Homebrew PCBs

The program database on this group is a bit small. Name yours, and why
you considre it better than average.

Hi all,

I prefer Target3001! Because of the following:

It has an extensive part  catalog that is uptaded through the net.

Parts, drilling sizes, pads, etc. can be modified after placed in the PCB.

The price is right and board size is not limited. you can get a decent
version for 42EUR and a very large one for 470 EUR. There is a tiny
version for free.

Support is good, they will incorporate new parts for free if you ask them to.

It has cut and paste capabilities in Windows, manual drilling plans
for smaller projects, and a nice user manual in PDf format.

I found it at:

http://www.ibfriedrich.com

Hugo

On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 00:23:11 +0200, Hugo Gonz\ufffdlez Monteverde  
<hugonz@...> wrote:

> Hi all,
> I prefer Target3001! Because of the following:
> It has an extensive part  catalog that is uptaded through the net.
> Parts, drilling sizes, pads, etc. can be modified after placed in the  
> PCB.
> The price is right and board size is not limited. you can get a decent
> version for 42EUR and a very large one for 470 EUR. There is a tiny
> version for free.
> Support is good, they will incorporate new parts for free if you ask  
> them to.
> It has cut and paste capabilities in Windows, manual drilling plans
> for smaller projects, and a nice user manual in PDf format.
> I found it at:
> http://www.ibfriedrich.com
> Hugo


Hi,

nice to find another user of Target.
Do you have V12?

BTW: one gets 10% rebate on target for "word of mouth" recommendation (a  
post in a forum suffices).
So if you plan to buy it, get the freeware first for a while so you can  
honestly recommend it, and make that post.
There are also regular special offers 3 or 4 times a year, the next one  
will probably be at christmas, the last special offer was last month. So  
if you wait for that you'll get 30% off ;-)

It certainly has a couple of weak points compared to say orcad, but it's  
good value for money.

Hugo, do the web-update libraries really work? I find i need to make my  
own libraries to get proper pad sizes etc.

Do you use simulation? I have a lot of trouble with that...

ST

Eagle Layout Editor from Cadsoft all the way.  Even though they could probably update thier parts library more often there are plenty of parts libraries available from other users or you could always make your own.  The software is also fairly easy to use, though some of the hotkeys are a little odd and take a little getting used to.  On top of that Eagle is available for Windows, Mac OS, and Linux.

  I've also found that the board size limit of the free version only applies to the populated area.  So really you can make the board as big as you want but your circuit can only take up a 100X80mm area.  What I've done is go in the board layout editor and just add pads at .1" spacings across the rest of the board (which it will let you do) effectively creating a prototying board with my main circuit etched up in one corner.  Great for tinkering since you could easily do things like have a microprocessor controlled interface circuit or a power supply etched and then have the rest of the board to prototype on.

Even if you went to a paid version the prices aren't too bad.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: jdizzlemynizzal 
  To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 10:30 AM
  Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] What is your favorite free PCB-CAD Designer


  The program database on this group is a bit small. Name yours, and why
  you considre it better than average.



   


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>I've also found that the board size limit of the free version only 
>applies to the populated area. So really you can make the board as 
>big as you want but your circuit can only take up a 100X80mm area. 

Glad Eagle took this approach since it means one can use the program 
for machine work without any limitations. Holes are not considered 
circuit elements so any size drill templates for manual or CNC 
drilling can be created. I'm CNC drilling the base of an aluminium 
chassis below using Eagle CAD/CAM files;  

http://www.pbase.com/eldata/image/46673176


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, <william.kroyer@...> wrote:
>

PCB Wizard from New Wave Concepts. The library is a bit weak but the
UI is so friendly that its a snap to make a new library component.

PCB Wizard is the only PCB-CAD program I have ever seen that at all
adheres to Microsoft interface standards. The UI navigation skills you
have from MS Word, Excel, Visio etc., etc, etc. will transfer to this
program. It is obvious how to do most things if you use any sort of
common PC program.

To be sure, it is a hobbiest grade tool. No one would ever be able to
make a PC motherboard with it. But I find the UI more than makes ups
for all of its short comings. I have to re-learn Eagle *every time*
becuase I don't use it enough to remember the click patterns to
activate functions. The click patterns don't make enough sense to me
to do any thing but wrote memorization of them.

I don't know for a fact, but it sure feels like most PCB-CAD programs
are trying to adhere to some UI standard that dates back to DOS or
even eariler. I find them quite alien.

With PCB Wizard I can just sit down, work, and work quickly. I don't
have to fight it.



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@...m, "jdizzlemynizzal"
<jdizzlemynizzal@...> wrote:

>
> The program database on this group is a bit small. Name yours, and why
> you considre it better than average.
>

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "roycepipkins" <royce.pipkins@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 6:15 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: What is your favorite free PCB-CAD Designer


> PCB Wizard from New Wave Concepts. The library is a bit weak but the
> UI is so friendly that its a snap to make a new library component.
>
> PCB Wizard is the only PCB-CAD program I have ever seen that at all
> adheres to Microsoft interface standards. The UI navigation skills you
> have from MS Word, Excel, Visio etc., etc, etc. will transfer to this
> program. It is obvious how to do most things if you use any sort of
> common PC program.

One of the reasons why Pulsonix is so eay to use is that it conforms to the 
MS standards. I often cut and paste from other applications into Pulsonix, 
it saves a lot of time when creating parts as the pin names don't have to be 
typed in.

Leon

I just installed Diptrace and it was very easy to get started. Without 
reading the manual or tutorial I was able to construct an easy circuit. 
I then followed the tutorial and learned how things really worked :) The 
interface isn't quite MS standard but it's pretty close. Certainly a lot 
more intuitive than Eagle which I used in the past.

I looked at PCB Wizard but couldn't find pricing. I probably didn't look 
hard enough but I expect that crucial bit of info readily available. 
Since the free demo is severely crippled I doubt there is a functional 
free version available. Pulsonix is so horrendously expensive I doubt 
any hobbyist would buy it for home use. It certainly isn't free like the 
original poster asked about.

I also downloaded and installed Kicad. Looks nice but there were some 
drawing issues when you move components. Because Kicad lacks an 
autorouter I'm sticking with Diptrace for now.

    Sander

Leon Heller wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "roycepipkins" <royce.pipkins@... 
> <mailto:royce.pipkins%40gmail.com>>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 6:15 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: What is your favorite free PCB-CAD Designer
>
> > PCB Wizard from New Wave Concepts. The library is a bit weak but the
> > UI is so friendly that its a snap to make a new library component.
> >
> > PCB Wizard is the only PCB-CAD program I have ever seen that at all
> > adheres to Microsoft interface standards. The UI navigation skills you
> > have from MS Word, Excel, Visio etc., etc, etc. will transfer to this
> > program. It is obvious how to do most things if you use any sort of
> > common PC program.
>
> One of the reasons why Pulsonix is so eay to use is that it conforms 
> to the
> MS standards. I often cut and paste from other applications into 
> Pulsonix,
> it saves a lot of time when creating parts as the pin names don't have 
> to be
> typed in.
>
> Leon
>
>

On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 19:15:13 +0200, roycepipkins <royce.pipkins@...>  
wrote:

>
> I don't know for a fact, but it sure feels like most PCB-CAD programs
> are trying to adhere to some UI standard that dates back to DOS or
> even eariler. I find them quite alien.


Some do, like eagle, that's why i didn't get on with it.

ST

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Sander Pool" <sander@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 8:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: What is your favorite free PCB-CAD Designer


>
> I just installed Diptrace and it was very easy to get started. Without
> reading the manual or tutorial I was able to construct an easy circuit.
> I then followed the tutorial and learned how things really worked :) The
> interface isn't quite MS standard but it's pretty close. Certainly a lot
> more intuitive than Eagle which I used in the past.
>
> I looked at PCB Wizard but couldn't find pricing. I probably didn't look
> hard enough but I expect that crucial bit of info readily available.
> Since the free demo is severely crippled I doubt there is a functional
> free version available. Pulsonix is so horrendously expensive I doubt
> any hobbyist would buy it for home use. It certainly isn't free like the
> original poster asked about.
>
> I also downloaded and installed Kicad. Looks nice but there were some
> drawing issues when you move components. Because Kicad lacks an
> autorouter I'm sticking with Diptrace for now.

Easy-PC is about the same price as Eagle but is much easier to use. It is 
also fully Windows-based.

Leon

I'll give a second vote for Diptrace. I had suffered through the learnng
curve on EAGLE for over 3 years and reached the point I could make EAGLE do
what I needed.

It took about 2 hours of playing with Diptrace to decide to trash EAGLE and
move over to Diptrace. The learning curve is that much shorter. Creating
parts and libraries  is a breeze. The help and response from the Diptrace
Team in Yahoo groups is phenomenal.

The free version  is not limited to board size, but rather limited to 250
pins. There are a lot of pricing options, including a discounted advanced
version for non commercial home users.

For anyone suffering through the EAGLE learning curve, give Diptrace a try.

Myc



On 9/6/06, Leon Heller <leon.heller@...> wrote:
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sander Pool" <sander@... <sander%40tungstentech.com>>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 8:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: What is your favorite free PCB-CAD
> Designer
>
> >
> > I just installed Diptrace and it was very easy to get started. Without
> > reading the manual or tutorial I was able to construct an easy circuit.
> > I then followed the tutorial and learned how things really worked :) The
> > interface isn't quite MS standard but it's pretty close. Certainly a lot
> > more intuitive than Eagle which I used in the past.
> >
> > I looked at PCB Wizard but couldn't find pricing. I probably didn't look
> > hard enough but I expect that crucial bit of info readily available.
> > Since the free demo is severely crippled I doubt there is a functional
> > free version available. Pulsonix is so horrendously expensive I doubt
> > any hobbyist would buy it for home use. It certainly isn't free like the
> > original poster asked about.
> >
> > I also downloaded and installed Kicad. Looks nice but there were some
> > drawing issues when you move components. Because Kicad lacks an
> > autorouter I'm sticking with Diptrace for now.
>
> Easy-PC is about the same price as Eagle but is much easier to use. It is
> also fully Windows-based.
>
> Leon
>
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi

I use kicad a while ago

http://www.lis.inpg.fr/realise_au_lis/kicad/

It can show a 3D view of PCB with components. And, you can make new 3d
Components using Wings 3D.

Runs on Linux or Windows and, best of all: It's GPL

Regards
-- 
Hector
--
El Pic no pudo Iniciar correctamente.
Inserte el disco de arranque y presione cualquier pin para continuar...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I love diptrace, I did this with it....

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/tinabriddon/bday/

Lez

>> Royce P wrote:
>> I don't know for a fact, but it sure feels
>> like most PCB-CAD programs are trying to
>> adhere to some UI standard that dates back
>> to DOS or even eariler. I find them quite
>> alien.
 
> ST wrote:
> Some do, like eagle, that's why i didn't get
> on with it.

I use autotrax (protel now free one - not the
new thing called autotrax) and it dates back
to DOS itself.

I LOVE the weird alien keystrokes and have been
holding off getting new windows based SW
becuase they all do weird things like CTRL+C
for copy.  Its just not as natural as
B-D-B-C-Y.

But then again - I thought WordStar editing
keys where very useable.

CTRL+K-B, CTRL+K-K, CTRL+K-C

And word perfect 5.1 for DOS.  It makes
perfect sense to press SHIFT+F7-1 when you want
to print.

But seriously guys - the UI is pretty unimportant
isn't it ?  It's like saying a honda CB250 is a
better family car than a volvo becuase it comes
in red.

Isn't what the PCB SW does and doesn't do more
important than the colour of the paint job ?

Nicely done!

Myc

On 9/6/06, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:
>
>   I love diptrace, I did this with it....
>
> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/tinabriddon/bday/
>
> Lez
>  
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Thu, 07 Sep 2006 00:03:01 +0200, Andrew <andrewm1973@...> wrote:

>
> But seriously guys - the UI is pretty unimportant
> isn't it ?  It's like saying a honda CB250 is a
> better family car than a volvo becuase it comes
> in red.
> Isn't what the PCB SW does and doesn't do more
> important than the colour of the paint job ?


You are comparing apples to rubber ducks here.

The paint job would be the appearance of the software, not the UI.

If i get in a car, i expect the gas to be right, the brake to be in the  
center, and the clutch to be left. I expect the car will go right if i  
turn the steering wheel clockwise.
With some programs (like eagle), i feel like the handbrake is used for  
steering while the steering wheel somehow seems to adjust the rear view  
mirror. Obviously it is much easier if all the controls do the usual  
things ;-)

You _can_ drive a bicycle with your arms crossed, but it you will probably  
crash quite a few times before you get the hang of it. You'll need to go  
quite slowly for quite some time or you'll break bones for sure.
If you have never driven a bicycle (or used any windows software) it is  
probably not much harder to learn to drive with crossed arms than with  
straight arms (anyone with young children care to experiment ;-). If you  
are however used to normal bike riding (and normal windows software)  
strange UIs are just wasting my time and making it unnecessarily hard. Why  
should i have to learn a complicated UI when they can just stick to  
standards and drastically reduce my efforts?

Anyway, you may love these funny UIs, most people probably don't because  
they just want to get on with the job.

ST

I never thought to use Eagle for metal work but that's a great idea.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: derekhawkins 
  To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 12:35 PM
  Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: What is your favorite free PCB-CAD Designer


  >I've also found that the board size limit of the free version only 
  >applies to the populated area. So really you can make the board as 
  >big as you want but your circuit can only take up a 100X80mm area. 

  Glad Eagle took this approach since it means one can use the program 
  for machine work without any limitations. Holes are not considered 
  circuit elements so any size drill templates for manual or CNC 
  drilling can be created. I'm CNC drilling the base of an aluminium 
  chassis below using Eagle CAD/CAM files; 

  http://www.pbase.com/eldata/image/46673176

  --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, <william.kroyer@...> wrote:
  >



   


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Andrew wrote:
> I use autotrax (protel now free one - not the
> new thing called autotrax) and it dates back
> to DOS itself.

Oh, I love Autotrax. It's just a bit on the outdated side, but still perfectly 
usable. I've been running it inside a patched copy of DOSBox (the CVS 
version). My version has "pause on focus loss", i.e. if the window doesn't 
have input focus then the simulation pauses. This sends DOSBox's CPU usage 
plummeting to near zero while you're scanning through your design notes.

What I'd REALLY like to get my mitts on is a copy of the old OrCAD SDT DOS CAD 
package. One of my friends had a copy and showed me the basics, but I've not 
been able to track down a copy of my own yet :(

> I LOVE the weird alien keystrokes and have been
> holding off getting new windows based SW
> becuase they all do weird things like CTRL+C
> for copy.  Its just not as natural as
> B-D-B-C-Y.

Block-Define, Block-Copy, Yes

> But then again - I thought WordStar editing
> keys where very useable.

Try Vim :)

INS The quick brown fox ESC :wmyfile.txt<CR> V <cursor left 3x> Y <cursor 
right 3x> P :wq

It's convoluted, but it's fun!

> But seriously guys - the UI is pretty unimportant
> isn't it ?  It's like saying a honda CB250 is a
> better family car than a volvo becuase it comes
> in red.

That's true to a certain degree. EAGLE, Autotrax and SDT are nice because 
they're logical. Everything has a reason for being, and you can sort of plan 
out how you're going to do something. EAGLE follows enough of the Windows UI 
styles to be easy to use, and also has the command line for when you really 
don't want to move your hand off the mouse.

The free version of Seetrax Ranger 2 for Windows is - hands down - the single 
worst CAD app I've ever used. The whole "libraries have numeric IDs" is 
incredibly annoying, as is the lack of scroll bars or any easy way to move 
around the page, short of move-mouse, hit space, pray. No thanks...

But I will take a look at KiCAD. That looks nice, although the lack of an 
autorouter might be a bit bothersome.

Thanks.
-- 
Phil.                         | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G ViewFinder
philpem@...         | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G
http://www.philpem.me.uk/     | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G

My favorite freebie is proprietary from one of the U.S. board houses. 
ExpressPCB.com  (Not PCBExpress .. different company.)

It will print 1:1 =non-watermarked= printouts of any layer .. or combinations 
of layers. There are a few caveats, however. It also will export a 1:1 DXF 
file of the layout (layers selectable) .. pads and/or text only, no
holes/hole 
centers or traces. It will also export a BMP of the design (all layers), at 
selectible resolution, which can, I guess, be used for documentation.

The accurate 1:1 scaling only holds true as long as one doesn't 'crowd' the
page. 
The program scales the entire layout window to fit the page. If it figures 
there's too much to print 1:1 on your chosen paper size it will shrink-to
-fit. But, at least it it doesn't automatically -enlarge- a sparse window
to fit a 
page. As long as one doesn't have too much laying about the layout area
outside 
the designated board area (extra copies of parts, pads, etc.), and/or your
paper 
size is adequate, it will print at an accurate 1:1, and all should be well.
May 
take a bit of fiddling to discover what the boundaries actually are for
whatever 
you want to do, tho. None of the documentation tells you the parameters (of 
course).

The scaling can neither turned off, nor set by the user (except as noted
above), nor can a selected area of the layout window be chosen for printout 
.. it's all or nothing. Every part, trace, etc., the program sees in the
window,
inside or outside the board-layout area, will be printed. But, I figure
that's 
a fair tradoff, in a free proprietary program, to be rid of the grid-pattern 
'watermark' this program used to print along with the traces.

Matter of fact, I've only very recently discovered they'd changed the
program. A friend needed some jiffy-quick commercial-quality PCB's (which
I can't accomplish myself, quickly or not), so, I figured I'd download the
latest 
version of the ExpressPCB program and then order the boards from them.
Which I 
did. And the boards are as nice as one would expect. Beautiful. And now I
know the
program is useful for my own home-brew boards, too. Which are usually pretty
simple.

As I said at the beginning, the program is very proprietary. It saves in their
proprietary (as far as I know) .PCB format. The only file needed to have them
make boards. It won't export Gerber or any other useful-to-other-vendor
files. 
It also now has a somewhat rudimentary schematic-capture module, too, which 
saves files as .SCH, but I didn't use it very long, so I don't know more about
it. I laid out the PCB's manually, which wasn't difficult at all. Quite fun, 
in fact. 

I haven't used this program for years because of the watermark grid it used 
to print. Though I'm not sure why they 'turned it off', I'm grateful.
At least I ordered a few boards to pay for it a bit. :)

BTW: The ExpressPCB website gives their address as Santa Barbara, Calif.,
just south of where I live .. however, the boards were made in (or at
least shipped from) Mulino, Oregon. 

Ron Yost .. NO 'connection' with ExpressPCB at ALL.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 11:03 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: What is your favorite free PCB-CAD Designer


>>> Royce P wrote:
>>> I don't know for a fact, but it sure feels
>>> like most PCB-CAD programs are trying to
>>> adhere to some UI standard that dates back
>>> to DOS or even eariler. I find them quite
>>> alien.
>
>> ST wrote:
>> Some do, like eagle, that's why i didn't get
>> on with it.
>
> I use autotrax (protel now free one - not the
> new thing called autotrax) and it dates back
> to DOS itself.
>
> I LOVE the weird alien keystrokes and have been
> holding off getting new windows based SW
> becuase they all do weird things like CTRL+C
> for copy.  Its just not as natural as
> B-D-B-C-Y.
>
> But then again - I thought WordStar editing
> keys where very useable.
>
> CTRL+K-B, CTRL+K-K, CTRL+K-C
>
> And word perfect 5.1 for DOS.  It makes
> perfect sense to press SHIFT+F7-1 when you want
> to print.
>
> But seriously guys - the UI is pretty unimportant
> isn't it ?  It's like saying a honda CB250 is a
> better family car than a volvo becuase it comes
> in red.
>
> Isn't what the PCB SW does and doesn't do more
> important than the colour of the paint job ?

How would you like to drive a car that had the brake and clutch pedal 
positions swapped?

Leon

On Thu, 07 Sep 2006 00:46:58 +0200, <william.kroyer@...>  
wrote:

> I never thought to use Eagle for metal work but that's a great idea.


I also use target for everything that needs cad drawing. It has front  
panel/milling functions built-in so it's meant for that, but i use it for  
lots of other things. Of course it's not the ideal software for many of  
these things i use it for, but i have it already and know well how to use  
it, so i'm probably still faster than trying to use any other CAD software  
like pro engineer.
And that signal length measuring feature is damn useful too if you want to  
make underfloor heating plans where the pipe runs must have a specific  
length each ;-)

I'll have to make a few analog meter scales soon, previously i made that  
in paint shop pro, but i'll try in target this time. It has functions for  
scales with linear spacing, but i'm not sure how the nonlinear ones will  
work, i guess i'll scan the pencil-marked scale again and somehow work  
over that.

ST

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 9:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: What is your favorite free PCB-CAD Designer


> On Thu, 07 Sep 2006 00:46:58 +0200, <william.kroyer@...>
> wrote:
>
>> I never thought to use Eagle for metal work but that's a great idea.
>
>
> I also use target for everything that needs cad drawing. It has front
> panel/milling functions built-in so it's meant for that, but i use it for
> lots of other things. Of course it's not the ideal software for many of
> these things i use it for, but i have it already and know well how to use
> it, so i'm probably still faster than trying to use any other CAD software
> like pro engineer.
> And that signal length measuring feature is damn useful too if you want to
> make underfloor heating plans where the pipe runs must have a specific
> length each ;-)
>
> I'll have to make a few analog meter scales soon, previously i made that
> in paint shop pro, but i'll try in target this time. It has functions for
> scales with linear spacing, but i'm not sure how the nonlinear ones will
> work, i guess i'll scan the pencil-marked scale again and somehow work
> over that.

Could you calculate the non-linear scale positions, if you know the 
function?

Leon

> > Andrew M Wrote:
> >
> > But seriously guys - the UI is pretty unimportant
> > isn't it ?  It's like saying a honda CB250 is a
> > better family car than a volvo becuase it comes
> > in red.
> >
> > Isn't what the PCB SW does and doesn't do more
> > important than the colour of the paint job ?
>
> LeonH wrote:
> 
> How would you like to drive a car that had the
> brake and clutch pedal positions swapped?

It would suck a LOT for the first few hours.

And I would not do it on public roads till I was
used to it.

But if having the clutch and brake the other
way around meant I could get 2 liters / 1000 km,
200,000 Km service intervals and it had a post
mix bundy and cola machine within reach of the
drivers seat - I would be there.

I have ridden motorbikes with the controls
reversed and never been spooked by it too much.
Anyone that would have problems with trivial
details like that should probably reconsider
a career in a childhood daycare center.

This is not a dig a anyone, I respect Leon and
his opinions a lot.  I also would probably love
Pulsonix.  But I am looking at spending less
than 10K on software, preferably less than 5K.

If I can get something that is good in all other
respects - but has a weird UI - I will be smiling.

On Thu, 07 Sep 2006 10:44:28 +0200, Leon Heller  
<leon.heller@...> wrote:

>
> Could you calculate the non-linear scale positions, if you know the
> function?
> Leon


If i put effort into it, maybe.
Still seems easier to calibrate it and make pencil marks.

For some meters (e.g. moving iron meters) that have a nonlinear response  
it would be alomst impossible to calculate, but luckily you have a scale  
there already and i only need to change the numbers.


ST

I used to work with EdWIN ver 6.?? but was rather disappointed when the 2000 or XP came out with new functions ... I'd love to lay my hands on the good old Edwin. Check with the Swedish distributor and see if I can shake loose an oldie.

I use S-plan today and I am not happy with that kind of programs. You make your schematics in one program and then you have to swap to the layout program called S-print and redo everything. I haven't found any import/export function.

/Magnus

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: roycepipkins 
  To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 7:15 PM
  Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: What is your favorite free PCB-CAD Designer


  PCB Wizard from New Wave Concepts. The library is a bit weak but the
  UI is so friendly that its a snap to make a new library component.

  PCB Wizard is the only PCB-CAD program I have ever seen that at all
  adheres to Microsoft interface standards. The UI navigation skills you
  have from MS Word, Excel, Visio etc., etc, etc. will transfer to this
  program. It is obvious how to do most things if you use any sort of
  common PC program.

  To be sure, it is a hobbiest grade tool. No one would ever be able to
  make a PC motherboard with it. But I find the UI more than makes ups
  for all of its short comings. I have to re-learn Eagle *every time*
  becuase I don't use it enough to remember the click patterns to
  activate functions. The click patterns don't make enough sense to me
  to do any thing but wrote memorization of them.

  I don't know for a fact, but it sure feels like most PCB-CAD programs
  are trying to adhere to some UI standard that dates back to DOS or
  even eariler. I find them quite alien.

  With PCB Wizard I can just sit down, work, and work quickly. I don't
  have to fight it.

  --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "jdizzlemynizzal"
  <jdizzlemynizzal@...> wrote:
  >
  > The program database on this group is a bit small. Name yours, and why
  > you considre it better than average.
  >



   

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I am about to ship a drawing of a chassis for a tube amp to a guy who has a router. The design is made in FrontPanelDesigner (www.shaeffer-ag.de)

/M

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: derekhawkins 
  To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 6:35 PM
  Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: What is your favorite free PCB-CAD Designer


  >I've also found that the board size limit of the free version only 
  >applies to the populated area. So really you can make the board as 
  >big as you want but your circuit can only take up a 100X80mm area. 

  Glad Eagle took this approach since it means one can use the program 
  for machine work without any limitations. Holes are not considered 
  circuit elements so any size drill templates for manual or CNC 
  drilling can be created. I'm CNC drilling the base of an aluminium 
  chassis below using Eagle CAD/CAM files; 

  http://www.pbase.com/eldata/image/46673176

  --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, <william.kroyer@...> wrote:
  >



   

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Thu, 07 Sep 2006 10:50:50 +0200, Andrew <andrewm1973@...> wrote:

> I am looking at spending less
> than 10K on software, preferably less than 5K.
> If I can get something that is good in all other
> respects - but has a weird UI - I will be smiling.

The danger is if the UI is crap the programmer has messed it up, and he  
has probably messed up lotsa other things too.
Or it is some old thing carried over from DOS times that doesn't really  
interest me much if i'm going to buy new software.

I really don't think it's a price issue. You can find good and bad UIs in  
any price range.

The thing to do is try out all programs that you think may be an option  
for you, including those with bad UI if you don't mind that.

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...> 
wrote:
>
> > > Andrew M Wrote:
> > >
> > > But seriously guys - the UI is pretty unimportant
> > > isn't it ?  It's like saying a honda CB250 is a
> > > better family car than a volvo becuase it comes
> > > in red.
> > >
> > > Isn't what the PCB SW does and doesn't do more
> > > important than the colour of the paint job ?
> >
> > LeonH wrote:
> > 
> > How would you like to drive a car that had the
> > brake and clutch pedal positions swapped?
> 
> It would suck a LOT for the first few hours.
> 
> And I would not do it on public roads till I was
> used to it.
> 
> But if having the clutch and brake the other
> way around meant I could get 2 liters / 1000 km,
> 200,000 Km service intervals and it had a post
> mix bundy and cola machine within reach of the
> drivers seat - I would be there.
> 
> I have ridden motorbikes with the controls
> reversed and never been spooked by it too much.
> Anyone that would have problems with trivial
> details like that should probably reconsider
> a career in a childhood daycare center.

The real problem is that in an emergency one tends to revert to the 
most familiar configuration, not usually relevant with software but 
potentially disastrous in a car or on a motorbike.

> 
> This is not a dig a anyone, I respect Leon and
> his opinions a lot.  I also would probably love
> Pulsonix.  But I am looking at spending less
> than 10K on software, preferably less than 5K.

Pulsonix starts at a lot less than that - £1250 for 1000 pins. Easy-
PC is about the same price as Eagle.

Leon

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 10:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: What is your favorite free PCB-CAD Designer


> On Thu, 07 Sep 2006 10:50:50 +0200, Andrew <andrewm1973@...> 
> wrote:
>
>> I am looking at spending less
>> than 10K on software, preferably less than 5K.
>> If I can get something that is good in all other
>> respects - but has a weird UI - I will be smiling.
>
> The danger is if the UI is crap the programmer has messed it up, and he
> has probably messed up lotsa other things too.
> Or it is some old thing carried over from DOS times that doesn't really
> interest me much if i'm going to buy new software.
>
> I really don't think it's a price issue. You can find good and bad UIs in
> any price range.
>
> The thing to do is try out all programs that you think may be an option
> for you, including those with bad UI if you don't mind that.

They bought Eagle where I used to work, I'd used my own copy of Pulsonix 
until then. I tried to use it for a design but found that it was taking me 
far longer than the same job would take with Pulsonix, and the additional 
keystrokes and mouse clicks were giving me RSI. It also had a nasty bug. I 
refused to use it and had a big row with management - they backed down and 
let me use Pulsonix. Another engineer there was very familiar with Eagle, 
they bought it on his recommendation and because it was cheap. He once spent 
two weeks doing a PCB that I could have done in under a day with Pulsonix! 
His two weeks work would have paid for a Pulsonix seat. Another engineer 
there has always refused to use Eagle and uses an old copy of Proteus, which 
isn't much better but he likes it.

Leon

> > Andrewm Wrote:
> >
> > I am looking at spending less
> > than 10K on software, preferably less than 5K.
> > If I can get something that is good in all other
> > respects - but has a weird UI - I will be smiling.

> ST wrote:
> 
> The danger is if the UI is crap the programmer has
> messed it up, and he has probably messed up lotsa
> other things too.

I think this is a theological argument about UIs - 
So it may be a completly non-standard for windows
and you can't realy used the words "messed up"
The UI might be perfect and just the way [s]he likes
it :D

> Or it is some old thing carried over from DOS times
> that doesn't really interest me much if i'm going
> to buy new software.

It doesn't interest me either.  I will put up with
whatever useable UI I have to to get the other
features I wan't.

> I really don't think it's a price issue. You can
> find good and bad UIs in any price range.

Yeps

> The thing to do is try out all programs that you
> think may be an option for you, including those
> with bad UI if you don't mind that.

Eagle which comes in under 2K seems to have most
of what I want.

Ki-Cad would be a real contender of it had 
autorouting. (GPL makes up for a lot)

CirCad, Target, WinQCad are all in my price range
but either don't have the

1, Open-ness of file format.

or

2, Momentum from a large user base to give
   confidence they will be around in 10 years.

Pulsonix, orcad/cadence are not in many peoples
price range.

For me it looks like eagle - but I have a few
weeks/months before I have to realy make a call.

> > AndrewM wrote:
> > I also would probably love
> > Pulsonix.  But I am looking at spending less
> > than 10K on software, preferably less than 5K.

> Leon wrote:
> Pulsonix starts at a lot less than that - £1250
> for 1000 pins. Easy-PC is about the same price
> as Eagle.

The reason I feel I need to ditch my beloved Auto-
trax is that I am probably soon going to be having
to work with 4 or 6 layers and many 1000's of pins.

I had a look at the pulsonix pricing.  When you
convert from pounds to aussie dollars for the set
of features that would be nice.  It ended up just
a tad more expensive than my 1000cc japanese
motorbike (with clutch left and brake right).

>> <Snip lots about UIs from many parties>

> Leon wrote:
>
> They bought Eagle where I used to work, I'd used
> my own copy of Pulsonix until then. I tried to
> use it for a design but found that it was taking
> me far longer than the same job would take with
> Pulsonix, and the additional keystrokes and mouse
> clicks were giving me RSI. It also had a nasty
> bug. I refused to use it and had a big row with
> management - they backed down and let me use
> Pulsonix.

Now - A "NASTY BUG" would be something far more
intersting to know about than "it has funny keys"

> Another engineer there was very familiar with
> Eagle, they bought it on his recommendation and
> because it was cheap. He once spent two weeks
> doing a PCB that I could have done in under a
> day with Pulsonix! 

Was the "he took a week with eagle" part due to
eagle or due to him ?  Would he have also taken
4.7 days if HE was using pulsonix ?

Weeks worth of productivity is worth $.  So if
there is a realy reason eagle is much slower I
would like to hear about it.

> His two weeks work would have paid for a
> Pulsonix seat. Another engineer there has always
> refused to use Eagle and uses an old copy of
> Proteus, which isn't much better but he likes it.

Sander,

PCB Wizard is about 175USD.
http://www.cadcam4u.com/PCS_Exclusive_PCBSoftware.htm

There are other vendors of course.

I went and looked up diptrace. Looks interesting. Thanks!

Regards,
Royce


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Sander Pool <sander@...> wrote:

> I looked at PCB Wizard but couldn't find pricing. I probably didn't
look 
> hard enough but I expect that crucial bit of info readily available. 
> Since the free demo is severely crippled I doubt there is a functional 
> free version available. Pulsonix is so horrendously expensive I doubt 
> any hobbyist would buy it for home use. It certainly isn't free like
the 

> original poster asked about.
> 
>
> 
>     Sander
>

On Thu, 07 Sep 2006 11:51:40 +0200, Andrew <andrewm1973@...> wrote:

>
> I think this is a theological argument about UIs -
> So it may be a completly non-standard for windows
> and you can't realy used the words "messed up"
> The UI might be perfect and just the way [s]he likes
> it :D


Yes, but if the developer thinks like myself he'll make it much like i  
would, which makes it easy to use and also easy to talk to the developers  
about changes features etc...


ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "\\M" <yahell@...> wrote:
>
> I used to work with EdWIN ver 6.?? but was rather disappointed when 
the 2000 or XP came out with new functions ... I'd love to lay my 
hands on the good old Edwin. Check with the Swedish distributor and 
see if I can shake loose an oldie.
> 
> I use S-plan today and I am not happy with that kind of programs. 
You make your schematics in one program and then you have to swap to 
the layout program called S-print and redo everything. I haven't 
found any import/export function.
> 
> /Magnus
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: roycepipkins 
>   To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 7:15 PM
>   Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: What is your favorite free PCB-CAD 
Designer
> 
> 
>   PCB Wizard from New Wave Concepts. The library is a bit weak but 
the
>   UI is so friendly that its a snap to make a new library component.
> 
>   PCB Wizard is the only PCB-CAD program I have ever seen that at 
all
>   adheres to Microsoft interface standards. The UI navigation 
skills you
>   have from MS Word, Excel, Visio etc., etc, etc. will transfer to 
this
>   program. It is obvious how to do most things if you use any sort 
of
>   common PC program.
> 
>   To be sure, it is a hobbiest grade tool. No one would ever be 
able to
>   make a PC motherboard with it. But I find the UI more than makes 
ups
>   for all of its short comings. I have to re-learn Eagle *every 
time*
>   becuase I don't use it enough to remember the click patterns to
>   activate functions. The click patterns don't make enough sense to 
me
>   to do any thing but wrote memorization of them.
> 
>   I don't know for a fact, but it sure feels like most PCB-CAD 
programs
>   are trying to adhere to some UI standard that dates back to DOS or
>   even eariler. I find them quite alien.
> 
>   With PCB Wizard I can just sit down, work, and work quickly. I 
don't
>   have to fight it.
> 
>   --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "jdizzlemynizzal"
>   <jdizzlemynizzal@> wrote:
>   >
>   > The program database on this group is a bit small. Name yours, 
and why
>   > you considre it better than average.
>   >
> 
> 
> 
>    
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Any word on the cost of PCB Wizard? preferably the pro version.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 10:59 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: What is your favorite free PCB-CAD Designer


> > AndrewM wrote:
> > I also would probably love
> > Pulsonix.  But I am looking at spending less
> > than 10K on software, preferably less than 5K.

> Leon wrote:
> Pulsonix starts at a lot less than that - \ufffd1250
> for 1000 pins. Easy-PC is about the same price
> as Eagle.

The reason I feel I need to ditch my beloved Auto-
trax is that I am probably soon going to be having
to work with 4 or 6 layers and many 1000's of pins.

I had a look at the pulsonix pricing.  When you
convert from pounds to aussie dollars for the set
of features that would be nice.  It ended up just
a tad more expensive than my 1000cc japanese
motorbike (with clutch left and brake right).

What bike do you have? I had a long break from owning bikes so the 
transition from British to Jap layout wasn't too traumatic. I still got it 
wrong sometimes. At 64 I'm a bit old to be riding a quick bike like the 
SV1000, especially at the speeds I ride it at.

Have a look at my Pulsonix Yahoo group:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PulsonixUG/

and try the demo. They will give you a full 20 day license if you ask them 
nicely. They are about to release a very large parts library containing most 
of the current MCUs, FPGAs, etc.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
leon.heller@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller










Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
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----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 11:08 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Eagle smells and i dont like it - was - Re: What is 
your favorite free PCB-CAD


>>> <Snip lots about UIs from many parties>
>
>> Leon wrote:
>>
>> They bought Eagle where I used to work, I'd used
>> my own copy of Pulsonix until then. I tried to
>> use it for a design but found that it was taking
>> me far longer than the same job would take with
>> Pulsonix, and the additional keystrokes and mouse
>> clicks were giving me RSI. It also had a nasty
>> bug. I refused to use it and had a big row with
>> management - they backed down and let me use
>> Pulsonix.
>
> Now - A "NASTY BUG" would be something far more
> intersting to know about than "it has funny keys"

This was a few years ago, it's probably been fixed. I didn't get any 
response from Cadsoft about it.

>
>> Another engineer there was very familiar with
>> Eagle, they bought it on his recommendation and
>> because it was cheap. He once spent two weeks
>> doing a PCB that I could have done in under a
>> day with Pulsonix!
>
> Was the "he took a week with eagle" part due to
> eagle or due to him ?  Would he have also taken
> 4.7 days if HE was using pulsonix ?

The two weeks was largely down to Eagle, he'd been using it for years. He 
spent a lot of that time getting a an awkward copper pour shape for a 
switching regulator exactly right, IIRC.

>
> Weeks worth of productivity is worth $.  So if
> there is a realy reason eagle is much slower I
> would like to hear about it.
>

I found that Eagle needed roughly twice the number of keystrokes and mouse 
operations as Pulsonix, for the same design. Plus, I just couldn't get used 
to the user interface. Pulsonix can import Eagle designs and libraries, 
which can be quite useful. I once used that facility to check a friend's 
Eagle PCB design that was giving him problems.

Leon

Leon

Leon

>Leon wrote:
> 
> What bike do you have?

Honda VTR1000F

> I had a long break from owning bikes so the 
> transition from British to Jap layout wasn't
> too traumatic. I still got it wrong
> sometimes.
> At 64 I'm a bit old to be riding a quick bike
> like the SV1000, especially at the speeds I
> ride it at.

I'm not game to realy open mine up.

> Have a look at my Pulsonix Yahoo group:
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PulsonixUG/
> and try the demo. They will give you a full
> 20 day license if you ask them nicely. They
> are about to release a very large parts library
> containing most of the current MCUs, FPGAs,
> etc.

OK - I will have a look.

But I still tend to think that it's a bit too
far up the price performance curve for me.

(I should have bought a cheaper bike too
seeing as I am too scared to realy get up the
VTR1000 and extract all its value)

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 12:48 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Vote - Should I sell my bike to buy a PCB-CAD tool 
:D


> >Leon wrote:
>>
>> What bike do you have?
>
> Honda VTR1000F

Similar to the SV1000 - V-twin and loads of torque! I find it difficult to 
keep mine at the 70 mph speed limit, I usually cruise at 110-120 mph on 
motorways. I do keep an eye open for the fuzz, of course, and haven't been 
caught yet.

Leon

Mr Leon.

This is the FUZZ. Public confessions might be good for the soul, but not 
for the bank balance. We have your bike under surveillance! Beware <g>.


Leon Heller wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Andrew" <andrewm1973@... 
> <mailto:andrewm1973%40hotmail.com>>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>>
> Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 12:48 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Vote - Should I sell my bike to buy a PCB-CAD 
> tool
> :D
>
> > >Leon wrote:
> >>
> >> What bike do you have?
> >
> > Honda VTR1000F
>
> Similar to the SV1000 - V-twin and loads of torque! I find it 
> difficult to
> keep mine at the 70 mph speed limit, I usually cruise at 110-120 mph on
> motorways. I do keep an eye open for the fuzz, of course, and haven't 
> been
> caught yet.
>
> Leon
>
>

> Leon wrote:
> Similar to the SV1000 - V-twin and loads
> of torque!

Made any PCBs for custom add ons to your
bike?  My only mod so far is an automatic
garage door opener.  Pretty lame realy.

> I find it difficult to keep
> mine at the 70 mph speed limit, I usually
> cruise at 110-120 mph on motorways.

Speed limit is 100K out here.  There are
too many cameras, lasers and radars on all
the nice straight roads to ever do much
more.

The only option of you want to speed is to
do it on suburban streets late at night in
the rain.

> I do
> keep an eye open for the fuzz, of course,
> and haven't been caught yet.

Fuzz - thats a funny word you english folk
use for police.  But does remind me of that
old joke.

Two working girls (optionaly a blonde and
brunette) where in the watch house after
being picked up for soliciting.  One (the
optionaly brunette one) turns to the other
and says "Don't you hate it when you get
caught by the fuzz".  The other (optionaly
blonde) replies "That never happens to me
I always shave it off".

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 10:34 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Bad Jokes and Bikes - was - Vote - was - 10K cad - 
was - Free CAD


>> Leon wrote:
>> Similar to the SV1000 - V-twin and loads
>> of torque!
>
> Made any PCBs for custom add ons to your
> bike?  My only mod so far is an automatic
> garage door opener.  Pretty lame realy.

There are plenty of electronic goodies available for it anyway, like a 
digital gear indicator, LED indicators, speedo corrector, computer interface 
for the ECU (to remap it), and so on. I'd thought of making my own speedo 
corrector - it goes between the sensor and the instrument cluster.

>
>> I find it difficult to keep
>> mine at the 70 mph speed limit, I usually
>> cruise at 110-120 mph on motorways.
>
> Speed limit is 100K out here.  There are
> too many cameras, lasers and radars on all
> the nice straight roads to ever do much
> more.

Some counties have lots of them, some have very few. Then there are the 
linked systems that do number plate recognition and calculate average speed. 
They don't work for bikes (yet) because they face the front of the vehicle. 
I have heard of someone with a fast bike who had a rotating number plate, 
when he reached the speed limit it automatically displayed a false number.

>
> The only option of you want to speed is to
> do it on suburban streets late at night in
> the rain.
>
>> I do
>> keep an eye open for the fuzz, of course,
>> and haven't been caught yet.
>
> Fuzz - thats a funny word you english folk
> use for police.  But does remind me of that
> old joke.

I looked it up, it came from the USA originally.

>
> Two working girls (optionaly a blonde and
> brunette) where in the watch house after
> being picked up for soliciting.  One (the
> optionaly brunette one) turns to the other
> and says "Don't you hate it when you get
> caught by the fuzz".  The other (optionaly
> blonde) replies "That never happens to me
> I always shave it off".

8-)

Leon

On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 00:02:20 +0200, Leon Heller  
<leon.heller@...> wrote:


> I have heard of someone with a fast bike who had a rotating number plate,
> when he reached the speed limit it automatically displayed a false  
> number.


I expect some would make a fuzz about that ;-)

ST

> Leon wrote:

> <snip UI and # of keystrokes>
>
> Pulsonix can import Eagle designs and libraries, 
> which can be quite useful. I once used that
> facility to check a friend's Eagle PCB design
> that was giving him problems.
> 

Can Pulsonix save to a common format that other
packages can read though ?

Open formats is pretty pretty close to the top
on my selection criteria.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 2:09 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Eagle smells and i dont like it - was - Re: What is 
your favorite free PCB-CAD


>> Leon wrote:
>
>> <snip UI and # of keystrokes>
>>
>> Pulsonix can import Eagle designs and libraries,
>> which can be quite useful. I once used that
>> facility to check a friend's Eagle PCB design
>> that was giving him problems.
>>
>
> Can Pulsonix save to a common format that other
> packages can read though ?
>
> Open formats is pretty pretty close to the top
> on my selection criteria.

It will export netlists for:
  a.. Accel PCB
  b.. PADS PCB
  c.. Zuken Rinf (Cadstar and Visula)
  d.. P-CAD PCB
  e.. OrCAD II DOS
  f.. Viewdraw
and there is a 'Part Mapper'. Orcad seems to use EDIF, which is the closest 
thing to a common format. The report writer can be used for user-defined 
netlists.

Leon

> Leon wrote:
>
> It will export netlists for:
>   a.. Accel PCB
>   b.. PADS PCB
>   c.. Zuken Rinf (Cadstar and Visula)
>   d.. P-CAD PCB
>   e.. OrCAD II DOS
>   f.. Viewdraw
> and there is a 'Part Mapper'. Orcad seems to
> use EDIF, which is the closest thing to a
> common format. The report writer can be used
> for user-defined netlists.

How about after the PCB is drawn ?  Eagle
seems to have the ability to import and export
documented ascii files that can describe a
PCB and can also I/O protel PCB.

gEDA and KirCad are lacking - but have an
openness that is well above the others.

I have looked at pulsonix enough to almost
think the 10K+ price could be worth it for
productivity.  But any gain made there may
be lost by not being able to share.

Eagle may be crap.  But it is common crap
is how I am still feeling.

I WILL still download the demo of pulsonix
and give it a try.  But I think the closed
format gives it a cross against its name.
(I could be wrong about the closed format
I just could not find any details)

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 6:37 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Eagle smells and i dont like it - was - Re: What is 
your favorite free PCB-CAD


>> Leon wrote:
>>
>> It will export netlists for:
>>   a.. Accel PCB
>>   b.. PADS PCB
>>   c.. Zuken Rinf (Cadstar and Visula)
>>   d.. P-CAD PCB
>>   e.. OrCAD II DOS
>>   f.. Viewdraw
>> and there is a 'Part Mapper'. Orcad seems to
>> use EDIF, which is the closest thing to a
>> common format. The report writer can be used
>> for user-defined netlists.
>
> How about after the PCB is drawn ?  Eagle
> seems to have the ability to import and export
> documented ascii files that can describe a
> PCB and can also I/O protel PCB.

It obviouisly can, because it can be used with other autorouters like 
Specctra. It would be best to ask Pulsonix about it.

>
> gEDA and KirCad are lacking - but have an
> openness that is well above the others.
>
> I have looked at pulsonix enough to almost
> think the 10K+ price could be worth it for
> productivity.  But any gain made there may
> be lost by not being able to share.
>
> Eagle may be crap.  But it is common crap
> is how I am still feeling.

I wouldn't say that it is crap, it's just difficult to use. It will usually 
get the job done, albeit with a lot of difficulty. I don't think that anyone 
is using it for complex multi-layer boards.

>
> I WILL still download the demo of pulsonix
> and give it a try.  But I think the closed
> format gives it a cross against its name.
> (I could be wrong about the closed format
> I just could not find any details)

Just email Pulsonix with any questions: support@...

Leon

--- Leon Heller <leon.heller@...> wrote:
...
> > > I also would probably love
> > > Pulsonix.  But I am looking at spending less
> > > than 10K on software, preferably less than 5K.
>... 
> The reason I feel I need to ditch my beloved Auto-
> trax is that I am probably soon going to be having
> to work with 4 or 6 layers and many 1000's of pins.
>

doesn't sound [Homebrew_PCBs] to me...


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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>doesn't sound [Homebrew_PCBs] to me...

Bingo! Sounds more like a six dollar US bill with Clinton blowing the 
Sax on it.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Herbert E. Plett" 
<cachureos@...> wrote:
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Herbert E. Plett"
<cachureos@...> wrote:
>
> --- Leon Heller <leon.heller@...> wrote:
> ...
> > > > I also would probably love
> > > > Pulsonix.  But I am looking at spending less
> > > > than 10K on software, preferably less than 5K.
> >... 
> > The reason I feel I need to ditch my beloved Auto-
> > trax is that I am probably soon going to be having
> > to work with 4 or 6 layers and many 1000's of pins.
> >
> 
> doesn't sound [Homebrew_PCBs] to me...

I don't get it. The list has no limit on complexity of boards.

"Designing, making, etching, soldering, printed circuit boards yourself.

Any method allowed by law and local custom including photo, CAM, toner
transfer, direct printing, plotter, laundry pen, silkscreening,
toaster oven, paint stripper heat gun, conductive paint or epoxy,
storebought or homemade etchant, etc."

I don't mean that to say that you must design -and- make -and- etch
-and- solder or it's off topic. I mean any of those aspects are on
topic for the list.

Steve Greenfield
(ps, I'm the listowner)

On Fri, 08 Sep 2006 20:17:33 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:

>
>> doesn't sound [Homebrew_PCBs] to me...
> I don't get it. The list has no limit on complexity of boards.


I don't think it was meant as a comment that it is off topic, more like  
the experiences in this group are mostly with one or two layer PCBs with a  
few hundred pins at most, using low end PCB software, and may not be much  
use for someone planning to spend $1000 or more on the software.

ST

>I mean any of those aspects are on
>topic for the list.

Don't know whether surveys were done or whether it was sheer 
speculation but according to one news article...a fairly large 
percentage of people seen talking on cell phones in public have nobody 
on the other end. Now why would anyone in their right mind do a thing 
like that?

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@...> wrote:
>

Same reason they walk around with a little blue illuminated devices stuck in
their ear when they are not even on the phone.

 

They've been assimilated.

 

>Len

 

  _____  

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of derekhawkins
Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 5:52 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: What is your favorite free PCB-CAD Designer

 

>I mean any of those aspects are on
>topic for the list.

Don't know whether surveys were done or whether it was sheer 
speculation but according to one news article...a fairly large 
percentage of people seen talking on cell phones in public have nobody 
on the other end. Now why would anyone in their right mind do a thing 
like that?

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@ <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@...> wrote:
>

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> > > > Me wrote:
> > > > I also would probably love
> > > > Pulsonix.  But I am looking at spending less
> > > > than 10K on software, preferably less than 5K.

> > >... 

> > Me also wrote:
> > The reason I feel I need to ditch my beloved Auto-
> > trax is that I am probably soon going to be having
> > to work with 4 or 6 layers and many 1000's of pins.
 
> Herbert wrote:
> doesn't sound [Homebrew_PCBs] to me...

Depends how complex a thing you do in your home :D

I hope to have multi layer PTH happening in my home
some time soon :D

--- Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:
...
> I don't get it. The list has no limit on complexity of boards.
> 
> "Designing, making, etching, soldering, printed circuit boards yourself.

sure, but does a 6 layer board fit into a "homebrew" concept?
designing a board at home and then sending it to a million dollar facility for
manufacture is not my idea of homebrew!
home -> kitchen / garage / basement / backyard...

BTW, I would love to know how to 'homebrew' a >2 layer board, well, even I
would be very happy to just know how to make a simple ordinary double sided
with vias without a piece of wire in them...
(this was my very first post to this list :-) but the answer still eludes me)


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> home -> kitchen / garage / basement / backyard...

forgot to add

brew -> (think of those pictures of middle-age alchemists working)



__________________________________________________
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> Herbert wrote:
>
> sure, but does a 6 layer board fit into a
> "homebrew" concept?

If you do it at home I would guess it does.

Homebrew beer starts with people that pour
a brigalow kit into some water and wait two
weeks.  It ranges all the way up to the
people that grow thier own hops so they can
pick it on the third wedensday after
pentacost to make sure it has just the right
hoppish taste. (maybe they sacrafice a few
goats too)

> designing a board at home and then sending
> it to a million dollar facility for
> manufacture is not my idea of homebrew!

I DO send boards out to get made by the
profesionals most of the time.  However
sometimes the clients just can't wait and
I have to make boards at home.

At present this is two layer photo process
with no PTH.  I use those time consuming
bail things made by multicore to to vias.

Seeing as I am going to set up to do PTH
I may as well go the full hog and do multi
layer as well.  (I have just inherited a
project with stupidly large pin count CPUs
and many layers)

> home -> kitchen/garage/basement/backyard...

There are at least 3 people on this group
doing PTH at home that I know of 

Adam Seychell - who shows pics of his PTH
setup in the photos section of this yahoo
group.

Mzing - who has his set up shown here
http://www.myhome.ch/mzingg/pcbstuff/tps/

And finaly Roel - who I beleive also does
more than two layers.

No offence if I left anyone else out.

> BTW, I would love to know how to 'homebrew'
> a >2 layer board, well, even I would be
> very happy to just know how to make a
> simple ordinary double sided with vias
> without a piece of wire in them... (this
> was my very first post to this list :-)
> but the answer still eludes me)


There is a description (provided by Adam I
think) in the files section under plating.

If you don't want to mix your own black ink
up - check out Think and Tink.

http://www.thinktink.com/stack/volumes/voli/store/inksup.htm

They sell special magic patented black ink
for doing it.


Before I get serious about the PTH tanks
and the press for multi layer I need to
finish making a CNC drill and want to make
a photo plotter.

The CNC drill is a MUST.  It is the only
sensible way to drill holes before etching.

The photo plotter is just a "nice".  I get
quite decent results with a laser printer
onto vellum.  I don't think it is good
enough for 6/6 with small anular rings on
a PTH board though.

Derek will come fwd and say I should be
using an inkjet.  And I admit he has good
looking boards.  (When get my macro lens
I just hope I can get my photos looking as
good as his). 

Derek even shows some comparisons between
inkies and lasers here

http://www.pbase.com/eldata/lasvsink

But I still think that a laser plotter is
the way to go.  When I knew someone in a
printing shop I occasionaly got him to do
me photo tools on his lino machine.  The
contrast of the laser is not comparable.

I am still making slow progress on the
photo plotter for anyone reading that is
interested.  Due to the help of one of the
guys here on HomeBrew I still think I can
make the six month to completion goal I
set myself :D

>I hope to have multi layer PTH happening in my home
>some time soon :D

That's before or after the laser plotter and the 30,000 RPM brushless 
spindle? 

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...> wrote:
>

> > Me wrote:
> >I hope to have multi layer PTH happening in my home
> >some time soon :D
> 
> That's before or after the laser plotter and the
> 30,000 RPM brushless  spindle? 

You forgot the spray etch machine.

They are all part of the same goal :)

On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 14:50:53 +0200, Andrew <andrewm1973@...> wrote:

>
> Mzing - who has his set up shown here
> http://www.myhome.ch/mzingg/pcbstuff/tps/
> And finaly Roel - who I beleive also does
> more than two layers.
> No offence if I left anyone else out.


M. Zingg also does multilayer with a heated press and epoxy.

As you said where it makes sense is if you have customers jumping up and  
down needing prototypes yesterday and willing to pay for it. Instead of  
giving insane amounts of money to PCB houses for short (still  
comparatively long) turnaround you can charge that money yourself and make  
that board at home.

It does not make particularly much sense to invest $500, probably more, on  
starting materials if you only want to do one or two boards for yourself,  
then it seems much better to give them to a board house.

But still, the vast majority of this group does not make multilayer at  
home - not that i don't like the discussion of it.

If you put enough effort into it you can make almost everything at home.


ST

On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 14:51:16 +0200, derekhawkins <eldata@...> wrote:

>
> That's before or after the laser plotter and the 30,000 RPM brushless
> spindle?


It's after the time machine. The list gets kind of muddled and keeps  
changing after that..... ;-)

ST

>The CNC drill is a MUST. It is the only
>sensible way to drill holes before etching.

It's the only sensible way to drill holes IMO. But drilling before 
etching makes no sense to me. CNC drilling seemed to have been high on 
wish lists in the group until the resident machinist declared that any 
backlash greater than .001" (or some similar nonsense from his 
textbook) just wasn't going to cut it. Surprisingly, he seems to still 
drill by hand.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...> wrote:
>

> > Me wrote:
> > The CNC drill is a MUST. It is the only
> > sensible way to drill holes before etching.
> 

> Derek with the nice photos wrote:
> It's the only sensible way to drill holes IMO.
> But drilling before etching makes no sense to
> me.

Drilling before etching is what you HAVE to do
if you want through plated holes or multi layer.

Drill holes in blank copper
activate the holewall
Plate the holes through
Apply the photoresist
Develop
Etch
strip

> CNC drilling seemed to have been high on 
> wish lists in the group until the resident
> machinist declared that any backlash greater
> than .001" (or some similar nonsense from his 
> textbook) just wasn't going to cut it.
> Surprisingly, he seems to still drill by hand.

I reckon I woudl be happy with one thou
backlash.  And if I was not happy with it I
reckon I would just always approch a hole from
the same direction.

CNC is a must I feel fot PTH.  If you don't
have CNC you have to do and extra photo 
development at the start to act as guide to
drill by.

> Derek with the nice photos wrote:

Flattery will get you nowhere.

> Drilling before etching is what you HAVE to do
> if you want through plated holes or multi layer.

IIRC, only the outer layers are etched after drilling. Inner layers 
are etched, stacked and epoxied before the first drill. Whatever, I 
was referring to 1 or 2 layer boards, which in reality you may end 
up doing most of the time.

> I reckon I woudl be happy with one thou
> backlash.  And if I was not happy with it I
> reckon I would just always approch a hole from
> the same direction.

Even the free CNC software packages come with backlash compensation 
built in. Doesn't help much for some milling operations but works 
fine for drilling.

> CNC is a must I feel fot PTH.

A word of advice...Send out any boards you're selling...If your 
clients can't wait or afford it then you're in the wrong business.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...> 
wrote:
>

> > CNC drilling seemed to have been high on wish lists in the 
> group until 
> > the resident machinist declared that any backlash greater 
> than .001" 
> > (or some similar nonsense from his
> > textbook) just wasn't going to cut it.
> > Surprisingly, he seems to still drill by hand.
> 
> I reckon I woudl be happy with one thou
> backlash.  And if I was not happy with it I reckon I would 
> just always approch a hole from the same direction.
> 
> CNC is a must I feel fot PTH.  If you don't have CNC you have 
> to do and extra photo development at the start to act as 
> guide to drill by.


1/1000" is 0.0254mm.  More than enough for thru hole PCBs.  The errors don't
accumulate, so even 0.1mm accuracy is enough (especially for hand assembly).
And you drill the holes oversize anyway.

A quick and dirty way to eliminate backlash on a lightweight machine is to
attach a tape measure (or two) to it.  A tape measure contains a negator
spring (like a clock spring) and provides a constant force.  Hook one to the
X & another to the Y axis, same principle as using a counter weight.

You can adjust the negator for more/less force, and replace the tape with a
cable so it looks more 'professional'.  You'd be surprised at the amount of
force you can get.  Obviously the cheaper the tape measure, the sooner it
will fail.  Good negator springs are expensive, tape measures are dirt
cheap.

Tony

> > Me wrote:
> > I reckon I woudl be happy with one thou
> > backlash.  And if I was not happy with it I
> > reckon I would just always approch a hole from
> > the same direction.

> Derek wrote:
> Even the free CNC software packages come with
> backlash compensation built in. Doesn't help
> much for some milling operations but works 
> fine for drilling.

Yeah - I am using the main free one.  EMC2 from
linuxcnc.org.  Coming at the holes from one side
easy enough to program in and means I don't have
to rely on having repeatable backlash in the
mechanics.

I don't realy know enough about machines to know
if I am just being paranoid about this though.

> > CNC is a must I feel fot PTH.
> 
> A word of advice...Send out any boards you're
> selling...If your clients can't wait or afford
> it then you're in the wrong business.

If YOUR clients can't afford the price I charge
for getting a demo/proto ready for a trade show in
a few days notice YOU'RE in the wrong business :D

> It's the only sensible way to drill holes IMO. But drilling before
> etching makes no sense to me. CNC drilling seemed to have been high on
> wish lists in the group until the resident machinist declared that any
> backlash greater than .001" (or some similar nonsense from his
> textbook) just wasn't going to cut it. Surprisingly, he seems to still
> drill by hand.

The beauty of CNC is that if you do things properly, the amount of
backlash is actually irrelevant.

The secret is to ensure that you always approach the location from the
same side of the backlash. Then your holes will be very precisely
located (as precise as the leadscrew) regardless of the amount of
backlash.

-- 
Dave Hylands
Vancouver, BC, Canada
http://www.DaveHylands.com/

>The secret is to ensure that you always approach the location from 
>the same side of the backlash. 

How do you do that for both X and Y axes? 

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Hylands" <dhylands@...> 
wrote:
>

Hi Derek,

On 9/9/06, derekhawkins <eldata@...> wrote:
> >The secret is to ensure that you always approach the location from
> >the same side of the backlash.
>
> How do you do that for both X and Y axes?

Assume you're starting at the origin (bottom left).

Advance Y to the hole with the lowest Y value.
Advance X to the hole. You can continue advancing X for values with the same Y.
Advance to the next Y value. If you are to the right of the lowest X
value, you need to backup past the X value by more than the backlash
amount and then advance to the X.

Another way of looking at it on a move-by-move basis

if desired-Y < current-Y
    move to desired-Y minus largest Y-backlash amount
move to desired-Y

if desired-X < current-X
    move to desired-X minus largest X-backlash amount
move to desired-X

Using the above guarantees that you're always approaching each hole
from the same side of the backlash.

If you figure that your backlash was 0.008, then I'd probably use a
largest backlash amount of 0.020 to be safe.

Many CNC programs support backlash compensation, which requires
entering a faily accurate backlash amount. The accurate backlash
amount is only needed for milling. For drilling, you can use a larger
value than the actual backlash.

-- 
Dave Hylands
Vancouver, BC, Canada
http://www.DaveHylands.com/

>Using the above guarantees that you're always approaching each hole
>from the same side of the backlash.

Thought you had some means that didn't utilize backlash 
compensation. You can get zero backlash on only one axis without 
compensation during CNC drilling by optimizing the Excellon output for 
that axis. The other has to be compensated.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Hylands" <dhylands@...> 
wrote:
>

> Thought you had some means that didn't
> utilize backlash compensation. You can
> get zero backlash on only one axis without 
> compensation during CNC drilling by
> optimizing the Excellon output for that
> axis. The other has to be compensated.

Parse the g-code so that before every drill
it retreats a little bit in both X and Y.

Then it is approaching every hole from the
same direction.

It's kind of an un-optimisation.  There
would be better strategies no doubt.  It
is a dead cert to work though.

>Parse the g-code so that before every drill
>it retreats a little bit in both X and Y.

CNC sofware does a much better job than that based on the actual 
backlash you tell it. If you take the Excellon ouput and sort on one 
axis (low to high for example) then that axis never reverses (assuming 
you start drilling at the lowest coordinate) hence zero backlash on 
that axis. Usually this feature is built into either the Excellon CAM 
processor or the Excellon to G-code converter.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...> wrote:
>

Andrew wrote:
>>>Me wrote:
>>>The CNC drill is a MUST. It is the only
>>>sensible way to drill holes before etching.
>>
> 
>>Derek with the nice photos wrote:
>>It's the only sensible way to drill holes IMO.
>>But drilling before etching makes no sense to
>>me.
> 
> 
> Drilling before etching is what you HAVE to do
> if you want through plated holes or multi layer.
> 
> Drill holes in blank copper
> activate the holewall
> Plate the holes through
> Apply the photoresist
> Develop
> Etch
> strip
> 
> 
>>CNC drilling seemed to have been high on 
>>wish lists in the group until the resident
>>machinist declared that any backlash greater
>>than .001" (or some similar nonsense from his 
>>textbook) just wasn't going to cut it.
>>Surprisingly, he seems to still drill by hand.
> 
> 
> I reckon I woudl be happy with one thou
> backlash.  And if I was not happy with it I
> reckon I would just always approch a hole from
> the same direction.
> 
> CNC is a must I feel fot PTH.  If you don't
> have CNC you have to do and extra photo 
> development at the start to act as guide to
> drill by.
> 

It makes no real difference if boards are PTH or not, both need similar 
hole accuracy. If you're doing 'tent and etch' boards (as you described 
above) then you must position holes well within the pad boundary or else 
the resist film cannot successfully tent the hole. For 'pattern plate' 
boards you can drill a hole wherever you feel like and still have it plated.

PATTERN PLATE
----------------
drill holes on blank board
apply photo resist
expose/develop
electroplate copper
electroplate 2~6um tin
strip resist
etch copper


I cannot comprehend the justification for a hobbyist owning a dedicated 
CNC PCB drill who, on average, makes no more than 1 PCB/fortnight. A 
well built hand drill press does the job. And, especially since 
everything is SMD (or soon will be), the only things left to drill are 
connectors, power components, and of course vias.

Adam

> Adam wrote:
>
> I cannot comprehend the justification for
> a hobbyist owning a dedicated CNC PCB drill
> who, on average, makes no more than 1 
> PCB/fortnight.

The fun of making it yourself is one easy
to comprehend justification.

Having to get a board with several hundred
vias finished in a shorter period of time than
you could get a professional house to start
it.

Having a general interest in CNC anyways (from
doing your Seig X3 mill all the way down to
making CNC music box roll cutters and CNC
balsa wood planners)

> A 
> well built hand drill press does the job.
> And, especially since everything is SMD
> (or soon will be), the only things left to
> drill are connectors, power components, and
> of course vias.

I've got one of the Sakai drill presses which
I think is pretty nice.  But I still don't
like drilling hundreds of holes.

And as they always say.  Why buy something 
for $10 when you can make it yourself for
only $100

:D

>But I still don't
>like drilling hundreds of holes.

Even two is too much. These three prototypes (only 2" X 1.6") have a 
total of 138 holes (mainly headers) and they're SMD all the way;

http://www.pbase.com/eldata/image/66582088

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...> wrote:
>

Andrew wrote:
>>Adam wrote:
>>
>>I cannot comprehend the justification for
>>a hobbyist owning a dedicated CNC PCB drill
>>who, on average, makes no more than 1 
>>PCB/fortnight.
> 
> 
> The fun of making it yourself is one easy
> to comprehend justification.
> 
> Having to get a board with several hundred
> vias finished in a shorter period of time than
> you could get a professional house to start
> it.
> 
> Having a general interest in CNC anyways (from
> doing your Seig X3 mill all the way down to
> making CNC music box roll cutters and CNC
> balsa wood planners)
> 
> 
>>A 
>>well built hand drill press does the job.
>>And, especially since everything is SMD
>>(or soon will be), the only things left to
>>drill are connectors, power components, and
>>of course vias.
> 
> 
> I've got one of the Sakai drill presses which
> I think is pretty nice.  But I still don't
> like drilling hundreds of holes.
> 
> And as they always say.  Why buy something 
> for $10 when you can make it yourself for
> only $100
> 
> :D
> 

True, true. If building a hobby CNC drill is a 'fun' project then why 
not, if thats what someone enjoys doing. I'm currently building a spray 
etcher, and I know that the improvement in etch quality and time I'm 
going to save isn't that significant compared to some ferric chloride in 
an ice-cream container and waving a paint brush over the copper. I've 
spend well over $100 so far and countless hours, it is the 2nd major 
revision. When complete, I'll be able to professionally etch a 320x230mm 
PCB., and then break open the champaign. If anyones interested I can 
upload some photos.

Adam

>I'm currently building a spray etcher, and I know that the
>improvement in etch quality and time I'm going to save isn't that
>significant

Suppose you won first prize in a homebrew PCB making contest and the
prize was either a CNC drill setup or a spray etcher, which would you
choose assuming you had neither already and reselling the prize wasn't 
an option?

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Adam Seychell <a_seychell@...> 
wrote:
>

derekhawkins wrote:
 > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Adam Seychell <a_seychell@...>
 > wrote:
>>I'm currently building a spray etcher, and I know that the
>>improvement in etch quality and time I'm going to save isn't that
>>significant
> 
> Suppose you won first prize in a homebrew PCB making contest and the
> prize was either a CNC drill setup or a spray etcher, which would you
> choose assuming you had neither already and reselling the prize wasn't 
> an option?

His spray etcher looks pretty damn impressive and is a harder thing to
get working right because of the other design problems involved rather
than just a bit of X-Y positioning using a couple of motors;)
I can make a milling machine any old time. The main challenge for
that is decent control software.

>> Adam wrote
>> I'm currently building a spray etcher, and
>> I know that the improvement in etch quality
>> and time I'm going to save isn't that
>> significant

> DerekH wrotre:
> Suppose you won first prize in a homebrew
> PCB making contest and the prize was either
> a CNC drill setup or a spray etcher, which
> would you choose assuming you had neither
> already and reselling the prize wasn't an
> option?

Assuming it wasn't a loaded question - could
we complicate it further by including

1, Photoplotter 
2, Laminator (photoresist and soldermask)
3, Decent UV exposure box.

>I can make a milling machine any old time. The main challenge for
>that is decent control software.

It's quite obvious where your head is. The purpose of my question was 
to zero in on which of the two projects would result in reduced 
recurrent expenditure in terms of physical resources and time.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Russell Shaw <rjshaw@...> wrote:
>

>Assuming it wasn't a loaded question - could
>we complicate it further by including

Priorities all mixed up just like the rest. Exposure box should be #1. 
Also, if you're using laser artwork then forget UV, use daylight 
tubes. The box will double as a normal light box for pinhole 
correction. You can also use it as a compact light source for indoor 
macro shots, shoot raw and adjust white balance afterwards if 
necessary.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...> wrote:
>

derekhawkins wrote:
>>I can make a milling machine any old time. The main challenge for
>>that is decent control software.
> 
> It's quite obvious where your head is.

???

 > The purpose of my question was
> to zero in on which of the two projects would result in reduced 
> recurrent expenditure in terms of physical resources and time.

Milling machines are crap for removing copper. I routinely do 200-hole
pcbs with a hand drill press.

>Milling machines are crap for removing copper.

Are we on the same page? I was suggesting that a CNC drilling setup 
had more practical value to the PCB homebrewer than a spray etching 
setup. Wasn't suggesting PCB milling over conventional etching. Both 
CNC drilling and spray etching projects were considered fanatical 
pursuits by the starter of this thread.

>I routinely do 200-hole pcbs with a hand drill press.

And since this only takes 5 or so minutes it's the last thing on your 
process improvement list. Etching on the other hand takes hours, 
requires a certain amount of skill and concentration so a spray etcher 
is high on your process improvement list. Whatever floats your boat.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Russell Shaw <rjshaw@...> wrote:
>

> > Andrewm wrote:
> >Assuming it wasn't a loaded question - could
> >we complicate it further by including

> Derek wrote: 
> Priorities all mixed up just like the rest.
> Exposure box should be #1.  Also, if you're
> using laser artwork then forget UV, use
> daylight tubes. The box will double as a
> normal light box for pinhole correction. You
> can also use it as a compact light source for
> indoor macro shots, shoot raw and adjust
> white balance afterwards if necessary.

Huh.  How do I have my priorities mixed up ?

I HAVE a UV exposure box.  I agree it is the
absolute first thing you need if you are going
to photo etch small tracks.

I just wanted to know what order other people
would put the tools in.

My personal order would be (assuming a good
laser or inkjet is given)

1, UV source (you can't depend on the sun)
2, Etching equipment
3, Photoplotter (As it is easier than a CNC
   drill and you may as well have excellent
   photo tools before you go PTH)
4, CNC drill  (Only needed when doing PTH)


Though I do disagree with your statement
about the laser printer and daylight tubes.
I would quite happily put up the laser I
use in a UV opacity competition against just
about any injket.  The laser printer in front
of me here is just a class above my little
HP4000 at home.

> > > Andrewm wrote:
  The laser printer in front
> of me here is just a class above my little
> HP4000 at home.

OK I'll bite! What model is it?
Tks
JC

> > Andrewm wrote:
> > The laser printer in front
> > of me here is just a class above my little
> > HP4000 at home.

> JC (John Craddock not Jesus Christ) wrote:
> OK I'll bite! What model is it?
> JC

Fuji Xerox Docucentre C4xx.

I beleive they are using the technology they
bought from tektronics.

It puts down a good thick layer of black
plastic when I print onto vellum.

I can hold a print out up to the window that
faces kangaroo point if you have a good pair
of binoculars.

> I would quite happily put up the laser I
> use in a UV opacity competition against just
> about any injket. 

Haah-hah (with apologies to Nelson Munz). You're in for another 
disappointment when you start using laser artwork for CNC work. 
Dimensional accuracy sucks big time.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...> wrote:
>

>It puts down a good thick layer of black
>plastic when I print onto vellum.

Vellum is translucent not transparent. The more opaque the media the 
greater the overall opacity. What about transparencies? Thought we 
were going apples one on one and now you pull an orange from your 
fanny. LOL!

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...> wrote:
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "derekhawkins" <eldata@...> wrote:
>Russell Wrote:
> >Milling machines are crap for removing copper.
> 
> Are we on the same page? I was suggesting that a CNC drilling setup 
> had more practical value to the PCB homebrewer than a spray etching 
> setup. Wasn't suggesting PCB milling over conventional etching. Both 
> CNC drilling and spray etching projects were considered fanatical 
> pursuits by the starter of this thread.
> 
> >I routinely do 200-hole pcbs with a hand drill press.

OK, it's settled, I get the CNC drilling machine, 'cause Russell
doesn't want it!

Steve Greenfield

> > Andrewm wrote:
> > I would quite happily put up the laser I
> > use in a UV opacity competition against just
> > about any injket. 
> 
> Haah-hah (with apologies to Nelson Munz).
> You're in for another disappointment when
> you start using laser artwork for CNC work. 
> Dimensional accuracy sucks big time.

I am not planing on doing CNC till I have the
laser plotter running.

I suspect the dimensional accuracy there
should be acceptable :D

>I am not planing on doing CNC till I have the
>laser plotter running.

Let me know if you need small servo drives.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...> wrote:
>

> > Andrewm Wrote:
> > It puts down a good thick layer of black
> > plastic when I print onto vellum.

> Derek wrote:
> Vellum is translucent not transparent. The
> more opaque the media the greater the
> overall opacity. What about transparencies?

Never tried it on trannys.  I always thought
that vellum was almost invisable to UV light.

> Thought we were going apples one on one and
> now you pull an orange from your 
> fanny. LOL!

Derek, I will give it a go on trannys just
for you.

BTW - I think we use the word "fanny" to
describe a different part of the anatomy
here with all the convicts.  Last time I
checked I didn't have one (just like the
other kinda trannys don't have a fanny)

derekhawkins wrote:
>>Milling machines are crap for removing copper.
> 
> Are we on the same page? I was suggesting that a CNC drilling setup 
> had more practical value to the PCB homebrewer than a spray etching 
> setup. Wasn't suggesting PCB milling over conventional etching. Both 
> CNC drilling and spray etching projects were considered fanatical 
> pursuits by the starter of this thread.
> 
>>I routinely do 200-hole pcbs with a hand drill press.
> 
> And since this only takes 5 or so minutes it's the last thing on your 
> process improvement list. Etching on the other hand takes hours, 
> requires a certain amount of skill and concentration so a spray etcher 
> is high on your process improvement list. Whatever floats your boat.

You asked for opinions and you got it.

A decent spray etcher cuts the "hours, requires a certain amount of skill
and concentration" to a much quicker and less tedious activity.

Steve wrote:
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "derekhawkins" <eldata@...> wrote:
> 
>>Russell Wrote:
>>
>>>Milling machines are crap for removing copper.
>>
>>Are we on the same page? I was suggesting that a CNC drilling setup 
>>had more practical value to the PCB homebrewer than a spray etching 
>>setup. Wasn't suggesting PCB milling over conventional etching. Both 
>>CNC drilling and spray etching projects were considered fanatical 
>>pursuits by the starter of this thread.
>>
>>>I routinely do 200-hole pcbs with a hand drill press.
> 
> OK, it's settled, I get the CNC drilling machine, 'cause Russell
> doesn't want it!

He asked for opinions and he got it.

A better use for a CNC machine is machining the front panels of
project boxes, which is what motivates me to making one. Once i
had a CNC, i'd use it for pcb drilling too, but none of that changes
the requirement for a decent etcher.