Homebrew PCBs

Hi guys,

Many of us make double sided boards and have to create vias from one 
side to the other. Often it's a piece of wire or a cut-off leg of a 
component.

For power routings I just realized that a header pin is great!  During 
diagnostics, testing, etc., it's always handy to have a place to clip 
on a test lead for checking voltages etc.  A header pin allows for 
that and creates the via.  Just a simple realization this morning, but 
in case you have not thought about it, there you go!

Chris

>Often it's a piece of wire or a cut-off leg of a
>component.

First option to explore would be the leg of an existing installed thru 
hole (TH) component (headers included). That's why the move from TH to 
SMD doesn't always reduce the amount of hole drilling for the 
homebrewer as drastically as some would have us believe. SMD needs more 
forced or dedicated vias.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing" 
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
>

I think he meant you can use it as a test pin, ie clip an alligator clip to
it to take measurements.

Might not be overly successful, real test pins are flared at the end to stop
the clip falling off...

Tony

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of derekhawkins
> Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 2:47 AM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Stupid- simple tip but worth it ....
> 
> >Often it's a piece of wire or a cut-off leg of a component.
> 
> First option to explore would be the leg of an existing 
> installed thru hole (TH) component (headers included). That's 
> why the move from TH to SMD doesn't always reduce the amount 
> of hole drilling for the homebrewer as drastically as some 
> would have us believe. SMD needs more forced or dedicated vias.
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing" 
> <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, 
> Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> 
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 19:26:45 +0200, Tony Smith <ajsmith@...>  
wrote:

> I think he meant you can use it as a test pin, ie clip an alligator clip  
> to
> it to take measurements.
> Might not be overly successful, real test pins are flared at the end to  
> stop
> the clip falling off...
> Tony


Who says you can not simply make test leads with header sockets?
Much better than a clip lead.

You can also buy round solder pins that are excellent for this purpose,  
with matching female connectors.


ST

> > I think he meant you can use it as a test pin, ie clip an alligator 
> > clip to it to take measurements.
> > Might not be overly successful, real test pins are flared 
> at the end 
> > to stop the clip falling off...
> > Tony
> 
> 
> Who says you can not simply make test leads with header sockets?
> Much better than a clip lead.
> 
> You can also buy round solder pins that are excellent for 
> this purpose, with matching female connectors.


Sheesh.  You can make your test pins out of barbed wire for all I care.
Just don't complain when the leads fall off after you bump it.

Tony

On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 20:11:09 +0200, Tony Smith <ajsmith@...>  
wrote:

>
> Sheesh.  You can make your test pins out of barbed wire for all I care.
> Just don't complain when the leads fall off after you bump it.
> Tony


I'll have you know in lotsa high quality lab instruments the test pins are  
normal square header pins (0.64mm).

I'm also not the one complaining, i'm the one with the soldering iron who  
can make a couple of test leads ;-)

There is even a whole lab lead system based on that connector, you can  
readily buy leads and probes and adapters and hooks and clips and... the  
whole lot in miniature just like with 4mm (and 2mm) round plugs, from  
reputable manufacturers such as hirschmann, and others. Tektronix uses  
them for example in logic analyzers. They don't seem to agree that the  
leads will just fall off if you bump them.

If you think a alligator clip is better than a matching plug/socket  
connection.. well..

To the reasonable people who might want to make such leads, use better  
quality sockets like used by berg connectors. The cheap sockets are one  
sheetmetal part, stamped and folded cleverly so that part of the shape  
forms the contact spring. Of course this is not an ideal spring, so it  
will get tired after some use. If you find a high quality connector you  
will notice a separate piece of spring material used which lasts much  
longer.

You know, if you criticise some post you should really make sure your  
facts are sound, ideally beforehand. I would save me time not having to  
defend my opinion.

ST

I often use .1" pitch Berg connectors as test points. Very convenient. I 
use a flexible wire with a Berg connector on one end (shrink tubing 
around it to prevent shorts) and bare wire on the other that I grab with 
an alligator or other clip.

In fact when I put together my M128 board from http://www.bdmicro.com I 
put headers in that are long enough that the bottom part fits in a 
breadboard and the top ones accept connectors. Sweet.

    Sander

Stefan Trethan wrote:

> On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 20:11:09 +0200, Tony Smith <ajsmith@...>  
> wrote:
>
>   
>> Sheesh.  You can make your test pins out of barbed wire for all I care.
>> Just don't complain when the leads fall off after you bump it.
>> Tony
>>     
>
>
> I'll have you know in lotsa high quality lab instruments the test pins are  
> normal square header pins (0.64mm).
>
> I'm also not the one complaining, i'm the one with the soldering iron who  
> can make a couple of test leads ;-)
>
> There is even a whole lab lead system based on that connector, you can  
> readily buy leads and probes and adapters and hooks and clips and... the  
> whole lot in miniature just like with 4mm (and 2mm) round plugs, from  
> reputable manufacturers such as hirschmann, and others. Tektronix uses  
> them for example in logic analyzers. They don't seem to agree that the  
> leads will just fall off if you bump them.
>
> If you think a alligator clip is better than a matching plug/socket  
> connection.. well..
>
> To the reasonable people who might want to make such leads, use better  
> quality sockets like used by berg connectors. The cheap sockets are one  
> sheetmetal part, stamped and folded cleverly so that part of the shape  
> forms the contact spring. Of course this is not an ideal spring, so it  
> will get tired after some use. If you find a high quality connector you  
> will notice a separate piece of spring material used which lasts much  
> longer.
>
> You know, if you criticise some post you should really make sure your  
> facts are sound, ideally beforehand. I would save me time not having to  
> defend my opinion.
>
> ST
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/ 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

>I think he meant you can use it as a test pin, ie clip an alligator 
>clip to it to take measurements.

My point was that the leads of existing installed TH components are 
potential vias and test pins. A scopes probe will probably hold better 
to a resistor lead than an upright header pin. 

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Smith" <ajsmith@...> wrote:
>

Just a simple suggestion guys - no need to get excited.   My point 
being that while you can use the leads of resistors and other 
components to make vias, sometimes you need a via where there isn't 
such a component. Normally, I just stick a piece of wire in the 
hole, solder it on both sides, clip it off and move on.

However, when measuring voltages, I like to clip (with an aligator 
clip) my VOM to the board, then probe for voltages or whatever. I 
don't normally think to add some sort of test points on my boards - 
crap, I can barely make a board! 

Thinking a bit further, even using a scope this is handy to have.  
While ground pins are handy, sometimes the positive voltage pins are 
handy too.  

I can understand the need for something better than a header pin, 
however, I always seem to have them laying around and they are a bit 
more stiff and sturdy than typical cut-off leads and such.  So, that 
was my thinking.

Chris

>I can understand the need for something better than a header pin,
>however, I always seem to have them laying around and they are a bit
>more stiff and sturdy than typical cut-off leads and such. 

Header pins make the best homebrew vias IMO. All my dedicated vias are 
clipped header pins. However, a dedicated via is always a last resort.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing" 
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
>

> > Sheesh.  You can make your test pins out of barbed wire for 
> all I care.
> > Just don't complain when the leads fall off after you bump it.
> > Tony
> 
> 
> I'll have you know in lotsa high quality lab instruments the 
> test pins are  
> normal square header pins (0.64mm).
> 
> I'm also not the one complaining, i'm the one with the 
> soldering iron who  
> can make a couple of test leads ;-)
> 
it  
> will get tired after some use. If you find a high quality 
> connector you  
> will notice a separate piece of spring material used which 
> lasts much  
> longer.
> 
> You know, if you criticise some post you should really make 
> sure your  
> facts are sound, ideally beforehand. I would save me time not 
> having to  
> defend my opinion.
> 
> ST


As I said, sheesh.

Hobbiests are cheap and use dodgy stuff which doesn't work all that well at
times.  Not exactly the newsflash of the century.

Good thing I didn't insult your mother, I'd be still reading your response.
Chill out, dude.  You're either smoking too much wacky baccy or not enough.

Tony

On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 14:40:56 +0200, Tony Smith <ajsmith@...>  
wrote:

>
> As I said, sheesh.
> Hobbiests are cheap and use dodgy stuff which doesn't work all that well  
> at
> times.  Not exactly the newsflash of the century.
> Good thing I didn't insult your mother, I'd be still reading your  
> response.
> Chill out, dude.  You're either smoking too much wacky baccy or not  
> enough.
> Tony

What are you talking about? Have you actually read my post?
I clearly established header pins as test pins are _not_ dodgy stuff,  
which is what you claim as i understand it.

If you say tektronix uses dodgy stuff, well, that's an opinion too but you  
are probably standing alone there.

I'll just ignore you from now on for apparent lack of reason. My claim  
that square test pins make fine test points was sufficiently established,  
while there isn't many arguments coming from you apart from "it'll all  
fall off".



ST

> >
> > As I said, sheesh.
> > Hobbiests are cheap and use dodgy stuff which doesn't work 
> all that well  
> > at
> > times.  Not exactly the newsflash of the century.
> > Good thing I didn't insult your mother, I'd be still reading your  
> > response.
> > Chill out, dude.  You're either smoking too much wacky 
> baccy or not  
> > enough.
> > Tony
> 
> What are you talking about? Have you actually read my post?
> I clearly established header pins as test pins are _not_ 
> dodgy stuff,  
> which is what you claim as i understand it.
> 
> If you say tektronix uses dodgy stuff, well, that's an 
> opinion too but you  
> are probably standing alone there.
> 
> I'll just ignore you from now on for apparent lack of reason. 
> My claim  
> that square test pins make fine test points was sufficiently 
> established,  
> while there isn't many arguments coming from you apart from 
> "it'll all  
> fall off".


Yeah, header pins, leaving the component lead long, works fine.  As I said,
hobbiests are cheap.  And they use the cheapest clip going, being the
alligator clip.  When you pick up the board and turn it over, half the time
they either fall off or short against something else.

Using header pins as vias can lead to solder joint failure.  Won't stop
people doing it, but at least you know there's a possibility for failure.

If you've got better stuff, go use it.  Some people don't use test pins at
all.  Some people have never seen pogo pins.  Most don't have a scope.

It's called homebrew for a reason, ghetto tech might be a better word.
Here's a good ghetto example - http://uanr.com/sdfloppy/.  Work?  Sure.
Ghetto?  Sure.  Possible problems?  Sure.  Vibration, crosstalk, all the fun
stuff.

My point was simply real test pins are a funny shape for a reason.  Why this
surprises you or why you actually care enough to respond is beyond me.

Tony

On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 19:09:15 +0200, Tony Smith <ajsmith@...>  
wrote:

>
> Yeah, header pins, leaving the component lead long, works fine.  As I  
> said,
> hobbiests are cheap.  And they use the cheapest clip going, being the
> alligator clip.  When you pick up the board and turn it over, half the  
> time
> they either fall off or short against something else.
> Using header pins as vias can lead to solder joint failure.  Won't stop
> people doing it, but at least you know there's a possibility for failure.
> If you've got better stuff, go use it.  Some people don't use test pins  
> at
> all.  Some people have never seen pogo pins.  Most don't have a scope.
> It's called homebrew for a reason, ghetto tech might be a better word.
> Here's a good ghetto example - http://uanr.com/sdfloppy/.  Work?  Sure.
> Ghetto?  Sure.  Possible problems?  Sure.  Vibration, crosstalk, all the  
> fun
> stuff.
> My point was simply real test pins are a funny shape for a reason.  Why  
> this
> surprises you or why you actually care enough to respond is beyond me.
> Tony


Ok, when i meet a Fluke or Tektronix or Siemens or Norma engineer i will  
tell them that they are doing it all wrong and square pins are not  
acceptable for test pins. I'm not sure if they will be insulted when i  
tell them they are ghetto technicians ;-).
I'll just tell them the great Tony Smith has said so, and he must know  
after all, i'm sure they'll immediately see their folly.

No many people will indeed not have seen a pogo pin, because they are  
utterly useless for anything other than series production testing. We were  
talking about test _pins_, not _pads_, you do remember that?

I care enough to respond because i can't stand it when people write  
nonsense and insist on it without giving any decent reasons, let alone  
proof.

ST

> > It's called homebrew for a reason, ghetto tech might be a 
> better word.
> > Here's a good ghetto example - http://uanr.com/sdfloppy/.  
> Work?  Sure.
> > Ghetto?  Sure.  Possible problems?  Sure.  Vibration, 
> crosstalk, all the  
> > fun
> > stuff.
> > My point was simply real test pins are a funny shape for a 
> reason.  Why  
> > this
> > surprises you or why you actually care enough to respond is 
> beyond me.
> > Tony
> 
> 
> Ok, when i meet a Fluke or Tektronix or Siemens or Norma 
> engineer i will  
> tell them that they are doing it all wrong and square pins are not  
> acceptable for test pins. I'm not sure if they will be 
> insulted when i  
> tell them they are ghetto technicians ;-).
> I'll just tell them the great Tony Smith has said so, and he 
> must know  
> after all, i'm sure they'll immediately see their folly.


Yep, while you're at it, ask them if they use alligator clips.  Or do they
use parrot clips, which tend to hang on better.

Tony

On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 20:02:59 +0200, Tony Smith <ajsmith@...>  
wrote:

>
> Yep, while you're at it, ask them if they use alligator clips.  Or do  
> they
> use parrot clips, which tend to hang on better.
> Tony


I would expect they use the _proper_ _matching_ _receptacle_ which anyone  
can easily do with little or no cost, certainly less than an alligator  
clip.

ST

> > Yep, while you're at it, ask them if they use alligator 
> clips.  Or do  
> > they
> > use parrot clips, which tend to hang on better.
> > Tony
> 
> 
> I would expect they use the _proper_ _matching_ _receptacle_ 
> which anyone  
> can easily do with little or no cost, certainly less than an 
> alligator  
> clip.
> 
> ST


Sigh.

And my original comment was alligator clips tend to fall off striaght pins.

Look folks, round and round it goes, where it stops only ST knows.

Tony

On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 21:21:47 +0200, Tony Smith <ajsmith@...>  
wrote:

> Sigh.
> And my original comment was alligator clips tend to fall off striaght  
> pins.
> Look folks, round and round it goes, where it stops only ST knows.
> Tony


Any my response to that was that alligator clips are the wrong tool to go  
about the job, and that suitable sockets should be used, which reply you  
attacked by saying they'll fall off as well.
You know this is email, it is easy to go back and look what someone said,  
so don't try to turn around the facts:

Tony:

> > > I think he meant you can use it as a test pin, ie clip an alligator>  
> > clip to it to take measurements.
> > > Might not be overly successful, real test pins are flared> > at the  
> end> > to stop the clip falling off...
> > > Tony

ST:

> > Who says you can not simply make test leads with header sockets?
> > Much better than a clip lead.
> > You can also buy round solder pins that are excellent for> this  
> purpose, with matching female connectors.

Tony:

> Sheesh.  You can make your test pins out of barbed wire for all I care.
> Just don't complain when the leads fall off after you bump it.
> Tony


My point was, and is, that square header pins are excellent test pins,  
especially if you use the proper (free to build, cheap to buy) test lead  
to probe them (with a 0.64mm socket on the end). Examples of very  
reputable manufacturers show they they too believe square pins are  
suitable test pins. You subsequently claimed use of square pins means poor  
homebrew quality (remember: ghetto tech).

If you would just believe that square header pins are accepted industry  
standard for test pins, and not a botch job, and that alligator clips are  
simply not the most suitable tools to use on them, then i wouldn't have to  
repeat myself all the time.


ST

> > Sigh.
> > And my original comment was alligator clips tend to fall 
> off striaght 
> > pins.
> > Look folks, round and round it goes, where it stops only ST knows.
> > Tony
> 
> 
> Any my response to that was that alligator clips are the 
> wrong tool to go  
> about the job, and that suitable sockets should be used, 
> which reply you  
> attacked by saying they'll fall off as well.
> You know this is email, it is easy to go back and look what 
> someone said,  
> so don't try to turn around the facts:
> 
> Tony:
> 
> > > > I think he meant you can use it as a test pin, ie clip 
> an alligator>  
> > > clip to it to take measurements.
> > > > Might not be overly successful, real test pins are 
> flared> > at the  
> > end> > to stop the clip falling off...
> > > > Tony
> 
> ST:
> 
> > > Who says you can not simply make test leads with header sockets?
> > > Much better than a clip lead.
> > > You can also buy round solder pins that are excellent for> this  
> > purpose, with matching female connectors.
> 
> Tony:
> 
> > Sheesh.  You can make your test pins out of barbed wire for 
> all I care.
> > Just don't complain when the leads fall off after you bump it.
> > Tony
> 
> 
> My point was, and is, that square header pins are excellent 
> test pins,  
> especially if you use the proper (free to build, cheap to 
> buy) test lead  
> to probe them (with a 0.64mm socket on the end). Examples of very  
> reputable manufacturers show they they too believe square pins are  
> suitable test pins. You subsequently claimed use of square 
> pins means poor  
> homebrew quality (remember: ghetto tech).
> 
> If you would just believe that square header pins are 
> accepted industry  
> standard for test pins, and not a botch job, and that 
> alligator clips are  
> simply not the most suitable tools to use on them, then i 
> wouldn't have to  
> repeat myself all the time.


Must be a peculiar property of the internet where two people who agree on
something can go around and around and around and around and bore the rest
of the world shitless.  Or decides that Poland needs invading or something.

Once more, slowly, with picture.  In colour too!

Exhibit One:
http://www.jaycar.com.au/products_uploaded/productLarge_5515.jpg.  Look
children, a component.  If you have a double sided boards, and you solder
both sides of a lead, you can made a via.  If you don't cut the lead short,
you can use it as a test pin.

Exhibit Two:
http://www.jaycar.com.au/products_uploaded/productLarge_1183.jpg.  An
alligator clip, so called because it looks like the jaws of one.  Ain't that
cool?  You can uses these to connect to your test pins.  Sweet!

Exhibit Three & Four:
http://www.jaycar.com.au/products_uploaded/productLarge_1487.jpg,
http://www.jaycar.com.au/products_uploaded/productLarge_7558.jpg.  Don't
like using component leads?  A bit too ghetto?  Bit flimsy for you?  Well,
try these!

Exhibit Five: http://www.bbc.co.uk/parenting/images/300/bw_crying_girl.jpg.
This is you after you clip an alligator lead to exhibit one, three or four
and it goes wrong.  The smoke really gets in your eyes after it leans over
and shorts something out, and having to clip the damn things back on all the
time gets annoying.  Thank $deity for teddy, he understands.  (Yeah, black
and white.  Sorry!)

Exhibit Six:
http://www.jaycar.com.au/products_uploaded/productLarge_1189.jpg.  Or you
could use these.  Don't need no stinking test pins, you can hook then
direcly to the leg of an IC if need be.  Won't short and won't fall off.
Yay!

Yes, alligator clips suck.  Yes, there are better things.  Gosh, that's what
I said, wasn't it?  Alligator clips fall of pins?  Which is why the message
is titled 'stupid simple tip', not 'this is the way you are supposed to did
it like all the research labs and manufacturers and people with letters
after their names do'.  Yeah, and they get cheap sometimes too.

No doubt ST will respond with a carefully constructed response that says
exactly the same thing as this one, advancing the field of Homebrew PCBs
exactly nowhere.  Imagine what would happen if it was something important.
Meantime, I'll go and do something more interesting, like watching the grass
grow.  (hmm, needs mowing.)

Far out, brussel sprout.  I'll have what you're smoking.

Tony

(Yeah, I've too much free time)

On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 19:05:20 +0200, Tony Smith <ajsmith@...>  
wrote:

>  Or decides that Poland needs invading or something.


Ha! that sounds to me damn close to someone invoking Godwin's Law! :-)


Look, i don't care if you admit you were wrong or if you claim i  
misunderstood you, as long as you agree square header pins can very well  
make decent test pins everything is fine with me.


ST

Well, seeing as I started this whole mess, it's time again for me to 
voice some comments and opinions...

Aligator (or some folks call them crocidile) clips are just fine and 
dandy for me.  They are what I can purchase, I know how to use them 
(even for purposes that are frowned upon).  I use the type with the 
insulation on them.  Yes, they pop off at times, yes I know that, so 
I deal with it.  If I had other types of clips on hand, I would 
probably have them too.

I have seen square pins used for "test points" on a variety of PCBs, 
at least that is what I think they are for.  Usually it's just a 
square pin poking up through the PCB - sometimes with a marking, 
sometimes not.  I figured if others use it for what I believe to be 
test pins, AND by combining it's function to that of a via, you get 
two "Features" out of one device.  

I have also seen other things used for test points, I don't know 
what they are called, but they are round and have a head on it - 
sort of looks like a nail.  I can see the benefit to those, but 
don't have them on hand, nor do I intentionally purchase them - 
don't know what they are called (Posts ?).

Otherwise, how is everyone doing with their ink jet systems?

Chris

> 
> >  Or decides that Poland needs invading or something.
> 
> Ha! that sounds to me damn close to someone invoking Godwin's Law! :-)
> 
> Look, i don't care if you admit you were wrong or if you 
> claim i misunderstood you, as long as you agree square header 
> pins can very well make decent test pins everything is fine with me.
> 
> ST


Well, back from watching the grass grow.  Very exciting.  Still need mowing.
Why can grass shrink when it rains?  More exciting than this thread anyway.
Yeah, round pin, square pin, component leg, triangular pin, one made from
barb wire, an (now, pay attention) alligator clip will short out or fall off
them all eventually.  Big deal.

As I said, nothing to go off and invade Poland for.

That's why I use the hook type clips.  Downside is they cost more, and only
seem to come in red & black.  If you have a different clip that just happens
to work superbly on a square pin, well, ain't that great.  I'll bake you a
cake in the shape of it.  Or Poland.

Tony

On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 21:04:22 +0200, Tony Smith <ajsmith@...>  
wrote:

>
> Well, back from watching the grass grow.  Very exciting.  Still need  
> mowing.
> Why can grass shrink when it rains?  More exciting than this thread  
> anyway.
> Yeah, round pin, square pin, component leg, triangular pin, one made from
> barb wire, an (now, pay attention) alligator clip will short out or fall  
> off
> them all eventually.  Big deal.
> As I said, nothing to go off and invade Poland for.
> That's why I use the hook type clips.  Downside is they cost more, and  
> only
> seem to come in red & black.  If you have a different clip that just  
> happens
> to work superbly on a square pin, well, ain't that great.  I'll bake you  
> a
> cake in the shape of it.  Or Poland.
> Tony

I'll not try any more, you seem incapable of processing what i say and you  
just repeat the same thing over and over, so it's really no fun. You may  
want to discuss this obsession about invading Poland with your consultant  
though. ;-)

ST

> > only
> > seem to come in red & black.  If you have a different clip 
> that just  
> > happens
> > to work superbly on a square pin, well, ain't that great.  
> I'll bake you  
> > a
> > cake in the shape of it.  Or Poland.
> > Tony
> 
> I'll not try any more, you seem incapable of processing what 
> i say and you  
> just repeat the same thing over and over, so it's really no 
> fun. You may  
> want to discuss this obsession about invading Poland with 
> your consultant  
> though. ;-)
> 
> ST


Alligator clips tend to suck.  What's hard about that?

Tony

Let's drop this.

End of line.

Steve Greenfield
Listowner