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Any info about this technique?

Any info about this technique?

2006-11-15 by Neil Baylis

I don't know what this is called, but I assume there are folks making PCBs
this way:

1: Coat the copper board with a thin film of lacquer
2: Use a laser to selectively burn away the lacquer leaving bare copper
3: Etch

Can anyone point me to info about this technique, especially what kind of
lacquer to use, and an idea of how much laser power would be needed. I've
noticed that I can get dark materials to smoke with about 100mW of laser
power. I guess that with the right lacquer, this technique could be done
with about 1 Watt laser power, which is easy to obtain.

Obviously, the laser would have to be mounted on some kind of x/y plotter
device.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Any info about this technique?

2006-11-16 by Leon Heller

----- Original Message ----- 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Neil Baylis" <neil.baylis@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 11:11 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Any info about this technique?


>I don't know what this is called, but I assume there are folks making PCBs
> this way:
>
> 1: Coat the copper board with a thin film of lacquer
> 2: Use a laser to selectively burn away the lacquer leaving bare copper
> 3: Etch
>
> Can anyone point me to info about this technique, especially what kind of
> lacquer to use, and an idea of how much laser power would be needed. I've
> noticed that I can get dark materials to smoke with about 100mW of laser
> power. I guess that with the right lacquer, this technique could be done
> with about 1 Watt laser power, which is easy to obtain.
>
> Obviously, the laser would have to be mounted on some kind of x/y plotter
> device.

I tried something like that many years ago for an RF circuit by coating a 
board with paint and scratching away the areas to be etched, something like 
isolation milling. It worked OK. A similar technique was to apply adhesive 
film to a board, cut through the film and remove it where required.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
leon.heller@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

Re: Any info about this technique?

2006-11-16 by lcdpublishing

Neil,

This process sounds very interesting using a laser.  I had planned to 
try something similar using the machine I am building but a "Scratch 
tool" as opposed to a laser.  I always suspected that isolation 
milling would be very dependant on two things:
1) a tool that will cut good, without burrs
2) a spindle with high enough speed and zero - runout at the tool

To avoid those problems completely, I was planning on using a spring-
loaded scratch awl type tool.  Then, just run the CNC program path 
for the isolation milling to scratch away the resist.  

For the resist, I was thinking about using Dykem which is a lacquer 
based product used in machine shops as a layout colorant.  It will 
stick to all metals, drys fast, and works very good with 
the "Scratch" removal process as that is what it is designed to do. 
You can purchase it in spray cans, brush-bottles, or little 
dispensers with a pad applicator.  I figured I would use the spray 
can version as that should give the most consistant coating.

Now your idea of a laser would take away another mechanical aspect of 
this process which is appealing, but I know enough about lasers and 
myself to know that I will probably hurt myself with one ;-)

Can you tell me where I might find a laser that is suitable for 
this?  Even with the risks involved, I would like to consider it.

Chris



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Neil Baylis" <neil.baylis@...> 
wrote:
>
> I don't know what this is called, but I assume there are folks 
making PCBs
> this way:
> 
> 1: Coat the copper board with a thin film of lacquer
> 2: Use a laser to selectively burn away the lacquer leaving bare 
copper
> 3: Etch
> 
> Can anyone point me to info about this technique, especially what 
kind of
> lacquer to use, and an idea of how much laser power would be 
needed. I've
> noticed that I can get dark materials to smoke with about 100mW of 
laser
> power. I guess that with the right lacquer, this technique could be 
done
> with about 1 Watt laser power, which is easy to obtain.
> 
> Obviously, the laser would have to be mounted on some kind of x/y 
plotter
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> device.
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Any info about this technique?

2006-11-16 by Cristian

This is not an answer, but I think is good to find an IR laser, as 
they are cheap,  and a IR-absorbant lacquer, maybe black.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>Can you tell me where I might find a laser that is suitable for
>this? Even with the risks involved, I would like to consider it.
>
>Chris

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Any info about this technique?

2006-11-16 by Dan Pickard

lcdpublishing <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:     Neil,

This process sounds very interesting using a laser. I had planned to 
try something similar using the machine I am building but a "Scratch 
tool" as opposed to a laser. I always suspected that isolation 
milling would be very dependant on two things:
1) a tool that will cut good, without burrs
2) a spindle with high enough speed and zero - runout at the tool

To avoid those problems completely, I was planning on using a spring-
loaded scratch awl type tool. Then, just run the CNC program path 
for the isolation milling to scratch away the resist. 

For the resist, I was thinking about using Dykem which is a lacquer 
based product used in machine shops as a layout colorant. It will 
stick to all metals, drys fast, and works very good with 
the "Scratch" removal process as that is what it is designed to do. 
You can purchase it in spray cans, brush-bottles, or little 
dispensers with a pad applicator. I figured I would use the spray 
can version as that should give the most consistant coating.

Now your idea of a laser would take away another mechanical aspect of 
this process which is appealing, but I know enough about lasers and 
myself to know that I will probably hurt myself with one ;-)

Can you tell me where I might find a laser that is suitable for 
this? Even with the risks involved, I would like to consider it.

Chris



Chris,
   
  I also have been working with dykem on circuit boards.  I had limited success with a Roland XY plotter and a awl for a pen. I found that it was very hard to isolate all the IC pins. The plotter didn't have enough pressure or speed to get a good scratch.
   
  I've also been working with a co-worker that just bought an Epilog laser engraver for $30K.  I asked him if he could cut the copper from circuit boards for me. To make along story short it didn't work. Not enough power (60W) and warped boards. I never thought of cutting dykem from the board with his laser though.  I'll pass this info on to him and see if we can try it again.  You can probably find a laser engraving shop in your location. They charge by laser cutting time and if you should be able to cut fast with little power, the fee should be minimal.
   
  Dan

 
---------------------------------
Sponsored Link

Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $510,000 Mortgage for $1,698/mo -   Calculate new house payment

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Any info about this technique?

2006-11-16 by Neil Baylis

There are always plenty of laser diodes available on eBay. I have
enough experience with them to make the laser part work. It involves
getting a laser diode, making a diode driver, and adding a focusing
lens. The electronics are simple, but tricky because the laser diodes
are easily destroyed. The lasers I'm thinking of are IR, 808 nm at 1
to 4 watts continuous power. Such a laser is nowhere near powerful
enough to affect the underlying copper, but will burn through black
paper, electrical tape, etc.

It would also be possible to simply buy an integrated laser module,
complete with optics and drive electronics, but that would be well
over $1000.

Another possibility would be to use a CO2 laser. These are much
larger, and require water cooling. These may be powerful enough to cut
through the copper, but I don't want to go there.. those are quite
dangerous lasers, and I don't want to deal with vaporized copper
fumes. Vaporized dykem or some such thing seems doable.

I guess I'll just have to make a diode laser assembly and experiment
with various lacquers to find one that will resist the etchant, absorb
IR, and not catch fire under the laser.

http://www.roithner-laser.com is a supplier in Austria that has
complete laser modules. There's someone on eBay selling complete CO2
lasers from China at about 30 Watts. These would easily do the job at
high speed, but not for the faint of heart.

Assuming I made that part work, what would be a good XY plotter to
look for? What software do I need to plot out the negative parts (the
parts that need to be removed) instead of the positive parts?

Neil

On 11/16/06, lcdpublishing <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Neil,
>
>  This process sounds very interesting using a laser. I had planned to
>  try something similar using the machine I am building but a "Scratch
>  tool" as opposed to a laser. I always suspected that isolation
>  milling would be very dependant on two things:
>  1) a tool that will cut good, without burrs
>  2) a spindle with high enough speed and zero - runout at the tool
>
>  To avoid those problems completely, I was planning on using a spring-
>  loaded scratch awl type tool. Then, just run the CNC program path
>  for the isolation milling to scratch away the resist.
>
>  For the resist, I was thinking about using Dykem which is a lacquer
>  based product used in machine shops as a layout colorant. It will
>  stick to all metals, drys fast, and works very good with
>  the "Scratch" removal process as that is what it is designed to do.
>  You can purchase it in spray cans, brush-bottles, or little
>  dispensers with a pad applicator. I figured I would use the spray
>  can version as that should give the most consistant coating.
>
>  Now your idea of a laser would take away another mechanical aspect of
>  this process which is appealing, but I know enough about lasers and
>  myself to know that I will probably hurt myself with one ;-)
>
>  Can you tell me where I might find a laser that is suitable for
>  this? Even with the risks involved, I would like to consider it.
>
>  Chris
>
>  --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Neil Baylis" <neil.baylis@...>
>
>  wrote:
>  >
>  > I don't know what this is called, but I assume there are folks
>  making PCBs
>  > this way:
>  >
>  > 1: Coat the copper board with a thin film of lacquer
>  > 2: Use a laser to selectively burn away the lacquer leaving bare
>  copper
>  > 3: Etch
>  >
>  > Can anyone point me to info about this technique, especially what
>  kind of
>  > lacquer to use, and an idea of how much laser power would be
>  needed. I've
>  > noticed that I can get dark materials to smoke with about 100mW of
>  laser
>  > power. I guess that with the right lacquer, this technique could be
>  done
>  > with about 1 Watt laser power, which is easy to obtain.
>  >
>  > Obviously, the laser would have to be mounted on some kind of x/y
>  plotter
>  > device.
>  >
>  >
>  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>  >
>
>
>
>  


-- 
http://www.pixpopuli.com

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Any info about this technique?

2006-11-16 by Cristian

>  What software do I need to plot out the negative parts (the
>parts that need to be removed) instead of the positive parts?

Any isolation sw from any milling pcb machine will do the job.
Also some ulp from Eagle.
You can try the demo of IsoCAM from www.bungard.de
Cristian

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Any info about this technique?

2006-11-16 by Neil Baylis

Dan,

I'm not surprised that the 60W laser wouldn't cut copper. Copper is such a
good conductor of heat that you need a pretty hefty laser to ablate it. I
think that cutting through a lacquer on top of the copper would turn this
into an advantage, and allow very clean cuts to be made.

One problem might be that the beam might be too small to cut away large
areas. To a certain extent this could be solved by defocusing the beam
slightly.

I wonder whether the laser engraver could also be used to drill holes after
the copper is etched. How does the laser engraver deal with toxic fumes?

Neil


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Any info about this technique?

2006-11-16 by john80014

Copper is used as a reflector in CO2 lasers.  Most materials will 
absorb CO2 emissons. 

A 60 Watt CO2 laser would blow holes through the fiberglass in a 
heart beat.   Generally you will use a focusing lense to narrow the 
beam and intensify it.  with a 2.5 inch focal length you would 
probably get a .003 - .004 spot size. 

A 100 Watt CO2 cut .025" mild steel @ 130ipm using a 40psi O2 assist

Cutting FR4 with 60 Watts,  probably 40 ipm using 50-60 psi of air 
assist


As to fume extraction.  Generally the cabinet will have something 
similiar to a dryer hose that is vented externally.  in some cases 
special filters are used when cutting certain materials.


Cutting PVC - gets you HCI Hydrochloric Acid

Cutting Kevlar - gets you cyanide

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Any info about this technique?

2006-11-16 by Cláudio E. Elicker

On Thursday 16 November 2006 11:22, lcdpublishing wrote:

---snip---

> Can you tell me where I might find a laser that is suitable for
> this?  Even with the risks involved, I would like to consider it.
>
> Chris

There is very cool lasers in http://www.wickedlasers.com
Dunno if they would be suitable for the task.
Anyway I guess it will be lots of fun.

[]'s
Cláudio

Re: Any info about this technique?

2006-11-17 by Steve

Everything old is new again.... ;')

Check out this thread:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/message/259

Metal layout fluid and specifically Dykem mentioned here:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/message/261

I did some testing with a different brand of layout spray and found
that if the layout fluid is not fully dry, it tears. A day or two to
dry or short bake and it makes nice lines, not as nice as photoetching
but what is?

Scratch N Etch in Files:
<http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs/files/Scratch_And_Etch/>

I emptied out an HP plotter pen. Put a carbide tipped scratch tip in
it, filled the top with lead shot and glued it in for weight. Played
with it in a small HP plotter.

Someone tested the etched width of a line. I don't recall any
parameters of the test other than it being an HP plotter with a
carbide tipped head and Dykem marking fluid. I think it was 0.006"
from one pass, 0.011" from two passes (no offset).

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Neil,
> 
> This process sounds very interesting using a laser.  I had planned to 
> try something similar using the machine I am building but a "Scratch 
> tool" as opposed to a laser.  I always suspected that isolation 
> milling would be very dependant on two things:
> 1) a tool that will cut good, without burrs
> 2) a spindle with high enough speed and zero - runout at the tool
> 
> To avoid those problems completely, I was planning on using a spring-
> loaded scratch awl type tool.  Then, just run the CNC program path 
> for the isolation milling to scratch away the resist.  
> 
> For the resist, I was thinking about using Dykem which is a lacquer 
> based product used in machine shops as a layout colorant.  It will 
> stick to all metals, drys fast, and works very good with 
> the "Scratch" removal process as that is what it is designed to do. 
> You can purchase it in spray cans, brush-bottles, or little 
> dispensers with a pad applicator.  I figured I would use the spray 
> can version as that should give the most consistant coating.

Re: Any info about this technique?

2006-11-19 by Len Warner

At 8:14 am ((PST)) Fri Nov 17, 2006, john80014 wrote:
>3a. Re: Any info about this technique?
>     Posted by: "john80014" jhewatt@... john80014
>     Date: Fri Nov 17, 2006 8:14 am ((PST))
>
>Copper is used as a reflector in CO2 lasers.  Most materials will
>absorb CO2 emissons.
>
>A 60 Watt CO2 laser would blow holes through the fiberglass in a
>heart beat.   Generally you will use a focusing lense to narrow the
>beam and intensify it.  with a 2.5 inch focal length you would
>probably get a .003 - .004 spot size.
>
>A 100 Watt CO2 cut .025" mild steel @ 130ipm using a 40psi O2 assist
>
>Cutting FR4 with 60 Watts,  probably 40 ipm using 50-60 psi of air
>assist

You won't get anywhere near as much energy assist from
burning(?) FR4 (Fire Resistant grade 4) fibreglass in 60psi air
as from burning molten steel in 40psi O2. Do you have
experience or references to support the above cutting speeds?


Regards, LenW

Re: Any info about this technique?

2006-11-27 by john80014

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Len Warner <yahoo@...> wrote:
>
> At 8:14 am ((PST)) Fri Nov 17, 2006, john80014 wrote:
> >3a. Re: Any info about this technique?
> >     Posted by: "john80014" jhewatt@... john80014
> >     Date: Fri Nov 17, 2006 8:14 am ((PST))
> >
> >Copper is used as a reflector in CO2 lasers.  Most materials will
> >absorb CO2 emissons.
> >
> >A 60 Watt CO2 laser would blow holes through the fiberglass in a
> >heart beat.   Generally you will use a focusing lense to narrow the
> >beam and intensify it.  with a 2.5 inch focal length you would
> >probably get a .003 - .004 spot size.
> >
> >A 100 Watt CO2 cut .025" mild steel @ 130ipm using a 40psi O2 
assist
> >
> >Cutting FR4 with 60 Watts,  probably 40 ipm using 50-60 psi of air
> >assist
> 
> You won't get anywhere near as much energy assist from
> burning(?) FR4 (Fire Resistant grade 4) fibreglass in 60psi air
> as from burning molten steel in 40psi O2. Do you have
> experience or references to support the above cutting speeds?
> 
> 
> Regards, LenW
>

Yep straight from synrad applications.  there is a section there 
discusing the applications of cutting of different materials and how 
they solved the customers problems.  there is a website ( I will try 
to find the URL)  of a guy cutting either .125 or .0625 stainless 
with 100 watss and shop air assist.  not sure how fast he is moving 
but it cuts. and my own experiences w/140 co2 and 1kw trumpf.  you 
really need to have a pretty accurate depth of field set for co2 
lasers.  sometime you need to be a little higher above the material 
sometime lower.  more pressure less pressure.  setting the focus to 
just the right amount.  unfocused less power density.

Again you will not cut the Copper!  it will reflect.  Nd:YAG will get 
the job done though