Homebrew PCBs

Hi,

Although I have been a lifetime user (addict) to Ferrice Chloride, I
would like to try something a bit cleaner.

Can anyone advise where I can purchase small quantities of Ammonium
Persulphate in the UK ?

When I asked my local chemist about it she looked at me as is I was a
serial poisoner !

Cheers

Stewart
G3RXQ

> Stewart wrote:
> Although I have been a lifetime user (addict)
> to Ferrice Chloride, I would like to try
> something a bit cleaner.
> 
> Can anyone advise where I can purchase small
> quantities of Ammonium Persulphate in the UK ?
> 
> When I asked my local chemist about it she
> looked at me as is I was a serial poisoner !

After having a many year addiction to Amonium
Persulphate I recently kicked the monkey and
found a new religion.

I now use Cupperic Chloride and will never
again look back.

It is cheap, easy to make and never runs out.

There are several good resources on the web
for how to make and use it.

It's like stepping up from codeine to smack.

HOWEVER - if you only etch one board in a
blue moon - Amonia Persulphate or FeCl are
probably better ideas.

In the UK you will be able to get either
from RS components.

(www dot rscomponents dot com )

On Tue, 06 Jun 2006 08:28:21 +0200, stewart_bakeruk  
<stewart@...> wrote:

>
> When I asked my local chemist about it she looked at me as is I was a
> serial poisoner !
> Cheers
> Stewart
> G3RXQ


Either a chemical supply store or electronics supply store having pcb  
stuff. Both will see no reason to give you strange looks, the second  
usually sees fit to write a larger bill than the first.

ST

----- Original Message ----- 

From: stewart_bakeruk 
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 7:28 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Ammonium Persulphate


Hi,

Although I have been a lifetime user (addict) to Ferrice Chloride, I
would like to try something a bit cleaner.

Can anyone advise where I can purchase small quantities of Ammonium
Persulphate in the UK ?

When I asked my local chemist about it she looked at me as is I was a
serial poisoner !

I think that Mega Electronics sells it.

Leon

Thanks to all of you who replied so promptly to my request.
I now have some lines of enquiry to follow.

Cheers & Beers
Stewart
G3RXQ
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "stewart_bakeruk" <stewart@...>
wrote:

>
> Hi,
> 
> Although I have been a lifetime user (addict) to Ferrice Chloride, I
> would like to try something a bit cleaner.
> 
> Can anyone advise where I can purchase small quantities of Ammonium
> Persulphate in the UK ?
> 
> When I asked my local chemist about it she looked at me as is I was a
> serial poisoner !
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Stewart
> G3RXQ
>

On Tue, 06 Jun 2006 08:51:03 +0200, Andrew <andrewm1973@...> wrote:

>
> HOWEVER - if you only etch one board in a
> blue moon - Amonia Persulphate or FeCl are
> probably better ideas.


I wouldn't even be sure of that.
There's no disadvantage of CuCl that i can see, so why would the others be  
better?
As long as you have enough spare space to store your tank and two bottles  
of regenerating chemicals it really seems a good etchant. Of course if one  
can get the other etchants easier....

ST

> > andrewm wrote:
> > HOWEVER - if you only etch one board in a
> > blue moon - Amonia Persulphate or FeCl are
> > probably better ideas.
 
> ST wrote:
> I wouldn't even be sure of that.
> There's no disadvantage of CuCl that i can
> see, so why would the others be better?
>
> As long as you have enough spare space to
> store your tank and two bottles  of
> regenerating chemicals it really seems a
> good etchant. Of course if one can get the
> other etchants easier....

It takes some time to make.
It takes some time to look after before use.
As you pointed out it takes some space.
Vapours from it can wreak things.
It does not etch as well as FeCl in an air
    agitated tank.  (line resolution)
You can't see the board like Amonia
    Persulphate. (which may be good thing if
    you only do a few boards and are not too
    familiar with etching)
Your neighbours look at you funny and call 
    the anti-terrorisim hotline when you are
    using it outside.

There will be some point where it is more
sensible to mix up disposable etchant and
then dispose of it.

That point might be one board in six months.
That point might be one board in two years.

I dont know where that point is - but it
will be somewhere.

For me - I am well above the point where CuCl
is a good idea and I love it very much (and
may marry it if Canberra changed the laws)

G'Day Andrew

As you mentioned Canberra, could you tell me your source for the peroxide? 
I have no problem locating the acid, coutesy of swimming pool shops and 
hardware outlets but I have yet to embark on the search for a good source of 
peroxide in Oz.

Thanks

Bill

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 8:50 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Ammonium Persulphate


>> > andrewm wrote:
>> > HOWEVER - if you only etch one board in a
>> > blue moon - Amonia Persulphate or FeCl are
>> > probably better ideas.
>
>> ST wrote:
>> I wouldn't even be sure of that.
>> There's no disadvantage of CuCl that i can
>> see, so why would the others be better?
>>
>> As long as you have enough spare space to
>> store your tank and two bottles  of
>> regenerating chemicals it really seems a
>> good etchant. Of course if one can get the
>> other etchants easier....
>
> It takes some time to make.
> It takes some time to look after before use.
> As you pointed out it takes some space.
> Vapours from it can wreak things.
> It does not etch as well as FeCl in an air
>    agitated tank.  (line resolution)
> You can't see the board like Amonia
>    Persulphate. (which may be good thing if
>    you only do a few boards and are not too
>    familiar with etching)
> Your neighbours look at you funny and call
>    the anti-terrorisim hotline when you are
>    using it outside.
>
> There will be some point where it is more
> sensible to mix up disposable etchant and
> then dispose of it.
>
> That point might be one board in six months.
> That point might be one board in two years.
>
> I dont know where that point is - but it
> will be somewhere.
>
> For me - I am well above the point where CuCl
> is a good idea and I love it very much (and
> may marry it if Canberra changed the laws)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and 
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Swimming Pool shops - It's called "shock" the brand I find around here is called baquil. it's 27%

JT

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bill Maxwell 
  To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 8:11 PM
  Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Ammonium Persulphate


  G'Day Andrew

  As you mentioned Canberra, could you tell me your source for the peroxide? 
  I have no problem locating the acid, coutesy of swimming pool shops and 
  hardware outlets but I have yet to embark on the search for a good source of 
  peroxide in Oz.

  Thanks

  Bill

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...>
  To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
  Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 8:50 AM
  Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Ammonium Persulphate

  >> > andrewm wrote:
  >> > HOWEVER - if you only etch one board in a
  >> > blue moon - Amonia Persulphate or FeCl are
  >> > probably better ideas.
  >
  >> ST wrote:
  >> I wouldn't even be sure of that.
  >> There's no disadvantage of CuCl that i can
  >> see, so why would the others be better?
  >>
  >> As long as you have enough spare space to
  >> store your tank and two bottles of
  >> regenerating chemicals it really seems a
  >> good etchant. Of course if one can get the
  >> other etchants easier....
  >
  > It takes some time to make.
  > It takes some time to look after before use.
  > As you pointed out it takes some space.
  > Vapours from it can wreak things.
  > It does not etch as well as FeCl in an air
  > agitated tank. (line resolution)
  > You can't see the board like Amonia
  > Persulphate. (which may be good thing if
  > you only do a few boards and are not too
  > familiar with etching)
  > Your neighbours look at you funny and call
  > the anti-terrorisim hotline when you are
  > using it outside.
  >
  > There will be some point where it is more
  > sensible to mix up disposable etchant and
  > then dispose of it.
  >
  > That point might be one board in six months.
  > That point might be one board in two years.
  >
  > I dont know where that point is - but it
  > will be somewhere.
  >
  > For me - I am well above the point where CuCl
  > is a good idea and I love it very much (and
  > may marry it if Canberra changed the laws)
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and 
  > Photos:
  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
  >
  > If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
  > Yahoo! Groups Links
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  > 



   

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Might just prove a little tricky here in rural Tassie andrew but thanks for 
the tip. I'll give it a try.  What strength was the hydroponics store stuff?

Bill

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 10:31 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Ammonium Persulphate


> Bill wrote:
> G'Day Andrew
> As you mentioned Canberra, could you tell me
> your source for the peroxide?  I have no
> problem locating the acid, coutesy of swimming
> pool shops and hardware outlets but I have yet
> to embark on the search for a good source of
> peroxide in Oz.

Well - my reference to Canberra was the fact
that the federal govt just overturned a law
alowing gay marraiges.  There reasoning for this
was that the federal law defined marraige as a
"union between a man and a woman to exclusion
of others".

This shot down my idea of marrying cupperic
chloride that I love so much. (unless I can
prove the chemical in question is female)

I myself DON'T live in Canberra.  I live in
Brisbane.

I get my H2O2 from a local hydroponics store.

I guess there are keen tomoato growers all
around OZ.  I think I pay $15UAD for 500mL.








Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs

If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
Yahoo! Groups Links

> Bill wrote:
> Might just prove a little tricky here in rural
> Tassie andrew but thanks for the tip. I'll
> give it a try.

No hydroponics stores in Tassie ?  Do they just
grow their smoking tomatos out in the open down
there :P

Don't worry - I wont make any Tasmanian jokes.
Here in Brissy we normally are too busy making
Ipswich jokes.

You can get buy without H202 for the CuCl
etchant.  It just makes it a lot easier to
start it up.

>What strength was the hydroponics store stuff?

It was that stuff they call "40%" which is some
measure of volume gas or something.  It's realy
27% or something similar from what other posters
have said.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <andrewm1973@...> 
wrote:
>
> > Bill wrote:
> > Might just prove a little tricky here in rural
> > Tassie andrew but thanks for the tip. I'll
> > give it a try.
> 
> No hydroponics stores in Tassie ?  Do they just
> grow their smoking tomatos out in the open down
> there :P
> 
> Don't worry - I wont make any Tasmanian jokes.
> Here in Brissy we normally are too busy making
> Ipswich jokes.
> 
> You can get buy without H202 for the CuCl
> etchant.  It just makes it a lot easier to
> start it up.
> 
> >What strength was the hydroponics store stuff?
> 
> It was that stuff they call "40%" which is some
> measure of volume gas or something.  It's realy
> 27% or something similar from what other posters
> have said.
>

Here in the states I get '40 Volume' to regenerate FeCl3, which is 12% 
I believe (About 3% per 10 Volume, which has to do with how much 
oxygen it gives off, the conversion is irritating) in hairdressers 
supply stores (Sally Beauty Supply for those who need it in the US). 
It's used as hair bleach. 
Other stores don't usually carry anything over 20 Volume.

Peroxide over 3% (standard drugstore strength) is dangerous. Handle 
with care.

Oh,yes. check the Beauy Supply shops for H2O2. Y0u can
ususally get up to 40 volume (12%).

Myc

--- Andrew <andrewm1973@...> wrote:

> > Bill wrote:
> > G'Day Andrew
> > As you mentioned Canberra, could you tell me
> > your source for the peroxide?  I have no
> > problem locating the acid, coutesy of swimming
> > pool shops and hardware outlets but I have yet
> > to embark on the search for a good source of 
> > peroxide in Oz.
> 
> Well - my reference to Canberra was the fact
> that the federal govt just overturned a law
> alowing gay marraiges.  There reasoning for this
> was that the federal law defined marraige as a
> "union between a man and a woman to exclusion
> of others".
> 
> This shot down my idea of marrying cupperic
> chloride that I love so much. (unless I can
> prove the chemical in question is female)
> 
> I myself DON'T live in Canberra.  I live in
> Brisbane.
> 
> I get my H2O2 from a local hydroponics store.
> 
> I guess there are keen tomoato growers all
> around OZ.  I think I pay $15UAD for 500mL.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy Taylor" <jt@...> wrote:
>
> Swimming Pool shops - It's called "shock" the brand I find around 
>here is called baquil. it's 27%
> 
> JT

Be careful here, and make sure it's the right chemical. Most 'shock' 
I've seen is chlorine-based.

On Wed, 07 Jun 2006 00:50:10 +0200, Andrew <andrewm1973@...> wrote:

> It takes some time to make.
Not really, if you start with HCl and H2O2 you can immediately etch boards  
and just have it grow. Remember the other etchants are usually made up  
 from powder or crystals as well, unless you get bottled FeCl.

> It takes some time to look after before use.
Does it? I usually drop the board right in and then add some H2O2 if i  
believe it is too dark to make the board. Every few months (if i feel like  
it) i'll measure molarity and add HCl, usually while waiting for a board  
to etch.

> As you pointed out it takes some space.
It does, but the other etchants require some too (maybe less though).

> Vapours from it can wreak things.
Indeed that is an issue. You need a lid on the tank. I have found it  
doesn't have to be totally airtight but it should be closed.

> It does not etch as well as FeCl in an air
>     agitated tank.  (line resolution)

Ok.

> You can't see the board like Amonia
>     Persulphate. (which may be good thing if
>     you only do a few boards and are not too
>     familiar with etching)

That's not the case if you use a narrow tank (say an inch wide max.) and a  
light from the back. Either a torch or recently i found those small garage  
fluorescent lights that you usually stick inside a car work well too  
because the light is nice and even.

> Your neighbours look at you funny and call
>     the anti-terrorisim hotline when you are
>     using it outside.

Don't show them ;-). The other etchants may cause funny looks too...

ST

> > andrewm wrote:
> ST Wrote :

> > It takes some time to make.
> Not really, if you start with HCl and H2O2 you
> can immediately etch boards and just have it
> grow.

Ok - yeah - I suppose.  I made my CuCl in a big
batch to the right concentration/density before
ever using it - and that took a few days.

If you go the HCl + H202 route you can etch
WHILE making it.

Question for you though.  Is it very aggressive
on resist and does it undercut much when doing
it like that ???

I have found if the acid is very high in my CuCl
I seem to get more undercut than when it is
lower.

Is there a disadvantage to making it as you use
it ?  Or should I recomend that route to everyone
that asks me ?

> Remember the other etchants are usually
> made up from powder or crystals as well, unless
> you get bottled FeCl.

Probably comes down to the philosiphy of "making
CuCl" again.  I made mine to be CuCl right from
the outset rather than HCl+H2O2.  And that was a
lot more work than "add XXX grams of power to XXX
mL of hot water"

> > It takes some time to look after before use.
> Does it? I usually drop the board right in and
> then add some H2O2 if i believe it is too dark
> to make the board. Every few months (if i feel
> like  it) i'll measure molarity and add HCl,
> usually while waiting for a board to etch.

Yeah - If you use it a lot you don't need to
check it every time.  Mine goes for weeks/months
without use - so I have to check molarity/density
almost every time before I use it. (usualy needs
water)

> > Vapours from it can wreak things.
> Indeed that is an issue. You need a lid on
> the tank. I have found it doesn't have to be
> totally airtight but it should be closed.

I solve the wreaking things problem by keeping
it outside in a big PE storage box - (thats
what leads to the last problem)

> > Your neighbours look at you funny and call
> >     the anti-terrorisim hotline when you are
> >     using it outside.
> 
> Don't show them ;-). The other etchants may
> cause funny looks too...

Ah - but I used to do my other etching inside.
Now there is nasty HCl fumes I have to do it
outside and wear clothes while etching.
(maybe I am just moaning at having to wear
clothes - I dont know)

But - still big thumbs up to CuCl.

ALL you people out there - if you etch
regularly - use it :D

On Wed, 07 Jun 2006 10:56:54 +0200, Andrew <andrewm1973@...> wrote:

> Ok - yeah - I suppose.  I made my CuCl in a big
> batch to the right concentration/density before
> ever using it - and that took a few days.
> If you go the HCl + H202 route you can etch
> WHILE making it.
> Question for you though.  Is it very aggressive
> on resist and does it undercut much when doing
> it like that ???
> I have found if the acid is very high in my CuCl
> I seem to get more undercut than when it is
> lower.
> Is there a disadvantage to making it as you use
> it ?  Or should I recomend that route to everyone
> that asks me ?

If you use large amounts of HCl and H2O2 it will definitely be more  
agressive. You'll tend to do that because you don't want to add stuff too  
often. But it isn't dramatic if you don't go crazy and make it too strong,  
you can definitely etch boards normally.
If your tank allows it you can start with a lower qantity so there is  
space left for it to grow. You'll also reach higher densities faster.
I started mine "from zero copper" and it worked very well. I had to add  
H2O2 each time for quite a long time, and i still need to regenerate about  
each second or third board now, the density is still way below normal.


> Yeah - If you use it a lot you don't need to
> check it every time.  Mine goes for weeks/months
> without use - so I have to check molarity/density
> almost every time before I use it. (usualy needs
> water)
>

Since i started from zero copper i have yet to reach normal density so i  
didn't add any water yet. A reason for not adding any form of copper was  
that i don't want to have to dispose of it unnecessarily.


> Ah - but I used to do my other etching inside.
> Now there is nasty HCl fumes I have to do it
> outside and wear clothes while etching.
> (maybe I am just moaning at having to wear
> clothes - I dont know)

lol, it would surely draw strange looks if you forgot the clothes while  
etching outside.
I use CuCl inside with no problems. About half a meter to the right is the  
store for thin steel round stock (welding wire, piano wire,..) A meter to  
the left are my two 7k series tek scopes (which i would probably guard  
with my life ;-) ), and so far i haven't seen any corrosion at all that i  
would attribute to it. The key is to keep the HCl molarity as low as  
possible. It will also make it less agressive to OHP pen ink. During  
etching when the bubbler is on some fumes must surely escape, but with the  
lid on most droplets seem to deposit and run back into the tank. I ran it  
closed loop for a while but the droplets would stick the valves of the air  
pump.

> But - still big thumbs up to CuCl.
> ALL you people out there - if you etch
> regularly - use it :D

I only used FeCl before, what a pain with the stain...
Also used HCl/CuCl without a permanent tank for a while, but the mesing  
about with bottles and cleaning and all really wasn't nice. It is great to  
have a tank that doesn't require any preparation or cleaning. I even made  
the PCB holder so it is operated by a lever from the outside, so i don't  
need to touch any "wet" parts or clean them.
Sure one must consider if the effort is worth it, for one board a year it  
wouldn't pay to make a tank.

ST