the 
dummy board. Preferably a bad part.
If you go the way of using a hot air gun, USE A HOT PLATE to preheat 
the board.
As for placing the part, good luck. you'll need to find a way to do 
it by hand unless you're a mechanical engineer and rig up your own 
pick and place.
before placing the part down, make sure the PCB is really clean. Buy 
some really good flux paste (the one we used came in syringes, was 
like 16$ each, had a high viscosity, was very sticky. This kept the 
part from moving around. The pads need to be pretinned for best 
effectiveness, but have ZERO excess solder on them, it needs to be 
flat or the part will slide down. the amound of flux on them should 
be just enough to get the part to stick. really, not a whole lot 
needed.

Hope this helps.
-Steph
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "electronut" <electronut@...> 
wrote:
>
>  Stephanie, the parts I'm looking at are about BGAs with 400-500 
> balls.
>  You seem to know a lot more than me about the process. Any tips 
you 
> can share are much appreciated.
> 
>  timbomcnuckle: what king of PCBs have you done with your reflow 
> oven ? What kind of parts have you done ? Have you done BGAs, or 
> 0.5mm TQFP ? Did you do two layers PCBs ?
>  Please share your successes.
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stephanie Ann Thompson" 
> <setlahs@> wrote:
> >
> > I don't believe a simple hot air gun setup will work for a BGA 
> part 
> > with 500 pads. You need to preheat the board, and use a bottom 
> heater 
> > to ramp up the heat as well as a top heater. And with more 
> products 
> > going Lead Free, it will take a lot more heat and a lot more 
> complex 
> > heating profile to properly reflow the parts.
> > I had worked on a BGA machine before, the big expensive automatic 
> > type... Even then it would take a LONG time to properly create a 
> > reflow profile to get maybe 95% success rate. (of course we were 
> > working with like 1000+ pads) I can give you some tips and 
> pointers, 
> > but for only doing 1-2 a year, it can get pretty expensive 
> > (especially with FPGA's) and frustrating when you fail at 
> reflowing 
> > the part.
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "timbomcnuckle" <jaydag71@> 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >  hey!, I haven't used a hot-air station yet but I have done the
> > > over-reflow a bunch fo times and I would take the time 
> investment 
> > into
> > > making your own rather than the alternative- especially if you 
> are
> > > only oding a few boards per year! Elektor did a great version 
of 
> the
> > > taoster oven re-flow controlled with an AVR I think, lcd 
display,
> > > programmable curves, precision control (within reason),, I 
think 
> the
> > > only complaint was lack of insulation, but you can always stuff 
> with
> > > rockwool or something.
> > > 
> > >  I have used old style black&decker toaster-oven without any
> > > modification a few times but I got a better one now that I 
still 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > need
> > > to finish. gluk.
> > >
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: BGA Soldering: Hot air rework station

2007-10-04 by Stefan Trethan

Kapton tape, i assume.

ST
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 10/4/07, Stephanie Ann Thompson <setlahs@...> wrote:
> or use some of
> that high temp tape if you wanna save the thermal couples. sorry i
> forget what it was called, but it was expensive, and looked this
> weird orange color.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: BGA Soldering: Hot air rework station

2007-10-04 by Mark Brueggemann

--- electronut <electronut@...> wrote:

>  Thanks to all for the useful suggestions. Unfortunately I'm stuck 
> with BGAs for the FPGAs I want.

Have you considered using some of the BGA adapter boards, and
then routing your own treating the adapter board as an "IC"?

<http://twinind.com/catalog.php?id=8>
<http://www.schmartboard.com/index.asp?page=products_bga>

Just a thought.



Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM

Re: BGA Soldering: Hot air rework station

2007-10-04 by electronut

Leon,

   Thanks for details. Can you share the name of the company that 
made the boards? Incidentally, I'm also in UK (London).
   Btw., if you know several good companies in UK (or Europe) that 
do PCBs and/or assembly work, please let us know who they are since 
I think others might be interested.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Leon" <leon355@...> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 2:48 AM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: BGA Soldering: Hot air rework station
> 
> 
> >> Leon wrote:
> >> <SNIP>
> >> but they were Telit GSM/GPS modules
> >> without real solder balls and they
> >> needed to get a mini-stencil made,
> >> which was rather expensive.
> >
> > Leon, was it the 863 or the 864 ?
> >
> > If it was the 864 - how hobbiest
> > frinedly would you say they are ?
> > (The 863 doesnt look too scarey)
> 
> GE863. As I said, it doesn't actually have solder balls, which 
means that it 
> needs solder paste and a stencil. It's actually a lot harder to 
use than 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> real BGAs.
> 
> Leon
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: BGA Soldering: Hot air rework station

2007-10-04 by Leon

----- Original Message ----- 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "electronut" <electronut@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 8:59 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: BGA Soldering: Hot air rework station


>
> Leon,
>
>   Thanks for details. Can you share the name of the company that
> made the boards? Incidentally, I'm also in UK (London).
>   Btw., if you know several good companies in UK (or Europe) that
> do PCBs and/or assembly work, please let us know who they are since
> I think others might be interested.

I get most of my boards (apart from the home-made ones, of course) made by 
PCB-Pool.

The assembly company is Active-PCB in Reading:

http://www.active-pcb.com/

Leon

Re: BGA Soldering: Hot air rework station

2007-10-04 by electronut

Steph,

 Thanks for the excellent advice. It's really usefull for a hobbist 
like me (or others on this forum) to talk to someone who has done it 
professionally.
 The suggestion to drill holes in a trial board and put 
thermocouples in them is very interesting and I haven't seen it 
anywhere else. 
 I'm thinking of converting a toaster oven to a "reflow oven". There 
are several sites on the Web that describe how to do that. A MAX6675 
can convert the temp into a digital signal that can be fed to a 
small microcontroller or to a PC.
 Probably, I'll do just one thermocouple for starters unless you 
really think I should do all 5.

 But I hadn't yet considered that fact that the board might warp 
slightly which would stress the BGA. Thanks for pointing that out 
:-).
 So I thought a jig like this might be useful when soldering with 
hot air: 
http://aoyue.de/en/Aoyue_328_Working_Platform_smd_Rework_ESD_Tool.htm
 What do you think ?

 Any other thoughts on the toaster "reflow oven" ?
 


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stephanie Ann Thompson" 
<setlahs@...> wrote:
>
> Sure thing. :)
> The machines I used to use were Summit 1200 and 1800 BGA stations. 
> They had a fine adjustment for placement, and also used a prism 
> system. Some really cool stuff. The balls were really tiny, like 
1/3 
> mil or smaller. anything larger became really easy as the solder 
> balls were further apart.
> The best thing to do before attempting to do a part, is to use a 
> dummy board. Basically an exact replica of the board you wanna do, 
> minus the parts. for the most accuracy drill holes where the part 
> will be placed. one hole at each corner roughly 3-5mm away from 
the 
> edge, and one exactly in the middle. Place a thermalcouple in each 
> hole you drilled, and glue it in with high temp epoxy, or use some 
of 
> that high temp tape if you wanna save the thermal couples. sorry i 
> forget what it was called, but it was expensive, and looked this 
> weird orange color. You will need a temp logger to log all of the 
> temps at once, and graph them.
> Next look at the manufacturer specs. if they're good, they'll list 
> the reflow profile in the device specs
> now you're ready to test a profile. it will be a rough profile 
> because you won't have a part on the board. The profile will 
change 
> once you add a part. if the manufacturer gave you a profile for 
the 
> board, then start out with that.
> Now lets hope the machine you get will have some temperature 
> controll, like control over temperature ramping and hold times. 
I've 
> looked around and the cheapest way for that is to use a reflow 
oven. 
> I haven't seen any hot air wands that support temperature profiles.
> The best trick for this is to buy an oven and outfit it with a 
> controller. That is unless you want to spend 5000$ on a standalone 
> station.
> Preheating the board is a very important step. Preheating the 
board 
> too long is a waste of time, though rarely will it ever damage the 
> board. Preheating it too short then the board won't have enough 
heat 
> soaked in it, and will require the profile to be much hotter. too 
hot 
> and it will scorch the board and warp it.
> also, it's best to cycle the board at a low temp, like 150C for 5 -
10 
> mins, and let it cool a bit or so for 5 mins before starting the 
> profile. Thiw will remove water vapor from the layers and prevent 
> bubbling/pealing.
> Next is ramping the temperature up. instead of shocking the board 
> with 400C or so, you want to ramp up the temperature gradually, 
> usually a period of 60-120 seconds. Most places will tell you not 
to 
> ramp the board faster then 3-6C a second. Any faster and the board 
> will warp.After ramping up, it's good to have another preheat at 
the 
> much higher temp, but still below the reflow point, for about 30 
> seconds or so. this lets the board temp stabalize. then finally 
you 
> ramp up the temp again, this time really quickly and up to the 
reflow 
> temperate (actual temp on the sensor should be around 10-15C 
higher 
> the the reflow point of the solder. the reflow time will vary from 
30-
> 60 seconds. this part takes trial and error.
> after that bring the temp down, and then ramp the temperature down 
> using the same gradian as before, this will prevent warping and 
> cracking.
> 
> Umm and there you have it. It's better yet if you have a part on 
the 
> dummy board. Preferably a bad part.
> If you go the way of using a hot air gun, USE A HOT PLATE to 
preheat 
> the board.
> As for placing the part, good luck. you'll need to find a way to 
do 
> it by hand unless you're a mechanical engineer and rig up your own 
> pick and place.
> before placing the part down, make sure the PCB is really clean. 
Buy 
> some really good flux paste (the one we used came in syringes, was 
> like 16$ each, had a high viscosity, was very sticky. This kept 
the 
> part from moving around. The pads need to be pretinned for best 
> effectiveness, but have ZERO excess solder on them, it needs to be 
> flat or the part will slide down. the amound of flux on them 
should 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> be just enough to get the part to stick. really, not a whole lot 
> needed.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> -Steph

Re: BGA Soldering: Hot air rework station

2007-10-04 by electronut

Mark,

 Nice boards, I haven't seen anything like that before.
 There are also some that look like a small PCB board with pads just 
just for one IC (usually a complex one) the with pins spaced 
comfortably.
 I don't know though if they would work as easily for the BGAs since 
you still have to solder them on. 


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Mark Brueggemann <qrq_cw@...> 
wrote:
>
> 
> --- electronut <electronut@...> wrote:
> 
> >  Thanks to all for the useful suggestions. Unfortunately I'm 
stuck 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > with BGAs for the FPGAs I want.
> 
> Have you considered using some of the BGA adapter boards, and
> then routing your own treating the adapter board as an "IC"?
> 
> <http://twinind.com/catalog.php?id=8>
> <http://www.schmartboard.com/index.asp?page=products_bga>
> 
> Just a thought.
> 
> 
> 
> Mark K5LXP
> Albuquerque, NM
>

Re: BGA Soldering: Hot air rework station

2007-10-05 by Stephanie Ann Thompson

Maddell is a company we frequently bought products from, they have a 
station you can buy for using a hot air gun for BGA rework
http://www.madelltech.com/m3-5.html
They also sell just the PCB holder listed here
http://www.madelltech.com/m3.html
I strongly suggest a controlled environment where you can monitor 
termerature and adjust accordingly to a set profile, usually 
microcontroller or PC controlled.
The reason I suggest 5 thermocouples is that especially when using a 
hot air gun, the middle of the part will heat up faster then the 
sides.  when this happens the part can buckle and warp, all of the 
middle solder balls will reflow, while the outside solder balls will 
not. and what happens is that you ramp up the temperature so that the 
outsides reflow, and then the middle goes too far down and you have a 
short, or shorted solder balls.
Also, the reason for one at each corner, is because of differences in 
layers, traces, etc, each corner will heat up differently. what will 
happen is one corner will reflow, while another will not be at the 
correct temperature yet, then the part becomes slanted, and further 
reflowing will cause a short. Or the part will buckle and warp.

You can get away with not wasting a board or a part, by using the 
kapton tape to tape the thermal couples to the bottom of the board, 
and you can get away with only 3 thermocouples as with experience and 
with a good base profile, the middle temp should not be far off from 
the corners. And then by starting with a conservative profile, you  
can bring the temps up in successive runs until you find the profile 
that works. however you can only run a board so many times before it 
starts to warp, burn, or peal. that is why preheating the boards is 
important, and a proper cooldown is needed.
-Steph

ew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "electronut" <electronut@...> wrote:
>
>  Steph,
> 
>  Thanks for the excellent advice. It's really usefull for a hobbist 
> like me (or others on this forum) to talk to someone who has done 
it 
> professionally.
>  The suggestion to drill holes in a trial board and put 
> thermocouples in them is very interesting and I haven't seen it 
> anywhere else. 
>  I'm thinking of converting a toaster oven to a "reflow oven". 
There 
> are several sites on the Web that describe how to do that. A 
MAX6675 
> can convert the temp into a digital signal that can be fed to a 
> small microcontroller or to a PC.
>  Probably, I'll do just one thermocouple for starters unless you 
> really think I should do all 5.
> 
>  But I hadn't yet considered that fact that the board might warp 
> slightly which would stress the BGA. Thanks for pointing that out 
> :-).
>  So I thought a jig like this might be useful when soldering with 
> hot air: 
> 
http://aoyue.de/en/Aoyue_328_Working_Platform_smd_Rework_ESD_Tool.htm
>  What do you think ?
> 
>  Any other thoughts on the toaster "reflow oven" ?
>  
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stephanie Ann Thompson" 
> <setlahs@> wrote:
> >
> > Sure thing. :)
> > The machines I used to use were Summit 1200 and 1800 BGA 
stations. 
> > They had a fine adjustment for placement, and also used a prism 
> > system. Some really cool stuff. The balls were really tiny, like 
> 1/3 
> > mil or smaller. anything larger became really easy as the solder 
> > balls were further apart.
> > The best thing to do before attempting to do a part, is to use a 
> > dummy board. Basically an exact replica of the board you wanna 
do, 
> > minus the parts. for the most accuracy drill holes where the part 
> > will be placed. one hole at each corner roughly 3-5mm away from 
> the 
> > edge, and one exactly in the middle. Place a thermalcouple in 
each 
> > hole you drilled, and glue it in with high temp epoxy, or use 
some 
> of 
> > that high temp tape if you wanna save the thermal couples. sorry 
i 
> > forget what it was called, but it was expensive, and looked this 
> > weird orange color. You will need a temp logger to log all of the 
> > temps at once, and graph them.
> > Next look at the manufacturer specs. if they're good, they'll 
list 
> > the reflow profile in the device specs
> > now you're ready to test a profile. it will be a rough profile 
> > because you won't have a part on the board. The profile will 
> change 
> > once you add a part. if the manufacturer gave you a profile for 
> the 
> > board, then start out with that.
> > Now lets hope the machine you get will have some temperature 
> > controll, like control over temperature ramping and hold times. 
> I've 
> > looked around and the cheapest way for that is to use a reflow 
> oven. 
> > I haven't seen any hot air wands that support temperature 
profiles.
> > The best trick for this is to buy an oven and outfit it with a 
> > controller. That is unless you want to spend 5000$ on a 
standalone 
> > station.
> > Preheating the board is a very important step. Preheating the 
> board 
> > too long is a waste of time, though rarely will it ever damage 
the 
> > board. Preheating it too short then the board won't have enough 
> heat 
> > soaked in it, and will require the profile to be much hotter. too 
> hot 
> > and it will scorch the board and warp it.
> > also, it's best to cycle the board at a low temp, like 150C for 
5 -
> 10 
> > mins, and let it cool a bit or so for 5 mins before starting the 
> > profile. Thiw will remove water vapor from the layers and prevent 
> > bubbling/pealing.
> > Next is ramping the temperature up. instead of shocking the board 
> > with 400C or so, you want to ramp up the temperature gradually, 
> > usually a period of 60-120 seconds. Most places will tell you not 
> to 
> > ramp the board faster then 3-6C a second. Any faster and the 
board 
> > will warp.After ramping up, it's good to have another preheat at 
> the 
> > much higher temp, but still below the reflow point, for about 30 
> > seconds or so. this lets the board temp stabalize. then finally 
> you 
> > ramp up the temp again, this time really quickly and up to the 
> reflow 
> > temperate (actual temp on the sensor should be around 10-15C 
> higher 
> > the the reflow point of the solder. the reflow time will vary 
from 
> 30-
> > 60 seconds. this part takes trial and error.
> > after that bring the temp down, and then ramp the temperature 
down 
> > using the same gradian as before, this will prevent warping and 
> > cracking.
> > 
> > Umm and there you have it. It's better yet if you have a part on 
> the 
> > dummy board. Preferably a bad part.
> > If you go the way of using a hot air gun, USE A HOT PLATE to 
> preheat 
> > the board.
> > As for placing the part, good luck. you'll need to find a way to 
> do 
> > it by hand unless you're a mechanical engineer and rig up your 
own 
> > pick and place.
> > before placing the part down, make sure the PCB is really clean. 
> Buy 
> > some really good flux paste (the one we used came in syringes, 
was 
> > like 16$ each, had a high viscosity, was very sticky. This kept 
> the 
> > part from moving around. The pads need to be pretinned for best 
> > effectiveness, but have ZERO excess solder on them, it needs to 
be 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > flat or the part will slide down. the amound of flux on them 
> should 
> > be just enough to get the part to stick. really, not a whole lot 
> > needed.
> > 
> > Hope this helps.
> > -Steph
>

Re: BGA Soldering: Hot air rework station

2007-10-05 by curt_rxr

>   Could someone with more experience share their advices ?
>

If you get everything lined up a toaster oven modified for reflow will
work, but I've had good luck using conductive glue:

http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/item/WG-1/570/CONDUCTIVE_GLUE,_0.3_FL.OZ._.html

I suppose your intended use would limit its applicability, I've a had
machine controller running with a glued AT91SAM9260  for just over
three weeks with no problems so far.

i agree, though that the best strategy is to avoid BGA packages like
the plague!

Curt

Re: BGA Soldering: Hot air rework station

2007-10-07 by Jon Elson

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Norm Carlberg" <normnet@...> wrote:
>
> I also would like to prototype BGA's.
> 
The problem with BGAs is there's no simple way to inspect the
soldering, and absolutely no way to correct a bad joint.  The pros use
soft X-ray machines to view the solder balls.  There are also some
exotic lenses that can look sideways under the chip for inspection. 
But, that just tells you is won't work, there's no way to repair one
bad connection under the BGA.  Even the pros send their chips out to
be reballed at $50 per chip.  Also, you end up having to use 6, 8 and
even more layers to get the signals out through the forest of vias
under the BGA.  Check the pricing on a 5-piece order of an 8-layer
board, it will run $1000 even with a very economical fabricator.  (Or,
do you already have multilayer PCB capability in your shop?)

You can get some fairly high pin-count chips in quad flat pack, 280
leads is quite standard, there may be some even a bit higher.  What
the HECK are you doing that needs more pins than that?  Also, the
high-end FPGAs get quite expensive.  Digi-Key has some $8000 chips
from Xilinx in their catalog!  Who the HELL can afford a SINGLE CHIP
that costs $8000?  Hmm, maybe the US government, but I can't imagine
too many others.

Jon

Re: BGA Soldering: Hot air rework station

2007-10-07 by Jon Elson

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "timbomcnuckle" <jaydag71@...>
wrote:
> Elektor did a great version of the
> taoster oven re-flow controlled with an AVR I think, lcd display,
> programmable curves, precision control (within reason),, I think the
> only complaint was lack of insulation, but you can always stuff with
> rockwool or something.
> 
>  I have used old style black&decker toaster-oven without any
> modification a few times but I got a better one now that I still need
> to finish. gluk.
I got a "GE" toaster oven from Wal-Mart for doing reflow.  After some
fooling around and toasting a couple boards but good, I figured out
that by putting the thermocouple into a PTH in the board, i'd be
monitoring ACTUAL board temperature, not the air temp.  The color of
the boards (or their IR absorbance, really) makes them get hotter than
the surrounding air.  This has worked out really well, and I know that
at least the couple aquare inches around the thermocouple are really
getting the exact temp profile I want.  The oven is not totally
uniform, but it really does quite well.  I'm using Kester SAC305
paste, and had been using this profile:
1.  ramp over 3 minutes to 185 C
2.  soak at 185 C for 1 minute
3.  ramp in 2 minutes to 235 C
4.  soak 1 minute at 235 C
5.  cool to 25 C in 5 minutes

I later upped the final temp to 238 C to help with the soldering in
the coolest spot of the oven.

The cooldown actually happens much slower, and at 100 C actual temp I
open the oven door.  The temperature control is quite good, usually
holding within 5 C of the setpoint, and getting closer as it get
hotter, where it really matters.

I bought an Omega 1/16th DIN ramp and soak temp controller on eBay,
and also got 1000 feet of #30 thermocouple wire with FEP insulation
from another eBay auction.  Aside from having to poke the thermocouple
into a hole in the board, this is working like a dream!

Jon

Re: BGA Soldering: Hot air rework station

2007-10-07 by Jon Elson

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "electronut" <electronut@...> wrote:
>
>  Stephanie, the parts I'm looking at are about BGAs with 400-500 
> balls.
>  You seem to know a lot more than me about the process. Any tips you 
> can share are much appreciated.
> 
>  timbomcnuckle: what king of PCBs have you done with your reflow 
> oven ? What kind of parts have you done ? Have you done BGAs, or 
> 0.5mm TQFP ? Did you do two layers PCBs ?
I just did a batch of boards with 0.5 mm MQFP's and some other SSOP
with 0.5mm pitch.  These were heat-sinked 14x20 mm rectangular ASICs
we had made by MOSIS.  I made my own solder stencils and used
too-thick shim stock, and so I got too much solder.  The stencils were
.005" thick.  I had some under-etching of the resist pattern which
made the apertures larger, too.  So, some of the chips floated on a
lake of solder and the leads had to be repositioned manually.  But,
that was due to my inexperience knowing how much solder volume to use.
 The toaster oven could take 6 of these boards (roughly 3 x 4") at a
time.  I poked the controller's thermocouple into a PTH on one of the
middle boards to control actual board temperature.  These were 6-layer
boards, with roughly 135 parts per side.  The back was mostly
decoupling caps, and that worked beautifully.  Due to the big, heavy
chips next to small passives on the top, the soldering was a little
less uniform, but really worked quite well.

Once I get this solder stencil aperture x thickness worked out better,
the whole process is going to be wonderful.

Jon

Re: BGA Soldering: Hot air rework station

2007-10-07 by Jon Elson

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "electronut" <electronut@...> wrote:
>
>  Thanks to all for the useful suggestions. Unfortunately I'm stuck 
> with BGAs for the FPGAs I want.
> 
My condolences!
>  Mark: I don't need to route all pins, only about 100 so I only need 
> to route the outermost rows.
> 
Some signals, like global clocks, are permanently assigned.
>  Leon: I thought about having them done professionally but all the 
> quotes I got were like $500 for one board. The thing is I'll 
> probably need 2-3 iterations to make my design work ...
>  If you know a place where I can get a resonable price, please let 
> me know.
If you don't know E-Teknet, in Arizona, then you need to check their
prices.  They do all the work in China, but have a rep office in the
US.  Their quality is excellent, I have had some 6-layer boards done
very reasonably by them, and use them for most of my PCB work.  They
do assembly, too, but I have not used that service.  Just look them up
on Google and run a quote.  It will still be several hundred $ per
order, though.

Jon

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: BGA Soldering: Hot air rework station

2007-10-08 by Mark Brueggemann

--- Jon Elson <elson@...> wrote:

> Who the HELL can afford a SINGLE CHIP that costs $8000?  
> Hmm, maybe the US government, but I can't imagine
> too many others.

Ever price an ASIC?  Ever price a *mistake* in an ASIC?
Makes them high density FPGA's look cheap.  Doing all your
ASIC protyping on a reprogrammable part takes out a lot of the
risk before your code is taped out.



Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: BGA Soldering: Hot air rework station

2007-10-27 by Norm Carlberg

Found: http://www.schmartboard.com/index.asp?page=products_bga
BGA up to 400 balls.
1.27 and 1.0mm pitches.
.8 and .5mm in the future.

Norm
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: electronut 
  To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 2:58 PM
  Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: BGA Soldering: Hot air rework station


  Thanks to all for the useful suggestions. Unfortunately I'm stuck 
  with BGAs for the FPGAs I want.
  .

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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