Homebrew_PCBs

(Oops - a "tab" and a <cr> sent my first post before completion!)

Continuing...

PRINTERS / TONER USED
HP LaserJet 5L, original cartridge
Samgsung 1710, cartr. refilled with recommended toner from TonerKits.com


I made one print from each printer, on separate sheets from
the same package of Staples' paper, then measured:

a) the minimum temperature at which I could smear the
pattern with the iron (i.e., toner flows)
b) the minimum temperature at which decorative foil
would transfer to the toner (i.e., toner is 'tacky')

RESULTS
=======
HP LJ-5L Samsung
toner 99 C < t < 106 C 98 C < t < 101 C
smears (210F < t < 222F) (209F < t < 213F)

foil 107 C < t < 112 C 78 C < t < 83 C
sticks/ (225F < t < 233F) (172F < t < 181F)
transfers

Given the recommended fusing temps., I was surprised the
toner melting points were as low as they are.

Best,
James

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "dagmargoodboat"
<dagmargoodboat@...> wrote:

>
> (Oops - a "tab" and a <cr> sent my first post before completion!)

<snip>

<delurking>
Greetings all,
I see the first half of this post was lost, and that
Yahoo kindly reformatted my carefully-formatted 2nd
part as well. Sorry! I'll repeat here...

INTRO
Hi! I've been making the occasional toner transfer (TT)
board for >12 yrs, mostly with Press-N-Peel Blue and
a household iron. Lately I've used Staples' Picture
Paper, per Thomas Goatee.

After cruising the archives here, I procurred a GBC
DocuSeal 95 laminator for $5, hoping to reduce
some of the process variables.

Using Staples' Picture Paper, my first try through
the laminator gave a perfect--and I do mean perfect--
transfer of a junk board with some 0.006" lines onto
0.020" double-sided circuit board. Very nice.

The second attempt--on a real board to be etched--
was not perfect though. Traces had a few gaps, and
some pitted / ragged edges. Mostly okay, but not
acceptable. I'm using 0402 parts, and need fine
lines. Subsequent trials have not improved.

Accordingly, I've finally been moved to
troubleshooting the matter with rigor, seeking
a more definitive answer.

My first thought was insufficient heat; the GBC
heating stage measures 118 C (245 F) on its
"laminate" setting, 145 C (285 F) on "foil".

The GBC's "laminate" setting wasn't hot enough to
transfer any toner at all, but "foil" worked quite
well. I was surprised, but 145 C is apparently
ample. Increasing the temp. as high as 160 C
(320 F) doesn't affect or improve the transfer.

My troubleshooting is ongoing; the purpose of
this post is to share the toner melting points
I've measured.

TONER MELTING POINT MEASUREMENT


EQUIPMENT
Household iron, instrumented with a thermocouple,
and insulated to keep the heel plate temp. decently
isothermal.


PRINTERS
. 1) HP LaserJet 5L, original cartridge
. 2) Samgsung 1710, cartridge refilled with recommended
. toner from TonerKits.com

PROCEDURE
I made one print from each printer, on separate sheets
from the same package of Staples' paper, then measured:

. a) the minimum temperature at which I could smear the
. pattern with the iron (i.e., toner flows)
. b) the minimum temperature at which decorative foil
. would transfer to the toner (i.e. toner is 'tacky')

(Rather than nail the exact melting points, I took data
until the actual temp. was reasonably bracketed, hence
the ranges reported below.)


RESULTS
=======
. HP LJ-5L Samsung
. ---------------- ----------------
toner 99 C < t < 106 C 98 C < t < 101 C
smears @ (210F < t < 222F) (209F < t < 213F)

foil 107 C < t < 112 C 78 C < t < 83 C
sticks/ (225F < t < 233F) (172F < t < 181F)
transfers

Given the commonly recommended fusing temps, I was surprised
at these low melting points, and think it may have
broader implications for the fusing problem in general.

Sorry for the newbie posting hiccups, and hope this version's
format survives better.

Best,
James

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De la part de dagmargoodboat
> Envoyé : juin 28 2006 21:13
> À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner melting points, pt. 2
>

...

> Using Staples' Picture Paper, my first try through
> the laminator gave a perfect--and I do mean perfect--
> transfer of a junk board with some 0.006" lines onto
> 0.020" double-sided circuit board. Very nice.
>
> The second attempt--on a real board to be etched--
> was not perfect though. Traces had a few gaps, and
> some pitted / ragged edges. Mostly okay, but not
> acceptable. I'm using 0402 parts, and need fine
> lines. Subsequent trials have not improved.

...

>
> Best,
> James

Welcome James,

Since you were able to get perfect results on the scrap board, I would
suggest looking more into the preparation of the PCB surface. The scrap
board might have had better 'stiction' than the newer board.

My prep:

- XXXX fine steel wool, scrubbed in both directions, X and Y.
- clean with acetone.
- clean with 99.9% isopropyl alcohol.
- wipe alcohol residue dry.

This cleaning process is extremely exaggerated, but I never have to start a
board over 'cause toner doesn't stick (I'm using Pulsar Paper and a GBC H300
laminator).

Robert
:)

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hedan <robert.hedan@...>
wrote:

>
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De la part de dagmargoodboat
> > Envoyé : juin 28 2006 21:13
> > À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner melting points, pt. 2
> >
> ...
> > Using Staples' Picture Paper, my first try through
> > the laminator gave a perfect--and I do mean perfect--
> > transfer of a junk board with some 0.006" lines onto
> > 0.020" double-sided circuit board. Very nice.
> >
> > The second attempt--on a real board to be etched--
> > was not perfect though. Traces had a few gaps, and
> > some pitted / ragged edges. Mostly okay, but not
> > acceptable. I'm using 0402 parts, and need fine
> > lines. Subsequent trials have not improved.
> ...
> >
> > Best,
> > James
>
>
> Welcome James,
>
> Since you were able to get perfect results on the scrap board, I would
> suggest looking more into the preparation of the PCB surface. The scrap
> board might have had better 'stiction' than the newer board.
>
> My prep:
>
> - XXXX fine steel wool, scrubbed in both directions, X and Y.
> - clean with acetone.
> - clean with 99.9% isopropyl alcohol.
> - wipe alcohol residue dry.
>
> This cleaning process is extremely exaggerated, but I never have to

start a

> board over 'cause toner doesn't stick (I'm using Pulsar Paper and a

GBC H300

> laminator).
>
> Robert
> :)

Thanks Robert,

I thought that too, and decided to test the idea. Wanting
to eliminate board prep, as well as transfer pressure,
thermal mass, temperature, and a bunch of other variables
from the equation, I cut another identical image--printed
on the same panel--then tried adhering the decorative
transfer foil I'd mentioned before.

Namely, I wanted to first answer the question "Will the
toner adhere to anything?" Foil adhesion is quite easy
compared to transferring toner to a PCB.

I found the toner does *not* always fully accept the
decorative foil. The foil shows the same defects as the
failed-transfer boards. To rule out defects in the foil,
I tried shifting it around, exposing new areas to the
bare toner areas. Still no transfer.

I'm considering whether there might be some sort of toner
surface contamination. The failed panels, however, came
from the same sheet as the perfect panel. Still thinking
about this...

My board prep *was* slightly lax--stainless steel
potscrubber, with soap, then Comet cleanser, towel
dry--but it's robust enough to cut through the dull
oxide and leave a mirror finish on the Cu. Same
procedure as used on the "perfect" trial board.

I'll post any fixes I devise.

Thanks again Robert,
James

I have not followed the thread, so maybe this is not a suitable answer.

Some printers use fuser oil on the fuser roller. maybe your toner surface
is contaminated with that?

ST


On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 04:58:53 +0200, dagmargoodboat
<dagmargoodboat@...> wrote:

>
> Thanks Robert,
> I thought that too, and decided to test the idea. Wanting
> to eliminate board prep, as well as transfer pressure,
> thermal mass, temperature, and a bunch of other variables
> from the equation, I cut another identical image--printed
> on the same panel--then tried adhering the decorative
> transfer foil I'd mentioned before.
> Namely, I wanted to first answer the question "Will the
> toner adhere to anything?" Foil adhesion is quite easy
> compared to transferring toner to a PCB.
> I found the toner does *not* always fully accept the
> decorative foil. The foil shows the same defects as the
> failed-transfer boards. To rule out defects in the foil,
> I tried shifting it around, exposing new areas to the
> bare toner areas. Still no transfer.
> I'm considering whether there might be some sort of toner
> surface contamination. The failed panels, however, came
> from the same sheet as the perfect panel. Still thinking
> about this...
> My board prep *was* slightly lax--stainless steel
> potscrubber, with soap, then Comet cleanser, towel
> dry--but it's robust enough to cut through the dull
> oxide and leave a mirror finish on the Cu. Same
> procedure as used on the "perfect" trial board.
> I'll post any fixes I devise.
> Thanks again Robert,
> James

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De la part de dagmargoodboat
> Envoyé : juin 28 2006 22:59
> À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : RE : [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner melting points, pt. 2
>
>

...

> My board prep *was* slightly lax--stainless steel
> potscrubber, with soap, then Comet cleanser, towel
> dry--but it's robust enough to cut through the dull
> oxide and leave a mirror finish on the Cu. Same
> procedure as used on the "perfect" trial board.
>
> I'll post any fixes I devise.
>
> Thanks again Robert,
> James

James,

I recommend at least either acetone or 90% + isopopyl alcohol to remove any
leftovers, and then wipe that dry. I think Comet leaves a residue behind,
you might not have wiped it dry evenly between the 2 tests. The last time I
used Comet on the sink, it leaves a very shiny and 'slippery' finish, it's
like a wax effect.

Robert
:)

Robert wrote:

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hedan <robert.hedan@...>
wrote:

>
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De la part de dagmargoodboat
> > Envoyé : juin 28 2006 22:59
> > À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > Objet : RE : [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner melting points, pt. 2
> >
> >
> ...
> > My board prep *was* slightly lax--stainless steel
> > potscrubber, with soap, then Comet cleanser, towel
> > dry--but it's robust enough to cut through the dull
> > oxide and leave a mirror finish on the Cu. Same
> > procedure as used on the "perfect" trial board.
> >
> > I'll post any fixes I devise.
> >
> > Thanks again Robert,
> > James
>
>
> James,
>
> I recommend at least either acetone or 90% + isopopyl alcohol to

remove any

> leftovers, and then wipe that dry. I think Comet leaves a residue

behind,

> you might not have wiped it dry evenly between the 2 tests. The

last time I

> used Comet on the sink, it leaves a very shiny and 'slippery'

finish, it's

> like a wax effect.
>
> Robert
> :)

And Stefan suggested:

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

>
> I have not followed the thread, so maybe this is not a suitable answer.
>
> Some printers use fuser oil on the fuser roller. maybe your toner

surface

> is contaminated with that?
>
> ST

Thanks to both--what a nice group this is! Here's my update:

I've improved pcb copper preparation by rubbing to ensure complete
removal of any cleanser films, and adding a wipe with isopropol alcohol.

My earlier work measuring toner melting points suggests laminator
heat is not a problem. To double-check, and to eliminate questions of
adequate pressure, I transferred the toner first with the laminator,
then pressed hard with the edge of a household iron, working the surfaces.

After soaking and removing the paper, I "flash fused" the remaining
toner by heating the boards to ~180 C (360 F) for five or ten minutes.

Despite the extra steps, results are not much different. I
transferred and etched 7 more boards. Toner transfer isn't super --
the 0.006" ((0.15 mm) traces show one or two gaps per board, which I
touch up with a Sharpie marker, then bake to cure before etching.

John Popelish's float etching method (floating the boards on FeCl
ethant) worked a treat, saving over-etching in a number of places.

If these were 0.010" lines I think the boards would be superb as
they are; the defects that ruin a 0.006" trace would be much less
important. Fortunately these are tiny boards with only a few traces,
so I can touch them up and still get good prototypes without too much
trouble. It is nerve-wracking though, to try and paint 0.008" /
0.006" / 0.008" space / trace / space rules with a Sharpie!

Robert--since my tests transferring the toner patterns on Staples'
Picture Paper leave gaps even on decorative foil when I try, I think
this excludes copper surface prep. as a variable (though I did upgrade
my procedure with some of your suggestions, as noted above).

Stefan--yes, I still suspect (but cannot yet prove) something's
wrong with the toner print, either dust, fingerprints, oil from the
fuser rollers, or perhaps just from not using them immediately
(oxidation?).

I've a new test for toner adhesion, the "Rip Test." After
transferring the toner, I just rip the paper off, no soaking. I
discovered that, surprisingly, this left as much toner as gently
soaking and rubbing. I conclude that, once transferred, the toner
grabs pretty well, and is tougher than I thought.

So, that's the update. Despite lack of a solution to my immediate
situation, I'm encouraged that the toner's adhesion strength and ease
of melting suggest that truly excellent 6/6/6 boards are possible.

Thanks again for all the suggestions guys.

Cheers,
James

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De la part de dagmargoodboat
> Envoyé : juillet 3 2006 13:27
> À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : RE : RE : [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner melting points, pt. 2
>
>
> Thanks to both--what a nice group this is! Here's my update:

...

> Thanks again for all the suggestions guys.
>
> Cheers,
> James

James, what paper were you using again?

Robert
:)

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hedan <robert.hedan@...>
wrote:

>
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De la part de dagmargoodboat
> > Envoyé : juillet 3 2006 13:27
> > À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > Objet : RE : RE : [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner melting points, pt. 2
> >
> >
> > Thanks to both--what a nice group this is! Here's my update:
> ...
> > Thanks again for all the suggestions guys.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > James
>
>
>
> James, what paper were you using again?
>
> Robert
> :)

Staples Picture Paper (Inkjet photo paper, as recommended by Thomas
Goatee's website)

James :-)

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "dagmargoodboat"
<dagmargoodboat@...> wrote:

>
> Robert wrote:
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hedan <robert.hedan@>
> wrote:
> >
> > > -----Message d'origine-----
> > > De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > > [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De la part de

dagmargoodboat

> > > Envoyé : juin 28 2006 22:59
> > > À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > > Objet : RE : [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner melting points, pt. 2
> > >
> > >
> > ...
> > > My board prep *was* slightly lax--stainless steel
> > > potscrubber, with soap, then Comet cleanser, towel
> > > dry--but it's robust enough to cut through the dull
> > > oxide and leave a mirror finish on the Cu. Same
> > > procedure as used on the "perfect" trial board.
> > >
> > > I'll post any fixes I devise.
> > >
> > > Thanks again Robert,
> > > James
> >
> >
> > James,
> >
> > I recommend at least either acetone or 90% + isopopyl alcohol to
> remove any
> > leftovers, and then wipe that dry. I think Comet leaves a residue
> behind,
> > you might not have wiped it dry evenly between the 2 tests. The
> last time I
> > used Comet on the sink, it leaves a very shiny and 'slippery'
> finish, it's
> > like a wax effect.
> >
> > Robert
> > :)
>
>
> And Stefan suggested:
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
> <stefan_trethan@> wrote:
> >
> > I have not followed the thread, so maybe this is not a suitable

answer.

> >
> > Some printers use fuser oil on the fuser roller. maybe your toner
> surface
> > is contaminated with that?
> >
> > ST
>
> Thanks to both--what a nice group this is! Here's my update:
>
> I've improved pcb copper preparation by rubbing to ensure complete
> removal of any cleanser films, and adding a wipe with isopropol

alcohol.

>
> My earlier work measuring toner melting points suggests laminator
> heat is not a problem. To double-check, and to eliminate questions

of

> adequate pressure, I transferred the toner first with the laminator,
> then pressed hard with the edge of a household iron, working the

surfaces.

>
> After soaking and removing the paper, I "flash fused" the

remaining

> toner by heating the boards to ~180 C (360 F) for five or ten

minutes.

>
> Despite the extra steps, results are not much different. I
> transferred and etched 7 more boards. Toner transfer isn't super --
> the 0.006" ((0.15 mm) traces show one or two gaps per board, which I
> touch up with a Sharpie marker, then bake to cure before etching.
>
> John Popelish's float etching method (floating the boards on FeCl
> ethant) worked a treat, saving over-etching in a number of places.
>
> If these were 0.010" lines I think the boards would be superb as
> they are; the defects that ruin a 0.006" trace would be much less
> important. Fortunately these are tiny boards with only a few

traces,

> so I can touch them up and still get good prototypes without too

much

> trouble. It is nerve-wracking though, to try and paint 0.008" /
> 0.006" / 0.008" space / trace / space rules with a Sharpie!
>
> Robert--since my tests transferring the toner patterns on Staples'
> Picture Paper leave gaps even on decorative foil when I try, I think
> this excludes copper surface prep. as a variable (though I did

upgrade

> my procedure with some of your suggestions, as noted above).
>
> Stefan--yes, I still suspect (but cannot yet prove) something's
> wrong with the toner print, either dust, fingerprints, oil from the
> fuser rollers, or perhaps just from not using them immediately
> (oxidation?).
>
> I've a new test for toner adhesion, the "Rip Test." After
> transferring the toner, I just rip the paper off, no soaking. I
> discovered that, surprisingly, this left as much toner as gently
> soaking and rubbing. I conclude that, once transferred, the toner
> grabs pretty well, and is tougher than I thought.
>
> So, that's the update. Despite lack of a solution to my immediate
> situation, I'm encouraged that the toner's adhesion strength and

ease

> of melting suggest that truly excellent 6/6/6 boards are possible.
>
> Thanks again for all the suggestions guys.
>
> Cheers,
> James
>

James

Try the following to see if you can improve your toner adhesion:

Soon after you have your laser print and just before you wish to make
the toner transfer, take a grease and lint free cloth and wipe the
image with isopropyl alcohol. Only a minute amount of toner pigment
will colour your cloth. Let it dry (a few seconds) and then do it
again. No pigment should be seen to be staining the wet cloth this
time.
This should degrease the toner surface to some extent but not damage
the image.
All the best.

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De la part de dagmargoodboat
> Envoyé : juillet 3 2006 18:13
> À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : RE : RE : RE : [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner melting points, pt. 2
>
>
> Staples Picture Paper (Inkjet photo paper, as recommended
> by Thomas Goatee's website)
>
> James :-)

Do you have a product # in case it is different here?

Robert
:)

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hedan <robert.hedan@...>
wrote:

>
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De la part de dagmargoodboat
> > Envoyé : juillet 3 2006 18:13
> > À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > Objet : RE : RE : RE : [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner melting points, pt. 2
> >
> >
> > Staples Picture Paper (Inkjet photo paper, as recommended
> > by Thomas Goatee's website)
> >
> > James :-)
>
>
> Do you have a product # in case it is different here?
>
> Robert
> :)

Yes. This is from Thomas Gootee's site
http://www.fullnet.com/u/tomg/gooteepc.htm
(sorry for misspelling his name)

30-sheet package: Staples' SKU (Item Number) for the "Picture Paper"
(30-sheet package): 471861, UPC barcode: 7 18103 02238 5

I find this paper accepts toner *very* well, yielding sharp, clear
images. Removal is not as easy as what people report for other
papers--I soak just a few minutes, immediately peel off the upper
layers, then soak another 5 minutes.

Thereafter, I find this paper leaves a tough blue-gray film on the
transferred toner areas, and in patches in-between. In general, this
seems to improve the toner's durability during etching, but
(undesirably) fills in small gaps between traces and drill holes in
pads. Careful rubbing is needed to remove it.

Best,
James

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "warrenbrayshaw"
<warrenbrayshaw@...> wrote:

[snip description of my experiments]

> Try the following to see if you can improve your toner adhesion:
>
> Soon after you have your laser print and just before you wish to make
> the toner transfer, take a grease and lint free cloth and wipe the
> image with isopropyl alcohol. Only a minute amount of toner pigment
> will colour your cloth. Let it dry (a few seconds) and then do it
> again. No pigment should be seen to be staining the wet cloth this
> time.
> This should degrease the toner surface to some extent but not damage
> the image.
> All the best.

Good idea--I'll try it and report back. Thanks!

Best,
James

P.S. Meanwhile, no one has commented on my toner melting point
measurements. Am I the only one astonished at how easily they melt?
Or maybe Yahoo's format-mangling just made my tables unreadable? -j

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De la part de dagmargoodboat
> Envoyé : juillet 5 2006 22:53
> À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner melting points, pt. 2
>
>
> Yes. This is from Thomas Gootee's site
> http://www.fullnet.com/u/tomg/gooteepc.htm
> (sorry for misspelling his name)
>
> 30-sheet package: Staples' SKU (Item Number) for the "Picture
> Paper" (30-sheet package): 471861, UPC barcode: 7 18103 02238 5
>

... Careful rubbing is needed to remove it.

>
> Best,
> James

Ah darn, I knew there had to be a catch. I'm looking for a "no-fuss"
solution.

Robert
:(

You might also try using denatured alcohol - I've personally found
that it degreases better than isopropyl (isopropane). Isopropyl
doesn't like to remove silicone oils, for instance, which is what
you'd usually find on a fuser. Good Luck! I'm going to try my first
transfer later today, and I'll need some luck myself, I think.

>
> Good idea--I'll try it and report back. Thanks!
>
> Best,
> James
>
> P.S. Meanwhile, no one has commented on my toner melting point
> measurements. Am I the only one astonished at how easily they melt?
> Or maybe Yahoo's format-mangling just made my tables unreadable? -j
>

If you don't have denatured alcohol. VODKA works fine....

It's for a good cause

Myc

On 7/6/06, tomservo_9504 <tomservo_9504@...> wrote:
>
> You might also try using denatured alcohol - I've personally found
> that it degreases better than isopropyl (isopropane). Isopropyl
> doesn't like to remove silicone oils, for instance, which is what
> you'd usually find on a fuser. Good Luck! I'm going to try my first
> transfer later today, and I'll need some luck myself, I think.
>
>
> >
> > Good idea--I'll try it and report back. Thanks!
> >
> > Best,
> > James
> >
> > P.S. Meanwhile, no one has commented on my toner melting point
> > measurements. Am I the only one astonished at how easily they melt?
> > Or maybe Yahoo's format-mangling just made my tables unreadable? -j
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]