Homebrew PCBs

Having problem with sharpie pens, the ink is lifting off in places,
and sometimes even flotas away in the shape it was!

Its odd looking at a hols and a short trace washing round in your
etchant, like a tadpole........

Do some colors really work better than others, I can only get blue at
the moment.

Do some other pens work better?


-- 

Lez

On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 12:16:13 +0100, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:

> Having problem with sharpie pens, the ink is lifting off in places,
> and sometimes even flotas away in the shape it was!
> Its odd looking at a hols and a short trace washing round in your
> etchant, like a tadpole........
> Do some colors really work better than others, I can only get blue at
> the moment.
> Do some other pens work better?


I don't have sharpies here, but staedtler red permanent OHP pens are  
fairly good. Not perfect though, they'll still etch through sometimes.

Maybe they'll get more resistant if you cure them with heat, like inkjet  
ink?

ST

Oh yea, "i told you so". ;-)

> ST
>
> Oh yea, "i told you so". ;-)
>

Lol you did.

BUT I'm getting such good resolution the quality is beyond beliefe,
easily matches the 600dpi output from my laser, and its a one step
process if I can get something thats a good etch resist in pen format.

Maybe I should be looking at a varnish, or something like the wax
dribbler from about 6 months/year ago.

The carrige can easily track accurately with a whole pack of blutack
holding my heavy w900 on the pen carrier so I guess could easily move
the whole dremel around at speed.

Only issue is pen up/down is a small spring and tiny solonoid, but
possibly upgradable to a bigger solonoid with a bit of switching.

I dont think I can change pen up/down delays but must be a good length
/ dumb delay to allow for slow heavy pens as it has no sensor feedback
to see when the pen hits the paper.

Now the pen down on the hp sounds like a hammer............
(but I'm putting that back on ebay)

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Lez" <lez.briddon@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 11:16 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] sharpie pens


> Having problem with sharpie pens, the ink is lifting off in places,
> and sometimes even flotas away in the shape it was!
>
> Its odd looking at a hols and a short trace washing round in your
> etchant, like a tadpole........
>
> Do some colors really work better than others, I can only get blue at
> the moment.
>
> Do some other pens work better?

Staedtler Lumocolor are very good. You need to make sure that the copper is 
very clean, whatever you use. I used to use cellulose paint with a fine 
paintbrush; fine lines are possible if the paint is thinned somewhat.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
leon.heller@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

>  Staedtler Lumocolor are very good. You need to make sure that the copper is
>  very clean, whatever you use. I used to use cellulose paint with a fine
>  paintbrush; fine lines are possible if the paint is thinned somewhat.
>
>  Leon

Thanks for that wonderful idea! I happen to have some silver paint
that thins ok with celly thinners, and a 5ltr can of it in the shed, I
Was planning to redo my alloy wheels for the car!

Bet it melts the plastic pens............

I bet the thinners makes a good pcb wipe/degreaser too.

Lez

I have only used the black ones and it worked very well just the 
standard black sharpie maker.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:
>
> Having problem with sharpie pens, the ink is lifting off in places,
> and sometimes even flotas away in the shape it was!
> 
> Its odd looking at a hols and a short trace washing round in your
> etchant, like a tadpole........
> 
> Do some colors really work better than others, I can only get blue 
at

> the moment.
> 
> Do some other pens work better?
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Lez
>

On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 17:00:45 +0100, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:

>
> Thanks for that wonderful idea! I happen to have some silver paint
> that thins ok with celly thinners, and a 5ltr can of it in the shed, I
> Was planning to redo my alloy wheels for the car!

Who needs wheels when you can have PCBs? ;-)
BTW will alloy wheels look good painted? A few days ago on TV, i believe  
the show is called wheeler dealers or something, they had alloys restored.  
Said the guy sands and polishes them, and then laquers them with clear  
laquer. Looked like new! And they were a real mess before.

> Bet it melts the plastic pens............

Not if it's a PP/PE pen.
The plotter pens that came with my HP looked like styrene (will probably  
dissolve), but the other metal-tipped pens i had were resistant.

> I bet the thinners makes a good pcb wipe/degreaser too.

Nice and unhealthy, too! Why not simply use acetone?

ST

> Said the guy sands and polishes them, and then laquers them with clear
> laquer. Looked like new! And they were a real mess before.

I've thought of putting a big buffing wheel in the drill, polished
ally looks like chrome...

>
> > I bet the thinners makes a good pcb wipe/degreaser too.
>
> Nice and unhealthy, too! Why not simply use acetone?

Local chemist shop only stocks nail varnish remover, it leaves a
residue on the board that seems to upset the etching.

On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 19:06:56 +0100, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:

> I've thought of putting a big buffing wheel in the drill, polished
> ally looks like chrome...


They didn't show how it was done exactly, but i expect something like  
that. You must laquer it clear though, to preserve it.
Are wheels originally laquered or anodized? I have steel rims myself  
(silver painted ;-))

> Local chemist shop only stocks nail varnish remover, it leaves a
> residue on the board that seems to upset the etching.

That is no good then. Maybe you can get denatured alcohol more easily.

ST

On 27/11/06, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 19:06:56 +0100, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:
>
> > I've thought of putting a big buffing wheel in the drill, polished
> > ally looks like chrome...
>
>
> They didn't show how it was done exactly, but i expect something like
> that. You must laquer it clear though, to preserve it.
> Are wheels originally laquered or anodized? I have steel rims myself
> (silver painted ;-))

They use a thick filler/primer, then silver paint, then lacquer, just
like a car I suppose.

Thats how I was going to re-junvinate them, anyhow.......
>
> > Local chemist shop only stocks nail varnish remover, it leaves a
> > residue on the board that seems to upset the etching.
>
> That is no good then. Maybe you can get denatured alcohol more easily.
>

Or vodka.......

I think cellulose thinners is the best thing I have available, apart
from petrol (gasoline), I'll try thinners tomorro when I come back
from pen shopping.

Sharpie has two types of pens now. The regular ones do not have as
good of an ink in them as they used to. The old ink is still available
and is sold in the Sharpie Industrial pens (now called super permanent
ink ... funny, I thought permanent was permanent ;-) ).  This always
worked ok for me (not really great, but ok). I always used black but
never tried other colors (hmmmmm).


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:

>
> Having problem with sharpie pens, the ink is lifting off in places,
> and sometimes even flotas away in the shape it was!
> 
> Its odd looking at a hols and a short trace washing round in your
> etchant, like a tadpole........
> 
> Do some colors really work better than others, I can only get blue at
> the moment.
> 
> Do some other pens work better?
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Lez
>

oneacmename:

I have never had a problems with the Sanford Sharpie black permanent 
markers.

I notice, however, that not all of the Sanford Sharpie markers carry the 
ASTM
compliance notice on the pen. This ASTM certification refers to certain 
volatile,
spirit-based materials used in the pen. I believe that the spirit-based 
materials
are the elements that make the ink impervious to water. I have a number of
various color Sanford Sharpie pens that do not have the ASTM info on them,
and I would suspect that they are not as impervious to water as the ones 
that
carry the mark.

I'll have to go back an read the particular ASTM spec (ASTM D-4236) but
if I recall, it has to do with drafting/art/graphics items that contain 
volitiles that
are not good to breathe on a regular basis.

Of course, one must make sure that the copper is completly clean before
anything can adhere to it. Copper is a rather unstable material, and it
is prone to pick up contamination from virtually everything in the
air around it.

Someone else may have more info on this situation.
ASTM = American Society for Testing Materials

Roland F. Harriston

On 27/11/06, Bert <bertd.geo@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sharpie has two types of pens now. The regular ones do not have as
>  good of an ink in them as they used to.

And I could wager a bet as to what I'm on..........

>The old ink is still available
>  and is sold in the Sharpie Industrial pens (now called super permanent
>  ink ... funny, I thought permanent was permanent ;-) ).  This always
>  worked ok for me (not really great, but ok). I always used black but
>  never tried other colors (hmmmmm).

The black one cost more than the blue! (I did get a black originally,
but in all this pen cutting and testing, dont know where it is)

The black one is also (oddly) a push action pen like a ballpoint, and
has a little flap-door to cover the nib when not in use.

Thats the only two the WHS sell, and the only pen supplier in my area,
we are not well catered for, unless you want ice cream or a trip up
the river, my town is useless.

In a message dated 11/27/2006 5:34:09 A.M. Central Standard Time,  
lez.briddon@... writes:

Do  some other pens work better?



I have READ that German-made Städtler red works good as  lacquer paint, but I 
have NOT been able to find those locally.  
 
Sharpie black is all I have tried, and IF the copper has been  CLEANED with 
lacquer-thinner and dried with paper-towels, and NEVER touched,  that will 
"sorta work".  But the Sharpie ink was never intended as "etch  resist" so it is 
only "by accident" that it works at all.  I suspect phases  of the moon have to 
be JUST right for it to do at all.  I have NO idea how  the TEMPERATURE of 
the etchant affects the "life" of the Sharpie ink on the  copper, but I think 
SPEED in handling and clearly GREATER than usual care is  necessary for ANYthing 
good to happen with that!  The etch-resist pens  Radium Scat sold had a 
"thicker paint" but I haven't seen those in some time,  now.  No clue if they quit 
making those.  But they didn't have much  shelf-life at all!
 
Surely there is a reader of this group who has money to invest  who can open 
a little "PCB-Resist-Pen" factory and sell us EXCELLENT resist-pens  that will 
last for WEEKS, even if occasionally left OPEN overnight, for 69¢  each!   
Wot?        Jan  Rowland  


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 11/27/2006 5:44:24 A.M. Central Standard Time,  
stefan_trethan@... writes:

I don't  have sharpies here, but staedtler red permanent OHP pens are  
fairly  good.


I shoulda read-on!  ST would have much better access to  those, and he even 
already knew the best color, etc.!  Man sollte's  erwartet!  


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kiwi Edge Dressing is a shoe shine product used to re-blacken leather shoe
soles.  I tested it against a a sharpie pen I had on hand as etch resist.
The edge dressing seems impervious to the etchant.  I actually left the
board in the etchant long enough to completely etch both the naked copper
and the copper originally under the sharpie.

There was some undercutting as a result of the extended etch time.


On 11/28/06, JanRwl@... <JanRwl@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 11/27/2006 5:34:09 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> lez.briddon@... <lez.briddon%40googlemail.com> writes:
>
> Do some other pens work better?
>
> I have READ that German-made Städtler red works good as lacquer paint, but
> I
> have NOT been able to find those locally.
>
> Sharpie black is all I have tried, and IF the copper has been CLEANED with
>
> lacquer-thinner and dried with paper-towels, and NEVER touched, that will
> "sorta work". But the Sharpie ink was never intended as "etch resist" so
> it is
> only "by accident" that it works at all. I suspect phases of the moon have
> to
> be JUST right for it to do at all. I have NO idea how the TEMPERATURE of
> the etchant affects the "life" of the Sharpie ink on the copper, but I
> think
> SPEED in handling and clearly GREATER than usual care is necessary for
> ANYthing
> good to happen with that! The etch-resist pens Radium Scat sold had a
> "thicker paint" but I haven't seen those in some time, now. No clue if
> they quit
> making those. But they didn't have much shelf-life at all!
>
> Surely there is a reader of this group who has money to invest who can
> open
> a little "PCB-Resist-Pen" factory and sell us EXCELLENT resist-pens that
> will
> last for WEEKS, even if occasionally left OPEN overnight, for 69¢ each!
> Wot? Jan Rowland
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 28/11/06, Edward Slatt <ed.slatt@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Kiwi Edge Dressing is a shoe shine product
> used to re-blacken leather shoe

I like it, that has to be the best off the wall use yet, whatever made
you think of it !


Well I just got back from a trip to the pen suppliers, no staedtler's,
not stocked anymore they have changed to 'artline', looks very
similar.

Also bought a UNI paint marker (misubishi pencil co), comes in white
(I went for white) silver and gold, I know it wont be real base metals
but decided to avoid those in case the 'metal' was really a metal.

The white drawn on my PCB by hand looks fantastic, shame they did not
do a blue, but I bet being white it would plot nicely on the 'other
side' of the board for component legends etc

I'm off out again soon to pick son up from work, will try Staples(uk)

Lez

My brother went to the Naval Academy.  Edge dressing was sometimes used to
pick on the underclassmen.  It is so difficult to get off skin that the
midshipmen store was asked to stop carrying it.  Bodes well for its
durability-

On 11/28/06, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:
>
>   On 28/11/06, Edward Slatt <ed.slatt@... <ed.slatt%40gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Kiwi Edge Dressing is a shoe shine product
> > used to re-blacken leather shoe
>
> I like it, that has to be the best off the wall use yet, whatever made
> you think of it !
>
> Well I just got back from a trip to the pen suppliers, no staedtler's,
> not stocked anymore they have changed to 'artline', looks very
> similar.
>
> Also bought a UNI paint marker (misubishi pencil co), comes in white
> (I went for white) silver and gold, I know it wont be real base metals
> but decided to avoid those in case the 'metal' was really a metal.
>
> The white drawn on my PCB by hand looks fantastic, shame they did not
> do a blue, but I bet being white it would plot nicely on the 'other
> side' of the board for component legends etc
>
> I'm off out again soon to pick son up from work, will try Staples(uk)
>
> Lez
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

OK I can now say with no uncertainty that this WHITE Uni Paint Pen is the
best etch resist (in fecl) that I have ever used, I had problems getting it
off !


I just wrote on the surface, as quick as I could to try to get a thin line
(not width but 'height') and drew a few pretty stars etc.

It resisted hot etching, agitation, and severe wiping of the surface with an
acid wet clotch, it resisted the nail varnish remover and I had to really
scrub hard to remove it.

It works fine in the plotter if a little 'wet' I may have to make future
boards take that into account, or slow the plotter

Need to make a pen holder for it now, then I can do a real world test.

Its looking very very good for this pen.


Lez.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Did a "Google" and came up with this: 
http://www.duall.com/store/product/103317.103317/calligraphy-duo-markers-black.html 
Not sure if this is what is referred to as "the 
Staedtler" marker.  Does say: "Odorless pigmented 
ink flows smoothly and retains brilliant color
Lightfast and waterproof ink

At 12:55 AM 11/28/2006, you wrote:
>
>In a message dated 11/27/2006 5:34:09 A.M. Central Standard Time,
>lez.briddon@... writes:
>
>Do  some other pens work better?
>
>
>
>I have READ that German-made Städtler red works good as  lacquer paint, but I
>have NOT been able to find those locally.
>
>Sharpie black is all I have tried, and IF the copper has been  CLEANED with
>lacquer-thinner and dried with paper-towels, and NEVER touched,  that will
>"sorta work".  But the Sharpie ink was never 
>intended as "etch  resist" so it is
>only "by accident" that it works at all.  I 
>suspect phases  of the moon have to
>be JUST right for it to do at all.  I have NO idea how  the TEMPERATURE of
>the etchant affects the "life" of the Sharpie ink on the  copper, but I think
>SPEED in handling and clearly GREATER than usual 
>care is  necessary for ANYthing
>good to happen with that!  The etch-resist pens  Radium Scat sold had a
>"thicker paint" but I haven't seen those in some 
>time,  now.  No clue if they quit
>making those.  But they didn't have much  shelf-life at all!
>
>Surely there is a reader of this group who has money to invest  who can open
>a little "PCB-Resist-Pen" factory and sell us 
>EXCELLENT resist-pens  that will
>last for WEEKS, even if occasionally left OPEN overnight, for 69¢  each!
>Wot?        Jan  Rowland
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

         73,
         Mike, K4GMH 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well I just got back from my trips to staples(uk) and no stocks of Staedtler


Chaper on the sharpie, but non of the sharpies have any health warning, so
maybe our sharpies are of a lesser quality ink.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Leon Heller, G1HSM
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
leon.heller@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lez" <lez.briddon@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 5:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] sharpie pens


> Well I just got back from my trips to staples(uk) and no stocks of 
> Staedtler

They are available from lots of suppliers, here's one:

http://www.euroffice.co.uk/itm_show.asp?G1418=Staedtler-Lumocolor-318-Fine&C133=&S2215=OHP---Staedtler

That's the same as the one I bought some years ago. I use it for marking 
terminals on my home-made PCBs, not for making them.

Leon