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Inkjet printing to copper - finally the ink resists! (like crazy!)

Inkjet printing to copper - finally the ink resists! (like crazy!)

2006-08-01 by Stefan Trethan

Hi,

It seems i finally cracked it! Made PCBs with no more through-etching and
ink so tough not even acetone can take it off!

I spent a few hours cooking PCBs today. The curing was definitely my
problem.
Had to make a more scientific mechanism to carry out some experiments.
Basically an old electric hot plate with a aluminum plate on top and a
temperature meter attached. This way i could adjust the temperature within
+-10C and more evenly than with the hot air gun or the stove.

Then i printed many test PCBs and heated them to different temperatures,
from desiccation to delamination. It turns out that around 230C is the
sweet spot. keep that for several minutes (at least 3 i'd say for now but
more research needed). This incidentally is exactly the point where the
copper will start to go from just minimal yellowish oxidation to a purple
one (This is probably what Volkan is using to judge the temperature). It
is well away from damaging the PCB.


If you are much below or above this temperature the ink will not resist so
well. Round about 225C the ink starts to change somehow and can no longer
be cleaned off with acetone.

Anyway, that's what i can tell you today: cure on a 230C hot metal plate,
+-10C, for about 4 minutes and it will work.

I will make photos of the PCBs tomorrow, i need daylight my camera does
not make useable flash photographs.

There is definitely much more to be discovered here, but i finally found
repeatable parameters that so far work every time, all the time. There may
be other or even better ways to do this, but i finally have something that
works for me, and that's great!!

James, let me know what exactly would be required to qualify for the $50
prize ;-)

Below a writeup i started a few days ago while waiting for a PCB to etch,
mainly concerning the work on the printer. I want to put this on
<http://dipcb.schtuff.com/>, because i think a wiki might be a good way to
help further development of this process. If we write a wiki together it
will allow newcomers to get up to speed (and help us to remember).
Suggestions for that welcome.

Any my thanks again to Volkan!


Printer Modification:

*)Stripping down
First all plastic is removed around the C84 that is not required for
printing. This is the side caps, the main body, and some smaller loose
bits. At this point the printer will still print normally.

*)Preparation
make sure the printer is in good working order, and the parking station is
clean. With all used C84s you will find a badly clogged parking
station/vacuum mechanism that MUST be cleaned. Do a nozzle check to make
sure the head is working on all nozzles. I opted to disable the vacuum
mechanism by removing the small gear on the rough transport roller and
instead manually provide vacuum with a syringe. You can leave the pump
engaged if you do not mind unnecessary cleaning.
This is also the best point to install spongeless carts with auto-reset
chips and test them on paper. Fill yellow MSIPRO ink in the black cart
(you may also use the yellow cart the C84 can not tell which cart is where
as long as all are present). Add a few drops of black mispro ink for
better visibility.

*)Rear Paper path
The paper feeder is removed from the back, taking out the optical paper
sensor.
This sensor is glued to the side of the paper slot (in the metal chassis),
so that the material passing through here will activate it.

*)Front Paper Path
Remove the pizza wheels from the output. You may also remove the black
plastic paper guide and that ink sponge at the front. Rip out the whole
spiel, you only need to keep that greased sheetmetal rail where the head
rides on. It is easier to leave the shaft with the rubber output rollers
in place since it carries a pulley for the belt. It has no further
function and you could remove it if you tension the belt some other way.
Now a flat sheet will pass through the printer.

*)Central Transport Roller
Remove the middle pressure roller assy. Now a small PCB will fit through
the middle. If you cut it in half and replace the outer pressure rollers
with the half sections you get even larger PCBs through. You must hold the
springs up with something like a strip of metal or PCB to make up for the
cut-away half. If one needs full with even narrower wheels could be
attached at the very outside, but usually it will not be needed.
If you go for a rail under the carrier for 2-sided PCB alignment you need
to take out the rough transport roller and grind it down in the middle to
allow this rail to pass. Works well with a bench grinder. Don't grind it
too thin you need some strength.

*)Head Height
To allow for the increased media thickness we must adjust the head height.
The easiest method i found is to cut through the chassis just over the
paper gap. You could cut exactly through the paper gap, but that would
lift the pressure rollers as well and require a change there. The chassis
can be cut in place with nibbler pliers.
On the left (stepper/belt) side of the printer you need to add a small
piece of sheetmetal (ideally an angle piece around the rear edge) that
holds the cut-off part at about 3mm higher than it originally was. On the
right (head) side you can simply put nuts or washers under the two
mounting screws (and use longer screws) to achieve the same increase in
head height.
You also need to raise the head parking station, lift up the plastic over
the screw mount on the inside and again use a piece of plastic or
sheetmetal with screws to raise it on the outside. There was a snap-in
mechanism originally not allowing you to simply put something under a
screw. The inside in not held as firmly now, but that's fine and you could
use a longer screw and some strip of metal to clamp it down if you really
like.
Lastly you need to raise the front head rail by the same amount. Simply
put spacers (nuts) under where the screws attach the piece and use longer
screws.

*)Carrier
You need to make a carrier for your PCBs, any rigid material like
cardboard will work. It should not be too heavy. I used a sheet of formica
and glued thin cardboard to the bottom for traction (probably not needed).
If you want a rail for alignment you can glue a piece of aluminum to the
carrier. It must be low in height to fit in the gap in the transport
roller, but high enough to provide alignment between plastic guiderails.
If you do not need the rail a simple piece of cardboard will do.
The C84 will expect a short delay between the start of the feeding
mechanism and activation of the paper switch, so you need to make a cutout
of (edit) on the carrier to faciliate this delay. That is with the sensor
right at the metal, if you place it further outward you need a longer
cutout. The C84 is quite tolerant, a tolerance range of about +-4cm or so
was found to work. (Procedure for finding the valid range upon request if
you can't work it out yourself).

*)2-sided Alignment
If you need to align printing on the second side of the PCB it would be
good to be able to print in the same spot each time. To ensure that you
can put a rail on the underside of the carrier which rides between plastic
guides on both the input and output of the printer. To mount these plastic
guides it is easier to cut out the plastic bottom of the printer to allow
for wooden mounting blocks. I have not yet installed this fully as aligned
doublesided printing is not a priority.

Printing:

*)PCB Preparation
Sand the PCB with 600 or 1000 grit paper so that he surface appears
scratched everywhere. You may also use a abrasive plastic pad sold for
cleaning copper pipes before soldering. Then wipe with acetone, twice, the
first pass should take away the copper dust. The PCB must be grease free
now and stay that way.

*)Printing
To print you must insert the carrier manually into the printer. Turn the
printer on, and wait until it has completed it's dance. Now feed the edge
of the carrier into the printer so that it jsut protrudes a few mm from
the traction/pressure rollers. Make sure it is straight so it will not run
against an edge when the printer feeds.
Now rint the artwork on your carrier to find the right position (stick
some tape or adhesive backed plastic foil on it or you may end up with
permanent marking of the carrier). You can use low resolution for this
print since you only need to know where it will end up. If you use the
fastest draft setting watch out, the printer virtually shoots it through.
Now place the PCB over this position and stick it down with tape. You may
delay the acetone cleaning of the PCB until this point if you prefer.
Again feed the carrier and print the artwork.

*)Printer Settings
When printing a purely black test pattern i found the transparency setting
does not use any ink from the black cart at all.
The other settings use ink in varying amounts, the most ink is used for
matte paper and the least for glossy or durabright setting. You need Photo
or Best Photo resolution. The "fast" setting, which prints in both
directions of travel, produces better results for me. No edge smoothing
needed.


*)Curing
-- see top of message --


*)Etching
I suspected Ferric chloride is less agressive to the ink than CuCl, so i
set up a test. I cut a test PCB in half after curing to get identical
samples, and put one in CuCl and one in ferric chloride. If anything the
ferric chloride showed more agressive under-etching.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Inkjet printing to copper - finally the ink resists! (like crazy!)

2006-08-01 by Myc Holmes

Nice piece of work, Stefan, getting the time / temprature curing curve. have
you tried it in your smt oven? Can't wait for the photos!

What kind of pcb material were you using? thickness and oz of copper?

Myc

On 8/1/06, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> It seems i finally cracked it! Made PCBs with no more through-etching and
> ink so tough not even acetone can take it off!
>
> I spent a few hours cooking PCBs today. The curing was definitely my
> problem.
> Had to make a more scientific mechanism to carry out some experiments.
> Basically an old electric hot plate with a aluminum plate on top and a
> temperature meter attached. This way i could adjust the temperature within
> +-10C and more evenly than with the hot air gun or the stove.
>
> Then i printed many test PCBs and heated them to different temperatures,
> from desiccation to delamination. It turns out that around 230C is the
> sweet spot. keep that for several minutes (at least 3 i'd say for now but
> more research needed). This incidentally is exactly the point where the
> copper will start to go from just minimal yellowish oxidation to a purple
> one (This is probably what Volkan is using to judge the temperature). It
> is well away from damaging the PCB.
>
>
> If you are much below or above this temperature the ink will not resist so
> well. Round about 225C the ink starts to change somehow and can no longer
> be cleaned off with acetone.
>
> Anyway, that's what i can tell you today: cure on a 230C hot metal plate,
> +-10C, for about 4 minutes and it will work.
>
> I will make photos of the PCBs tomorrow, i need daylight my camera does
> not make useable flash photographs.
>
> There is definitely much more to be discovered here, but i finally found
> repeatable parameters that so far work every time, all the time. There may
> be other or even better ways to do this, but i finally have something that
> works for me, and that's great!!
>
> James, let me know what exactly would be required to qualify for the $50
> prize ;-)
>
> Below a writeup i started a few days ago while waiting for a PCB to etch,
> mainly concerning the work on the printer. I want to put this on
> <http://dipcb.schtuff.com/>, because i think a wiki might be a good way to
> help further development of this process. If we write a wiki together it
> will allow newcomers to get up to speed (and help us to remember).
> Suggestions for that welcome.
>
> Any my thanks again to Volkan!
>
>
> Printer Modification:
>
> *)Stripping down
> First all plastic is removed around the C84 that is not required for
> printing. This is the side caps, the main body, and some smaller loose
> bits. At this point the printer will still print normally.
>
> *)Preparation
> make sure the printer is in good working order, and the parking station is
> clean. With all used C84s you will find a badly clogged parking
> station/vacuum mechanism that MUST be cleaned. Do a nozzle check to make
> sure the head is working on all nozzles. I opted to disable the vacuum
> mechanism by removing the small gear on the rough transport roller and
> instead manually provide vacuum with a syringe. You can leave the pump
> engaged if you do not mind unnecessary cleaning.
> This is also the best point to install spongeless carts with auto-reset
> chips and test them on paper. Fill yellow MSIPRO ink in the black cart
> (you may also use the yellow cart the C84 can not tell which cart is where
> as long as all are present). Add a few drops of black mispro ink for
> better visibility.
>
> *)Rear Paper path
> The paper feeder is removed from the back, taking out the optical paper
> sensor.
> This sensor is glued to the side of the paper slot (in the metal chassis),
> so that the material passing through here will activate it.
>
> *)Front Paper Path
> Remove the pizza wheels from the output. You may also remove the black
> plastic paper guide and that ink sponge at the front. Rip out the whole
> spiel, you only need to keep that greased sheetmetal rail where the head
> rides on. It is easier to leave the shaft with the rubber output rollers
> in place since it carries a pulley for the belt. It has no further
> function and you could remove it if you tension the belt some other way.
> Now a flat sheet will pass through the printer.
>
> *)Central Transport Roller
> Remove the middle pressure roller assy. Now a small PCB will fit through
> the middle. If you cut it in half and replace the outer pressure rollers
> with the half sections you get even larger PCBs through. You must hold the
> springs up with something like a strip of metal or PCB to make up for the
> cut-away half. If one needs full with even narrower wheels could be
> attached at the very outside, but usually it will not be needed.
> If you go for a rail under the carrier for 2-sided PCB alignment you need
> to take out the rough transport roller and grind it down in the middle to
> allow this rail to pass. Works well with a bench grinder. Don't grind it
> too thin you need some strength.
>
> *)Head Height
> To allow for the increased media thickness we must adjust the head height.
> The easiest method i found is to cut through the chassis just over the
> paper gap. You could cut exactly through the paper gap, but that would
> lift the pressure rollers as well and require a change there. The chassis
> can be cut in place with nibbler pliers.
> On the left (stepper/belt) side of the printer you need to add a small
> piece of sheetmetal (ideally an angle piece around the rear edge) that
> holds the cut-off part at about 3mm higher than it originally was. On the
> right (head) side you can simply put nuts or washers under the two
> mounting screws (and use longer screws) to achieve the same increase in
> head height.
> You also need to raise the head parking station, lift up the plastic over
> the screw mount on the inside and again use a piece of plastic or
> sheetmetal with screws to raise it on the outside. There was a snap-in
> mechanism originally not allowing you to simply put something under a
> screw. The inside in not held as firmly now, but that's fine and you could
> use a longer screw and some strip of metal to clamp it down if you really
> like.
> Lastly you need to raise the front head rail by the same amount. Simply
> put spacers (nuts) under where the screws attach the piece and use longer
> screws.
>
> *)Carrier
> You need to make a carrier for your PCBs, any rigid material like
> cardboard will work. It should not be too heavy. I used a sheet of formica
> and glued thin cardboard to the bottom for traction (probably not needed).
> If you want a rail for alignment you can glue a piece of aluminum to the
> carrier. It must be low in height to fit in the gap in the transport
> roller, but high enough to provide alignment between plastic guiderails.
> If you do not need the rail a simple piece of cardboard will do.
> The C84 will expect a short delay between the start of the feeding
> mechanism and activation of the paper switch, so you need to make a cutout
> of (edit) on the carrier to faciliate this delay. That is with the sensor
> right at the metal, if you place it further outward you need a longer
> cutout. The C84 is quite tolerant, a tolerance range of about +-4cm or so
> was found to work. (Procedure for finding the valid range upon request if
> you can't work it out yourself).
>
> *)2-sided Alignment
> If you need to align printing on the second side of the PCB it would be
> good to be able to print in the same spot each time. To ensure that you
> can put a rail on the underside of the carrier which rides between plastic
> guides on both the input and output of the printer. To mount these plastic
> guides it is easier to cut out the plastic bottom of the printer to allow
> for wooden mounting blocks. I have not yet installed this fully as aligned
> doublesided printing is not a priority.
>
> Printing:
>
> *)PCB Preparation
> Sand the PCB with 600 or 1000 grit paper so that he surface appears
> scratched everywhere. You may also use a abrasive plastic pad sold for
> cleaning copper pipes before soldering. Then wipe with acetone, twice, the
> first pass should take away the copper dust. The PCB must be grease free
> now and stay that way.
>
> *)Printing
> To print you must insert the carrier manually into the printer. Turn the
> printer on, and wait until it has completed it's dance. Now feed the edge
> of the carrier into the printer so that it jsut protrudes a few mm from
> the traction/pressure rollers. Make sure it is straight so it will not run
> against an edge when the printer feeds.
> Now rint the artwork on your carrier to find the right position (stick
> some tape or adhesive backed plastic foil on it or you may end up with
> permanent marking of the carrier). You can use low resolution for this
> print since you only need to know where it will end up. If you use the
> fastest draft setting watch out, the printer virtually shoots it through.
> Now place the PCB over this position and stick it down with tape. You may
> delay the acetone cleaning of the PCB until this point if you prefer.
> Again feed the carrier and print the artwork.
>
> *)Printer Settings
> When printing a purely black test pattern i found the transparency setting
> does not use any ink from the black cart at all.
> The other settings use ink in varying amounts, the most ink is used for
> matte paper and the least for glossy or durabright setting. You need Photo
> or Best Photo resolution. The "fast" setting, which prints in both
> directions of travel, produces better results for me. No edge smoothing
> needed.
>
>
> *)Curing
> -- see top of message --
>
>
> *)Etching
> I suspected Ferric chloride is less agressive to the ink than CuCl, so i
> set up a test. I cut a test PCB in half after curing to get identical
> samples, and put one in CuCl and one in ferric chloride. If anything the
> ferric chloride showed more agressive under-etching.
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Inkjet printing to copper - finally the ink resists! (like crazy!)

2006-08-01 by Stefan Trethan

On Tue, 01 Aug 2006 21:41:16 +0200, Myc Holmes <mycroft2152y@...>
wrote:

> Nice piece of work, Stefan, getting the time / temprature curing curve.
> have
> you tried it in your smt oven? Can't wait for the photos!
> What kind of pcb material were you using? thickness and oz of copper?
> Myc

Well, it's probably much more low-tech than you imagine...
I haven't looked into the time issue, since i felt the temperature is more
important as long as the time is long enough. That will be a series of
experiments for another day. What i do know is that some time is required,
not only heating it up, that's why my results were bad the last week.

If only the SMD oven was buit yet!!
I was considering if i should build it before proceeding, but i wanted to
get that inkjet thing going so i did not (that oven might take months at
my speed). Also Volkan is using a plate so better eliminate variables.

I will want the oven very soon however, already having thought about the
temperature controller in my mind...

The material is FR4 or similar (it does not have the marking and is more
opaque than normal FR4, but it has all the glass layers). I tried only 18u
(half oz) so far.
The board thickness was 1.5mm.


ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Inkjet printing to copper - finally the ink resists! (like crazy!)

2006-08-01 by Myc Holmes

Don't belittle the effort, You did put some numbers on the process. that
makes it much more capable of being repeated. Thats a lot better than
heating it over a burner until it turns violet-- too subjective.

Myc

To the rest of you guys, pick yourself up off the floor, I am really
complementing Stefan.

:)


On 8/1/06, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 01 Aug 2006 21:41:16 +0200, Myc Holmes <mycroft2152y@...>
> wrote:
>
> > Nice piece of work, Stefan, getting the time / temprature curing curve.
> > have
> > you tried it in your smt oven? Can't wait for the photos!
> > What kind of pcb material were you using? thickness and oz of copper?
> > Myc
>
> Well, it's probably much more low-tech than you imagine...
> I haven't looked into the time issue, since i felt the temperature is more
> important as long as the time is long enough. That will be a series of
> experiments for another day. What i do know is that some time is required,
> not only heating it up, that's why my results were bad the last week.
>
> If only the SMD oven was buit yet!!
> I was considering if i should build it before proceeding, but i wanted to
> get that inkjet thing going so i did not (that oven might take months at
> my speed). Also Volkan is using a plate so better eliminate variables.
>
> I will want the oven very soon however, already having thought about the
> temperature controller in my mind...
>
> The material is FR4 or similar (it does not have the marking and is more
> opaque than normal FR4, but it has all the glass layers). I tried only 18u
> (half oz) so far.
> The board thickness was 1.5mm.
>
>
> ST
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE : [Homebrew_PCBs] Inkjet printing to copper - finally the ink resists! (like crazy!)

2006-08-01 by Robert Hedan

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De la part de Myc Holmes
> Envoyé : août 1 2006 16:32
> À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Inkjet printing to copper -
> finally the ink resists! (like crazy!)
>
>
> Don't belittle the effort, You did put some numbers on the
> process. that makes it much more capable of being repeated.
> Thats a lot better than heating it over a burner until it
> turns violet-- too subjective.
>
> Myc
>
> To the rest of you guys, pick yourself up off the floor, I am
> really complementing Stefan.
>
> :)


I gotta get a thicker carpet, that drop hurt.

Congrats are definitely in order. Determining that curing plays such an
important role is uh, well, very important.

I've still got some work to do on this project and then I can get back at my
C84. The heads are cleaned and the printer is stripped. Now I need to cut
the chassis to lift the upper frame as well as order the ink and carts. I'm
still "thinking" on how I'm going to fabricate a carrier of sorts for the
PCB; double-sided is a priority for me.

I wasn't too anxious to dump money into a bottomless pit unless someone else
got good results like Stefan did. I've kept myself busy on my project
waiting for a report like this. This is good news.

Robert
:)

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Inkjet printing to copper - finally the ink resists! (like crazy!)

2006-08-01 by Stefan Trethan

There's so much more that needs doing.
Curing time effects
Different / other inks (hopefully cheaper)
Doublesided alignment
Component legend print
Use of ink as soldermask
How about soldermask AND component legend (inks running together).

We are still at the beginning i fear.
If you compare it to toner transfer this is equivalent to a very limited
stage, like a exactly specified brand paper, a special model printer and
laminator, exact procedure,...
We know that a huge variety of ways will make good toner transfer, i think
we need to research that for inkjet printing now.

Anyway, i think anyone would be able to get to a starting point that works
with what i used, i tried to keep it cheap and easily available with the
C84 although it is probably fairly complicated to modify for not very
mechanically inclined people. Someone maybe should try the CD printer now.

I'll also have to get the other inks at some point (have only yellow and
black so far), and more yellow (used half of it already during the
experiments, especially at the beginning with the bad carts and while the
vacuum pump was still enabled). I have this silly idea of a full 4-color
component legend in my head ;-)

BTW i'm surprised how well the C84 head stays working. I have disabled the
vacuum pump so it can no longer clean the head. The nozzles will usually
still work after days of sitting there without any cleaning, and if one
fails it is easy to fix by sucking on the vacuum line with a syringe (suck
about half a second then move the head off the parking station and suck
the ink out of the line, plug the line closed). If you think how much ink
the vacuum pump sucks out unnecessarily...

ST


On Tue, 01 Aug 2006 22:32:17 +0200, Myc Holmes <mycroft2152y@...>
wrote:

> Don't belittle the effort, You did put some numbers on the process. that
> makes it much more capable of being repeated. Thats a lot better than
> heating it over a burner until it turns violet-- too subjective.
> Myc
> To the rest of you guys, pick yourself up off the floor, I am really
> complementing Stefan.
> :)

Re: RE : [Homebrew_PCBs] Inkjet printing to copper - finally the ink resists! (like crazy!)

2006-08-01 by Stefan Trethan

On Tue, 01 Aug 2006 22:52:04 +0200, Robert Hedan
<robert.hedan@...> wrote:

>
> I've still got some work to do on this project and then I can get back
> at my
> C84. The heads are cleaned and the printer is stripped. Now I need to
> cut
> the chassis to lift the upper frame as well as order the ink and carts.
> I'm
> still "thinking" on how I'm going to fabricate a carrier of sorts for the
> PCB; double-sided is a priority for me.


Have you looked at the pictures of my printer and carrier board?
Maybe it gives you some ideas..

I may be able to report soon how accurate the repeatability is with using
the paper sensor and a center rail.
Sure hope it is sufficient.


ST

Re: RE : [Homebrew_PCBs] Inkjet printing to copper - finally the ink resists! (like crazy!)

2006-08-01 by lcdpublishing

Bravo Stefan!!!!!

If you need more ink, contact me off-list, I still have the stuff I
bought with you when we all started on this. There isn't much light
at the end of my tunnel so I suspect I won't be doing ink-jet PCBs
anytime soon.

I suspect with the curing being quantified, the performance of other
brands of inks and colors will also broaden. When I did my crude
tests with the durabright ink (yellow), it worked, but I was curing
with a hot air gun.

Also, seeing as I have been using magazine pages for toner transfer,
I have found that the transferred ink (the text on the pages) also
seems to serve as a resist. Could it be that the transfer with heat
is also "Curing" the ink onto the PCB which makes it function as a
resist also? If this is the case, then I suspect that a wide
variety of inks just may work out for this process.

Well, anyway, great job on your progress and that write up. If I
ever get time to tinker with my R220 printer, I will try to do the
same with it.

Chris

Re: Inkjet printing to copper - finally the ink resists! (like crazy!)

2006-08-02 by roycepipkins

Great news! Great write-up! Congrats! I am excited to see a 2nd person
get good results. I would really like to get in on this.

I don't trust the one C84 I see on eBay, but a C88 uses the same ink
and looks like it'd be only $90 new and shipped right from Epson. I
don't mind taking a chance, but I don't want get something that
someone knows won't work.

Does any one *know* of a reason why the C88 won't work?

Anyway, I'm very much looking forward to your photos, Stefan!

Thanks a bunch,
Royce

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> It seems i finally cracked it! Made PCBs with no more
through-etching and
> ink so tough not even acetone can take it off!
>

Re: Inkjet printing to copper - finally the ink resists! (like crazy!)

2006-08-02 by James Newton

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

<snip>

>> James, let me know what exactly would be required to qualify for
the $50
> prize ;-)
>
> Below a writeup i started a few days ago...

<snip>

The writeup is up at

http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcb/etch/directinkjetresist.htm

and I've noted that things that I think are missing on that page.
Mostly just a picture or two, screen shots of the driver settings,
and I wanted to verify the exact part number of the MISPRO ink that
you purchased.

If you don't want the money, designate a charity and I'll donate to
that.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Inkjet printing to copper - finally the ink resists! (like crazy!)

2006-08-02 by Volkan Sahin

Stefan,
Great great great. I really don't know what to say,
you also did a good documentation. James, thanks for
your nice touches. I have also some pictures of my
style of modification if you think that useful I can
e-mail them but as you know CX4200/4800 modification
need additional electronics for the sensors. In our
archive folder there is also double sided-solder
masked PCB photos, may be it can be useful to add.
Volkan

... I think are missing

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Inkjet printing to copper - finally the ink resists! (like crazy!)

2006-08-02 by Stefan Trethan

On Wed, 02 Aug 2006 03:02:16 +0200, roycepipkins <royce.pipkins@...>
wrote:

> Great news! Great write-up! Congrats! I am excited to see a 2nd person
> get good results. I would really like to get in on this.
> I don't trust the one C84 I see on eBay, but a C88 uses the same ink
> and looks like it'd be only $90 new and shipped right from Epson. I
> don't mind taking a chance, but I don't want get something that
> someone knows won't work.
> Does any one *know* of a reason why the C88 won't work?
> Anyway, I'm very much looking forward to your photos, Stefan!
> Thanks a bunch,
> Royce


Royce,

really, there is no reason to prefer a new printer. You will void the
warranty immediately.
The c84 on ebay often are described "works, but head dried up" or "works,
but head needs cleaning".

This will happen to any C84 (and other epsons) that is in longer use, the
hose to the vacuum pump totally clogs up preventing the head cleaning to
work.

Often you will read people saying "i have bought a expensive set of new
cartridges - but instead of making it better it got worse". Of course if
you put in a new cart you add air and without vacuum that won't come out.


So just look for some such fault, and look the printer still has some
carts installed so it isn't all dry.
Then take the head cleaning station and vacuum pump out and flush things
with water (you may need to remove the hose from the pump and use a wire
to clear it).
Then use Steve's procedure (cleaning solution on the parking pad) and it
will be un-clogged.

I think you have extremely good chances to get a ebay printer to work if
you select a likely candidate. And at usually 1eur you can buy 10
including shipping for the price of a new one. So even if the first one is
not good - you get lotsa nice replacement mechanical and electrical parts.

ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Inkjet printing to copper - finally the ink resists! (like crazy!)

2006-08-02 by Stefan Trethan

On Wed, 02 Aug 2006 03:28:16 +0200, James Newton
<jamesmichaelnewton@...> wrote:

>
> The writeup is up at
> http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcb/etch/directinkjetresist.htm
> and I've noted that things that I think are missing on that page.
> Mostly just a picture or two, screen shots of the driver settings,
> and I wanted to verify the exact part number of the MISPRO ink that
> you purchased.
> If you don't want the money, designate a charity and I'll donate to
> that.


Now that's nice!
And all with pictures too!

I'll make the missing photos and screenshots today and get back to you
with them.

Will you be able to maintain this page?

I could well use some money to buy more inks, never mind that...



I still think i should set up that wiki, because there are loads and loads
of things that need writing up.
It seems to me if everyone working on this gets an account to edit that
would be most convenient. I do not want to make it fully public because
there _are_ lunatics out there that will just come and fill the place with
rude words (look at recent events here!). I think Wikipedia must have some
huge effort in place to restore damaged entries from backups? Anyway
that's not something i have time to do, so we'll just give out permissions
that's easier.

I have not yet figured out how to use the thing however i think it takes
normal HTML for entries but i do not know how to structure things (or
even how to get the photos organized in folders).


ST

Re: Inkjet printing to copper - finally the ink resists! (like crazy!)

2006-08-02 by roycepipkins

Ah, my search parameters were wrong. "Epson C84" only got one result.
Searching for "Stylus C84" and excludeing the word ink was much more
fruitful.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 02 Aug 2006 03:02:16 +0200, roycepipkins <royce.pipkins@...>
> wrote:
>
> > Great news! Great write-up! Congrats! I am excited to see a 2nd person
> > get good results. I would really like to get in on this.
> > I don't trust the one C84 I see on eBay, but a C88 uses the same ink
> > and looks like it'd be only $90 new and shipped right from Epson. I
> > don't mind taking a chance, but I don't want get something that
> > someone knows won't work.
> > Does any one *know* of a reason why the C88 won't work?
> > Anyway, I'm very much looking forward to your photos, Stefan!
> > Thanks a bunch,
> > Royce
>
>
> Royce,
>
> really, there is no reason to prefer a new printer. You will void the
> warranty immediately.
> The c84 on ebay often are described "works, but head dried up" or
"works,
> but head needs cleaning".
>
> This will happen to any C84 (and other epsons) that is in longer
use, the
> hose to the vacuum pump totally clogs up preventing the head
cleaning to
> work.
>
> Often you will read people saying "i have bought a expensive set of
new
> cartridges - but instead of making it better it got worse". Of
course if
> you put in a new cart you add air and without vacuum that won't come
out.
>
>
> So just look for some such fault, and look the printer still has some
> carts installed so it isn't all dry.
> Then take the head cleaning station and vacuum pump out and flush
things
> with water (you may need to remove the hose from the pump and use a
wire
> to clear it).
> Then use Steve's procedure (cleaning solution on the parking pad)
and it
> will be un-clogged.
>
> I think you have extremely good chances to get a ebay printer to
work if
> you select a likely candidate. And at usually 1eur you can buy 10
> including shipping for the price of a new one. So even if the first
one is
> not good - you get lotsa nice replacement mechanical and electrical
parts.
>
> ST
>

Re: Inkjet printing to copper - finally the ink resists! (like crazy!)

2006-08-02 by James Newton

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 02 Aug 2006 03:28:16 +0200, James Newton
> <jamesmichaelnewton@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > The writeup is up at
> >

http://techref.massmind.org/techref/pcb/etch/directinkjetresist.htm

> > and I've noted that things that I think are missing on that page.
> > Mostly just a picture or two, screen shots of the driver settings,
> > and I wanted to verify the exact part number of the MISPRO ink
that
> > you purchased.
> > If you don't want the money, designate a charity and I'll donate
to
> > that.
>
>
> Now that's nice!
> And all with pictures too!

Thank you, I do try.

> I'll make the missing photos and screenshots today and get back to
you
> with them.

And with that, I will PayPal you $50.

> Will you be able to maintain this page?

Not only will I maintain the page, but if you look to the bottom you
will see a form that allows anyone to post to the page (spam filters
and an oversight approval system are in place) with questions,
comments, links, etc... And, not only that, if you register with the
site, you, Stefen, can become the page editor and modify it directly
as you wish.

> I could well use some money to buy more inks, never mind that...

I'm happy to contribute to your addiction. ;)

> I still think i should set up that wiki, because there are loads
and loads
> of things that need writing up.
> It seems to me if everyone working on this gets an account to edit
that
> would be most convenient. I do not want to make it fully public
because
> there _are_ lunatics out there that will just come and fill the
place with
> rude words (look at recent events here!). I think Wikipedia must
have some
> huge effort in place to restore damaged entries from backups?
Anyway
> that's not something i have time to do, so we'll just give out
permissions
> that's easier.

Setting up a Wiki is a noble goal. If you want to take the time to
manage the user account, try to keep the spam under control and all
that, I encourage you to do so.

On the other hand, I would be happy to make my existing wiki system
(on massmind.org) available and I will manage the users, keep it spam
free, do the backups, etc... for you.

Just in case I wasn't clear enough, massmind.org IS a wiki. Anyone
can post content to it. I filter spam and approve (or not) all posts.
The page for this "contest" is ON that wiki already. You can become
the editor of the page and change it as you will.

> I have not yet figured out how to use the thing however i think it
takes
> normal HTML for entries but i do not know how to structure things
(or
> even how to get the photos organized in folders).

If you choose to use massmind, just email me the pictures, or point
me to them, and I will take care of all that for you.

James Newton,
Knowledge Archiver
jamesnewton@...

Re: Inkjet printing to copper - finally the ink resists! (like crazy!)

2006-08-02 by James Newton

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Volkan Sahin <vsahin@...> wrote:
>
> Stefan,
> Great great great. I really don't know what to say,
> you also did a good documentation. James, thanks for
> your nice touches. I have also some pictures of my
> style of modification if you think that useful I can
> e-mail them but as you know CX4200/4800 modification
> need additional electronics for the sensors. In our
> archive folder there is also double sided-solder
> masked PCB photos, may be it can be useful to add.
> Volkan
>
> ... I think are missing
>

I would be very happy to add any photos or other information to the
page, if you will email them to me. I looked for the double sided-
solder masked photos and I dont seem to find them. Could you help me by
pointing to them?

Re: Inkjet printing to copper - finally the ink resists! (like crazy!)

2006-08-03 by roycepipkins

OK. I have a C84 on the way. Its 'untested' but it was less than
$30USD shipped and I got tired of losing bids. On to the CIS system.

A quick question about the ink: Is there any reason I should not just
buy a big yellow (MISPRO-PT-Y) mix in a couple drops of a small black
(MISPRO-2-MK) and load that in every cartridge? (e.g. Instead of the
multi-color kit: MISPRO42-SET-MK linked in the web page.) I haven't
seen anything that mentions actually using the other colors in
connection with the best results, but I might have missed it.

Regards,
Royce


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "roycepipkins"
<royce.pipkins@...> wrote:
>
> Ah, my search parameters were wrong. "Epson C84" only got one result.
> Searching for "Stylus C84" and excludeing the word ink was much more
> fruitful.
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Inkjet printing to copper - finally the ink resists! (like crazy!)

2006-08-03 by Stefan Trethan

I decided i don't really need a CIS and instead installed spongeless
carts. They can be refilled in the printer within seconds. A CIS is IMO
only of advantage if one prints really a lot, otherwise you add all the
complexity for no benefit.

I'm not sure if there is such an advantage in loading all carts with the
same ink. The color carts don't have that many nozzles on the c84 and it
is a bit tricky to control which heads should be used. Basically the black
head can do it.

I plan to also buy and load the other ink colors in small amounts, hoping
to use them for printing full color front panels, component legend, etc.
at some point. Either i will try to see if much more black ink can be
added to the yellow in the black head (Volkan's results seem to suggest
this is not detrimental), the MISPRO colors are very powerful, a 50/50
black yellow mixture would probably look very deep black already.
Or the other option is leaving the black head completely yellow and put
black into the yellow slot. But this would require much trickery with the
colors in every printout.

I really start to wonder how special the mispro ink really is, and if
other inks would work. Now that more people are working on this we will
surely get answers to many of those questions.


ST


On Thu, 03 Aug 2006 23:08:00 +0200, roycepipkins <royce.pipkins@...>
wrote:

> OK. I have a C84 on the way. Its 'untested' but it was less than
> $30USD shipped and I got tired of losing bids. On to the CIS system.
> A quick question about the ink: Is there any reason I should not just
> buy a big yellow (MISPRO-PT-Y) mix in a couple drops of a small black
> (MISPRO-2-MK) and load that in every cartridge? (e.g. Instead of the
> multi-color kit: MISPRO42-SET-MK linked in the web page.) I haven't
> seen anything that mentions actually using the other colors in
> connection with the best results, but I might have missed it.
> Regards,
> Royce

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Inkjet printing to copper - finally the ink resists! (like crazy!)

2006-08-03 by Volkan Sahin

Royce,
That's what I am doing. I am mixing yellow with
magenta. You can mix with black (color black
ink=yellow+magenta+cyan mixture) but cyan is not so
much etch resistant because of that I prefer mixing
with magenta.
Volkan


--- roycepipkins <royce.pipkins@...> wrote:

> OK. I have a C84 on the way. Its 'untested' but it
> was less than
> $30USD shipped and I got tired of losing bids. On to
> the CIS system.
>
> A quick question about the ink: Is there any reason
> I should not just
> buy a big yellow (MISPRO-PT-Y) mix in a couple drops
> of a small black
> (MISPRO-2-MK) and load that in every cartridge?
> (e.g. Instead of the
> multi-color kit: MISPRO42-SET-MK linked in the web
> page.) I haven't
> seen anything that mentions actually using the other
> colors in
> connection with the best results, but I might have
> missed it.
>
> Regards,
> Royce
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "roycepipkins"
> <royce.pipkins@...> wrote:
> >
> > Ah, my search parameters were wrong. "Epson C84"
> only got one result.
> > Searching for "Stylus C84" and excludeing the word
> ink was much more
> > fruitful.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: Inkjet printing to copper - finally the ink resists! (like crazy!)

2006-08-04 by roycepipkins

I took your suggestion and got the spongless carts and associated
refill equipment from MIS Associates. $86USD shipped. I only got
yellow and black ink though. This was my parts list:

1 CHP-R-C84RSET Black, Cyan, Magenta, Yellow Standard Replacement
Chips $7.80 $7.80

1 SK168 UNIVERSAL CHIP RESETTER FOR EPSON CHIPPED CARTRIDGES $19.95 $19.95

1 MIS-SYRINGE 10 CC LURE LOCK (purchase needle separately) $1.00 $1.00

1 MIS-NEEDLE 20 GA LURE LOCK NEEDLE 1.5 INCHES LONG - GREEN $0.25 $0.25

1 MIS-BADP BOTTOM FILL ADAPTER $0.50 $0.50

1 MISPRO-4-Y MIS PRO INK - 4oz BOTTLE - YELLOW $18.00 $18.00

1 MISPRO-2-MK MIS PRO INK - 2oz BOTTLE - UNIVERSAL BLACK $12.00 $12.00

4 SLC-2400-E Empty Spongless Cart No Chip for C84, C86, R200, R220,
R300, R320, R340, R800, R1800, R2400 $5.50 $22.00

The only thing I couldn't buy was the little replacement plugs. I kept
getting a error on the website. I guess I'll just have to be careful.
Have you destroyed many plugs?

Anyway, all the stuff should get here by late next week I'd think.
Then I can begin assembly. In the meantime I need to get a decent temp
sensor and measure the laminator press I have access to. I suspect it
can't hit 230 degC and that I'll have to snag a hotplate that can.

Regards,
Royce


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> I decided i don't really need a CIS and instead installed spongeless
> carts. They can be refilled in the printer within seconds. A CIS is
IMO
> only of advantage if one prints really a lot, otherwise you add all
the
> complexity for no benefit.
>
> I'm not sure if there is such an advantage in loading all carts with
the
> same ink. The color carts don't have that many nozzles on the c84
and it
> is a bit tricky to control which heads should be used. Basically the
black
> head can do it.
>
> I plan to also buy and load the other ink colors in small amounts,
hoping
> to use them for printing full color front panels, component legend,
etc.
> at some point. Either i will try to see if much more black ink can be
> added to the yellow in the black head (Volkan's results seem to
suggest
> this is not detrimental), the MISPRO colors are very powerful, a 50/50
> black yellow mixture would probably look very deep black already.
> Or the other option is leaving the black head completely yellow and
put
> black into the yellow slot. But this would require much trickery
with the
> colors in every printout.
>
> I really start to wonder how special the mispro ink really is, and if
> other inks would work. Now that more people are working on this we
will
> surely get answers to many of those questions.
>
>
> ST
>
>

Re: Inkjet printing to copper - finally the ink resists! (like crazy!)

2006-08-05 by derekhawkins

>The only thing I couldn't buy was the little replacement plugs. I kept
>getting a error on the website.

You get the "error" trying to buy SLC-PLUG from this page;

http://www.inksupply.com/spongless_carts.cfm

It's added to your cart when you use the "Accessories for refilling"
page instead;

http://www.inksupply.com/accessory.cfm?action=find

Somebody should bring this to their attention.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "roycepipkins"
<royce.pipkins@...> wrote:
>