Synth-DIY Yahoo! Groups Archives

Thread

[Homebrew_PCBs] floor polish, ammonia

2003-05-14 by Stefan Trethan

hi

today i saw floor polish at a local shop.
i remembered the post of using it as etch resist. (in inkjet).
so i thought i may try the printing with it (facing problems with hpgl file generation to plot etc,
etc.)

it should be acrylic floor polish be used but i have no idea if this is one.
since several years it seems no longer required by law to state the main ingredients at the label of a
bottle.
i don't like this. i believe in the past on nearly every product stood what is in there, at least the
main ingredients. maybe they don't want to tell it to the competitors but i think they can find it out
anyways.
this would also be important for appropriate medical treatment if swallowed accidently.

it was a cheap small can, only 5 eur.

the brand is BONA Parkett-Polish.

how can i determine if it is acrylic??

it smells like transparent water based laquer. (i did this guess in a previos post and seems to be
right).
i think it is diluted water thinable laquer but very diluted.

it has a very hollow milky- white appearance, but more transparent.

if anyone can tell me if this is the right stuff??

another question about ammonia:

this is the stuff with the strong smell?
who strong should be a ammonia / water mix to use as cleaner (%)?.

this should be able to clean the dried polish?

if anyone may help it would be fine...

i have found having a inkjet which would be very easy to convert to use pcb material but have no ink
cartridge. this is a hp with head in cartridge (good if clogged and not repairable). i have to get a
cartridge before i can try.

someone mentioned schellac could be also used.
i think if anyone can get this stuff to pass through a printer head it may also be possible to use
colophonium. this would give a ready fluxed surface for soldering and protection against oxygen on the
tracks. but i don't believe it would work (but it's similar to schellac)

any thoughts welcome like ever....

regards
stefan

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] floor polish, ammonia

2003-05-14 by Larry Battraw

On Wed, 2003-05-14 at 05:03, Stefan Trethan wrote:

> hi
>
> today i saw floor polish at a local shop.
> i remembered the post of using it as etch resist. (in inkjet).
> so i thought i may try the printing with it (facing problems with hpgl
> file generation to plot etc,
> etc.)
>
> it should be acrylic floor polish be used but i have no idea if this
> is one.

<snip>

> it was a cheap small can, only 5 eur.
>
> the brand is BONA Parkett-Polish.
>
>
> how can i determine if it is acrylic??

I picked a bottle of acrylic floor polish a week ago and have been
experimenting with it as well. First, mine actually says it is acrylic
(the brand name is "Future" by S.C. Johnson). The instructions mention
it has no wax, and that to get it off the floor you need ammonia. In
your case I would try painting it onto something and seeing how
waterproof it is afterward (this polish I have works perfectly as an
etch resist, although it has a tendency to form small bubbles as you
apply it). If it's waterproof and removable using ammonia my guess is
it's acrylic.

Larry

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] floor polish, ammonia

2003-05-14 by Ned Konz

On Wednesday 14 May 2003 05:03 am, Stefan Trethan wrote:

> today i saw floor polish at a local shop.
> i remembered the post of using it as etch resist. (in inkjet).
> so i thought i may try the printing with it (facing problems with
> hpgl file generation to plot etc, etc.)

I may have missed this.

Do you mean to actually try to use floor polish as an "ink"?

How will your inkjet deal with the different (higher) viscosity of the
polish and its tendency to clog?

I hope you never try to use the inkjet for anything else again...
--
Ned Konz
http://bike-nomad.com
GPG key ID: BEEA7EFE

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] floor polish, ammonia

2003-05-14 by Stefan Trethan

yes, try as ink

i hope it works also if thicker

i have no need for the inkjet since several years.

please look here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/message/994
and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/message/965 and followups.

please have a look at the posts to get up to date.

then i look forward to discuss this further..

i also managed to get 3 empty ink cartridges (with print head) from a guy at a local
computer forum. he sends it away tomorrow.

the most difficult thing i face is adjusting the head hight over pcb with modified printer.
i now think i have to make this a fixed height.

i have a deskjet550c.

this is a printer which wraps the paper around in normal mode.
but it isn't too difficult to modify.

i simply make it like the 7574a plotter.
i move the pcb in the y axis. so ot is much easier.

i simply put a large piece of clad over the rollers which normaly wrap the paper.
of course i had to teke of the metal sheet paper guide.
also to cut a piece of the frame.

now i only have to put a horizontal guide for the plate to keep it straight and to raise the print head
up (because pcb is thicker). or i lower the roller. (which is easier).

the pcb plate is pressed down onto the rubber wheels of the paper transport roller by 2 small wheels on
the side (like in the plotter).

a adjustable head height would be fine (pivoting down the transport roller around the center of the
driving gear would be easy) but then the horizontal guide also has to be lowered.

regards
stefan

14.05.2003 19:09:59, Ned Konz <ned@...> wrote:

>On Wednesday 14 May 2003 05:03 am, Stefan Trethan wrote:
>> today i saw floor polish at a local shop.
>> i remembered the post of using it as etch resist. (in inkjet).
>> so i thought i may try the printing with it (facing problems with
>> hpgl file generation to plot etc, etc.)
>
>I may have missed this.
>
>Do you mean to actually try to use floor polish as an "ink"?
>
>How will your inkjet deal with the different (higher) viscosity of the
>polish and its tendency to clog?
>
>I hope you never try to use the inkjet for anything else again...
>--
>Ned Konz
>http://bike-nomad.com
>GPG key ID: BEEA7EFE
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] inkjet printing, floor polish, ammonia

2003-05-16 by Stefan Trethan

hi

i will get my empty ink cartridges on monday.

they were quite expensive, 5eur per cartridge.
but this is much cheaper then buying new.

no i'm wondering what may be best do clean it.
nobody can answer my question about ammonia?
someone stated ammonia is good for cleaning the floor polish, please tell me how much ammonia there is
in a cleaning fluid. i have no idea. am i right assuming ammonia to be the stuff which smells so much?
i have ammonia here which is 7,5% in water and if you take a sniff it, well, really you shouldn't take a
deep breath if you don't want to spill the bottle when dropping it. i was told it is also "smelling
salt" which was used to wake up people who lost their consciousness in the past.

is this correct? which percentage ammonia is there in a suitable cleaning solution?

for cleaning the cartridge from original ink residue, is it suitable to use alcohol?

there is actually also sold "parkett polish entferner (remover)" which may be a suitable cleaner.
i have not bought it because it was only sold in one liter bottle and costs 10eur and i was not even
sure if the polish i coud get would be a good resist.

what is best to color the polish for making it better visible?
i tried the original ink in the cartridge but one would need quite a huge amount to get it coloring a
drawn trace enough and i didn't want to dilute excessively.

then i thought of the most intense color i had in house. this is "kali".
it is a cristalline stuff (purple), it was used in the past also for medical treatment.
the dictionary sayd pottash is the english word for it but i don't think this is correct.
it is a very powerful color, i put in some crystals and they colored it quite well. i think one has to
make sure all of it dissolves to prevent it clogging the heads.

now i had the idea to use the concentrated color used to color wall paint (if you buy white one).
i will try this now.

if anyone has a better idea please tell me.

regards
stefan

14.05.2003 21:14:08, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

>
>yes, try as ink
>
>i hope it works also if thicker
>
>i have no need for the inkjet since several years.
>
>
>please look here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/message/994
>and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/message/965 and followups.
>
>
>please have a look at the posts to get up to date.
>
>then i look forward to discuss this further..
>
>i also managed to get 3 empty ink cartridges (with print head) from a guy at a local
>computer forum. he sends it away tomorrow.
>
>
>the most difficult thing i face is adjusting the head hight over pcb with modified printer.
>i now think i have to make this a fixed height.
>
>i have a deskjet550c.
>
>this is a printer which wraps the paper around in normal mode.
>but it isn't too difficult to modify.
>
>i simply make it like the 7574a plotter.
>i move the pcb in the y axis. so ot is much easier.
>
>i simply put a large piece of clad over the rollers which normaly wrap the paper.
>of course i had to teke of the metal sheet paper guide.
>also to cut a piece of the frame.
>
>
>now i only have to put a horizontal guide for the plate to keep it straight and to raise the print head
>up (because pcb is thicker). or i lower the roller. (which is easier).
>
>the pcb plate is pressed down onto the rubber wheels of the paper transport roller by 2 small wheels on
>the side (like in the plotter).
>
>a adjustable head height would be fine (pivoting down the transport roller around the center of the
>driving gear would be easy) but then the horizontal guide also has to be lowered.
>
>
>
>regards
>stefan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>14.05.2003 19:09:59, Ned Konz <ned@...> wrote:
>
>>On Wednesday 14 May 2003 05:03 am, Stefan Trethan wrote:
>>> today i saw floor polish at a local shop.
>>> i remembered the post of using it as etch resist. (in inkjet).
>>> so i thought i may try the printing with it (facing problems with
>>> hpgl file generation to plot etc, etc.)
>>
>>I may have missed this.
>>
>>Do you mean to actually try to use floor polish as an "ink"?
>>
>>How will your inkjet deal with the different (higher) viscosity of the
>>polish and its tendency to clog?
>>
>>I hope you never try to use the inkjet for anything else again...
>>--
>>Ned Konz
>>http://bike-nomad.com
>>GPG key ID: BEEA7EFE
>>
>>
>>
>>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>>
>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>
>>
>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] inkjet printing, floor polish, ammonia

2003-05-16 by Stefan Trethan

OH NO!

just after sending the mail i grabbed the jar with the polish colored with kali and it is solid!
i had the lid on tight and wanted to shake it further, it is solid like fruit jelley!

PLEASE anyone explain my why this happened!
i already thought it feels a bit warm when ahaking but discarded this and thought this is the warmth of
my hands.
but there must have happened some reaction.

i'm really curios about that!
one minute it is liquid like water, the next minute its a thick paste.

if anyone may have an idea what happened please write..

so finally it shows kali is NOT suited at all for coloring polish!

strange things are going on there... i didn't put that much kali in...

thanks for any explanation...

stefan

16.05.2003 20:34:12, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

>hi
>
>i will get my empty ink cartridges on monday.
>
>they were quite expensive, 5eur per cartridge.
>but this is much cheaper then buying new.
>
>no i'm wondering what may be best do clean it.
>nobody can answer my question about ammonia?
>someone stated ammonia is good for cleaning the floor polish, please tell me how much ammonia there is
>in a cleaning fluid. i have no idea. am i right assuming ammonia to be the stuff which smells so much?
>i have ammonia here which is 7,5% in water and if you take a sniff it, well, really you shouldn't take

>deep breath if you don't want to spill the bottle when dropping it. i was told it is also "smelling
>salt" which was used to wake up people who lost their consciousness in the past.
>
>is this correct? which percentage ammonia is there in a suitable cleaning solution?
>
>
>for cleaning the cartridge from original ink residue, is it suitable to use alcohol?
>
>there is actually also sold "parkett polish entferner (remover)" which may be a suitable cleaner.
>i have not bought it because it was only sold in one liter bottle and costs 10eur and i was not even
>sure if the polish i coud get would be a good resist.
>
>
>
>what is best to color the polish for making it better visible?
>i tried the original ink in the cartridge but one would need quite a huge amount to get it coloring a
>drawn trace enough and i didn't want to dilute excessively.
>
>
>then i thought of the most intense color i had in house. this is "kali".
>it is a cristalline stuff (purple), it was used in the past also for medical treatment.
>the dictionary sayd pottash is the english word for it but i don't think this is correct.
>it is a very powerful color, i put in some crystals and they colored it quite well. i think one has to
>make sure all of it dissolves to prevent it clogging the heads.
>
>
>now i had the idea to use the concentrated color used to color wall paint (if you buy white one).
>i will try this now.
>
>if anyone has a better idea please tell me.
>
>
>regards
>stefan
>
>
>
>
>14.05.2003 21:14:08, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
>>
>>yes, try as ink
>>
>>i hope it works also if thicker
>>
>>i have no need for the inkjet since several years.
>>
>>
>>please look here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/message/994
>>and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/message/965 and followups.
>>
>>
>>please have a look at the posts to get up to date.
>>
>>then i look forward to discuss this further..
>>
>>i also managed to get 3 empty ink cartridges (with print head) from a guy at a local
>>computer forum. he sends it away tomorrow.
>>
>>
>>the most difficult thing i face is adjusting the head hight over pcb with modified printer.
>>i now think i have to make this a fixed height.
>>
>>i have a deskjet550c.
>>
>>this is a printer which wraps the paper around in normal mode.
>>but it isn't too difficult to modify.
>>
>>i simply make it like the 7574a plotter.
>>i move the pcb in the y axis. so ot is much easier.
>>
>>i simply put a large piece of clad over the rollers which normaly wrap the paper.
>>of course i had to teke of the metal sheet paper guide.
>>also to cut a piece of the frame.
>>
>>
>>now i only have to put a horizontal guide for the plate to keep it straight and to raise the print

head

>>up (because pcb is thicker). or i lower the roller. (which is easier).
>>
>>the pcb plate is pressed down onto the rubber wheels of the paper transport roller by 2 small wheels

>>the side (like in the plotter).
>>
>>a adjustable head height would be fine (pivoting down the transport roller around the center of the
>>driving gear would be easy) but then the horizontal guide also has to be lowered.
>>
>>
>>
>>regards
>>stefan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>14.05.2003 19:09:59, Ned Konz <ned@...> wrote:
>>
>>>On Wednesday 14 May 2003 05:03 am, Stefan Trethan wrote:
>>>> today i saw floor polish at a local shop.
>>>> i remembered the post of using it as etch resist. (in inkjet).
>>>> so i thought i may try the printing with it (facing problems with
>>>> hpgl file generation to plot etc, etc.)
>>>
>>>I may have missed this.
>>>
>>>Do you mean to actually try to use floor polish as an "ink"?
>>>
>>>How will your inkjet deal with the different (higher) viscosity of the
>>>polish and its tendency to clog?
>>>
>>>I hope you never try to use the inkjet for anything else again...
>>>--
>>>Ned Konz
>>>http://bike-nomad.com
>>>GPG key ID: BEEA7EFE
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>>>
>>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>>
>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>
>>
>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Re: inkjet printing, floor polish, ammonia

2003-05-16 by grantfair2001

Household ammonia is diluted quite a bit for wax removal. One cup in 5
litres of water is what my bottle of AMEX states for general cleaning.
Yes, Ammonia really smells. You need to be careful not to breathe
fumes or get it in your eyes. Read a hazardous material sheet on it.

Potash is potassium carbonate; it is white I believe.

Potassium permanganate, KMnO4, is a purple crystalline compound with a
metallic sheen. It is soluble in water, in acetone and in methanol,
but it is decomposed by ethanol.

You might try this ethanol test to see if that's what your purple
powder is. After you can have a drink to celebrate!

I have no idea how it (Pot permanganate) might react with copper.
Maybe someone else does.

By the way, ammonia does react with copper, according to my AMEX, "Do
not use with copper or aluminum". I imagine brief contact with dilute
solutions *might* be ok but I would check with a chemist first to see
what risks if any, exist for human health.

The % of ammonia in Amex is not stated on the bottle. I will check
with the manufacturer next week. They are closed until Tuesday.

Good luck with your project, I am looking forward to hearing how it goes.

Grant

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:

> hi
> [snip]
> nobody can answer my question about ammonia?
> someone stated ammonia is good for cleaning the floor polish, please

tell me how much ammonia there is

> in a cleaning fluid. i have no idea. am i right assuming ammonia to

be the stuff which smells so much?

> is this correct? which percentage ammonia is there in a suitable

cleaning solution?

>
>
> for cleaning the cartridge from original ink residue, is it suitable

to use alcohol?

>

> what is best to color the polish for making it better visible?
> i tried the original ink in the cartridge but one would need quite a

huge amount to get it coloring a

> drawn trace enough and i didn't want to dilute excessively.
>
>
> then i thought of the most intense color i had in house. this is "kali".
> it is a cristalline stuff (purple), it was used in the past also for

medical treatment.

> the dictionary sayd pottash is the english word for it but i don't

think this is correct.

> it is a very powerful color, i put in some crystals and they colored

it quite well. i think one has to

> make sure all of it dissolves to prevent it clogging the heads.
>
>
> now i had the idea to use the concentrated color used to color wall

paint (if you buy white one).

> i will try this now.
>
> if anyone has a better idea please tell me.
>
>
> regards
> stefan

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: inkjet printing, floor polish, ammonia

2003-05-16 by Larry Battraw

On Fri, 2003-05-16 at 12:55, grantfair2001 wrote:
<snip>
>
> By the way, ammonia does react with copper, according to my AMEX, "Do
> not use with copper or aluminum". I imagine brief contact with dilute
> solutions *might* be ok but I would check with a chemist first to see
> what risks if any, exist for human health.
>
Using off-the-shelf generic ammonia works wonderfully for stripping
boards coated with dry-film resist. However, as you mentioned it does
react with copper, although rather slowly. I've never noticed any
problems with corrosion/discoloration until yesterday when I left a
couple boards in it for over an hour. At that point it had turned the
copper blueish gray in places and it was not fun having to scrub it
off. Dry-film resist that has been "baked" too long (to fixate the
developed film) or been overexposed a lot takes a while to strip using
concentrated developer solution; ammonia will strip it in inside a
minute's time.

Larry

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: inkjet printing, floor polish, ammonia

2003-05-17 by Stefan Trethan

ok i will do the ethanol test.

but does nobody know why it gets in this jelly stage when mixing it with floor polish?
i had it only in the glass jar, perhaps 10 or 20 ml of floor polish and only very few kali.
after shaking everything was ok (and colored). then putting it down on the desk, lid on, and writing
email (several minutes). after that i took it again and it was in that jelly stage. it still is this
viscosity today.

regards
stefan

17.05.2003 00:34:27, Larry Battraw <battraw@...> wrote:

>On Fri, 2003-05-16 at 12:55, grantfair2001 wrote:
><snip>
>>
>> By the way, ammonia does react with copper, according to my AMEX, "Do
>> not use with copper or aluminum". I imagine brief contact with dilute
>> solutions *might* be ok but I would check with a chemist first to see
>> what risks if any, exist for human health.
>>
> Using off-the-shelf generic ammonia works wonderfully for stripping
>boards coated with dry-film resist. However, as you mentioned it does
>react with copper, although rather slowly. I've never noticed any
>problems with corrosion/discoloration until yesterday when I left a
>couple boards in it for over an hour. At that point it had turned the
>copper blueish gray in places and it was not fun having to scrub it
>off. Dry-film resist that has been "baked" too long (to fixate the
>developed film) or been overexposed a lot takes a while to strip using
>concentrated developer solution; ammonia will strip it in inside a
>minute's time.
>
>Larry
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] inkjet printing, floor polish, ammonia

2003-05-17 by Leon Heller

>From: Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...>
>Reply-To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] inkjet printing, floor polish, ammonia
>Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 20:34:12 +0200
>
>hi
>
>i will get my empty ink cartridges on monday.
>
>they were quite expensive, 5eur per cartridge.
>but this is much cheaper then buying new.
>
>no i'm wondering what may be best do clean it.
>nobody can answer my question about ammonia?
>someone stated ammonia is good for cleaning the floor polish, please tell
>me how much ammonia there is
>in a cleaning fluid. i have no idea. am i right assuming ammonia to be the
>stuff which smells so much?
>i have ammonia here which is 7,5% in water and if you take a sniff it,
>well, really you shouldn't take a
>deep breath if you don't want to spill the bottle when dropping it. i was
>told it is also "smelling
>salt" which was used to wake up people who lost their consciousness in the
>past.
>
>is this correct? which percentage ammonia is there in a suitable cleaning
>solution?
>
>
>for cleaning the cartridge from original ink residue, is it suitable to use
>alcohol?

The suppliers of ink jet refill kits sell a liquid for flushing out
catridges before refilling them. It's probably IPA (iso-propyl alcohol). IPA
is available from most electronic suppliers. It's also used in after-shave
lotion, so perhaps you could try that. 8-)

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM Tel: +44 1424 423947
Email:leon_heller@...
My web page: http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail messages direct to your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/msnmobile

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] ipa, ethyl alcohol

2003-05-17 by Stefan Trethan

hi

i read some information about ipa.
i have read of it often for cleaning/solvent etc.
i only saw a bottle of it once (with a terrible misspelled label on it).
this was a strange brass bottle which had some kind of pressure tight valve which to pull back and then
the ipa flows out.. so i assumed this may evaporate very fast. is this right?

i never saw it sold in any shop but found it as isopropanol which is only another name (is this
correct?) in the list of a local chemical supplies shop.

i also read it is used a cheap substitute for ethyl alcohol.

but if it is only a substitute for ethyl alcohol i would rather use that.
it is sold as "spiritus" here, which is ethyl alcohol (somewhere betewwn 96 and 98%).
it is made undrinkable by some chemicals and so rather cheap because the taxes for alcoholic drinks
don't apply.

does anyone know what the differences (in using) of the both alcohols are and if ethyl alcohol ay also
be good for cleaning the old ink out of the cardridge?

regards
stefan

17.05.2003 09:08:25, "Leon Heller" <leon_heller@...> wrote:

>
>>From: Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...>
>>Reply-To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] inkjet printing, floor polish, ammonia
>>Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 20:34:12 +0200
>>
>>hi
>>
>>i will get my empty ink cartridges on monday.
>>
>>they were quite expensive, 5eur per cartridge.
>>but this is much cheaper then buying new.
>>
>>no i'm wondering what may be best do clean it.
>>nobody can answer my question about ammonia?
>>someone stated ammonia is good for cleaning the floor polish, please tell
>>me how much ammonia there is
>>in a cleaning fluid. i have no idea. am i right assuming ammonia to be the
>>stuff which smells so much?
>>i have ammonia here which is 7,5% in water and if you take a sniff it,
>>well, really you shouldn't take a
>>deep breath if you don't want to spill the bottle when dropping it. i was
>>told it is also "smelling
>>salt" which was used to wake up people who lost their consciousness in the
>>past.
>>
>>is this correct? which percentage ammonia is there in a suitable cleaning
>>solution?
>>
>>
>>for cleaning the cartridge from original ink residue, is it suitable to use
>>alcohol?
>
>
>The suppliers of ink jet refill kits sell a liquid for flushing out
>catridges before refilling them. It's probably IPA (iso-propyl alcohol). IPA
>is available from most electronic suppliers. It's also used in after-shave
>lotion, so perhaps you could try that. 8-)
>
>Leon
>--
>Leon Heller, G1HSM Tel: +44 1424 423947
>Email:leon_heller@...
>My web page: http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Hotmail messages direct to your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/msnmobile
>
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>
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>
>
>
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>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] ipa, ethyl alcohol

2003-05-17 by Leon Heller

>From: Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...>
>Reply-To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] ipa, ethyl alcohol
>Date: Sat, 17 May 2003 14:02:38 +0200
>
>hi
>
>i read some information about ipa.
>i have read of it often for cleaning/solvent etc.
>i only saw a bottle of it once (with a terrible misspelled label on it).
>this was a strange brass bottle which had some kind of pressure tight valve
>which to pull back and then
>the ipa flows out.. so i assumed this may evaporate very fast. is this
>right?

Yes, it's quite volatile.

>
>i never saw it sold in any shop but found it as isopropanol which is only
>another name (is this
>correct?) in the list of a local chemical supplies shop.

Same stuff. Propanol is the modern name for propyl alcohol (like ethanol is
ethyl alcohol).

>
>i also read it is used a cheap substitute for ethyl alcohol.
>
>but if it is only a substitute for ethyl alcohol i would rather use that.
>it is sold as "spiritus" here, which is ethyl alcohol (somewhere betewwn 96
>and 98%).
>it is made undrinkable by some chemicals and so rather cheap because the
>taxes for alcoholic drinks
>don't apply.
>
>does anyone know what the differences (in using) of the both alcohols are
>and if ethyl alcohol ay also
>be good for cleaning the old ink out of the cardridge?

I think the main difference is that IPA evaporates quicker. It's a better
solvent and it seems to be used a lot more in industry than ethanol. IPA is
good stuff for removing flux after soldering.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM Tel: +44 1424 423947
Email:leon_heller@...
My web page: http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

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Cleaning cartridges and color in floor polish for etch resist

2003-05-17 by Steve

And watch out around plastics. Some varieties of alcohol will dissolve
many kinds of plastic.

If your cartridges are bought empty, no need to clean any old ink out.

If you are attempting to use an old used cartridge, keep in mind that
the inks are water soluble. I've had problems with alcohol drying
-too- quickly and leaving behind a mess. I'm cleaning some old
cartridges. I started with 99% isopropyl, soaking in a glass and
changing the alcohol several times, and started pouring in distilled
water. I found that although the alcohol had begun to run clear, the
distilled water dissolved more ink that the alcohol had not touched.

I have a Canon BJC 4000 with a straight paper path and a separate cart
for black, and several HP 310, 320, and 330 laptop inkjets with
straight paper paths and all black cartridges.

If you are using a color printer, make sure and set the printer driver
to print greyscale. Otherwise it may try and use the other colors
around the edges.

Oh, yeah... DON'T USE PAINT PIGMENTS! Paint pigments are just that,
pigments. They are little flakes of color and will clog your cartridge
right up.

Keep in mind that you don't need to see opaque black. Just enough
color to tell where it printed is all you need. You need a dye, not a
pigment. RIT fabrid dye has a lot of salt in it so I would not use it.
I wonder if food coloring would work?

Steve Greenfield

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] ipa, ethyl alcohol

2003-05-17 by Ned Konz

On Saturday 17 May 2003 05:02 am, Stefan Trethan wrote:

> i read some information about ipa.
> i have read of it often for cleaning/solvent etc.
> i only saw a bottle of it once (with a terrible misspelled label on
> it). this was a strange brass bottle which had some kind of
> pressure tight valve which to pull back and then the ipa flows
> out.. so i assumed this may evaporate very fast. is this right?

I think you were looking at an ether can. Isopropanol doesn't
evaporate very quickly.

--
Ned Konz
http://bike-nomad.com
GPG key ID: BEEA7EFE

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] ipa, ethyl alcohol

2003-05-17 by Stefan Trethan

17.05.2003 17:53:20, Ned Konz <ned@...> wrote:

>On Saturday 17 May 2003 05:02 am, Stefan Trethan wrote:
>
>> i read some information about ipa.
>> i have read of it often for cleaning/solvent etc.
>> i only saw a bottle of it once (with a terrible misspelled label on
>> it). this was a strange brass bottle which had some kind of
>> pressure tight valve which to pull back and then the ipa flows
>> out.. so i assumed this may evaporate very fast. is this right?
>
>I think you were looking at an ether can. Isopropanol doesn't
>evaporate very quickly.

maybe it was initially for ether, i'm sure ipa was in but there were several mistakes on the label. but
im sure it was ipa.

thanks for the information, i will get some ipa anyways because i think it may be good to have it.
ethanol does not attack any plastics i know. i regularly use it to clean label residue off, etc. also
use it to clean plastic eyeglasses.

i will use ethanol and water to clean out the cartridges. they are not unfilled, they are used up.
i have no idea where to get unfilled cartridges (maybe for refill sets..).

i know i don't need it dark black but i have put in a small sample quite a lot of original printer color
and it wasn't very visible at copper.
but i will make the first experiments with plain uncolored polish to make sure if it fails it is not due
to the color.

if anyone here (steve?) also wants to try the direct printing please write your results...

i know my 550c quite well, it is does not try to use color for black edges.
but i will set it to b/w anyways...

regards
stefan

oh, yes, ipa, does it dissolve plastics? which?
thanks.

>
>
>--
>Ned Konz
>http://bike-nomad.com
>GPG key ID: BEEA7EFE
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
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>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
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>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Cleaning cartridges and color in floor polish for etch resist

2003-05-17 by Stefan Trethan

food coloring:
in the initial posts here quite a while ago there is stated food coloring works.
i have none at home (see no reason for coloring the food...).
i maybe will get one if i find out where it is sold.

to the pigmens:
i once used "pigmented ink" to refill the cartridge and it also worked.
(i assume they were small enough)

regards
stefan

17.05.2003 17:19:28, "Steve" <alienrelics@...> wrote:

>And watch out around plastics. Some varieties of alcohol will dissolve
>many kinds of plastic.
>
>If your cartridges are bought empty, no need to clean any old ink out.
>
>If you are attempting to use an old used cartridge, keep in mind that
>the inks are water soluble. I've had problems with alcohol drying
>-too- quickly and leaving behind a mess. I'm cleaning some old
>cartridges. I started with 99% isopropyl, soaking in a glass and
>changing the alcohol several times, and started pouring in distilled
>water. I found that although the alcohol had begun to run clear, the
>distilled water dissolved more ink that the alcohol had not touched.
>
>I have a Canon BJC 4000 with a straight paper path and a separate cart
>for black, and several HP 310, 320, and 330 laptop inkjets with
>straight paper paths and all black cartridges.
>
>If you are using a color printer, make sure and set the printer driver
>to print greyscale. Otherwise it may try and use the other colors
>around the edges.
>
>Oh, yeah... DON'T USE PAINT PIGMENTS! Paint pigments are just that,
>pigments. They are little flakes of color and will clog your cartridge
>right up.
>
>Keep in mind that you don't need to see opaque black. Just enough
>color to tell where it printed is all you need. You need a dye, not a
>pigment. RIT fabrid dye has a lot of salt in it so I would not use it.
>I wonder if food coloring would work?
>
>Steve Greenfield
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
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>
>

Re: inkjet printing, floor polish, ammonia

2003-05-17 by grantfair2001

It is difficult to know without knowing what potassium compound is
involved. (I understand "kali" means "potassium", but potassium isn't
purple). If "kali" is potassium permanganate, it is a powerful
oxidant, so perhaps this triggered polymerization or some other reaction.

As far as coloring, I have read that hobbyists who make models use
Future floor polish to clear coat their models. Some report that some
acrylic model paints seem to be compatible when they are dissolved in
it, and some don't. But I would be concerned about the size of the
pigment and the chance of blocking the inkjet, (the inkjet is
something the modellers don't use to apply so they don't have to worry
about pigment size). Your food coloring idea seems more likely to work.

Grant

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:

> ok i will do the ethanol test.
>
> but does nobody know why it gets in this jelly stage when mixing it

with floor polish?

> i had it only in the glass jar, perhaps 10 or 20 ml of floor polish

and only very few kali.

> after shaking everything was ok (and colored). then putting it down

on the desk, lid on, and writing

> email (several minutes). after that i took it again and it was in

that jelly stage. it still is this

> viscosity today.
>
> regards
> stefan
> >

Re: ipa, ethyl alcohol

2003-05-17 by Steve

I've never seen isopropyl alcohol dissolve plastics. Denatured alcohol
will, and will strip paint.

Not sure about ethanol. Don't think it will.

Steve Greenfield

Re: Cleaning cartridges and color in floor polish for etch resist

2003-05-17 by Steve

Food coloring: good. I'll try it, too.

Pigmented inkjet inks are fine just so they'll go through an inkjet
nozzle. Regular painting pigments are much larger grained.

So far my old clogged Canon cartridge is not cleaning up. I may have
to sacrifice one of the newer working ones.

Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:

> food coloring:
> in the initial posts here quite a while ago there is stated food

coloring works.

> i have none at home (see no reason for coloring the food...).
> i maybe will get one if i find out where it is sold.
>
> to the pigmens:
> i once used "pigmented ink" to refill the cartridge and it also worked.
> (i assume they were small enough)
>
> regards
> stefan
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Cleaning cartridges and color in floor polish for etch resist

2003-05-17 by Dave King

>Food coloring: good. I'll try it, too.

Available at any grocery store in the baking department used in icings.
(more for Stefan info)

>So far my old clogged Canon cartridge is not cleaning up. I may have
>to sacrifice one of the newer working ones.

I found vinegar (acetic acid) works to loosen old ink. You can revive
old dry dead ones by filling with vinegar and letting them sit, and repeating
a few times. Works good for cleaning the print heads too.

Dave

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: inkjet printing, floor polish, ammonia

2003-05-17 by Stefan Trethan

i think you are very right with your guess about potassium permanganate.
under the sticker with the price i found the following: "übermangansaures kali äusserlich".
this means over/super manganese saur potassium.
so i believe this is as close as you can get to potassium permanganate.
(äusserlich means external applying it to the body, not swallowing it (it is meant to be used
medically)).

the old names for the chemicals are somehow confusing if one (like i) doesn't understand the modern
names as it would be nice.

i understand the thing with the pigments, as said as a precaution i will not color it for the first
trials at all.

regards
stefan

17.05.2003 20:42:50, "grantfair2001" <grant.fair@...> wrote:

>It is difficult to know without knowing what potassium compound is
>involved. (I understand "kali" means "potassium", but potassium isn't
>purple). If "kali" is potassium permanganate, it is a powerful
>oxidant, so perhaps this triggered polymerization or some other reaction.
>
>As far as coloring, I have read that hobbyists who make models use
>Future floor polish to clear coat their models. Some report that some
>acrylic model paints seem to be compatible when they are dissolved in
>it, and some don't. But I would be concerned about the size of the
>pigment and the chance of blocking the inkjet, (the inkjet is
>something the modellers don't use to apply so they don't have to worry
>about pigment size). Your food coloring idea seems more likely to work.
>
>Grant
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
><stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
>> ok i will do the ethanol test.
>>
>> but does nobody know why it gets in this jelly stage when mixing it
>with floor polish?
>> i had it only in the glass jar, perhaps 10 or 20 ml of floor polish
>and only very few kali.
>> after shaking everything was ok (and colored). then putting it down
>on the desk, lid on, and writing
>> email (several minutes). after that i took it again and it was in
>that jelly stage. it still is this
>> viscosity today.
>>
>> regards
>> stefan
>> >
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
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>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: ipa, ethyl alcohol

2003-05-17 by Stefan Trethan

ethanol also does definitely not dissolve any plastic i ever tried.
also dried up paint etc resists it.
but it can remove the paint of markers etc. when rubbing tight.
the steadtler red is also here most resistant, it is much harder to clean with ethanol then the other
colors.

acetone, and many of the other solvents will dissolve plastics also.

i didn't understand Denatured alcohol and put it in dictionary.
surprisingly it told me "spiritus / brennspiritus" is the translation.
this is funny because i'm telling the whole time that ethanol (which is spiritus) doesn't dissolve
plastics and you tell me Denatured alcohol (which the dictionary says is spiritus) will dissolve it.

please tell me if the dictionary is wrong (and Denatured alcohol is not ethanol) or which plastics it
dissolves.

regards
stefan

17.05.2003 20:46:54, "Steve" <alienrelics@...> wrote:

>I've never seen isopropyl alcohol dissolve plastics. Denatured alcohol
>will, and will strip paint.
>
>Not sure about ethanol. Don't think it will.
>
>Steve Greenfield
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
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>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Cleaning cartridges and color in floor polish for etch resist

2003-05-17 by Stefan Trethan

why is food coloring not pigmented?

you soak it in ipa?
i fear that the ones i get will also not clean up!
was it clogged by inkjet ink or "some experimental color"?

how long was it lying around dry?

st

17.05.2003 21:02:55, "Steve" <alienrelics@...> wrote:

>Food coloring: good. I'll try it, too.
>
>Pigmented inkjet inks are fine just so they'll go through an inkjet
>nozzle. Regular painting pigments are much larger grained.
>
>So far my old clogged Canon cartridge is not cleaning up. I may have
>to sacrifice one of the newer working ones.
>
>Steve
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
><stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
>> food coloring:
>> in the initial posts here quite a while ago there is stated food
>coloring works.
>> i have none at home (see no reason for coloring the food...).
>> i maybe will get one if i find out where it is sold.
>>
>> to the pigmens:
>> i once used "pigmented ink" to refill the cartridge and it also worked.
>> (i assume they were small enough)
>>
>> regards
>> stefan
>>
>
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] floor polish viscosity / maximum diluting?

2003-05-17 by Stefan Trethan

i forgot the following:

what do you think about the viscosity?
i know you can't see my polis but i assume it is same viscosity all over the world.

i believe it may pass through the inkjet undilutet but am not sure (will it correctly leave the nozzle).
the label says apply pure for first use, after then diluted 200ml in 10liters of water for cleaning. but
i think this applies only to floor cleaning and i can't find the right aplication instructions for
inkjet printing on the label ;-).

i did diluting experiments in the past when i tried colophonium as a resist (would be a nice flux too,
no cleaning). i dissolved it in ethanol and made a row of samples, each diluted more with further
ethanol. it can be diluted quite a while but after reaching a minimum amount it does no longer resist
correctly. it showed only protecting the edged of the line i made on the pcb. (the inner was dissolved,
so the colophonium was thicker on the edges).

i think one may make such a experient also with polish but i don't know how to simulate the right amount
/ film thickness applied by a inkjet.
i don't want to clean/ refill the cartridge with a lot of samples.

regards
stefan

17.05.2003 21:02:55, "Steve" <alienrelics@...> wrote:

>Food coloring: good. I'll try it, too.
>
>Pigmented inkjet inks are fine just so they'll go through an inkjet
>nozzle. Regular painting pigments are much larger grained.
>
>So far my old clogged Canon cartridge is not cleaning up. I may have
>to sacrifice one of the newer working ones.
>
>Steve
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
><stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:
>> food coloring:
>> in the initial posts here quite a while ago there is stated food
>coloring works.
>> i have none at home (see no reason for coloring the food...).
>> i maybe will get one if i find out where it is sold.
>>
>> to the pigmens:
>> i once used "pigmented ink" to refill the cartridge and it also worked.
>> (i assume they were small enough)
>>
>> regards
>> stefan
>>
>
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] ipa, ethyl alcohol

2003-05-18 by RandyL

No, they're not the same. Ethyl Alcohol is the kind you drink. isopropanol is rubbing alcohol, and Ethylene Glycol is antifreeze. The two latter ones are deadly poison. All will disolve diferent chemicals. I keep all three around for various uses.....hehe....hic...g

RandyL

----- Original Message -----
From: Stefan Trethan
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 5:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] ipa, ethyl alcohol

hi

i read some information about ipa.
i have read of it often for cleaning/solvent etc.
i only saw a bottle of it once (with a terrible misspelled label on it).
this was a strange brass bottle which had some kind of pressure tight valve which to pull back and then
the ipa flows out.. so i assumed this may evaporate very fast. is this right?

i never saw it sold in any shop but found it as isopropanol which is only another name (is this
correct?) in the list of a local chemical supplies shop.

i also read it is used a cheap substitute for ethyl alcohol.

but if it is only a substitute for ethyl alcohol i would rather use that.
it is sold as "spiritus" here, which is ethyl alcohol (somewhere betewwn 96 and 98%).
it is made undrinkable by some chemicals and so rather cheap because the taxes for alcoholic drinks
don't apply.

does anyone know what the differences (in using) of the both alcohols are and if ethyl alcohol ay also
be good for cleaning the old ink out of the cardridge?

regards
stefan

17.05.2003 09:08:25, "Leon Heller" <leon_heller@...> wrote:

>
>>From: Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...>
>>Reply-To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] inkjet printing, floor polish, ammonia
>>Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 20:34:12 +0200
>>
>>hi
>>
>>i will get my empty ink cartridges on monday.
>>
>>they were quite expensive, 5eur per cartridge.
>>but this is much cheaper then buying new.
>>
>>no i'm wondering what may be best do clean it.
>>nobody can answer my question about ammonia?
>>someone stated ammonia is good for cleaning the floor polish, please tell
>>me how much ammonia there is
>>in a cleaning fluid. i have no idea. am i right assuming ammonia to be the
>>stuff which smells so much?
>>i have ammonia here which is 7,5% in water and if you take a sniff it,
>>well, really you shouldn't take a
>>deep breath if you don't want to spill the bottle when dropping it. i was
>>told it is also "smelling
>>salt" which was used to wake up people who lost their consciousness in the
>>past.
>>
>>is this correct? which percentage ammonia is there in a suitable cleaning
>>solution?
>>
>>
>>for cleaning the cartridge from original ink residue, is it suitable to use
>>alcohol?
>
>
>The suppliers of ink jet refill kits sell a liquid for flushing out
>catridges before refilling them. It's probably IPA (iso-propyl alcohol). IPA
>is available from most electronic suppliers. It's also used in after-shave
>lotion, so perhaps you could try that. 8-)
>
>Leon
>--
>Leon Heller, G1HSM Tel: +44 1424 423947
>Email:leon_heller@...
>My web page: http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Hotmail messages direct to your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/msnmobile
>
>
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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] ipa, ethyl alcohol

2003-05-18 by Stefan Trethan

i am aware of the fact they are not the same.
maybe my english is too bad but i only wondered if denaturated alcohol (called spiritus here) is
ethanol. if yes, why does steve say denaturated alcohol dissolves plastic and i have not seen it doing
that.
so i assumed it must be a difference between denaturated alcohol and spiritus (ethanol).
if there is no difference i wantet to ask which plastics are in danger (because i assumed all are save).

glykol is of no use here (my printer is kept inside ;-).

so you see all ic quite clear (i read a good text about alcohols which refreshed my knoweledge).
the only think i wanted to have cleared is weather ethanol (ethyl alcohol) dissolves plastics or not,
and if ipa does nor not (already not was stated).

regards
stefan

18.05.2003 02:01:38, "RandyL" <randy-list-address@...> wrote:

>No, they're not the same. Ethyl Alcohol is the kind you drink. isopropanol is rubbing alcohol, and

Ethylene Glycol is antifreeze. The two latter ones are deadly poison. All will disolve diferent
chemicals. I keep all three around for various uses.....hehe....hic...g

>
>RandyL
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Stefan Trethan
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 5:02 AM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] ipa, ethyl alcohol
>
>
> hi
>
> i read some information about ipa.
> i have read of it often for cleaning/solvent etc.
> i only saw a bottle of it once (with a terrible misspelled label on it).
> this was a strange brass bottle which had some kind of pressure tight valve which to pull back and

then

> the ipa flows out.. so i assumed this may evaporate very fast. is this right?
>
> i never saw it sold in any shop but found it as isopropanol which is only another name (is this
> correct?) in the list of a local chemical supplies shop.
>
> i also read it is used a cheap substitute for ethyl alcohol.
>
> but if it is only a substitute for ethyl alcohol i would rather use that.
> it is sold as "spiritus" here, which is ethyl alcohol (somewhere betewwn 96 and 98%).
> it is made undrinkable by some chemicals and so rather cheap because the taxes for alcoholic drinks
> don't apply.
>
> does anyone know what the differences (in using) of the both alcohols are and if ethyl alcohol ay

also

> be good for cleaning the old ink out of the cardridge?
>
> regards
> stefan
>
>
>
> 17.05.2003 09:08:25, "Leon Heller" <leon_heller@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >>From: Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...>
> >>Reply-To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> >>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> >>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] inkjet printing, floor polish, ammonia
> >>Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 20:34:12 +0200
> >>
> >>hi
> >>
> >>i will get my empty ink cartridges on monday.
> >>
> >>they were quite expensive, 5eur per cartridge.
> >>but this is much cheaper then buying new.
> >>
> >>no i'm wondering what may be best do clean it.
> >>nobody can answer my question about ammonia?
> >>someone stated ammonia is good for cleaning the floor polish, please tell
> >>me how much ammonia there is
> >>in a cleaning fluid. i have no idea. am i right assuming ammonia to be the
> >>stuff which smells so much?
> >>i have ammonia here which is 7,5% in water and if you take a sniff it,
> >>well, really you shouldn't take a
> >>deep breath if you don't want to spill the bottle when dropping it. i was
> >>told it is also "smelling
> >>salt" which was used to wake up people who lost their consciousness in the
> >>past.
> >>
> >>is this correct? which percentage ammonia is there in a suitable cleaning
> >>solution?
> >>
> >>
> >>for cleaning the cartridge from original ink residue, is it suitable to use
> >>alcohol?
> >
> >
> >The suppliers of ink jet refill kits sell a liquid for flushing out
> >catridges before refilling them. It's probably IPA (iso-propyl alcohol). IPA
> >is available from most electronic suppliers. It's also used in after-shave
> >lotion, so perhaps you could try that. 8-)
> >
> >Leon
> >--
> >Leon Heller, G1HSM Tel: +44 1424 423947
> >Email:leon_heller@...
> >My web page: http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller
> >
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> >
> >
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> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] ipa, ethyl alcohol

2003-05-18 by Leon Heller

>From: Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...>
>Reply-To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] ipa, ethyl alcohol
>Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 08:48:35 +0200
>
>i am aware of the fact they are not the same.
>maybe my english is too bad but i only wondered if denaturated alcohol
>(called spiritus here) is
>ethanol. if yes, why does steve say denaturated alcohol dissolves plastic
>and i have not seen it doing
>that.
>so i assumed it must be a difference between denaturated alcohol and
>spiritus (ethanol).
>if there is no difference i wantet to ask which plastics are in danger
>(because i assumed all are save).

Denatured alcohol contains methanol, to stop people drinking it. The
methanol in it might be more likely to dissolve some plastics.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM Tel: +44 1424 423947
Email:leon_heller@...
My web page: http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] ipa, ethyl alcohol

2003-05-18 by Stefan Trethan

i'm wondering if there is methanol in any spiritus.

i think you are right, this may dissove plastics.

do you think there are also other substances used or it methanol the usual stuff to make it undrinkable?

i ask this because i thought till now denaturated alcohol is save to use on plastics but i'm not sure if
there is any which isnt (and don't want a surprise).

also the concentration of ethanol in "spiritus" varies over a wide range.
from the full 96% achieveable by distilling down to 80% i read everything.
i really HATE that tey don't write the ingredients on the bottles.

i will try to ask the manufacturer.

thank you for this suggestion..

regards
stefan

18.05.2003 10:07:34, "Leon Heller" <leon_heller@...> wrote:

>
>
>>From: Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...>
>>Reply-To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] ipa, ethyl alcohol
>>Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 08:48:35 +0200
>>
>>i am aware of the fact they are not the same.
>>maybe my english is too bad but i only wondered if denaturated alcohol
>>(called spiritus here) is
>>ethanol. if yes, why does steve say denaturated alcohol dissolves plastic
>>and i have not seen it doing
>>that.
>>so i assumed it must be a difference between denaturated alcohol and
>>spiritus (ethanol).
>>if there is no difference i wantet to ask which plastics are in danger
>>(because i assumed all are save).
>
>Denatured alcohol contains methanol, to stop people drinking it. The
>methanol in it might be more likely to dissolve some plastics.
>
>Leon
>--
>Leon Heller, G1HSM Tel: +44 1424 423947
>Email:leon_heller@...
>My web page: http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today!
>http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
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>
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>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] ipa, ethyl alcohol

2003-05-18 by Leon Heller

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] ipa, ethyl alcohol

> i'm wondering if there is methanol in any spiritus.
>
> i think you are right, this may dissove plastics.
>
> do you think there are also other substances used or it methanol the usual
stuff to make it undrinkable?
>
> i ask this because i thought till now denaturated alcohol is save to use
on plastics but i'm not sure if
> there is any which isnt (and don't want a surprise).
>
> also the concentration of ethanol in "spiritus" varies over a wide range.
> from the full 96% achieveable by distilling down to 80% i read everything.
> i really HATE that tey don't write the ingredients on the bottles.
>
>
> i will try to ask the manufacturer.

In the UK, 'methylated spirit' is ethanol, methanol, pyridine (IIRC),
parafin (kerosene) and a purple dye. Industrial 'methylated spirit' is
simply ethanol and methanol, but is difficult to buy.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
leon_heller@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

Re: ipa, ethyl alcohol

2003-05-18 by Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Leon Heller" <leon_heller@h...>
wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@g...>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 12:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] ipa, ethyl alcohol
>
>
> > i'm wondering if there is methanol in any spiritus.
> >
> > i think you are right, this may dissove plastics.
> >
> > do you think there are also other substances used or it methanol

the usual

> stuff to make it undrinkable?
> >
> > i ask this because i thought till now denaturated alcohol is save

to use

> on plastics but i'm not sure if
> > there is any which isnt (and don't want a surprise).

Over here, Denatured Alcohol is sold in hardware stores as a paint
stripper for some kinds of paint.

Here's a site that lists denatured alcohol as a mixture of ethanol
(grain alcohol), isopropanol, methanol, and methyl isobutyl ketone:

http://hillbrothers.com/msds/denaalco.htm

Definitely not safe.

BTW, I believe "Ethanol" is shorthand for "Ethyl Alcohol", same for
the other varieties. Ethyl, methyl, ispropyl, etc describe part of the
chemical structure. I found this out while researching types of
cyanoacrylate for the NW Propmasters list. There is ethyl
cyanoacrylate and methyl cyanoacrylate, and various mixtures that go
into them to change their characteristics.

> > also the concentration of ethanol in "spiritus" varies over a wide

range.

> > from the full 96% achieveable by distilling down to 80% i read

everything.

> > i really HATE that tey don't write the ingredients on the bottles.
> >
> >
> > i will try to ask the manufacturer.
>
> In the UK, 'methylated spirit' is ethanol, methanol, pyridine (IIRC),
> parafin (kerosene) and a purple dye. Industrial 'methylated spirit' is
> simply ethanol and methanol, but is difficult to buy.
>
> Leon

What mixtures we make.

I use 99% isopropanol for cleaning VCRs and anything else that uses
magnetic media, occassionally I use denatured alcohol on the heads if
I get some hardened build-up. Only sparingly, though. Can be quite
nasty stuff.

Steve Greenfield

Re: Cleaning cartridges and color in floor polish for etch resist

2003-05-18 by Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan
<stefan_trethan@g...> wrote:

> why is food coloring not pigmented?

It is a dye. I've got some red here, says "FD&C Reds 40 and 3, adn
Propylparaben (as a preservative)".

FD&C Red 40 and 3 are mentioned specifically on several official sites
as "dyes, colorants" including this one:

http://www.kochcolor.com/foodsdrugscosmeticspricelist.htm

> you soak it in ipa?
> i fear that the ones i get will also not clean up!
> was it clogged by inkjet ink or "some experimental color"?
>
> how long was it lying around dry?

I think the next one I'm using only isopropyl alcohol to soak.

These are from thrift stores so I have no idea how long they sat. It
is unlikely any experimental inks were used in them.

Ingredients listed on one of my cartridges:
Glycerine
Ethylene Glycol
Isopropyl Alcohol

Steve Greenfield

Re: ipa, ethyl alcohol

2003-05-18 by Steve

Denatured alcohol seems to be a mixture of primarily ethanol. However,
it does contain some other stuff that may be why I've observed it
affecting plastic. It has never been a strong effect, but when you
work on consumer electronics the last thing you need is to be cleaning
smoke off a TV and have your rag stick to a thin melted layer of plastic.

Not all plastics are the same- nylon is unaffected by quite a lot of
solvents, for instance. A glue for PVC may hardly touch some other
kind of plastic like plexiglass.

Steve Greenfield, not a chemist just bumbling along

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "RandyL"
<randy-list-address@t...> wrote:

> No, they're not the same. Ethyl Alcohol is the kind you drink.

isopropanol is rubbing alcohol, and Ethylene Glycol is antifreeze. The
two latter ones are deadly poison. All will disolve diferent
chemicals. I keep all three around for various uses.....hehe....hic...g

>
> RandyL

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: ipa, ethyl alcohol

2003-05-18 by Stefan Trethan

i see it isn't save to assume "spiritus" to leave alone plastics.
it is quite the same as denatured alcohol, also the ingredients vary.

i tried to ask the manufacturer of the bottle i have.
has bad webpage, no mailcontact.
so i simply will buy the next bottle of a manufacturer who has web support and ask for the ingredients.

i think the safest would be to try it on a small hidden spot / sample of the material.

or buying very expensive pure ethanol.

>>
>>BTW, I believe "Ethanol" is shorthand for "Ethyl Alcohol", same for
>>the other varieties. Ethyl, methyl, ispropyl, etc describe part of the
>>chemical structure. I found this out while researching types of
>>cyanoacrylate for the NW Propmasters list. There is ethyl
>>cyanoacrylate and methyl cyanoacrylate, and various mixtures that go
>>into them to change their characteristics.

that's true.
in US i think it is more common to say Ethyl Alcohol but here definitely ethanol is standard.
i read some good texts about alcohol and plastics, which refreshed my knoweledge about it from school.
there are also some good explanations why different alcohols attack different plastics but the texts are
german and my knoweledge is too bad to translate them, i think you may find similar descriptions in
english on the web.

i hope you get your cartridges unclogged!
(i hope i get mine unclogged too)

we will see tomorrow i think.

the conversion of the printer did work well, it can now be used as a flatbed printer.
i have the transport rollers moving a big pcb (a4). like a hp7475a plotter does.
this is simple enogh for me to make.
on this plate the to be printed pcb is fixed.

regards
stefan

18.05.2003 17:29:19, "Steve" <alienrelics@...> wrote:

>Denatured alcohol seems to be a mixture of primarily ethanol. However,
>it does contain some other stuff that may be why I've observed it
>affecting plastic. It has never been a strong effect, but when you
>work on consumer electronics the last thing you need is to be cleaning
>smoke off a TV and have your rag stick to a thin melted layer of plastic.
>
>Not all plastics are the same- nylon is unaffected by quite a lot of
>solvents, for instance. A glue for PVC may hardly touch some other
>kind of plastic like plexiglass.
>
>Steve Greenfield, not a chemist just bumbling along
>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "RandyL"
><randy-list-address@t...> wrote:
>> No, they're not the same. Ethyl Alcohol is the kind you drink.
>isopropanol is rubbing alcohol, and Ethylene Glycol is antifreeze. The
>two latter ones are deadly poison. All will disolve diferent
>chemicals. I keep all three around for various uses.....hehe....hic...g
>>
>> RandyL
>
>
>
>
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>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
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