Homebrew PCBs

Hi, Im new in the forums and I would like to share some of my
experience with TT, specially in the paper area.

Some years ago I bought a low cost package of bizmart laser labels
(letter size sheets with 30 labels each).

What I do is peel off the labels and then print on the shiny side of
the sheet (where the labels were). 

I use an iron to make the transfer (a lot of guess work but managable).

- The advantages are:
No soaking or need to remove paper fibers after transfer.

- Disadvantages:
At least with this old labels the cut marks in the paper are deep, so
you need to fix the traces that are over this cut marks, with a
permanent marker or nail varnish after TT.

I just bought a new package of labels (Pres-a-ply - 100 sheets $8.00)
and the cut marks are not a problem, they are almost invisible, I
suppose the fixing part is not going to be necessary.

- Tips: 
1.- DO NOT BUY full page labels , at least when I did the paper was
cut in three big sections and it was useless, try other sizes (the
bigger the better, less peeling ), the new labels I bought are 3 1/3"
x 4", six labels per sheet, pres-a-ply 30604, AVERY 5164.

2.- Be careful when peeling the labels, try not to damage the cotiang
and paper.

- To do:
1.- I would like to use this paper with a laminator, if anybody does
please let me know how it went.
2.- Try different label brands, the coating of my old labels works
like a charm, with the new ones Im in the process (ironing trial and
error) to get at least some temp and time specifications.


Hope this help, and please let me know if you test it with laminator.

Happy TT

I was actually going to post this info but had gotten busy.

This works great. I tried the transfer stuff from pulsar and it 
wouldn't work with my printer (brother). 
The traces would float right off the board, so I experimented with 
other papers.

I found that Avery shipping lables worked very well. Other than like 
you said where they are scored for peel off. I do really small boards 
usually so I would just work around them and am currently looking for a 
label type that the backing comes off in one piece.

About the laminator... I have one I got along with the TT paper and it 
works great with this very easy.

I run it 4 times length wise. I rotate it 180 every pass then drop it 
into cold water. The paper comes off real easy no scrubbing no BSing 
around at all.

On Sat, 2007-01-20 at 15:42 +0000, niponcio wrote:
> What I do is peel off the labels and then print on the shiny side of
> the sheet (where the labels were). 

I tried it just now, with a piece of board off-cut (not cleaned, only
sanded briefly and half-heartedly with 600 density wet'n'dry).

Result - after just 2 passes through laminator, I have a spotlessly
perfect transfer, and the paper just falls off. And the process takes
less than a tenth the time that I was spending with the old painful
print-onto-card, soak, rub, soak, peel-with-tape, soak, rub,
pray-I-don't-damage-toner process.

Niponcio, you're a genius.

(Now, if only I'd seen that post yesterday, before I put in all those
hours producing 24 boards.  *%$&%#! @#!@*!^&#)

I've put some comments below.

> I use an iron to make the transfer (a lot of guess work but
> managable).

Use a laminator - 2 passes and you're done.

> - The advantages are:
> No soaking or need to remove paper fibers after transfer.

Hell yes - that's the most painful step.

> - Tips: 
> 1.- DO NOT BUY full page labels , at least when I did the paper was
> cut in three big sections and it was useless, try other sizes (the
> bigger the better, less peeling ), the new labels I bought are 3 1/3"
> x 4", six labels per sheet, pres-a-ply 30604, AVERY 5164.

No problem here. Shop for a brand of labels where the full-page labels
come with the backing sheet in one piece. I'm using a local brand of
labels (Impact - www.labelnz.com/lc.html) where the full-page label has
no breaks in the backing paper.

> 1.- I would like to use this paper with a laminator, if anybody does
> please let me know how it went.

Brilliantly - 2 passes through laminator gives 100% perfect transfer.

> 2.- Try different label brands, the coating of my old labels works
> like a charm, with the new ones Im in the process (ironing trial and
> error) to get at least some temp and time specifications.

One last question - what made you think of trying this?
It's the mark of genius - so simple and effective. I'll be using it from
now on.

Thank you SOOOO much for such a wonderful pain-saving and time-saving
idea! And I'm sure I'm not alone in this sentiment!

David

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, David McNab <rebirth@...> wrote:
> Result - after just 2 passes through laminator, I have a spotlessly
> perfect transfer, and the paper just falls off.

A couple of notes I should add here.

I did some experiments with a cross-hatch pattern based on 4mil traces.

With one pass through the laminator, the traces end up slightly
thinner than the original. With two passes, they end up a bit thicker
than the original.

I've collated the results into a single image, which compares the
original artwork, the transferred toner and the etch result. Note that
this was 1 pass through the laminator.

Check it out: http://tinypic.com/view/?pic=3zjazjr

The overall result is that (for me at least) the label backing paper
offers the quickest, cheapest, easiest and most accurate medium for
thermal toner transfer.

For fine work, there are two choices:

1) Use thinner traces with more spacing, do 2 or more laminator passes

2) Use thicker traces with good spacing, do just one laminator pass.

Cheers
David

There's an old saying, "Everything old is new again!" It fun to watch 
the new members 'rediscover' old techniques like using the laser label 
backing paper.

There was a long thread about silicone treated papers a while back. I 
think I was one of the early "reinventors" of the process. ;)

Laser label backing paper has just the right amount of silicone to 
temporarily grab the toner. The main problem that I found was that the 
adhesion was very fragile and can be easily damaged while handling.

Toner Transfer is a great method, but is a little fussy and has to be 
fine tuned for your equipment. For my boards, I use a thin clay coated 
paper, actually the SEARS flyer from the sunday paper. A thinner paper 
needs less heat (paper is a good insulator) and wets out very easy. 
Then I add a little automatic dishwashing detergent to the soaking 
bath, the alkalinity and surfactants help loosen the paper. Finally, 
after removing the paper, I "flash fuse" the toner with a hair dryer. 
This helps make a more continuous film and locks the toner to the 
copper. (The Pulsar green film dones the same thing.)

Myc

On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 05:04:23 +0100, David McNab <rebirth@...>  
wrote:

> Result - after just 2 passes through laminator, I have a spotlessly
> perfect transfer, and the paper just falls off. And the process takes
> less than a tenth the time that I was spending with the old painful
> print-onto-card, soak, rub, soak, peel-with-tape, soak, rub,
> pray-I-don't-damage-toner process.


Have you tried etching too?
Strangely with silicone paper i get "through etching".

In many printers, including mine, the toner will fall off from label  
paper, you can use silicone paper then. It peels off just the same, but i  
have problems with etching using that. I use it for component legend all  
the time though.

It's not a new thing BTW, we have discussed various anti-stick papers  
including label paper many times in the past.

ST

Just some comments and answers:

David: Im very glad this paper works for you, I started using this
when photo paper was non existent or very expensive (lot of years
ago), even the inkjet technology was in its begginings.

The press-a-ply labels I just bought are not working at all, probably
the type of coating, Im going to save it and try it with a laminator
to have temp and time regulated, if you make a lot of boards, and a
paper works for you, I suggest you buy a big stock of it, my bizmart
labels are running out and I am sure Im not going to find them anymore.

The problem with the toner falling off is the temperature the printer
uses to fuse the toner and of course the coating of the paper, I
tested this method with an HP laserjet II (museum piece) and a new HP
laserjet 1040 both work fine with the bizmart and press-a-ply lables,
and yes you have to handle the print with a little more care, but its
not that hard. I also tried an OKI 8z (very cheap laser printer) and
it didnt work at all. 

In new laser printers you can somehow twitch this temp by changing the
type of paper in the printing settings, and get a less fragile print.


Comments:

I posted this thread because I didnt find anything about this paper
(blame it on my search skills), but after reading the ones mentioning
the pain it is to soak and scrub the paper fibers, I thought it was a
good idea to put it out there. 

Technology has changed a lot (laser printing and paper coatings), so
probably the old threads are outdated and do not apply to the current
products available (maybe Im wrong). There a lot of brands of lables
and printers, and only by testing them we can come out with a good
general solution as David did.

Myc if you can tell me where to find the old threads about this.

Well, nothing more to say, hope more tests are made, Im going to post
mine after I test a new brand of labels (IRONING involved) :(








--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 05:04:23 +0100, David McNab <rebirth@...>  
> wrote:
> 
> > Result - after just 2 passes through laminator, I have a spotlessly
> > perfect transfer, and the paper just falls off. And the process takes
> > less than a tenth the time that I was spending with the old painful
> > print-onto-card, soak, rub, soak, peel-with-tape, soak, rub,
> > pray-I-don't-damage-toner process.
> 
> 
> Have you tried etching too?
> Strangely with silicone paper i get "through etching".
> 
> In many printers, including mine, the toner will fall off from label  
> paper, you can use silicone paper then. It peels off just the same,
but i  
> have problems with etching using that. I use it for component legend
all  

> the time though.
> 
> It's not a new thing BTW, we have discussed various anti-stick papers  
> including label paper many times in the past.
> 
> ST
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, David McNab <rebirth@...> wrote:
>
> On Sat, 2007-01-20 at 15:42 +0000, niponcio wrote:
> > What I do is peel off the labels and then print on the shiny side of
> > the sheet (where the labels were). 
> 
> I tried it just now, with a piece of board off-cut (not cleaned, only
> sanded briefly and half-heartedly with 600 density wet'n'dry).
> 
> Result - after just 2 passes through laminator, I have a spotlessly
> perfect transfer, and the paper just falls off. And the process takes
> less than a tenth the time that I was spending with the old painful
> print-onto-card, soak, rub, soak, peel-with-tape, soak, rub,
> pray-I-don't-damage-toner process.
> 
> Niponcio, you're a genius.
> 
> (Now, if only I'd seen that post yesterday, before I put in all those
> hours producing 24 boards.  *%$&%#! @#!@*!^&#)

Now this is where a Wiki can be a -very- good thing, as the laser
label backing trick is quite old but rarely gets mentioned.

Steve Greenfield

On Sun, 2007-01-21 at 17:14 +0000, niponcio wrote:
> In new laser printers you can somehow twitch this temp by changing the
> type of paper in the printing settings, and get a less fragile print.

I've got my HP2550L Color Laserjet set to '75-105gsm gloss card' - the
paper goes through slowly, prints hot, and spits out with impeccable
reproduction.

> I posted this thread because I didnt find anything about this paper
> (blame it on my search skills), but after reading the ones mentioning
> the pain it is to soak and scrub the paper fibers, I thought it was a
> good idea to put it out there. 

Yes - a very good idea indeed. I felt the pain of soaking/scrubbing on
Saturday, when I did a batch of 24 boards (as 2 lots of 4x3 12-up). It's
a task with as much enjoyment as scrubbing a filthy toilet bowl with a
worn toothbrush. To make matters worse, I tried the dishwasher soaking
with the second batch, it came out so bad that I had to scrub the board
clean and start again. So your label backing paper idea came as a
God-send, only 24 hours late :P

> Well, nothing more to say, hope more tests are made, Im going to post
> mine after I test a new brand of labels (IRONING involved) :(

Irons and me don't get along very well. My trusty second-hand $35
laminator has lifted me out of the harsher levels of hell.

I think my final setup will be:
 * artwork with slightly thinner traces
 * label backing paper, printed slow/hot through printer
 * 2 or 3 passes through laminator at slowest/hottest setting,
   with paper+board enclosed in a folded strip of thin card

I'm out of blank PCB - will buy some more today, try it out and report
on results.

Cheers
David

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
> <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
> >
> > On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 05:04:23 +0100, David McNab <rebirth@...> 
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > Result - after just 2 passes through laminator, I have a
> spotlessly
> > > perfect transfer, and the paper just falls off. And the process
> takes
> > > less than a tenth the time that I was spending with the old
> painful
> > > print-onto-card, soak, rub, soak, peel-with-tape, soak, rub,
> > > pray-I-don't-damage-toner process.
> > 
> > 
> > Have you tried etching too?
> > Strangely with silicone paper i get "through etching".
> > 
> > In many printers, including mine, the toner will fall off from
> label 
> > paper, you can use silicone paper then. It peels off just the same,
> but i 
> > have problems with etching using that. I use it for component legend
> all 
> > the time though.
> > 
> > It's not a new thing BTW, we have discussed various anti-stick
> papers 
> > including label paper many times in the past.
> > 
> > ST
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

> Irons and me don't get along very well. My trusty second-hand $35
> laminator has lifted me out of the harsher levels of hell.

Hey David, what brand and model of laminator do u have, Im trying to
pass .064" boards.

Thnx


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, David McNab <rebirth@...> wrote:

>
> On Sun, 2007-01-21 at 17:14 +0000, niponcio wrote:
> > In new laser printers you can somehow twitch this temp by changing the
> > type of paper in the printing settings, and get a less fragile print.
> 
> I've got my HP2550L Color Laserjet set to '75-105gsm gloss card' - the
> paper goes through slowly, prints hot, and spits out with impeccable
> reproduction.
> 
> > I posted this thread because I didnt find anything about this paper
> > (blame it on my search skills), but after reading the ones mentioning
> > the pain it is to soak and scrub the paper fibers, I thought it was a
> > good idea to put it out there. 
> 
> Yes - a very good idea indeed. I felt the pain of soaking/scrubbing on
> Saturday, when I did a batch of 24 boards (as 2 lots of 4x3 12-up). It's
> a task with as much enjoyment as scrubbing a filthy toilet bowl with a
> worn toothbrush. To make matters worse, I tried the dishwasher soaking
> with the second batch, it came out so bad that I had to scrub the board
> clean and start again. So your label backing paper idea came as a
> God-send, only 24 hours late :P
> 
> > Well, nothing more to say, hope more tests are made, Im going to post
> > mine after I test a new brand of labels (IRONING involved) :(
> 
> Irons and me don't get along very well. My trusty second-hand $35
> laminator has lifted me out of the harsher levels of hell.
> 
> I think my final setup will be:
>  * artwork with slightly thinner traces
>  * label backing paper, printed slow/hot through printer
>  * 2 or 3 passes through laminator at slowest/hottest setting,
>    with paper+board enclosed in a folded strip of thin card
> 
> I'm out of blank PCB - will buy some more today, try it out and report
> on results.
> 
> Cheers
> David
> 
> 
> 
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
> > <stefan_trethan@> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 05:04:23 +0100, David McNab <rebirth@> 
> > > wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Result - after just 2 passes through laminator, I have a
> > spotlessly
> > > > perfect transfer, and the paper just falls off. And the process
> > takes
> > > > less than a tenth the time that I was spending with the old
> > painful
> > > > print-onto-card, soak, rub, soak, peel-with-tape, soak, rub,
> > > > pray-I-don't-damage-toner process.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Have you tried etching too?
> > > Strangely with silicone paper i get "through etching".
> > > 
> > > In many printers, including mine, the toner will fall off from
> > label 
> > > paper, you can use silicone paper then. It peels off just the same,
> > but i 
> > > have problems with etching using that. I use it for component legend
> > all 
> > > the time though.
> > > 
> > > It's not a new thing BTW, we have discussed various anti-stick
> > papers 
> > > including label paper many times in the past.
> > > 
> > > ST
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "niponcio" <niponcio@...> wrote:
 
> Myc if you can tell me where to find the old threads about this.
> 

Search results:

Message 3219, Nov 20, 2003:

"Last week, I picked up a small laminator at Odd Lots for $12.99, to
see if it would work. Unfortunately, it didn't work well with the
clay coated paper, but I remembered reading in the files section
about using the backing sheet from pressure sensitive labels. So i
ran thru a test pattern. Didn't work at all. Then realized, I had
printed on the wrong side of the paper. Success! on the next run."

Myc

On Sun, 2007-01-21 at 20:16 +0000, niponcio wrote:
> > Irons and me don't get along very well. My trusty second-hand $35
> > laminator has lifted me out of the harsher levels of hell.
> 
> Hey David, what brand and model of laminator do u have, Im trying to
> pass .064" boards.

It's an Ibico PL-260 LSI.

Passes 1.6mm (0.064") boards through just fine, even with carrier card
thickening it to 2.1mm (0.0826").

It's an old-style laminator, with cold sprung rollers on entry and exit,
and sprung hot plates in the middle.

This style of laminator fell out of favour, since it requires cardboard
'carrier sheets', and has been superseded by hot-roller laminators.

Sadly, very few of the laminators being sold new these days are spring
loaded.

You might find a wonderful friend in eBay, or your local second hand
stores.

Cheers
David