Homebrew PCBs

Hello,

    After a few small transfer tests (without etching) I made the 
first real board, quite good !
    I used a glossy paper (not photo !) which is covered with a 
layers of chalk on both sides (one side should be enough though). It 
is a rather thick paper and it's quite cheap (about 20-30 cents in 
small qty). It is used for hand drawings I think.
    The printer is Canon LBP800, toner set on "Darkest".
    Good points: 
- the transfer was almost perfect - used iron on maximum with a thick 
cloth between the paper and the iron, moved the iron around 
constantly (2 minutes) and pre-heated the board for 1 min or so
- the paper gets removed quite easily after a few min in warm water
- I have a TSSOP20 pattern which turned out pretty nice

   Bad points:
- it is very sensitive to pressure when ironing. First I used some 
more pressure and the traces expanded a lot; second try I used very 
little pressure (like about 2-3 times the force of leaning the hand 
on the iron) and the result was OK. I think this is also related to 
the fact that the paper is quite thick.
- the chalk from the paper was not so easily removed from the board - 
I had to scrub a little with a toothpick here and there; Some tests 
that I made some 2 months ago were much better in this respect, so I 
assume it may be related to the paper "aging", maybe it absorbed some 
water (?)

Best regards,

Mihai

Mahai:

Can you give use the brand name of the paper you used?
Also, if the paper has a type number, catalog number,
or any other designator, and where it can be purchased,
please let us know.

Thanks

Roland F. Harriston
*********************
mihaiv72 wrote:

>
> Hello,
>
> After a few small transfer tests (without etching) I made the
> first real board, quite good !
> I used a glossy paper (not photo !) which is covered with a
> layers of chalk on both sides (one side should be enough though). It
> is a rather thick paper and it's quite cheap (about 20-30 cents in
> small qty). It is used for hand drawings I think.
> The printer is Canon LBP800, toner set on "Darkest".
> Good points:
> - the transfer was almost perfect - used iron on maximum with a thick
> cloth between the paper and the iron, moved the iron around
> constantly (2 minutes) and pre-heated the board for 1 min or so
> - the paper gets removed quite easily after a few min in warm water
> - I have a TSSOP20 pattern which turned out pretty nice
>
> Bad points:
> - it is very sensitive to pressure when ironing. First I used some
> more pressure and the traces expanded a lot; second try I used very
> little pressure (like about 2-3 times the force of leaning the hand
> on the iron) and the result was OK. I think this is also related to
> the fact that the paper is quite thick.
> - the chalk from the paper was not so easily removed from the board -
> I had to scrub a little with a toothpick here and there; Some tests
> that I made some 2 months ago were much better in this respect, so I
> assume it may be related to the paper "aging", maybe it absorbed some
> water (?)
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mihai
>
>

Hello,

    Unfortunately I have no info about the brand or
catalog number, I bought it off the shelf by piece (I
mean not a full pack) so I have no details. Next time
I will go at that store I will ask for a full pack and
look for the brand/part number and share the info.
    I just asked for chalk coated paper.

Best regards,

Mihai
 

--- "Roland F. Harriston" <rolohar@...> wrote:

> Mahai:
> 
> Can you give use the brand name of the paper you
> used?
> Also, if the paper has a type number, catalog
> number,
> or any other designator, and where it can be
> purchased,
> please let us know.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Roland F. Harriston
> *********************
> mihaiv72 wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > After a few small transfer tests (without etching)
> I made the
> > first real board, quite good !
> > I used a glossy paper (not photo !) which is
> covered with a
> > layers of chalk on both sides (one side should be
> enough though). It
> > is a rather thick paper and it's quite cheap
> (about 20-30 cents in
> > small qty). It is used for hand drawings I think.
> > The printer is Canon LBP800, toner set on
> "Darkest".
> > Good points:
> > - the transfer was almost perfect - used iron on
> maximum with a thick
> > cloth between the paper and the iron, moved the
> iron around
> > constantly (2 minutes) and pre-heated the board
> for 1 min or so
> > - the paper gets removed quite easily after a few
> min in warm water
> > - I have a TSSOP20 pattern which turned out pretty
> nice
> >
> > Bad points:
> > - it is very sensitive to pressure when ironing.
> First I used some
> > more pressure and the traces expanded a lot;
> second try I used very
> > little pressure (like about 2-3 times the force of
> leaning the hand
> > on the iron) and the result was OK. I think this
> is also related to
> > the fact that the paper is quite thick.
> > - the chalk from the paper was not so easily
> removed from the board -
> > I had to scrub a little with a toothpick here and
> there; Some tests
> > that I made some 2 months ago were much better in
> this respect, so I
> > assume it may be related to the paper "aging",
> maybe it absorbed some
> > water (?)
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Mihai
> >
> >  
> 
> 




 
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Epson Photo paper works great for me! Made my first board 3 weeks ago and
it turned out marvelous. Ran the Epson Photo paper through a Dell 1710
printer. Ironed it on using an old iron at its highest setting. Placed
about 30 seconds of body weight on it followed by some pressing and
rubbing to make sure all the edges received enough preassure, too. The
paper floated away on its own after just a few seconds in warm water.
Absolutely no toner residue on the paper, nor any toner floating in the
water. Rubbed the board with my thumb to remove some slimy residue. Used
Ammonium Persulfate for etching, what a drag. Took nearly 45 minutes to
etch a tiny board (1-1/4" x 2-1/4"). But even the fine print etched fine.
No pinholes anywhere.

In my past (20 years ago) I did a fair number of homebrew board using the
photo positive method. I drafted the layout (ink on transparent paper)
using regular drafting tools. Exposed presensitized boards using a UV lamp
and etched in a heated agitated tank. It worked great. Making boards every
other week back then supplies stayed fresh as they were replenished
frequently.

About 8 years ago I tried making a board again. Bought a presensitized
board from Active Electronics. Things didn't work out. I strongly suspect
the board was too old. I learned a long time ago that a presensitized
board stored at room temperature for a long time looses its photo
sensitive characteristics. Since making baords was a rare occurance I
dropped the photo positive method in favour of toner transfer. I produced
a board, nothing to brag about, lots of pin holes, etc. The board worked
but I wasn't impressed. Been using punched proyect board ever since.
Tedious work that results in a single board rather then a 'template' that
can be used over and over...

I came across this group and decided to give toner transfer another shot.
The Epson Paper worked great! I read about sponge etching. Picked up some
green film to strengthen the toner if it turns out to be necessary...

Adi

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Adi Linden" <adiy@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 3:12 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner transfer works...


> Epson Photo paper works great for me! Made my first board 3 weeks ago and
> it turned out marvelous. Ran the Epson Photo paper through a Dell 1710
> printer. Ironed it on using an old iron at its highest setting. Placed
> about 30 seconds of body weight on it followed by some pressing and
> rubbing to make sure all the edges received enough preassure, too. The
> paper floated away on its own after just a few seconds in warm water.
> Absolutely no toner residue on the paper, nor any toner floating in the
> water. Rubbed the board with my thumb to remove some slimy residue. Used
> Ammonium Persulfate for etching, what a drag. Took nearly 45 minutes to
> etch a tiny board (1-1/4" x 2-1/4"). But even the fine print etched fine.
> No pinholes anywhere.

You probably didn't heat it. Warm ferric chloride takes about 10 minutes to 
etch a board with continuous agitation.

>
> About 8 years ago I tried making a board again. Bought a presensitized
> board from Active Electronics. Things didn't work out. I strongly suspect
> the board was too old. I learned a long time ago that a presensitized
> board stored at room temperature for a long time looses its photo
> sensitive characteristics. Since making baords was a rare occurance I
> dropped the photo positive method in favour of toner transfer. I produced
> a board, nothing to brag about, lots of pin holes, etc. The board worked
> but I wasn't impressed. Been using punched proyect board ever since.
> Tedious work that results in a single board rather then a 'template' that
> can be used over and over...

The resist on pre-sensitised boards goes off after about six months or so, 
I've found.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
leon.heller@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

> I came across this group and decided to give toner transfer another
shot.
> The Epson Paper worked great! I read about sponge etching. Picked up
some
> green film to strengthen the toner if it turns out to be necessary...

I found that while the Epson paper does indeed work very well, the
green Pulsar film doesn't stick to the toner if you transfer the toner
using Epson paper or any other paper with clay content, such as
magazine paper. (This has been mentioned in the past on this list but
I think only once, based on my searching of the messages.)

I etched my first succeful board last weekend using the Epson paper,
no green film, and the sponge technique. It took a little longer than
I expected for the board to etch, but I think that was because the
FeCl was somewhat colder than it ideally could have been.

--Adam

> I etched my first succeful board last weekend using the Epson paper,
> no green film, and the sponge technique. It took a little longer than
> I expected for the board to etch, but I think that was because the
> FeCl was somewhat colder than it ideally could have been.

Does FeCl get old? I have some FeCl that I bought a long time ago (8
years) but never opened yet.

Adi

On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 22:37:20 +0100, Adi Linden <adiy@...> wrote:

> Does FeCl get old? I have some FeCl that I bought a long time ago (8
> years) but never opened yet.
> Adi


I don't think so, after ~5 years mine was still fine (mixed up in a  
bottle, needed a shake though ;-) ).

The plastic bags of dry FeCl i have show water going through the sealed  
plastic foil, that stuff must be pretty hygroscopic.



ST

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Adi Linden" <adiy@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 9:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner transfer works...


>> I etched my first succeful board last weekend using the Epson paper,
>> no green film, and the sponge technique. It took a little longer than
>> I expected for the board to etch, but I think that was because the
>> FeCl was somewhat colder than it ideally could have been.
> 
> Does FeCl get old? I have some FeCl that I bought a long time ago (8
> years) but never opened yet.

Should be OK.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
leon.heller@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

Adi Linden <adiy@...> writes:
> Does FeCl get old? I have some FeCl that I bought a long time ago (8
> years) but never opened yet.

I had a partial bottle from about 25 years ago that I finished off
recently, seemed to work OK.

At 2:21 pm ((PST)) Thu Nov 9, 2006, Stefan Trethan wrote:

>The plastic bags of dry FeCl i have show water going through the sealed
>plastic foil, that stuff must be pretty hygroscopic.

It's worse than that, it's deliquescent.

Then it dissociates and ferric hydroxide precipitates
leaving a strongly acidic solution.

So if your container of formerly anhydrous ferric chloride
should be leaky enough to let the liquor out, or its plastic
become embrittled with age, it can leave both iron stains
and acid burns.

That's what caught out my dad when he put a plastic pot
of my (double poly-bagged) ferric chloride on a high shelf
so the label couldn't be read to see what it was, then,
much later, lifted it down by the lid - which disintegrated.

It splashes quite a long way when dropped 6 feet onto a
concrete garage floor.

Best to store that kind of stuff low down on a catch-tray or
in an additional bucket -  and still treat it gingerly.


Regards, LenW

On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 17:32:07 +0100, Len Warner <yahoo@...>  
wrote:

> It's worse than that, it's deliquescent.
> Then it dissociates and ferric hydroxide precipitates
> leaving a strongly acidic solution.
> So if your container of formerly anhydrous ferric chloride
> should be leaky enough to let the liquor out, or its plastic
> become embrittled with age, it can leave both iron stains
> and acid burns.
> That's what caught out my dad when he put a plastic pot
> of my (double poly-bagged) ferric chloride on a high shelf
> so the label couldn't be read to see what it was, then,
> much later, lifted it down by the lid - which disintegrated.
> It splashes quite a long way when dropped 6 feet onto a
> concrete garage floor.
> Best to store that kind of stuff low down on a catch-tray or
> in an additional bucket -  and still treat it gingerly.
> Regards, LenW


Thanks Len, the deliquescent delinquent will go into a secondary container  
tomorrow (The bags are in a cardboard box now).
The plastic bags seemed in good shape last time i checked up on them, but  
better not take a risk.

BTW i have the yellow granular stuff, i believe that is not anhydrous. But  
it's still taking up water.

ST

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 4:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner transfer works...



>
>
> Thanks Len, the deliquescent delinquent will go into a secondary container
> tomorrow (The bags are in a cardboard box now).
> The plastic bags seemed in good shape last time i checked up on them, but
> better not take a risk.
>
> BTW i have the yellow granular stuff, i believe that is not anhydrous. But
> it's still taking up water.

That's not anhydrous FeCl3. I had some of the anhydrous stuff many years 
ago, it's a black powder. It was some years old when I got it cheap, sealed 
in double polythene bags.

Leon

On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 19:27:47 +0100, Leon Heller  
<leon.heller@...> wrote:

>
> That's not anhydrous FeCl3. I had some of the anhydrous stuff many years
> ago, it's a black powder. It was some years old when I got it cheap,  
> sealed
> in double polythene bags.
> Leon


But what is the advantage of anhydrous ferric chloride?

ST

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 6:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner transfer works...


> On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 19:27:47 +0100, Leon Heller
> <leon.heller@...> wrote:
>
>>
>> That's not anhydrous FeCl3. I had some of the anhydrous stuff many years
>> ago, it's a black powder. It was some years old when I got it cheap,
>> sealed
>> in double polythene bags.
>> Leon
>
>
> But what is the advantage of anhydrous ferric chloride?

It takes up a lot less storage space. I think it was originally made for 
some miltary application as it had a typical UK MoD label. It was very 
cheap, from a military surplus supplier.

Leon