Homebrew_PCBs

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Hedan" <robert.hedan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 4:21 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Regenerating Ferric Chloride


> Ok,
>
> I finally got around to reading the thread about muriatic acid and
> wondered
> if I could do something with the spent FeCl I have been accumulating. I
> was
> planning on bringing it to the annual domestic waste collection done by
> the
> city, but I'd prefer to recycle it if at all possible.
>
> So I googled and found this link:
> http://www.qsl.net/iz7ath/web/02_brew/14_howto/02_clor/index.htm
>
> This guy regenerates ferric chloride, but that contradicts this link from
> the muriatic acid thread:
> http://www.smallsolar.org/workshop/etchant/index.htm
>
> - Copper Chloride has one important benefit that the other commonly used
> etchant chemicals (Ferric Chloride and Ammonium Persulphate) don't have:
> when it "wears out" it can be regenerated.
>
> So, before I nuke my back yard, can I regenerate ferric chloride? And if
> so, what would be a 'relatively' safe procedure?

If you add HCl and H2O2, it will form a mixture of ferric chloride and
cupric chloride. The proportion of cupric chloride will increase over time,
of course.

Leon

>
> Ok,
>
>
> So I googled and found this link:
> http://www.qsl.net/iz7ath/web/02_brew/14_howto/02_clor/index.htm
>
> This guy regenerates ferric chloride, but that contradicts this link
> from
> the muriatic acid thread:
> http://www.smallsolar.org/workshop/etchant/index.htm
>
> - Copper Chloride has one important benefit that the other commonly
> used
> etchant chemicals (Ferric Chloride and Ammonium Persulphate) don't
> have:
> when it "wears out" it can be regenerated.
>
> So, before I nuke my back yard, can I regenerate ferric chloride?
> And if
> so, what would be a 'relatively' safe procedure?
>
> Robert
> :)
>

> Ok,
>
> I finally got around to reading the thread about
> muriatic acid and wondered
> if I could do something with the spent FeCl I have
> been accumulating. I was
> planning on bringing it to the annual domestic waste
> collection done by the
> city, but I'd prefer to recycle it if at all
> possible.
>
> So I googled and found this link:
>

>
> This guy regenerates ferric chloride, but that
> contradicts this link from
> the muriatic acid thread:
> http://www.smallsolar.org/workshop/etchant/index.htm
>
> - Copper Chloride has one important benefit that the
> other commonly used
> etchant chemicals (Ferric Chloride and Ammonium
> Persulphate) don't have:
> when it "wears out" it can be regenerated.
>
> So, before I nuke my back yard, can I regenerate
> ferric chloride? And if
> so, what would be a 'relatively' safe procedure?
>
> Robert
> :)

>
> If you add muriatic (hydrochloric) acid and oxygenate
> it converts to copper chloride. Looking at the
> reactions described in
>
> http://artmondo.net/printworks/articles/ferric.htm,
> http://www.p-m-services.co.uk/ferric_chloride.htm and
> http://members.optusnet.com.au/~eseychell/PCB/etching_CuCl/index.html
>
> you'll find that with excess acid the iron turns into
> insoluble ferric hydroxide (rust) and falls out as
> sludge. What's left is the regeneratable CuCl2.
>
> I did this myself for my etch tank so I know it works.
> In the beginning it seems quite messy due to the rust
> depositing on the walls and bottom of the tank but
> careful decanting and a good scrub takes care of it.
>
> - YD.

>
> How about a bottle of compressed pure chlorine gas ? Just throw a hose
> going from the regulator mounted on the cylinder, to your bubble etcher,
> and let it rip. :) May not be a good idea to do this in the kitchen.

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De la part de Stefan Trethan
> Envoyé : juin 30 2006 04:24
> À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Regenerating Ferric Chloride
>
>
> I think if you want to kill yourself there are less painful ways ;-)
>
>
> ST

>
> I've once gotten a dose of ammonia (fridge) and another of chlorine (from
> the pool) and never want to breath toxic fumes like that, ever. I think
> each one cost me 5 years of my life each.
> I'm wary of mixing chemicals, so I'm taking the time to gather as much
> information on this process first. I'd even go so far as scrapping this
> FeCl and buying another gallon before screwing this up.
> Robert
> :)

>
> On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 14:54:28 +0200, Robert Hedan
> <robert.hedan@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > I've once gotten a dose of ammonia (fridge) and another of

> > the pool) and never want to breath toxic fumes like that, ever. I

> > each one cost me 5 years of my life each.
> > I'm wary of mixing chemicals, so I'm taking the time to gather as much
> > information on this process first. I'd even go so far as

> > FeCl and buying another gallon before screwing this up.
> > Robert
> > :)
>
>
> I would prefer to start with a "clean" CuCl batch anyway, what reason
> would one have to keep that horrible "stain in a bottle" in it? I mean
> does the FeCl actually do any good? Also you won't be able to see

> progress with it, normal CuCl is transparent enough if you place a

> behind the board (i found a small fluorescent light like sold for car
> repair works well).
>
> Regenerating CuCl is fairly safe. I mean the HCl is dangerous, sure,

> nothing like chlorine gas. Just wear adequate protection and have the
> proper respect towards the chemicals and you will be fine.
>
> ST

>
> In a message dated 6/30/2006 7:56:10 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
> robert.hedan@... writes:
>
> I'd even go so far as scrapping this FeCl and buying another gallon
> before
> screwing this up.<<
> And that'd PROBABLY be no more expensive than all the "stuff" you'd
> need to
> "regenerate"!
>
>

> don't know why this is turning into such a debate - yes, starting
> with cupric chloride would probably work better - but if you've
> already got the FeCl3 and don't mind, or have learned to control the
> mess, regenerating is much cheaper.

>
> YD wrote:
> >
> > If you add muriatic (hydrochloric) acid and oxygenate
> > it converts to copper chloride. Looking at the
> > reactions described in
> >
> > http://artmondo.net/printworks/articles/ferric.htm,
> > http://www.p-m-services.co.uk/ferric_chloride.htm and
> > http://members.optusnet.com.au/~eseychell/PCB/etching_CuCl/index.html
> >
> > you'll find that with excess acid the iron turns into
> > insoluble ferric hydroxide (rust) and falls out as
> > sludge. What's left is the regeneratable CuCl2.
> >
> > I did this myself for my etch tank so I know it works.
> > In the beginning it seems quite messy due to the rust
> > depositing on the walls and bottom of the tank but
> > careful decanting and a good scrub takes care of it.
> >
> > - YD.
>
>
> How about a bottle of compressed pure chlorine gas ? Just throw a hose
> going from the regulator mounted on the cylinder, to your bubble

> and let it rip. :) May not be a good idea to do this in the kitchen.
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "fenrir_co" <fenrir@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hedan <robert.hedan@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Ok,
> >
> >
> > So I googled and found this link:
> > http://www.qsl.net/iz7ath/web/02_brew/14_howto/02_clor/index.htm
> >
> > This guy regenerates ferric chloride, but that contradicts this link
> > from
> > the muriatic acid thread:
> > http://www.smallsolar.org/workshop/etchant/index.htm
> >
> > - Copper Chloride has one important benefit that the other commonly
> > used
> > etchant chemicals (Ferric Chloride and Ammonium Persulphate) don't
> > have:
> > when it "wears out" it can be regenerated.
> >
> > So, before I nuke my back yard, can I regenerate ferric chloride?
> > And if
> > so, what would be a 'relatively' safe procedure?
> >
> > Robert
> > :)
> >
>
> I regenerated Ferric Chloride with just muriatic acid at first. The
> result didn't etch as fast as new etchant, but worked. Eventually,
> however, I found that beauty supply strength H2O2 (40 Volume = 12%
> strength) would regenerate it far better. You can find it at Sally
> Beauty Supply if you are in the US, you may have difficulty finding
> anything over 20 volume elsewhere, try hairdresser and beauty supply
> shops that have hair products. I use about 32 oz per 2 gallons of
> etchant, so divide that up to find out how much to use. You should
> still add a little acid to keep the pH low. Maybe about a half a cup
> to a cup. I don't measure in much detail.
>
> Using the H2O2 will produce a LOT of foam and some heat, so make sure
> the etchant is in a sturdy container (I use a 5 gal bucket inside
> another 5 gal bucket) and don't add it too fast or it will 'boil
> over'. The resulting etchant works faster than fresh etchant from
> Radio Shack.
>

>
>
> Over the years, I've wondered about regenerating Ferric Chloride,
> too. One approach I've tied is reverse electroplating the Copper
> (from the Copper Chloride) out of the solution, replacing it with
> Iron. It seems to work, in that I definitely produced Copper on
> on the cathode, while the Iron anode was dissolved (Actually, my
> current density was a bit high, so I produced crystals of metallic
> Copper on the cathode). Of course, one concern is that you don't
> produce Chlorine gas (and, if you do, you want to make VERY sure
> you don't breathe it!).
>
> I don't remember how the resulting solution worked (It's been quite
> a number of years ago.), although my main idea at the time was
> removing the Copper from the spent solution (since dissolved Copper
> compounds are lethal to most biological life forms).
>
> Anyway, I don't know that I'd recommend this to anyone, but it may
> be something to think about (especially if there are any
> electrochemists in the group).
>
> Dave
>