Homebrew PCBs

Hi Guys,

As the subject title says, I am looking for a source of them.  
Actually, I really don't need a lot of them, I just would like to have 
enough to identify all the drills I have (or will have) and use.  

Most of the bits I have now already have the rings, but some don't.

Chris

On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 13:13:33 +0200, lcdpublishing  
<lcdpublishing@...m> wrote:

> Hi Guys,
> As the subject title says, I am looking for a source of them.
> Actually, I really don't need a lot of them, I just would like to have
> enough to identify all the drills I have (or will have) and use.
> Most of the bits I have now already have the rings, but some don't.
> Chris


I had the same wish, so i got a set of drills at ebay with rings on most.
I write the correct size on the ring with felt tip if i don't have the  
right one.

To set them i made a special tool.

ST

I have about 250 drills right now and about 80% of them have rings 
on them.  I used to throw away the rings when the drill would break 
but have been keeping them since realizing the difficulty in getting 
them :-)

The one supplier of drill bits I was using on Ebay has since gone - 
he had great sets with popular sizes.  But those grab bags are handy 
as hell too - especially as I get further and further with my 
machine.  Somehow I have it in my mind that this little machine is 
going to be able to do some pretty nifty things ;-)

Chris


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 13:13:33 +0200, lcdpublishing  
> <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Guys,
> > As the subject title says, I am looking for a source of them.
> > Actually, I really don't need a lot of them, I just would like 
to have
> > enough to identify all the drills I have (or will have) and use.
> > Most of the bits I have now already have the rings, but some 
don't.
> > Chris
> 
> 
> I had the same wish, so i got a set of drills at ebay with rings 
on most.
> I write the correct size on the ring with felt tip if i don't have 
the  

> right one.
> 
> To set them i made a special tool.
> 
> ST
>

In a message dated 7/25/2006 6:21:37 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
lcdpublishing@... writes:

As the  subject title says, I am looking for a source of them.   Actually, I  
really don't need a lot of them, I just would like to have enough to identify 
 all the drills I have (or will have) and use. 

Most of the bits I have  now already have the rings, but some don't.<<
Chris!  Do I imagine correctly that you will have only  one or two of each 
size, and will hand-mark the ID-rings?  Wow!  Even  my CNC PCB drill will BUST 
commonly-used sizes often enough that it has proven  VERY 
economically-advantageous to buy-in those "reconditioned" boxes of 50 bits  (JDR Microdevices, 
etc), ALL of which have properly MARKED rings.  You  might buy a box of those, and 
SAVE the rings off busted bits, for re-use.   And SAVE the 1/8" shanks of the 
busted bits!  They can be used for  regrinding into engraving bits, braze-on 
"carbide edges" for specials you make,  etc.  
 
Yeah, if I had to depend on one or two of "popular sizes"  (like #56, for 
example), I'd be spending 70% of MY time waiting for delivery of  the TWO 
replacements!
 
I haven't needed a "professionally-did" PCB in so long, I  don't even know if 
they will accept "2X camera-ready" artwork for new work as  always, or now 
will accept ONLY whatever PCB-CAD layout "on-disk"!  So, I  haven't asked how 
THEY buy-in their bits.  Boxes of 100?  How many  sizes do they keep in stock?  
Min. quantity of each size before  reorder?  Hmmm...  I will have to try to 
remember to ask, next time I  need PTH or multi-layer!
 
Jan Rowland






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 21:38:45 +0200, <JanRwl@...> wrote:

>
> I haven't needed a "professionally-did" PCB in so long, I  don't even  
> know if
> they will accept "2X camera-ready" artwork for new work as  always, or  
> now
> will accept ONLY whatever PCB-CAD layout "on-disk"!  So, I  haven't  
> asked how
> THEY buy-in their bits.  Boxes of 100?  How many  sizes do they keep in  
> stock?
> Min. quantity of each size before  reorder?  Hmmm...  I will have to try  
> to
> remember to ask, next time I  need PTH or multi-layer!


Gerber files, usually.

They will stock several boxes of the sizes they have (number depends on  
company size i guess), and i would expect quite a few boxes with smaller  
numbers of the strange sizes too.
Many seem to have them drills re-ground and cycle the boxes around....

ST

Yeah, I should keep the broken ones, if for nothing else, to sell 
for scrap value.  I don't have any means of repointing or even 
grinding carbide here.  I do have enough grinders I suppose that I 
could put a soft wheel or a diamond wheel on somthing though.  I 
guess I better start saving them!

I have not broken that many bits so far with my hand-drilling on the 
big drill press.  Most of the times it is from whacking the side of 
the bit putting the board in place or something else stupid. Seldom 
break them when drilling though.

I have been looking around for some boxes containing lots of the 
common sizes I use the most of .025", .035", .045", .055", .062", 
and .125".  I would guess that 80% of the holes I have drilled so 
far are .035" and I did score a set of them.

Chris



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, JanRwl@... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 7/25/2006 6:21:37 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
> lcdpublishing@... writes:
> 
> As the  subject title says, I am looking for a source of them.   
Actually, I  
> really don't need a lot of them, I just would like to have enough 
to identify 
>  all the drills I have (or will have) and use. 
> 
> Most of the bits I have  now already have the rings, but some 
don't.<<
> Chris!  Do I imagine correctly that you will have only  one or two 
of each 
> size, and will hand-mark the ID-rings?  Wow!  Even  my CNC PCB 
drill will BUST 
> commonly-used sizes often enough that it has proven  VERY 
> economically-advantageous to buy-in those "reconditioned" boxes of 
50 bits  (JDR Microdevices, 
> etc), ALL of which have properly MARKED rings.  You  might buy a 
box of those, and 
> SAVE the rings off busted bits, for re-use.   And SAVE the 1/8" 
shanks of the 
> busted bits!  They can be used for  regrinding into engraving 
bits, braze-on 
> "carbide edges" for specials you make,  etc.  
>  
> Yeah, if I had to depend on one or two of "popular sizes"  (like 
#56, for 
> example), I'd be spending 70% of MY time waiting for delivery of  
the TWO 
> replacements!
>  
> I haven't needed a "professionally-did" PCB in so long, I  don't 
even know if 
> they will accept "2X camera-ready" artwork for new work as  
always, or now 
> will accept ONLY whatever PCB-CAD layout "on-disk"!  So, I  
haven't asked how 
> THEY buy-in their bits.  Boxes of 100?  How many  sizes do they 
keep in stock?  
> Min. quantity of each size before  reorder?  Hmmm...  I will have 
to try to 

> remember to ask, next time I  need PTH or multi-layer!
>  
> Jan Rowland
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 21:53:31 +0200, lcdpublishing  
<lcdpublishing@...m> wrote:

> Yeah, I should keep the broken ones, if for nothing else, to sell
> for scrap value.  I don't have any means of repointing or even
> grinding carbide here.  I do have enough grinders I suppose that I
> could put a soft wheel or a diamond wheel on somthing though.  I
> guess I better start saving them!


When i was at school we made scribe tips out of them broken ones. Still  
have mine somewhere, it will work as a glass cutter ;-)

There were PCB drills with a soft shank where they could cut a thread for  
screw-in tip replacement. But at some point they made them solid carbide.

I keep them all, but have yet to find a good use (lacking a diamond wheel  
too).

However, if you break one by chance with a short section of drill spiral  
remaining they can be used to drill or enlage holes in populated boards  
"freehand" where a normal length drill would break. I wish they'd make  
them with only 2mm or 3mm of thin end. They'd never break! Conrad  
Electronics from germany used to sell spear shaped bits like that, not  
sure if they still do.
It might be possible to grind them shorter, but maybe it is too tricky to  
do by hand (although i'm usually fairly good at drill grinding)

Anyway, with the pivoting drill press i managed to make some quite dull  
before breaking them.

St

LOL!  

I can just picture me standing in front of a grinder today (with my 
bad eyesight) trying to hand grind a point on a .035" carbide drill 
bit :-)  I can barely grind the .250" drill bits anymore :-(

The more I think about it though, I am going to pick up either a 
soft-green wheel or a diamond wheel.  I plan on giving the isolation 
milling a try when I get the little machine done (sometime during 
the next century).  I suppose someone makes bits for isolation 
milling but I have not seen any in the grab-bags of bits I have been 
buying.

So, in the spirit of doing everything else, why not make an attempt 
at grinding tiny bits to drive myself crazy ;-)

Chris



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 21:53:31 +0200, lcdpublishing  
> <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
> 
> > Yeah, I should keep the broken ones, if for nothing else, to sell
> > for scrap value.  I don't have any means of repointing or even
> > grinding carbide here.  I do have enough grinders I suppose that 
I
> > could put a soft wheel or a diamond wheel on somthing though.  I
> > guess I better start saving them!
> 
> 
> When i was at school we made scribe tips out of them broken ones. 
Still  
> have mine somewhere, it will work as a glass cutter ;-)
> 
> There were PCB drills with a soft shank where they could cut a 
thread for  
> screw-in tip replacement. But at some point they made them solid 
carbide.
> 
> I keep them all, but have yet to find a good use (lacking a 
diamond wheel  
> too).
> 
> However, if you break one by chance with a short section of drill 
spiral  
> remaining they can be used to drill or enlage holes in populated 
boards  
> "freehand" where a normal length drill would break. I wish they'd 
make  
> them with only 2mm or 3mm of thin end. They'd never break! Conrad  
> Electronics from germany used to sell spear shaped bits like that, 
not  
> sure if they still do.
> It might be possible to grind them shorter, but maybe it is too 
tricky to  
> do by hand (although i'm usually fairly good at drill grinding)
> 
> Anyway, with the pivoting drill press i managed to make some quite 
dull  

> before breaking them.
> 
> St
>

On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 22:28:31 +0200, lcdpublishing  
<lcdpublishing@...m> wrote:

> LOL!
> I can just picture me standing in front of a grinder today (with my
> bad eyesight) trying to hand grind a point on a .035" carbide drill
> bit :-)  I can barely grind the .250" drill bits anymore :-(
> The more I think about it though, I am going to pick up either a
> soft-green wheel or a diamond wheel.  I plan on giving the isolation
> milling a try when I get the little machine done (sometime during
> the next century).  I suppose someone makes bits for isolation
> milling but I have not seen any in the grab-bags of bits I have been
> buying.
> So, in the spirit of doing everything else, why not make an attempt
> at grinding tiny bits to drive myself crazy ;-)
> Chris


You think the soft green wheel will do them? I think i got one with that  
belt sander/grinder combo...
But i would not expect the runout to be anywhere near acceptable to avoid  
breaking them bits...


What sort of grinder do the diamond wheels need?

ST

A green wheel would be tough to do it with, but it would work for 
making an engraving cutter.  Keep in mind, you have to dress the 
wheels prior to, and frequently during grinding.  

I have used diamond wheels on mills and on "tool grinders".  
Obviously the mill isn't the tool of choice, but in a pinch you 
gotta do what you gotta do!  Tool grinders have nice, exposed 
spindles so that you can manipulate the tool bit at various angles 
to the diamond wheel (usually a cup wheel).  I suppose you could 
mount one on a bench grinder if you have the correct size arbor or 
adapter.  You would also have to leave off the outer wheel cover so 
you have access.

During my first few years as a machinist, I used to have to hand 
grind form tools for use in CNC machines. These tools were either 
carbide or HSS.  The form tools where then used to mill slots on 
babbit bearings (thrust bearings).  These slots allowed the oil to 
flow up onto the face for lubrication.  The bad part of it was every 
bearing had a different profile for these oil grooves.  It seemed as 
though the designers followed no standards, just drew up what looked 
good at the moment.  So, I would have to grind up the tool by hand, 
making comparisons to radius gages etc.  The good part is that while 
the bearings were made to exacting standards and inspected by the 
vendor, they were never really picky about those oil groves - thank 
goodness.  

So, back to the topic at hand, I used the green wheels on the bench 
grinder to create these. It was much faster for me to do it free 
hand at the bench grinder than to use jigs and such with a tool 
grinder and diamond wheels.  So, you can do some very intricate 
stuff with green wheels, just don't try to do it fast ;-)

Chris




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 22:28:31 +0200, lcdpublishing  
> <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
> 
> > LOL!
> > I can just picture me standing in front of a grinder today (with 
my
> > bad eyesight) trying to hand grind a point on a .035" carbide 
drill
> > bit :-)  I can barely grind the .250" drill bits anymore :-(
> > The more I think about it though, I am going to pick up either a
> > soft-green wheel or a diamond wheel.  I plan on giving the 
isolation
> > milling a try when I get the little machine done (sometime during
> > the next century).  I suppose someone makes bits for isolation
> > milling but I have not seen any in the grab-bags of bits I have 
been
> > buying.
> > So, in the spirit of doing everything else, why not make an 
attempt
> > at grinding tiny bits to drive myself crazy ;-)
> > Chris
> 
> 
> You think the soft green wheel will do them? I think i got one 
with that  
> belt sander/grinder combo...
> But i would not expect the runout to be anywhere near acceptable 
to avoid  

> breaking them bits...
> 
> 
> What sort of grinder do the diamond wheels need?
> 
> ST
>

On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 23:00:38 +0200, lcdpublishing  
<lcdpublishing@...m> wrote:

> A green wheel would be tough to do it with, but it would work for
> making an engraving cutter.  Keep in mind, you have to dress the
> wheels prior to, and frequently during grinding.


I plan on getting a dressing tool. Do i want one of the spiky wheely  
things or a diamond tool?

I have several tool grinders, but i was worried the runout would never be  
good enough for the diamond wheels or i could not mount them precisely  
enough. I would not know how to dress a diamond wheel??

ST

Forget the "Spiky" things unless you want to remove a lot of material 
from the wheel in a hurry - good for rough work.

Find a diamond "point" type - they are not too expensive. But you gain 
a lot of control during the dressing.  You can also get a very round 
wheel that has as flat of surface as your hand can move sideways 
across the rest - my favorite type.

Diamond wheels are dressed with a diamond point (from what I 
remember).  However, you have to mount the point in a fixture to get 
it to work good.  When you say you have a couple tool grinders, are 
you talking about the hand held things or what?  Could you be 
referring to a bench grinder of some sort?

I would be surprised if you have a "Tool grinder" as they are usually 
specialized type grinders for grinding tools and cutters.  I have 
never seen one outside a machine shop's tool room.

If you can, send me a picture of your grinder so I can better identify 
it.

Chris





> I plan on getting a dressing tool. Do i want one of the spiky 
wheely  
> things or a diamond tool?
> 
> I have several tool grinders, but i was worried the runout would 
never be  
> good enough for the diamond wheels or i could not mount them 
precisely  

> enough. I would not know how to dress a diamond wheel??
> 
> ST
>

On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 23:50:14 +0200, lcdpublishing  
<lcdpublishing@...m> wrote:

>  When you say you have a couple tool grinders, are
> you talking about the hand held things or what?  Could you be
> referring to a bench grinder of some sort?


Just the cheap bench or wall mount grinders with a AC motor in the middle  
and two wheels one on either side. People use them here to grind chisels,  
lathe tools and drills and stuff. I also have a grinder for 1m (or so)  
wide wood planer blades, but that's another story and no good for this.

I would like a way to straighten out the rounded edges of grinding wheels.

Do you think the diamond wheels (cup form) could possibly work on those  
shop grinders?

ST

That is a common bench grinder as I would refer to it, not a tool or 
cutter grinder like that used in a tool room.  You certainly could 
through a diamond cup on it if you can find the right size adapters 
and such.  The only precaution is making sure you are holding the 
tool good as you do your grinding.  Sometimes, the cup wheels tend 
to grab more so than the general abrasive wheels.  If you can find a 
cup wheel at a decent price, it sure would be worth it to have. 
Dressing the cup wheel will be your biggest problem as you won't 
have a way to securely hold the point. However, steady hands and 
good eyes can do remarkable things when forced to!

That other grinder sounds facinating!  If you every have your camera 
handy and think of it, shoot a couple pictures for me, I would love 
to see it.




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 23:50:14 +0200, lcdpublishing  
> <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
> 
> >  When you say you have a couple tool grinders, are
> > you talking about the hand held things or what?  Could you be
> > referring to a bench grinder of some sort?
> 
> 
> Just the cheap bench or wall mount grinders with a AC motor in the 
middle  
> and two wheels one on either side. People use them here to grind 
chisels,  
> lathe tools and drills and stuff. I also have a grinder for 1m (or 
so)  
> wide wood planer blades, but that's another story and no good for 
this.
> 
> I would like a way to straighten out the rounded edges of grinding 
wheels.
> 
> Do you think the diamond wheels (cup form) could possibly work on 
those  

> shop grinders?
> 
> ST
>

> lcdpublishing wrote:
>
> <snip>
> I would be surprised if you have a "Tool
> grinder" as they are usually specialized
> type grinders for grinding tools and
> cutters.  I have never seen one outside
> a machine shop's tool room.
> <snip>

I know this is starting to stray off topic.

BUT talking of grinders - has anyone used
a Quorn for grinding tiny drills ?

I am thinking of making a Quorn just for
the fun of it and I wonder if it will
actually be useful.

On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 00:37:29 +0200, lcdpublishing  
<lcdpublishing@...m> wrote:

>
> That other grinder sounds facinating!  If you every have your camera
> handy and think of it, shoot a couple pictures for me, I would love
> to see it.


Can do.
basically a cup grinding wheel and a holder for the blade that moves  
left/right on dovetail ways.

I was contemplating at some point if it may be used to grind precise ways  
for a CNC.

ST

I haven't used one for pcb drills but I dont see why it couldn't be used, 
once a suitable wheel had been found. I suspect you will be in for prolonged 
fun building a Quorn though.  There are simpler small ctter grinder designs 
that would probably be equal to the task. My Quorn is still a collection of 
castings, apart from the main pillar and I suspect it will be a long time 
before I get it finished.

Bill
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 8:50 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Looking for a source of those RINGs on PCB 
drills?

>> lcdpublishing wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>> I would be surprised if you have a "Tool
>> grinder" as they are usually specialized
>> type grinders for grinding tools and
>> cutters.  I have never seen one outside
>> a machine shop's tool room.
>> <snip>
>
> I know this is starting to stray off topic.
>
> BUT talking of grinders - has anyone used
> a Quorn for grinding tiny drills ?
>
> I am thinking of making a Quorn just for
> the fun of it and I wonder if it will
> actually be useful.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and 
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

>> andrewm wrote:
>> I know this is starting to stray off topic.
>>
>> BUT talking of grinders - has anyone used
>> a Quorn for grinding tiny drills ?
>>
>> I am thinking of making a Quorn just for
>> the fun of it and I wonder if it will
>> actually be useful.

> Bill Maxwell wrote:
>
> I haven't used one for pcb drills but
> I dont see why it couldn't be used, 
> once a suitable wheel had been found.
> I suspect you will be in for prolonged 
> fun building a Quorn though.  There
> are simpler small ctter grinder designs 
> that would probably be equal to the
> task. My Quorn is still a collection of 
> castings, apart from the main pillar
> and I suspect it will be a long time 
> before I get it finished.

Yes - fun is a relative term.

There is still a lot of fun to be had
from looking at unfinished castings
isn't there ?

I susspect I shall also shell out a few
grand for a profesional grinder as well.
It might just be nice if I could use the
Quorn for something as well if I build
it.

And - yes - there are simpler ones around
than the Quorn - but are they as pretty
:D

No Andrew, I agree that none are as pretty as the Quorn and I also agree 
that looking at castings is fun too. I have been using that justification 
for more than 10 years on some of my collection of castings.

Bill
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 9:29 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Fun Quorn Oxymoron was Re: Looking for a source of 
those RINGs on PCB drills?

>>> andrewm wrote:
>>> I know this is starting to stray off topic.
>>>
>>> BUT talking of grinders - has anyone used
>>> a Quorn for grinding tiny drills ?
>>>
>>> I am thinking of making a Quorn just for
>>> the fun of it and I wonder if it will
>>> actually be useful.
>
>> Bill Maxwell wrote:
>>
>> I haven't used one for pcb drills but
>> I dont see why it couldn't be used,
>> once a suitable wheel had been found.
>> I suspect you will be in for prolonged
>> fun building a Quorn though.  There
>> are simpler small ctter grinder designs
>> that would probably be equal to the
>> task. My Quorn is still a collection of
>> castings, apart from the main pillar
>> and I suspect it will be a long time
>> before I get it finished.
>
> Yes - fun is a relative term.
>
> There is still a lot of fun to be had
> from looking at unfinished castings
> isn't there ?
>
> I susspect I shall also shell out a few
> grand for a profesional grinder as well.
> It might just be nice if I could use the
> Quorn for something as well if I build
> it.
>
> And - yes - there are simpler ones around
> than the Quorn - but are they as pretty
> :D
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and 
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

In a message dated 7/25/2006 3:42:54 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
stefan_trethan@... writes:

What  sort of grinder do the diamond wheels need?



ST:  I can't answer your question by specifying a "usual  grinder-motor" 
which would be suitable, except to say it'd have to be one with  very good 
bearings, well balanced, so smooth-running, and I'd want at least 6000  RPM.
 
I made an arbor with a 12.7 mm dia. shank, which accepts 100  mm dia. X 3 mm 
thick diamond-rim wheels (3 mm of O.D. is diamond-compound) and I  use that in 
my vertical mill ("Bridgeport" type mill).  This makes it  possible to do 
relatively precision grinding by holding the bit being ground in  a collet 
fixture or vise on the mill-table, which can be moved with 0.0005 inch  precision 
fairly well in the X & Y directions.  But I can get this  spindle on up to about 
3500 RPM before I am afraid to take it higher, lest the  machine  vaporize!   
         Jan  Rowland


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]