Homebrew_PCBs

A quick success story, and return of information to the group.

I am new to electronics as a hobby, and of course needed to be able to
produce PCB's. I just spent 3 days testing different papers and trying
to get a successful combination of my printers and paper. A number of
different papers, including the Staples paper recommended by some
postings here, all failed. Some miserably, others pinholes. (I also
tried parchment paper.) The good news, I have now made 3 perfect
boards at 10mil. The printer is an older HP 4L, and the successful
paper is "Epson Photo Quality Glossy Paper" #S041124 for Inkjets. The
paper just about falls off after 5 minutes in water, and leaves all,
repeat all, toner on the copper. I have not had a single dot of toner
stay on the paper yet.

If this helps anyone great.

Thanks to everyone in this group. I went back and read perhaps a
thousand messages in preparation for the experiments. The information
shared by all was incredibly helpful!!

Next steps are to try tinning with the paste reccomended by Derek.

Thanks, Mark

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De la part de Mark Merclean
> Envoyé : juin 27 2006 09:10
> À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner Transfer success
>
>

... the successful paper is "Epson Photo Quality Glossy Paper"

> #S041124 for Inkjets. The paper just about falls off after 5
> minutes in water, and leaves all, repeat all, toner on the
> copper. I have not had a single dot of toner stay on the paper yet.

...

> Thanks, Mark

I tried Epson S041731 with mediocre results. I have a Staples gift card
lying around, perfect to go get a pack of S041124. I hope the toner I use
produces the same results you were able to get.

Will report back, I have 2 PCBs to do today.

Robert
:)

Robert Hedan wrote:

>Mark Merclean said:
>> ... the successful paper is "Epson Photo Quality Glossy Paper"
>> #S041124 for Inkjets. The paper just about falls off after 5
>> minutes in water, and leaves all, repeat all, toner on the
>> copper. I have not had a single dot of toner stay on the paper yet.

[...]

> I tried Epson S041731 with mediocre results. I have a Staples gift card
> lying around, perfect to go get a pack of S041124. I hope the toner I use
> produces the same results you were able to get.
>
> Will report back, I have 2 PCBs to do today.

I've got some Epson S041732 "DURAbrite Photo Paper" which seems to be the
UK/EU A4-size variant of the S041731, "Made in Japan". I guess I won't bother
trying that if it doesn't work...

I've also got some Epson S041706 "Premium Glossy Photo Paper", again made in
Japan - has anyone tried that?

Thanks.
--
Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G ViewFinder
philpem@... | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G
http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De la part de Philip Pemberton
> Envoyé : juin 28 2006 11:02
> À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : Re: RE : [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner Transfer success
>
>
> I've got some Epson S041732 "DURAbrite Photo Paper" which
> seems to be the
> UK/EU A4-size variant of the S041731, "Made in Japan". I
> guess I won't bother
> trying that if it doesn't work...

...

>
> Thanks.
> --
> Phil.

I just tried another print, just in case I had my head on backwards on my
1st attempt. Same results, the toner does not stick perfectly to the paper.
I have several broken traces and I don't want to have to touch-up with a pen
before etching. I'm not going to settle for so-so resutls when there are
papers out there that work perfectly.

Robert
:)

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hedan <robert.hedan@...>
wrote:

>
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De la part de Philip Pemberton
> > Envoy� : juin 28 2006 11:02
> > � : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > Objet : Re: RE : [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner Transfer success
> >
> >
> > I've got some Epson S041732 "DURAbrite Photo Paper" which
> > seems to be the
> > UK/EU A4-size variant of the S041731, "Made in Japan". I
> > guess I won't bother
> > trying that if it doesn't work...
> ...
> >
> > Thanks.
> > --
> > Phil.
>
>
> I just tried another print, just in case I had my head on backwards

on my

> 1st attempt. Same results, the toner does not stick perfectly to

the paper.

> I have several broken traces and I don't want to have to touch-up

with a pen

> before etching. I'm not going to settle for so-so resutls when

there are

> papers out there that work perfectly.
>
> Robert
> :)

You're making progress, Robert. Thanks for the update.
I like your attitude. I have some "Staples picture paper for inkjet
printers" barcode 7 18103 02238 5" that I'm going to try with my laser
printer.

Alan

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De la part de alan00463
> Envoyé : juin 28 2006 17:25
> À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : Re: RE : RE : [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner Transfer success
>
> You're making progress, Robert. Thanks for the update.
> I like your attitude. I have some "Staples picture paper for inkjet
> printers" barcode 7 18103 02238 5" that I'm going to try with
> my laser printer.
>
> Alan

Another thing people have to realize is that what works for me may not work
for them. We have many variables in this process: printer model, condition
of printer fuser, toner age, cleanliness of PCB, local humidity levels and
where the moon is for all I know.

I needed quick results for this particular batch so I proceeded with Pulsar
Paper. I need these 2 PCBs to complete a prototype and couldn't wait
further delays. But I'm going to continue testing different papers until I
can get back into developing direct printing using my Epson C84.

Robert
:)

> RobertH wrote:
> <snip>
> We have many variables in this process:
> printer model, condition of printer
> fuser, toner age, cleanliness of PCB,
> local humidity levels and where the
> moon is for all I know.

And don't forget - freshness of the goats.

and position of the moon.....

add to the list of variables: the type of toner.

You just have to find the right combination that works for you.

Myc

On 6/28/06, Andrew <andrewm1973@...> wrote:
>
> > RobertH wrote:
> > <snip>
>
> > We have many variables in this process:
> > printer model, condition of printer
> > fuser, toner age, cleanliness of PCB,
> > local humidity levels and where the
> > moon is for all I know.
>
> And don't forget - freshness of the goats.
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Myc Holmes wrote:

> and position of the moon.....
>
> add to the list of variables: the type of toner.
>
> You just have to find the right combination that works for you.

I've just tried the Epson "Premium glossy photo paper", which appears to have
a plastic coating on it. That coating seems to prevent it from absorbing
water, which means it won't come off the board after it's done. Plus it's
probably way too thick (255gsm), which makes it a little hard to get the heat
through the paper and to the toner. Apparently the Photo Quality Glossy Paper
is 140gsm; somewhere between thick copier paper and thin card.

I've got a HP sample pack here that I'm going to have a play with. Hopefully
some of the paper in there will work...

Does anyone want to swap 19 sheets of Epson S041706 10x15cm premium glossy for
some of the Photo Quality Glossy Paper? Nah, didn't think so...

--
Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G ViewFinder
philpem@... | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G
http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G

I think I might have come up with a quicker way to identify the plastic based
papers - heat. I found this out by accident - there was a piece of Epson photo
paper stuck in my soldering stand, and the soldering iron touched it and
burned it. That got me wondering...

So I attacked a sheet of copier paper, and some samples of inkjet paper with
my Microjet mini heat gun (which usually gets used for shrinking heatshrink).
The copier paper and Staples photo paper burned, but the gloss layer didn't
deform a great deal.

The Epson Premium paper, on the other hand (which seems to be resin or plastic
based) burned, but the back and front bubbled quite severely before it started
burning. Around the burn area, there's a lot of bubbling, very similar to the
sort of bubbling you see on burning plastic.

It seems the "premium" photo papers are more likely to be plastic-based than
the standard photo papers, based on my tests:

HP Premium Photo Paper, C6040A Plastic based
HP Photo Paper, C1847A Wood based
HP Coated Paper, 51634Z Wood based
Epson Premium, S041706 Plastic based
Epson Durabrite, S041732 Feels plastic based
Staples Inkjet Gloss Paper, 153458 Wood based

FYI, the HP Coated paper has the HP logo printed in the corner on one side.
That's the uncoated side. The coated side should look brighter and smoother,
and appears to be a clay-based coating.

Anyone care to comment? Besides the obvious stupidity of burning paper, I
mean. As the saying goes, "don't try this at home"....

--
Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G ViewFinder
philpem@... | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G
http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Philip Pemberton <philpem@...>
wrote:

>
> I think I might have come up with a quicker way to identify the

plastic based

> papers - heat. I found this out by accident - there was a piece of

Epson photo

> paper stuck in my soldering stand, and the soldering iron touched it

and

> burned it. That got me wondering...
>
> So I attacked a sheet of copier paper, and some samples of inkjet

paper with

> my Microjet mini heat gun (which usually gets used for shrinking

heatshrink).

> The copier paper and Staples photo paper burned, but the gloss layer

didn't

> deform a great deal.
>
> The Epson Premium paper, on the other hand (which seems to be resin

or plastic

> based) burned, but the back and front bubbled quite severely before

it started

> burning. Around the burn area, there's a lot of bubbling, very

similar to the

> sort of bubbling you see on burning plastic.
>
> It seems the "premium" photo papers are more likely to be

plastic-based than

> the standard photo papers, based on my tests:
>
> HP Premium Photo Paper, C6040A Plastic based
> HP Photo Paper, C1847A Wood based
> HP Coated Paper, 51634Z Wood based
> Epson Premium, S041706 Plastic based
> Epson Durabrite, S041732 Feels plastic based
> Staples Inkjet Gloss Paper, 153458 Wood based
>
> FYI, the HP Coated paper has the HP logo printed in the corner on

one side.

> That's the uncoated side. The coated side should look brighter and

smoother,

> and appears to be a clay-based coating.
>
> Anyone care to comment? Besides the obvious stupidity of burning

paper, I

> mean. As the saying goes, "don't try this at home"....

Okay, so what are the implications of this to the toner transfer
process? What conclusions do you draw? And do they apply to using a
laser printer or to using an inkjet printer?

Are any of the papers you tested any better than the glossy circulars
inserted into the weekend newspaper?

alan00463 wrote:

> Okay, so what are the implications of this to the toner transfer
> process?

Based on a few experiments, the plastic-based papers will not dissolve in
water. At all. The plastic coating/impregnation stops the paper absorbing
water. The same applies to the glossy coating on the front side of the paper.

> What conclusions do you draw?

Again based on experimental data, the wood-based papers are the only ones
suitable for toner transfer.

> And do they apply to using a
> laser printer or to using an inkjet printer?

Laser.
For inkjet printing, "anything works". The gloss coating will absorb ink, and
toner sits on the surface as normal, but when you try and remove the sheet of
paper after transferring it, the plastic migrates through the glossy coating
and sticks the paper to the board in a way that makes it impossible to remove
without lifting or otherwise destroying the transferred toner.

> Are any of the papers you tested any better than the glossy circulars
> inserted into the weekend newspaper?

I've never tried the 'glossy circulars' - I don't tend to buy newspapers.

Thanks.
--
Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G ViewFinder
philpem@... | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G
http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G