Homebrew_PCBs

> Hi all,
> I prefer Target3001! Because of the following:
> It has an extensive part catalog that is uptaded through the net.
> Parts, drilling sizes, pads, etc. can be modified after placed in the
> PCB.
> The price is right and board size is not limited. you can get a decent
> version for 42EUR and a very large one for 470 EUR. There is a tiny
> version for free.
> Support is good, they will incorporate new parts for free if you ask
> them to.
> It has cut and paste capabilities in Windows, manual drilling plans
> for smaller projects, and a nice user manual in PDf format.
> I found it at:
> http://www.ibfriedrich.com
> Hugo

----- Original Message -----
From: jdizzlemynizzal
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 10:30 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] What is your favorite free PCB-CAD Designer


The program database on this group is a bit small. Name yours, and why
you considre it better than average.






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>I've also found that the board size limit of the free version only
>applies to the populated area. So really you can make the board as
>big as you want but your circuit can only take up a 100X80mm area.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, <william.kroyer@...> wrote:
>

>
> The program database on this group is a bit small. Name yours, and why
> you considre it better than average.
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "roycepipkins" <royce.pipkins@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 6:15 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: What is your favorite free PCB-CAD Designer


> PCB Wizard from New Wave Concepts. The library is a bit weak but the
> UI is so friendly that its a snap to make a new library component.
>
> PCB Wizard is the only PCB-CAD program I have ever seen that at all
> adheres to Microsoft interface standards. The UI navigation skills you
> have from MS Word, Excel, Visio etc., etc, etc. will transfer to this
> program. It is obvious how to do most things if you use any sort of
> common PC program.

One of the reasons why Pulsonix is so eay to use is that it conforms to the
MS standards. I often cut and paste from other applications into Pulsonix,
it saves a lot of time when creating parts as the pin names don't have to be
typed in.

Leon

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "roycepipkins" <royce.pipkins@...
> <mailto:royce.pipkins%40gmail.com>>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 6:15 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: What is your favorite free PCB-CAD Designer
>
> > PCB Wizard from New Wave Concepts. The library is a bit weak but the
> > UI is so friendly that its a snap to make a new library component.
> >
> > PCB Wizard is the only PCB-CAD program I have ever seen that at all
> > adheres to Microsoft interface standards. The UI navigation skills you
> > have from MS Word, Excel, Visio etc., etc, etc. will transfer to this
> > program. It is obvious how to do most things if you use any sort of
> > common PC program.
>
> One of the reasons why Pulsonix is so eay to use is that it conforms
> to the
> MS standards. I often cut and paste from other applications into
> Pulsonix,
> it saves a lot of time when creating parts as the pin names don't have
> to be
> typed in.
>
> Leon
>
>

>
> I don't know for a fact, but it sure feels like most PCB-CAD programs
> are trying to adhere to some UI standard that dates back to DOS or
> even eariler. I find them quite alien.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sander Pool" <sander@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 8:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: What is your favorite free PCB-CAD Designer


>
> I just installed Diptrace and it was very easy to get started. Without
> reading the manual or tutorial I was able to construct an easy circuit.
> I then followed the tutorial and learned how things really worked :) The
> interface isn't quite MS standard but it's pretty close. Certainly a lot
> more intuitive than Eagle which I used in the past.
>
> I looked at PCB Wizard but couldn't find pricing. I probably didn't look
> hard enough but I expect that crucial bit of info readily available.
> Since the free demo is severely crippled I doubt there is a functional
> free version available. Pulsonix is so horrendously expensive I doubt
> any hobbyist would buy it for home use. It certainly isn't free like the
> original poster asked about.
>
> I also downloaded and installed Kicad. Looks nice but there were some
> drawing issues when you move components. Because Kicad lacks an
> autorouter I'm sticking with Diptrace for now.

Easy-PC is about the same price as Eagle but is much easier to use. It is
also fully Windows-based.

Leon

On 9/6/06, Leon Heller <leon.heller@...> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sander Pool" <sander@... <sander%40tungstentech.com>>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 8:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: What is your favorite free PCB-CAD
> Designer
>
> >
> > I just installed Diptrace and it was very easy to get started. Without
> > reading the manual or tutorial I was able to construct an easy circuit.
> > I then followed the tutorial and learned how things really worked :) The
> > interface isn't quite MS standard but it's pretty close. Certainly a lot
> > more intuitive than Eagle which I used in the past.
> >
> > I looked at PCB Wizard but couldn't find pricing. I probably didn't look
> > hard enough but I expect that crucial bit of info readily available.
> > Since the free demo is severely crippled I doubt there is a functional
> > free version available. Pulsonix is so horrendously expensive I doubt
> > any hobbyist would buy it for home use. It certainly isn't free like the
> > original poster asked about.
> >
> > I also downloaded and installed Kicad. Looks nice but there were some
> > drawing issues when you move components. Because Kicad lacks an
> > autorouter I'm sticking with Diptrace for now.
>
> Easy-PC is about the same price as Eagle but is much easier to use. It is
> also fully Windows-based.
>
> Leon
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>> Royce P wrote:
>> I don't know for a fact, but it sure feels
>> like most PCB-CAD programs are trying to
>> adhere to some UI standard that dates back
>> to DOS or even eariler. I find them quite
>> alien.

> ST wrote:
> Some do, like eagle, that's why i didn't get
> on with it.

On 9/6/06, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:
>
> I love diptrace, I did this with it....
>
> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/tinabriddon/bday/
>
> Lez
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
> But seriously guys - the UI is pretty unimportant
> isn't it ? It's like saying a honda CB250 is a
> better family car than a volvo becuase it comes
> in red.
> Isn't what the PCB SW does and doesn't do more
> important than the colour of the paint job ?

----- Original Message -----
From: derekhawkins
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 12:35 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: What is your favorite free PCB-CAD Designer


>I've also found that the board size limit of the free version only
>applies to the populated area. So really you can make the board as
>big as you want but your circuit can only take up a 100X80mm area.

Glad Eagle took this approach since it means one can use the program
for machine work without any limitations. Holes are not considered
circuit elements so any size drill templates for manual or CNC
drilling can be created. I'm CNC drilling the base of an aluminium
chassis below using Eagle CAD/CAM files;

http://www.pbase.com/eldata/image/46673176

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, <william.kroyer@...> wrote:
>






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> I use autotrax (protel now free one - not the
> new thing called autotrax) and it dates back
> to DOS itself.

> I LOVE the weird alien keystrokes and have been
> holding off getting new windows based SW
> becuase they all do weird things like CTRL+C
> for copy. Its just not as natural as
> B-D-B-C-Y.

> But then again - I thought WordStar editing
> keys where very useable.

> But seriously guys - the UI is pretty unimportant
> isn't it ? It's like saying a honda CB250 is a
> better family car than a volvo becuase it comes
> in red.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 11:03 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: What is your favorite free PCB-CAD Designer


>>> Royce P wrote:
>>> I don't know for a fact, but it sure feels
>>> like most PCB-CAD programs are trying to
>>> adhere to some UI standard that dates back
>>> to DOS or even eariler. I find them quite
>>> alien.
>
>> ST wrote:
>> Some do, like eagle, that's why i didn't get
>> on with it.
>
> I use autotrax (protel now free one - not the
> new thing called autotrax) and it dates back
> to DOS itself.
>
> I LOVE the weird alien keystrokes and have been
> holding off getting new windows based SW
> becuase they all do weird things like CTRL+C
> for copy. Its just not as natural as
> B-D-B-C-Y.
>
> But then again - I thought WordStar editing
> keys where very useable.
>
> CTRL+K-B, CTRL+K-K, CTRL+K-C
>
> And word perfect 5.1 for DOS. It makes
> perfect sense to press SHIFT+F7-1 when you want
> to print.
>
> But seriously guys - the UI is pretty unimportant
> isn't it ? It's like saying a honda CB250 is a
> better family car than a volvo becuase it comes
> in red.
>
> Isn't what the PCB SW does and doesn't do more
> important than the colour of the paint job ?

How would you like to drive a car that had the brake and clutch pedal
positions swapped?

Leon

> I never thought to use Eagle for metal work but that's a great idea.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 9:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: What is your favorite free PCB-CAD Designer


> On Thu, 07 Sep 2006 00:46:58 +0200, <william.kroyer@...>
> wrote:
>
>> I never thought to use Eagle for metal work but that's a great idea.
>
>
> I also use target for everything that needs cad drawing. It has front
> panel/milling functions built-in so it's meant for that, but i use it for
> lots of other things. Of course it's not the ideal software for many of
> these things i use it for, but i have it already and know well how to use
> it, so i'm probably still faster than trying to use any other CAD software
> like pro engineer.
> And that signal length measuring feature is damn useful too if you want to
> make underfloor heating plans where the pipe runs must have a specific
> length each ;-)
>
> I'll have to make a few analog meter scales soon, previously i made that
> in paint shop pro, but i'll try in target this time. It has functions for
> scales with linear spacing, but i'm not sure how the nonlinear ones will
> work, i guess i'll scan the pencil-marked scale again and somehow work
> over that.

Could you calculate the non-linear scale positions, if you know the
function?

Leon

> > Andrew M Wrote:
> >
> > But seriously guys - the UI is pretty unimportant
> > isn't it ? It's like saying a honda CB250 is a
> > better family car than a volvo becuase it comes
> > in red.
> >
> > Isn't what the PCB SW does and doesn't do more
> > important than the colour of the paint job ?
>
> LeonH wrote:
>
> How would you like to drive a car that had the
> brake and clutch pedal positions swapped?

>
> Could you calculate the non-linear scale positions, if you know the
> function?
> Leon

----- Original Message -----
From: roycepipkins
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 7:15 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: What is your favorite free PCB-CAD Designer


PCB Wizard from New Wave Concepts. The library is a bit weak but the
UI is so friendly that its a snap to make a new library component.

PCB Wizard is the only PCB-CAD program I have ever seen that at all
adheres to Microsoft interface standards. The UI navigation skills you
have from MS Word, Excel, Visio etc., etc, etc. will transfer to this
program. It is obvious how to do most things if you use any sort of
common PC program.

To be sure, it is a hobbiest grade tool. No one would ever be able to
make a PC motherboard with it. But I find the UI more than makes ups
for all of its short comings. I have to re-learn Eagle *every time*
becuase I don't use it enough to remember the click patterns to
activate functions. The click patterns don't make enough sense to me
to do any thing but wrote memorization of them.

I don't know for a fact, but it sure feels like most PCB-CAD programs
are trying to adhere to some UI standard that dates back to DOS or
even eariler. I find them quite alien.

With PCB Wizard I can just sit down, work, and work quickly. I don't
have to fight it.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "jdizzlemynizzal"
<jdizzlemynizzal@...> wrote:
>
> The program database on this group is a bit small. Name yours, and why
> you considre it better than average.
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----
From: derekhawkins
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 6:35 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: What is your favorite free PCB-CAD Designer


>I've also found that the board size limit of the free version only
>applies to the populated area. So really you can make the board as
>big as you want but your circuit can only take up a 100X80mm area.

Glad Eagle took this approach since it means one can use the program
for machine work without any limitations. Holes are not considered
circuit elements so any size drill templates for manual or CNC
drilling can be created. I'm CNC drilling the base of an aluminium
chassis below using Eagle CAD/CAM files;

http://www.pbase.com/eldata/image/46673176

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, <william.kroyer@...> wrote:
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> I am looking at spending less
> than 10K on software, preferably less than 5K.
> If I can get something that is good in all other
> respects - but has a weird UI - I will be smiling.

>
> > > Andrew M Wrote:
> > >
> > > But seriously guys - the UI is pretty unimportant
> > > isn't it ? It's like saying a honda CB250 is a
> > > better family car than a volvo becuase it comes
> > > in red.
> > >
> > > Isn't what the PCB SW does and doesn't do more
> > > important than the colour of the paint job ?
> >
> > LeonH wrote:
> >
> > How would you like to drive a car that had the
> > brake and clutch pedal positions swapped?
>
> It would suck a LOT for the first few hours.
>
> And I would not do it on public roads till I was
> used to it.
>
> But if having the clutch and brake the other
> way around meant I could get 2 liters / 1000 km,
> 200,000 Km service intervals and it had a post
> mix bundy and cola machine within reach of the
> drivers seat - I would be there.
>
> I have ridden motorbikes with the controls
> reversed and never been spooked by it too much.
> Anyone that would have problems with trivial
> details like that should probably reconsider
> a career in a childhood daycare center.

>
> This is not a dig a anyone, I respect Leon and
> his opinions a lot. I also would probably love
> Pulsonix. But I am looking at spending less
> than 10K on software, preferably less than 5K.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 10:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: What is your favorite free PCB-CAD Designer


> On Thu, 07 Sep 2006 10:50:50 +0200, Andrew <andrewm1973@...>
> wrote:
>
>> I am looking at spending less
>> than 10K on software, preferably less than 5K.
>> If I can get something that is good in all other
>> respects - but has a weird UI - I will be smiling.
>
> The danger is if the UI is crap the programmer has messed it up, and he
> has probably messed up lotsa other things too.
> Or it is some old thing carried over from DOS times that doesn't really
> interest me much if i'm going to buy new software.
>
> I really don't think it's a price issue. You can find good and bad UIs in
> any price range.
>
> The thing to do is try out all programs that you think may be an option
> for you, including those with bad UI if you don't mind that.

They bought Eagle where I used to work, I'd used my own copy of Pulsonix
until then. I tried to use it for a design but found that it was taking me
far longer than the same job would take with Pulsonix, and the additional
keystrokes and mouse clicks were giving me RSI. It also had a nasty bug. I
refused to use it and had a big row with management - they backed down and
let me use Pulsonix. Another engineer there was very familiar with Eagle,
they bought it on his recommendation and because it was cheap. He once spent
two weeks doing a PCB that I could have done in under a day with Pulsonix!
His two weeks work would have paid for a Pulsonix seat. Another engineer
there has always refused to use Eagle and uses an old copy of Proteus, which
isn't much better but he likes it.

Leon

> > Andrewm Wrote:
> >
> > I am looking at spending less
> > than 10K on software, preferably less than 5K.
> > If I can get something that is good in all other
> > respects - but has a weird UI - I will be smiling.

> ST wrote:
>
> The danger is if the UI is crap the programmer has
> messed it up, and he has probably messed up lotsa
> other things too.

> Or it is some old thing carried over from DOS times
> that doesn't really interest me much if i'm going
> to buy new software.

> I really don't think it's a price issue. You can
> find good and bad UIs in any price range.

> The thing to do is try out all programs that you
> think may be an option for you, including those
> with bad UI if you don't mind that.

> > AndrewM wrote:
> > I also would probably love
> > Pulsonix. But I am looking at spending less
> > than 10K on software, preferably less than 5K.

> Leon wrote:
> Pulsonix starts at a lot less than that - £1250
> for 1000 pins. Easy-PC is about the same price
> as Eagle.

>> <Snip lots about UIs from many parties>

> Leon wrote:
>
> They bought Eagle where I used to work, I'd used
> my own copy of Pulsonix until then. I tried to
> use it for a design but found that it was taking
> me far longer than the same job would take with
> Pulsonix, and the additional keystrokes and mouse
> clicks were giving me RSI. It also had a nasty
> bug. I refused to use it and had a big row with
> management - they backed down and let me use
> Pulsonix.

> Another engineer there was very familiar with
> Eagle, they bought it on his recommendation and
> because it was cheap. He once spent two weeks
> doing a PCB that I could have done in under a
> day with Pulsonix!

> His two weeks work would have paid for a
> Pulsonix seat. Another engineer there has always
> refused to use Eagle and uses an old copy of
> Proteus, which isn't much better but he likes it.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Sander Pool <sander@...> wrote:

> I looked at PCB Wizard but couldn't find pricing. I probably didn't
look
> hard enough but I expect that crucial bit of info readily available.
> Since the free demo is severely crippled I doubt there is a functional
> free version available. Pulsonix is so horrendously expensive I doubt
> any hobbyist would buy it for home use. It certainly isn't free like
the
> original poster asked about.
>
>
>
> Sander
>

>
> I think this is a theological argument about UIs -
> So it may be a completly non-standard for windows
> and you can't realy used the words "messed up"
> The UI might be perfect and just the way [s]he likes
> it :D

>
> I used to work with EdWIN ver 6.?? but was rather disappointed when

>
> I use S-plan today and I am not happy with that kind of programs.

>
> /Magnus
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: roycepipkins
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 7:15 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: What is your favorite free PCB-CAD

>
>
> PCB Wizard from New Wave Concepts. The library is a bit weak but

> UI is so friendly that its a snap to make a new library component.
>
> PCB Wizard is the only PCB-CAD program I have ever seen that at

> adheres to Microsoft interface standards. The UI navigation

> have from MS Word, Excel, Visio etc., etc, etc. will transfer to

> program. It is obvious how to do most things if you use any sort

> common PC program.
>
> To be sure, it is a hobbiest grade tool. No one would ever be

> make a PC motherboard with it. But I find the UI more than makes

> for all of its short comings. I have to re-learn Eagle *every

> becuase I don't use it enough to remember the click patterns to
> activate functions. The click patterns don't make enough sense to

> to do any thing but wrote memorization of them.
>
> I don't know for a fact, but it sure feels like most PCB-CAD

> are trying to adhere to some UI standard that dates back to DOS or
> even eariler. I find them quite alien.
>
> With PCB Wizard I can just sit down, work, and work quickly. I

> have to fight it.
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "jdizzlemynizzal"
> <jdizzlemynizzal@> wrote:
> >
> > The program database on this group is a bit small. Name yours,

> > you considre it better than average.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 10:59 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: What is your favorite free PCB-CAD Designer


> > AndrewM wrote:
> > I also would probably love
> > Pulsonix. But I am looking at spending less
> > than 10K on software, preferably less than 5K.

> Leon wrote:
> Pulsonix starts at a lot less than that - £1250
> for 1000 pins. Easy-PC is about the same price
> as Eagle.

The reason I feel I need to ditch my beloved Auto-
trax is that I am probably soon going to be having
to work with 4 or 6 layers and many 1000's of pins.

I had a look at the pulsonix pricing. When you
convert from pounds to aussie dollars for the set
of features that would be nice. It ended up just
a tad more expensive than my 1000cc japanese
motorbike (with clutch left and brake right).

What bike do you have? I had a long break from owning bikes so the
transition from British to Jap layout wasn't too traumatic. I still got it
wrong sometimes. At 64 I'm a bit old to be riding a quick bike like the
SV1000, especially at the speeds I ride it at.

Have a look at my Pulsonix Yahoo group:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PulsonixUG/

and try the demo. They will give you a full 20 day license if you ask them
nicely. They are about to release a very large parts library containing most
of the current MCUs, FPGAs, etc.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
leon.heller@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller










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----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 11:08 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Eagle smells and i dont like it - was - Re: What is
your favorite free PCB-CAD


>>> <Snip lots about UIs from many parties>
>
>> Leon wrote:
>>
>> They bought Eagle where I used to work, I'd used
>> my own copy of Pulsonix until then. I tried to
>> use it for a design but found that it was taking
>> me far longer than the same job would take with
>> Pulsonix, and the additional keystrokes and mouse
>> clicks were giving me RSI. It also had a nasty
>> bug. I refused to use it and had a big row with
>> management - they backed down and let me use
>> Pulsonix.
>
> Now - A "NASTY BUG" would be something far more
> intersting to know about than "it has funny keys"

This was a few years ago, it's probably been fixed. I didn't get any
response from Cadsoft about it.

>
>> Another engineer there was very familiar with
>> Eagle, they bought it on his recommendation and
>> because it was cheap. He once spent two weeks
>> doing a PCB that I could have done in under a
>> day with Pulsonix!
>
> Was the "he took a week with eagle" part due to
> eagle or due to him ? Would he have also taken
> 4.7 days if HE was using pulsonix ?

The two weeks was largely down to Eagle, he'd been using it for years. He
spent a lot of that time getting a an awkward copper pour shape for a
switching regulator exactly right, IIRC.

>
> Weeks worth of productivity is worth $. So if
> there is a realy reason eagle is much slower I
> would like to hear about it.
>

I found that Eagle needed roughly twice the number of keystrokes and mouse
operations as Pulsonix, for the same design. Plus, I just couldn't get used
to the user interface. Pulsonix can import Eagle designs and libraries,
which can be quite useful. I once used that facility to check a friend's
Eagle PCB design that was giving him problems.

Leon

Leon

Leon

>Leon wrote:
>
> What bike do you have?

> I had a long break from owning bikes so the
> transition from British to Jap layout wasn't
> too traumatic. I still got it wrong
> sometimes.
> At 64 I'm a bit old to be riding a quick bike
> like the SV1000, especially at the speeds I
> ride it at.

> Have a look at my Pulsonix Yahoo group:
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/PulsonixUG/
> and try the demo. They will give you a full
> 20 day license if you ask them nicely. They
> are about to release a very large parts library
> containing most of the current MCUs, FPGAs,
> etc.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 12:48 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Vote - Should I sell my bike to buy a PCB-CAD tool
:D


> >Leon wrote:
>>
>> What bike do you have?
>
> Honda VTR1000F

Similar to the SV1000 - V-twin and loads of torque! I find it difficult to
keep mine at the 70 mph speed limit, I usually cruise at 110-120 mph on
motorways. I do keep an eye open for the fuzz, of course, and haven't been
caught yet.

Leon

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...
> <mailto:andrewm1973%40hotmail.com>>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>>
> Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 12:48 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Vote - Should I sell my bike to buy a PCB-CAD
> tool
> :D
>
> > >Leon wrote:
> >>
> >> What bike do you have?
> >
> > Honda VTR1000F
>
> Similar to the SV1000 - V-twin and loads of torque! I find it
> difficult to
> keep mine at the 70 mph speed limit, I usually cruise at 110-120 mph on
> motorways. I do keep an eye open for the fuzz, of course, and haven't
> been
> caught yet.
>
> Leon
>
>

> Leon wrote:
> Similar to the SV1000 - V-twin and loads
> of torque!

> I find it difficult to keep
> mine at the 70 mph speed limit, I usually
> cruise at 110-120 mph on motorways.

> I do
> keep an eye open for the fuzz, of course,
> and haven't been caught yet.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 10:34 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Bad Jokes and Bikes - was - Vote - was - 10K cad -
was - Free CAD


>> Leon wrote:
>> Similar to the SV1000 - V-twin and loads
>> of torque!
>
> Made any PCBs for custom add ons to your
> bike? My only mod so far is an automatic
> garage door opener. Pretty lame realy.

There are plenty of electronic goodies available for it anyway, like a
digital gear indicator, LED indicators, speedo corrector, computer interface
for the ECU (to remap it), and so on. I'd thought of making my own speedo
corrector - it goes between the sensor and the instrument cluster.

>
>> I find it difficult to keep
>> mine at the 70 mph speed limit, I usually
>> cruise at 110-120 mph on motorways.
>
> Speed limit is 100K out here. There are
> too many cameras, lasers and radars on all
> the nice straight roads to ever do much
> more.

Some counties have lots of them, some have very few. Then there are the
linked systems that do number plate recognition and calculate average speed.
They don't work for bikes (yet) because they face the front of the vehicle.
I have heard of someone with a fast bike who had a rotating number plate,
when he reached the speed limit it automatically displayed a false number.

>
> The only option of you want to speed is to
> do it on suburban streets late at night in
> the rain.
>
>> I do
>> keep an eye open for the fuzz, of course,
>> and haven't been caught yet.
>
> Fuzz - thats a funny word you english folk
> use for police. But does remind me of that
> old joke.

I looked it up, it came from the USA originally.

>
> Two working girls (optionaly a blonde and
> brunette) where in the watch house after
> being picked up for soliciting. One (the
> optionaly brunette one) turns to the other
> and says "Don't you hate it when you get
> caught by the fuzz". The other (optionaly
> blonde) replies "That never happens to me
> I always shave it off".

8-)

Leon

> I have heard of someone with a fast bike who had a rotating number plate,
> when he reached the speed limit it automatically displayed a false
> number.

> Leon wrote:

> <snip UI and # of keystrokes>
>
> Pulsonix can import Eagle designs and libraries,
> which can be quite useful. I once used that
> facility to check a friend's Eagle PCB design
> that was giving him problems.
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 2:09 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Eagle smells and i dont like it - was - Re: What is
your favorite free PCB-CAD


>> Leon wrote:
>
>> <snip UI and # of keystrokes>
>>
>> Pulsonix can import Eagle designs and libraries,
>> which can be quite useful. I once used that
>> facility to check a friend's Eagle PCB design
>> that was giving him problems.
>>
>
> Can Pulsonix save to a common format that other
> packages can read though ?
>
> Open formats is pretty pretty close to the top
> on my selection criteria.

It will export netlists for:
a.. Accel PCB
b.. PADS PCB
c.. Zuken Rinf (Cadstar and Visula)
d.. P-CAD PCB
e.. OrCAD II DOS
f.. Viewdraw
and there is a 'Part Mapper'. Orcad seems to use EDIF, which is the closest
thing to a common format. The report writer can be used for user-defined
netlists.

Leon

> Leon wrote:
>
> It will export netlists for:
> a.. Accel PCB
> b.. PADS PCB
> c.. Zuken Rinf (Cadstar and Visula)
> d.. P-CAD PCB
> e.. OrCAD II DOS
> f.. Viewdraw
> and there is a 'Part Mapper'. Orcad seems to
> use EDIF, which is the closest thing to a
> common format. The report writer can be used
> for user-defined netlists.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 6:37 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Eagle smells and i dont like it - was - Re: What is
your favorite free PCB-CAD


>> Leon wrote:
>>
>> It will export netlists for:
>> a.. Accel PCB
>> b.. PADS PCB
>> c.. Zuken Rinf (Cadstar and Visula)
>> d.. P-CAD PCB
>> e.. OrCAD II DOS
>> f.. Viewdraw
>> and there is a 'Part Mapper'. Orcad seems to
>> use EDIF, which is the closest thing to a
>> common format. The report writer can be used
>> for user-defined netlists.
>
> How about after the PCB is drawn ? Eagle
> seems to have the ability to import and export
> documented ascii files that can describe a
> PCB and can also I/O protel PCB.

It obviouisly can, because it can be used with other autorouters like
Specctra. It would be best to ask Pulsonix about it.

>
> gEDA and KirCad are lacking - but have an
> openness that is well above the others.
>
> I have looked at pulsonix enough to almost
> think the 10K+ price could be worth it for
> productivity. But any gain made there may
> be lost by not being able to share.
>
> Eagle may be crap. But it is common crap
> is how I am still feeling.

I wouldn't say that it is crap, it's just difficult to use. It will usually
get the job done, albeit with a lot of difficulty. I don't think that anyone
is using it for complex multi-layer boards.

>
> I WILL still download the demo of pulsonix
> and give it a try. But I think the closed
> format gives it a cross against its name.
> (I could be wrong about the closed format
> I just could not find any details)

Just email Pulsonix with any questions: support@...

Leon

> > > I also would probably love
> > > Pulsonix. But I am looking at spending less
> > > than 10K on software, preferably less than 5K.
>...
> The reason I feel I need to ditch my beloved Auto-
> trax is that I am probably soon going to be having
> to work with 4 or 6 layers and many 1000's of pins.
>

>doesn't sound [Homebrew_PCBs] to me...

>

>
> --- Leon Heller <leon.heller@...> wrote:
> ...
> > > > I also would probably love
> > > > Pulsonix. But I am looking at spending less
> > > > than 10K on software, preferably less than 5K.
> >...
> > The reason I feel I need to ditch my beloved Auto-
> > trax is that I am probably soon going to be having
> > to work with 4 or 6 layers and many 1000's of pins.
> >
>
> doesn't sound [Homebrew_PCBs] to me...

>
>> doesn't sound [Homebrew_PCBs] to me...
> I don't get it. The list has no limit on complexity of boards.

>I mean any of those aspects are on
>topic for the list.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@...> wrote:
>

>Len

>I mean any of those aspects are on
>topic for the list.

>

> > > > Me wrote:
> > > > I also would probably love
> > > > Pulsonix. But I am looking at spending less
> > > > than 10K on software, preferably less than 5K.

> > >...

> > Me also wrote:
> > The reason I feel I need to ditch my beloved Auto-
> > trax is that I am probably soon going to be having
> > to work with 4 or 6 layers and many 1000's of pins.

> Herbert wrote:
> doesn't sound [Homebrew_PCBs] to me...

> I don't get it. The list has no limit on complexity of boards.
>
> "Designing, making, etching, soldering, printed circuit boards yourself.

> home -> kitchen / garage / basement / backyard...

> Herbert wrote:
>
> sure, but does a 6 layer board fit into a
> "homebrew" concept?

> designing a board at home and then sending
> it to a million dollar facility for
> manufacture is not my idea of homebrew!

> home -> kitchen/garage/basement/backyard...

> BTW, I would love to know how to 'homebrew'
> a >2 layer board, well, even I would be
> very happy to just know how to make a
> simple ordinary double sided with vias
> without a piece of wire in them... (this
> was my very first post to this list :-)
> but the answer still eludes me)

>I hope to have multi layer PTH happening in my home
>some time soon :D

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...> wrote:
>

> > Me wrote:
> >I hope to have multi layer PTH happening in my home
> >some time soon :D
>
> That's before or after the laser plotter and the
> 30,000 RPM brushless spindle?

>
> Mzing - who has his set up shown here
> http://www.myhome.ch/mzingg/pcbstuff/tps/
> And finaly Roel - who I beleive also does
> more than two layers.
> No offence if I left anyone else out.

>
> That's before or after the laser plotter and the 30,000 RPM brushless
> spindle?

>The CNC drill is a MUST. It is the only
>sensible way to drill holes before etching.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...> wrote:
>

> > Me wrote:
> > The CNC drill is a MUST. It is the only
> > sensible way to drill holes before etching.
>

> Derek with the nice photos wrote:
> It's the only sensible way to drill holes IMO.
> But drilling before etching makes no sense to
> me.

> CNC drilling seemed to have been high on
> wish lists in the group until the resident
> machinist declared that any backlash greater
> than .001" (or some similar nonsense from his
> textbook) just wasn't going to cut it.
> Surprisingly, he seems to still drill by hand.

> Derek with the nice photos wrote:

> Drilling before etching is what you HAVE to do
> if you want through plated holes or multi layer.

> I reckon I woudl be happy with one thou
> backlash. And if I was not happy with it I
> reckon I would just always approch a hole from
> the same direction.

> CNC is a must I feel fot PTH.

>

> > CNC drilling seemed to have been high on wish lists in the
> group until
> > the resident machinist declared that any backlash greater
> than .001"
> > (or some similar nonsense from his
> > textbook) just wasn't going to cut it.
> > Surprisingly, he seems to still drill by hand.
>
> I reckon I woudl be happy with one thou
> backlash. And if I was not happy with it I reckon I would
> just always approch a hole from the same direction.
>
> CNC is a must I feel fot PTH. If you don't have CNC you have
> to do and extra photo development at the start to act as
> guide to drill by.

> > Me wrote:
> > I reckon I woudl be happy with one thou
> > backlash. And if I was not happy with it I
> > reckon I would just always approch a hole from
> > the same direction.

> Derek wrote:
> Even the free CNC software packages come with
> backlash compensation built in. Doesn't help
> much for some milling operations but works
> fine for drilling.

> > CNC is a must I feel fot PTH.
>
> A word of advice...Send out any boards you're
> selling...If your clients can't wait or afford
> it then you're in the wrong business.

> It's the only sensible way to drill holes IMO. But drilling before
> etching makes no sense to me. CNC drilling seemed to have been high on
> wish lists in the group until the resident machinist declared that any
> backlash greater than .001" (or some similar nonsense from his
> textbook) just wasn't going to cut it. Surprisingly, he seems to still
> drill by hand.

>The secret is to ensure that you always approach the location from
>the same side of the backlash.

>

On 9/9/06, derekhawkins <eldata@...> wrote:
> >The secret is to ensure that you always approach the location from
> >the same side of the backlash.
>
> How do you do that for both X and Y axes?

Assume you're starting at the origin (bottom left).

Advance Y to the hole with the lowest Y value.
Advance X to the hole. You can continue advancing X for values with the same Y.
Advance to the next Y value. If you are to the right of the lowest X
value, you need to backup past the X value by more than the backlash
amount and then advance to the X.

Another way of looking at it on a move-by-move basis

if desired-Y < current-Y
move to desired-Y minus largest Y-backlash amount
move to desired-Y

if desired-X < current-X
move to desired-X minus largest X-backlash amount
move to desired-X

Using the above guarantees that you're always approaching each hole
from the same side of the backlash.

If you figure that your backlash was 0.008, then I'd probably use a
largest backlash amount of 0.020 to be safe.

Many CNC programs support backlash compensation, which requires
entering a faily accurate backlash amount. The accurate backlash
amount is only needed for milling. For drilling, you can use a larger
value than the actual backlash.

--
Dave Hylands
Vancouver, BC, Canada
http://www.DaveHylands.com/

>Using the above guarantees that you're always approaching each hole
>from the same side of the backlash.

>

> Thought you had some means that didn't
> utilize backlash compensation. You can
> get zero backlash on only one axis without
> compensation during CNC drilling by
> optimizing the Excellon output for that
> axis. The other has to be compensated.

>Parse the g-code so that before every drill
>it retreats a little bit in both X and Y.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...> wrote:
>

>>>Me wrote:
>>>The CNC drill is a MUST. It is the only
>>>sensible way to drill holes before etching.
>>
>
>>Derek with the nice photos wrote:
>>It's the only sensible way to drill holes IMO.
>>But drilling before etching makes no sense to
>>me.
>
>
> Drilling before etching is what you HAVE to do
> if you want through plated holes or multi layer.
>
> Drill holes in blank copper
> activate the holewall
> Plate the holes through
> Apply the photoresist
> Develop
> Etch
> strip
>
>
>>CNC drilling seemed to have been high on
>>wish lists in the group until the resident
>>machinist declared that any backlash greater
>>than .001" (or some similar nonsense from his
>>textbook) just wasn't going to cut it.
>>Surprisingly, he seems to still drill by hand.
>
>
> I reckon I woudl be happy with one thou
> backlash. And if I was not happy with it I
> reckon I would just always approch a hole from
> the same direction.
>
> CNC is a must I feel fot PTH. If you don't
> have CNC you have to do and extra photo
> development at the start to act as guide to
> drill by.
>

> Adam wrote:
>
> I cannot comprehend the justification for
> a hobbyist owning a dedicated CNC PCB drill
> who, on average, makes no more than 1
> PCB/fortnight.

> A
> well built hand drill press does the job.
> And, especially since everything is SMD
> (or soon will be), the only things left to
> drill are connectors, power components, and
> of course vias.

>But I still don't
>like drilling hundreds of holes.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...> wrote:
>

>>Adam wrote:
>>
>>I cannot comprehend the justification for
>>a hobbyist owning a dedicated CNC PCB drill
>>who, on average, makes no more than 1
>>PCB/fortnight.
>
>
> The fun of making it yourself is one easy
> to comprehend justification.
>
> Having to get a board with several hundred
> vias finished in a shorter period of time than
> you could get a professional house to start
> it.
>
> Having a general interest in CNC anyways (from
> doing your Seig X3 mill all the way down to
> making CNC music box roll cutters and CNC
> balsa wood planners)
>
>
>>A
>>well built hand drill press does the job.
>>And, especially since everything is SMD
>>(or soon will be), the only things left to
>>drill are connectors, power components, and
>>of course vias.
>
>
> I've got one of the Sakai drill presses which
> I think is pretty nice. But I still don't
> like drilling hundreds of holes.
>
> And as they always say. Why buy something
> for $10 when you can make it yourself for
> only $100
>
> :D
>

>I'm currently building a spray etcher, and I know that the
>improvement in etch quality and time I'm going to save isn't that
>significant

>

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Adam Seychell <a_seychell@...>
> wrote:
>>I'm currently building a spray etcher, and I know that the
>>improvement in etch quality and time I'm going to save isn't that
>>significant
>
> Suppose you won first prize in a homebrew PCB making contest and the
> prize was either a CNC drill setup or a spray etcher, which would you
> choose assuming you had neither already and reselling the prize wasn't
> an option?

>> Adam wrote
>> I'm currently building a spray etcher, and
>> I know that the improvement in etch quality
>> and time I'm going to save isn't that
>> significant

> DerekH wrotre:
> Suppose you won first prize in a homebrew
> PCB making contest and the prize was either
> a CNC drill setup or a spray etcher, which
> would you choose assuming you had neither
> already and reselling the prize wasn't an
> option?

>I can make a milling machine any old time. The main challenge for
>that is decent control software.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Russell Shaw <rjshaw@...> wrote:
>

>Assuming it wasn't a loaded question - could
>we complicate it further by including

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...> wrote:
>

>>I can make a milling machine any old time. The main challenge for
>>that is decent control software.
>
> It's quite obvious where your head is.

> The purpose of my question was
> to zero in on which of the two projects would result in reduced
> recurrent expenditure in terms of physical resources and time.

>Milling machines are crap for removing copper.

>I routinely do 200-hole pcbs with a hand drill press.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Russell Shaw <rjshaw@...> wrote:
>

> > Andrewm wrote:
> >Assuming it wasn't a loaded question - could
> >we complicate it further by including

> Derek wrote:
> Priorities all mixed up just like the rest.
> Exposure box should be #1. Also, if you're
> using laser artwork then forget UV, use
> daylight tubes. The box will double as a
> normal light box for pinhole correction. You
> can also use it as a compact light source for
> indoor macro shots, shoot raw and adjust
> white balance afterwards if necessary.

> > > Andrewm wrote:

> of me here is just a class above my little
> HP4000 at home.

> > Andrewm wrote:
> > The laser printer in front
> > of me here is just a class above my little
> > HP4000 at home.

> JC (John Craddock not Jesus Christ) wrote:
> OK I'll bite! What model is it?
> JC

> I would quite happily put up the laser I
> use in a UV opacity competition against just
> about any injket.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...> wrote:
>

>It puts down a good thick layer of black
>plastic when I print onto vellum.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...> wrote:
>

>Russell Wrote:
> >Milling machines are crap for removing copper.
>
> Are we on the same page? I was suggesting that a CNC drilling setup
> had more practical value to the PCB homebrewer than a spray etching
> setup. Wasn't suggesting PCB milling over conventional etching. Both
> CNC drilling and spray etching projects were considered fanatical
> pursuits by the starter of this thread.
>
> >I routinely do 200-hole pcbs with a hand drill press.

> > Andrewm wrote:
> > I would quite happily put up the laser I
> > use in a UV opacity competition against just
> > about any injket.
>
> Haah-hah (with apologies to Nelson Munz).
> You're in for another disappointment when
> you start using laser artwork for CNC work.
> Dimensional accuracy sucks big time.

>I am not planing on doing CNC till I have the
>laser plotter running.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...> wrote:
>

> > Andrewm Wrote:
> > It puts down a good thick layer of black
> > plastic when I print onto vellum.

> Derek wrote:
> Vellum is translucent not transparent. The
> more opaque the media the greater the
> overall opacity. What about transparencies?

> Thought we were going apples one on one and
> now you pull an orange from your
> fanny. LOL!

>>Milling machines are crap for removing copper.
>
> Are we on the same page? I was suggesting that a CNC drilling setup
> had more practical value to the PCB homebrewer than a spray etching
> setup. Wasn't suggesting PCB milling over conventional etching. Both
> CNC drilling and spray etching projects were considered fanatical
> pursuits by the starter of this thread.
>
>>I routinely do 200-hole pcbs with a hand drill press.
>
> And since this only takes 5 or so minutes it's the last thing on your
> process improvement list. Etching on the other hand takes hours,
> requires a certain amount of skill and concentration so a spray etcher
> is high on your process improvement list. Whatever floats your boat.

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "derekhawkins" <eldata@...> wrote:
>
>>Russell Wrote:
>>
>>>Milling machines are crap for removing copper.
>>
>>Are we on the same page? I was suggesting that a CNC drilling setup
>>had more practical value to the PCB homebrewer than a spray etching
>>setup. Wasn't suggesting PCB milling over conventional etching. Both
>>CNC drilling and spray etching projects were considered fanatical
>>pursuits by the starter of this thread.
>>
>>>I routinely do 200-hole pcbs with a hand drill press.
>
> OK, it's settled, I get the CNC drilling machine, 'cause Russell
> doesn't want it!