Homebrew PCBs

I was just about to purchase the R220 printer from Epson, but noticed 
that it doesn't use the durabrite inks (or doesn't say so 
specifically).  Somewhere buried in all this talk about ink jet 
printers and such, I recall talk about using a printer that uses 
durabrite inks.

Am I on right or wrong on this?  I already have the MIS inks on hand, 
so that is the path I am walking down right now :-)

Chris

Not an answer, but an expansion to chris's question..

Will the Mispro ink under discussion work succesfully in any of the
non-durabrite epson printers.. ?

specifically any of the CD printing versions.

Has anyone been brave enough to try it?


given the right conditions
We know that the ink will print on copper
We know that the ink will resist etchant
What we don't have is a cheap straight path printer that will take the
ink.

I think a definitive answer is in order and I am willing to contribute
  toward someone who can provide the answer if it wrecks their printer.

There are so many variables (nozzle design, excess ink removal,
software etc..) that it is impossible to even guess at the answer..

Chris  (a different Chris)



"lcdpublishing" <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

>
> I was just about to purchase the R220 printer from Epson, but noticed 
> that it doesn't use the durabrite inks (or doesn't say so 
> specifically).  Somewhere buried in all this talk about ink jet 
> printers and such, I recall talk about using a printer that uses 
> durabrite inks.
> 
> Am I on right or wrong on this?  I already have the MIS inks on hand, 
> so that is the path I am walking down right now :-)
> 
> Chris
>

Hi Chris (other Chris)

If I don't get any confirmation one way or the other by the end of 
the day, I am probably going to buy the printer anyway.  I can use 
it for it's original intended purpose.

Without modification, I am hoping I can print on some small PCBs and 
do some testing with the Epson Ink, followed by the MIS inks.

So, I will be doing some testing and experiments on this printer one 
way or another. 

By chance, does anyone know how to suck the standard ink out and 
replace it with the MIS inks?

Chris (the other chris)


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Horne" <chris@...> 
wrote:
>
> Not an answer, but an expansion to chris's question..
> 
> Will the Mispro ink under discussion work succesfully in any of the
> non-durabrite epson printers.. ?
> 
> specifically any of the CD printing versions.
> 
> Has anyone been brave enough to try it?
> 
> 
> given the right conditions
> We know that the ink will print on copper
> We know that the ink will resist etchant
> What we don't have is a cheap straight path printer that will take 
the
> ink.
> 
> I think a definitive answer is in order and I am willing to 
contribute
>   toward someone who can provide the answer if it wrecks their 
printer.
> 
> There are so many variables (nozzle design, excess ink removal,
> software etc..) that it is impossible to even guess at the answer..
> 
> Chris  (a different Chris)
> 
> 
> 
> "lcdpublishing" <lcdpublishing@> wrote:
> >
> > I was just about to purchase the R220 printer from Epson, but 
noticed 
> > that it doesn't use the durabrite inks (or doesn't say so 
> > specifically).  Somewhere buried in all this talk about ink jet 
> > printers and such, I recall talk about using a printer that uses 
> > durabrite inks.
> > 
> > Am I on right or wrong on this?  I already have the MIS inks on 
hand, 

> > so that is the path I am walking down right now :-)
> > 
> > Chris
> >
>

Chris Horne wrote:

>Not an answer, but an expansion to chris's question..
>
>Will the Mispro ink under discussion work succesfully in any of the
>non-durabrite epson printers.. ?
>
>specifically any of the CD printing versions.
>
>Has anyone been brave enough to try it?
>
>
>
>There are so many variables (nozzle design, excess ink removal,
>software etc..) that it is impossible to even guess at the answer..
>
>  
>

  Impossible is a big word.. :)  Easy enough to take an ok guess from a 
back route.  In researching the large ink tanks for splitting up for 
cheap actual Epson replacement ink, most of the inks can be bought 
seperately for the large format printers, you can change around at 
will.  As you mentioned may require keeping the landing area clean etc 
since the pigment ink may have a little more residue, and YMMV, but will 
likely work ok without too many extra problems.

  Probably won't find the right ink in the right cart though, but easy 
enough to do.  Since yellow seems to be what works it's the only one I 
was planning to work with myself..  And for sure yes the R2xx etc are 
dye based not durabrights.  Seems most everything even remotely modern 
that uses durabright has a badge for it on the front..

According to tne MIS website, they recommend their
pigments inks to replace the dye inks.

We've been talking about the MIS inks, but has there
been a definite answer about the Durabrite inks? My
impression in talking with Volkan is that he uses the
MIS inks as a routine replacement ink. Thats what he
had in his printer when he tried it. Correct me If I
am wrong .

I've done some quick tests with the Durabrite ink on a
C84 and there does seem to be some promise there. I
ran into uneven printing, similar to Stefan, but
durable to etch after heating. it was interesting in
that after sitting for a couple of weeks without
heating, the colors were durable to alcohol, but the
black was not

The test were quick in that i used my daughters
printer when I visited her at college. I didn't really
have the time to do it right. She's home now for the
summer and so is her printer ;)

This week the R220 is on sale at Circuit City for $99
with a $20 Circuit City card.

TANSTAAFL!

Myc

--- lcdpublishing <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

> I was just about to purchase the R220 printer from
> Epson, but noticed 
> that it doesn't use the durabrite inks (or doesn't
> say so 
> specifically).  Somewhere buried in all this talk
> about ink jet 
> printers and such, I recall talk about using a
> printer that uses 
> durabrite inks.
> 
> Am I on right or wrong on this?  I already have the
> MIS inks on hand, 
> so that is the path I am walking down right now :-)
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


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Hi Chris ( no- I'm the other Chris, you are the original chris for
this thread !)

re sucking the ink out...

When I was checking into the remote tank thingies..  I asked the guy
selling them if they could supply them empty of ink rather than filled
with Dye based ink..  

The answer was yes..  and at a good discount... it seems the supplier
buys the kit from China or wherever in bulk and fills them himself..

And once you have the empty tanks with the connection pies etc..  its
easy enough to connect them all to the same resevoir if you wish (all
yellow or something)

So maybe its worth investigating if you have a supplier that is
willing to do that for you.

Just a thought

the other Chris   (-=Spiyda=-)



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

>
> Hi Chris (other Chris)
> 
> If I don't get any confirmation one way or the other by the end of 
> the day, I am probably going to buy the printer anyway.  I can use 
> it for it's original intended purpose.
> 
> Without modification, I am hoping I can print on some small PCBs and 
> do some testing with the Epson Ink, followed by the MIS inks.
> 
> So, I will be doing some testing and experiments on this printer one 
> way or another. 
> 
> By chance, does anyone know how to suck the standard ink out and 
> replace it with the MIS inks?
> 
> Chris (the other chris)
> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Horne" <chris@> 
> wrote:
> >
> > Not an answer, but an expansion to chris's question..
> > 
> > Will the Mispro ink under discussion work succesfully in any of the
> > non-durabrite epson printers.. ?
> > 
> > specifically any of the CD printing versions.
> > 
> > Has anyone been brave enough to try it?
> > 
> > 
> > given the right conditions
> > We know that the ink will print on copper
> > We know that the ink will resist etchant
> > What we don't have is a cheap straight path printer that will take 
> the
> > ink.
> > 
> > I think a definitive answer is in order and I am willing to 
> contribute
> >   toward someone who can provide the answer if it wrecks their 
> printer.
> > 
> > There are so many variables (nozzle design, excess ink removal,
> > software etc..) that it is impossible to even guess at the answer..
> > 
> > Chris  (a different Chris)
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > "lcdpublishing" <lcdpublishing@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I was just about to purchase the R220 printer from Epson, but 
> noticed 
> > > that it doesn't use the durabrite inks (or doesn't say so 
> > > specifically).  Somewhere buried in all this talk about ink jet 
> > > printers and such, I recall talk about using a printer that uses 
> > > durabrite inks.
> > > 
> > > Am I on right or wrong on this?  I already have the MIS inks on 
> hand, 
> > > so that is the path I am walking down right now :-)
> > > 
> > > Chris
> > >
> >
>

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing" 
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Chris (other Chris)
> 
> If I don't get any confirmation one way or the other by the end of 
> the day, I am probably going to buy the printer anyway.  I can use 
> it for it's original intended purpose.
> 
> Without modification, I am hoping I can print on some small PCBs and 
> do some testing with the Epson Ink, followed by the MIS inks.
> 
> So, I will be doing some testing and experiments on this printer one 
> way or another. 
> 
> By chance, does anyone know how to suck the standard ink out and 
> replace it with the MIS inks?
> 
> Chris (the other chris)
> 

I believe the ink being discussed is not even a pigment based ink, so 
it will definitely work in the R220. Epson's C and R series printers 
both have rather similar printheads, the C-series is 4-color 
pigment and better for document printing (though Epson seems to be 
advertising it as a photo printer) and the R-series is 6-color 
dyebased inkset, but you can use pigment ink in the dye printers - MIS 
sells a set specifically for this in order to create a pigment photo 
printer for under $200. (the R1800 is $500+). So even if the ink is 
pigment, the R220 should still be able to use it.

As for sucking the ink out, if you mean the tanks the printer came 
with - they're terribly difficult to refill, there's no guarantee you 
won't ruin one in the process: you really should buy refillable 
blank cartridges from MIS with auto-reset chips. If you mean the MIS 
tanks, you'd have to call them about it. I believe you can suck all 
the ink out with the 'bottom fill adapter' that they sell to prime 
their refillables.

I'm still having a very hard time believing that these printers mix 
the colors to create black. I think people are getting confused 
because the color ink level goes down even if you're only printing in 
black and white. Epson C and R printers both use the color ink to 
/clean/ the printheads, every time you turn the printer on, and after 
a certain number of prints. The printer is incapable of cleaning just 
one printhead color, it has to use all 4 or 6 each time. If you have 
'black ink only' checked, the colors will be used up, but it is /not/ 
being put onto the paper. Even if you don't have this setting checked, 
if the image itself is black and white, the printer will still use 
only the black ink to create it, it only uses the colors to create 
greyscale photos. I'm going to check with a few technicians to try to 
find data that confirms this.

Also, if you buy the R220, you can get a settlement refund.

http://www.epsonsettlement.com

Go for the $25 check/$20 store credit, NOT the $45 store credit.

>This week the R220 is on sale at Circuit City for $99
>with a $20 Circuit City card.
>
>TANSTAAFL!
>
>Myc
>
>  
>
  Forgot to mention, the R320 is on close out at Radio Shack and 
Staples...  $85 and $50 rebate at Rat Shack, so $35 total, I'm picking 
one up just for the replacement inks.  Think it's $75 at Staples, but 
maybe cheaper it's on closeout.  They do have other Epsons on close out 
if they have any left, some with durabright.  Hmm the $50 Epson rebate 
may apply there too, not sure if it's on more than the R320 though.

  If you look at some of the ink reviews, while the generics are ok, 
Epson inks do tend to be better in some areas, typically the yellow is 
much brighter.  Haven't looked specifically at the MIS inks for their 
color yet though.  Likely they're ok but not quite as good, Epson really 
does pump some of that high ink price back into R&D and high end 
colorants.  But $950/litre is nuts, basically what some of their 
smallest carts add up to or close, only like 12.5 or 13.5 grams (~mL) 
per cart.  Not free, and barely even enough to go with a lunch..

Alan

At 06:21 PM 5/16/2006, you wrote:
>Not an answer, but an expansion to chris's question..
>
>Will the Mispro ink under discussion work succesfully in any of the
>non-durabrite epson printers.. ?

See my posting to MIS' Forum.
Cristian

>
>By chance, does anyone know how to suck the standard ink out and
>replace it with the MIS inks?
>
>Chris (the other chris)

Why not buy empty spongeless cartridges from MIS?
Cristian

On Tue, 16 May 2006 16:56:54 +0200, lcdpublishing  
<lcdpublishing@...m> wrote:

> I was just about to purchase the R220 printer from Epson, but noticed
> that it doesn't use the durabrite inks (or doesn't say so
> specifically).  Somewhere buried in all this talk about ink jet
> printers and such, I recall talk about using a printer that uses
> durabrite inks.
> Am I on right or wrong on this?  I already have the MIS inks on hand,
> so that is the path I am walking down right now
> Chris


It does have 90 nozzles for each color, just like the one Volkan is using.  
It doesn't say if it has that variable drop size thing, but it says 3pL  
minimum at epson.com so i guess so. The pigmented inks should work in the  
printer i think.

ST

someone asked about getting the old ink out before refilling the tank.

The method i found best is called "dry sponge" at inksupply.com.
<http://www.inksupply.com/sponge.cfm>

Basically you cut the cartridge open and get the sponge out in oder to  
rinse it and the cartridge case.
This gets rid of all the old ink easily. With the black cart i had the  
sponge even went totally white again.
It says to cut a bit off the sponge in the istructions. I found this is  
not required for the black cart i had. Maybe for colored ones to prevent  
cross-contamination.

Of course spongeless carts would be preferrable, they seems so easy to  
refill that a hose feed system would not even be needed. I definitely know  
i would not want to refill sponge carts on a permanent basis, since each  
time you pull them out you introduce air into the printhead which must be  
cleaned out.
The dry sponge method seems a good way to use what you have on hand  
though, for testing and medium-term useage.

ST

Thanks guys,

I think I am going to proceede this way with the process....

Start by first printing with the normal ink from Epson - nothing 
special etc.  Heat the board, and check for etch resistance.  This 
will be done with Black ink - I believe...

THe software I use does not allow me to set the color for printing 
the layouts - it's black.  If I can fiddle with the driver settings, 
then I will try to get it to print with colors to get "Black".

Depending on what I learn up to this point, I will procede wichever 
direction seems fitting.

I don't know if the ink cartridges are all the same size - if the 
black is the same size as Yellow, I could just swap them around, but 
I don't think they are.

So, until I get the thing here and start studying everything, I 
won't know for sure which way to go with regard to the ink 
cartridges and refilling etc.  I am guessing I will end up buying a 
kit or something from that ink supply company.

Getting very anxious to try this - perhaps this weekend if the 
printer gets here by then and I am not working on other things.

Chris

Hello all,

  I just want to confirm my understanding of using plumbers solder paste.

  I beleive people are using it to tin their board before populating, 
and use several thin layers of paste to completely tin a PCB.    Does 
anyone use this paste for SMD soldering?? What about down to 0.5mm pitch??

  I am just about to try my first SMD board, with parts down to 0.5mm 
and given that electronic soler paste has a very limited shelf life and 
the infrequent use I will have for it if I have to use regular paste for 
SMD work I may as well use it for tinining as well.

  BTW, I've run a test reflow following an 'average' profile to 225C 
using a skillet style (see sparkfun.com) of setup, unetched board and 
regular paste which was best before end 2003.  The paste formed a crusty 
grey coating over nicely tinned copper.  It almost looks like a nasty 
dry joint. If  you scrape the crust off the solder there is a nice shiny 
tinned copper surface, I've tried several different types of solvent but 
nothing seems to dissolve it.  Any ideas of what this is and how to get 
rid of it????  and before you flame me over the use of the very out of 
date paste, I knew it was out of date & I just wanted to see if the 
reflow profile worked on a scrap piece of PCB.

Thanks heaps

Trevor

>
>   Forgot to mention, the R320 i

But how you'll cheat it to print on a square PCB?
Cristian

On Wed, 17 May 2006 02:02:59 +0200, Trevor Matthews  
<trev.matthews@ozemail.com.au> wrote:

> Hello all,
>  I just want to confirm my understanding of using plumbers solder paste.
>  I beleive people are using it to tin their board before populating,
> and use several thin layers of paste to completely tin a PCB.    Does
> anyone use this paste for SMD soldering?? What about down to 0.5mm  
> pitch??

I tried, but it is no good. The reason is it gets runny like water when  
heated, for plumbing that is a good thing because it tends to cover the  
whole area more easily. For SMD it will just run off the pads and tin a  
larger area, without leaving sufficient tin at the joint.
Real SMD paste is different, it hardens up when heated and stays in  
position. That is, if you didn't try to thin it with anything - if you did  
that it tends to explode and catapult components off like popcorn.

>  I am just about to try my first SMD board, with parts down to 0.5mm
> and given that electronic soler paste has a very limited shelf life and
> the infrequent use I will have for it if I have to use regular paste for
> SMD work I may as well use it for tinining as well.
>  BTW, I've run a test reflow following an 'average' profile to 225C
> using a skillet style (see sparkfun.com) of setup, unetched board and
> regular paste which was best before end 2003.  The paste formed a crusty
> grey coating over nicely tinned copper.  It almost looks like a nasty
> dry joint. If  you scrape the crust off the solder there is a nice shiny
> tinned copper surface, I've tried several different types of solvent but
> nothing seems to dissolve it.  Any ideas of what this is and how to get
> rid of it????  and before you flame me over the use of the very out of
> date paste, I knew it was out of date & I just wanted to see if the
> reflow profile worked on a scrap piece of PCB.
> Thanks heaps
> Trevor

The dry crust seems normal, i wipe it off with a paper towel.
You really will want real SMD paste for the component soldering, then  
0.5mm is no problem. Not only because of the viscosity but also because it  
uses less agressive flux which may be tricky to remove from under  
components.

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
>
> I was just about to purchase the R220 printer from Epson, but noticed 
> that it doesn't use the durabrite inks (or doesn't say so 
> specifically).  Somewhere buried in all this talk about ink jet 
> printers and such, I recall talk about using a printer that uses 
> durabrite inks.

That is the whole -point- to third party pigmented inks such as MIS's.

Yes, if you look at MIS's website they specifically list all kinds of
Epson printers that started out as dye ink printers.

Steve Greenfield

OK, here's the skinny:

There are whole industries built around using pigmented inks in what
started out as dye ink Epson printers.

Tshirt imprinters use pigmented inks in all kinds of Epsons.

Fine art printers use pigmented inks in all kinds of Epsons.

600, 640, 660, 740, 800, 820, 850, 880, 900, 900 Photo, 980, 1160,
1200, 1270, 1280, 1290, 1520, 3000, 5000, etc. and more etc. All those
come with OEM dye ink, and all have at some time had someone using
pigmented inks in them. Either myself or someone I have seen post
about it. And loads of Epsons that have pigmented inks get used with
3rd party dye inks such as MIS, or Spectrabright inks simply because
Epson OEM inks are so incredibly expensive.

Pretty much a general rule, if it is an Epson inkjet and it works, you
 can use pigmented ink in it.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Horne" <chris@...> wrote:

>
> Not an answer, but an expansion to chris's question..
> 
> Will the Mispro ink under discussion work succesfully in any of the
> non-durabrite epson printers.. ?
> 
> specifically any of the CD printing versions.
> 
> Has anyone been brave enough to try it?
> 
> 
> given the right conditions
> We know that the ink will print on copper
> We know that the ink will resist etchant
> What we don't have is a cheap straight path printer that will take the
> ink.
> 
> I think a definitive answer is in order and I am willing to contribute
>   toward someone who can provide the answer if it wrecks their printer.
> 
> There are so many variables (nozzle design, excess ink removal,
> software etc..) that it is impossible to even guess at the answer..
> 
> Chris  (a different Chris)

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alan King <alan@...> wrote:
>...  As you mentioned may require keeping the landing area clean etc 
> since the pigment ink may have a little more residue...

Not really. It gets sucked down into the waste pad the same as dye
ink. Think about it- if it can get through 4pl nozzles, a coarse
sponge isn't going to plug up.

>   ...  Seems most everything even remotely modern 
> that uses durabright has a badge for it on the front..

The general rule: if Epson gives the ink a fancy name (Durabrite,
Ultrachrome, etc) then it is pigmented ink. If you have a hard time
finding any info on whether or not the ink is dye or pigment, it is
almost certainly dye.

Steve Greenfield

Thanks Steve,

Next week I should have the R220 here and hopefully some time to do 
some experimenting. As usual, I will post any and all results.

Chris