Homebrew PCBs

Hi,

just want to let you know 5 minute epoxy glue is not really suitable for  
long term use in CuCl, even out of the wet above the etchant it's no good  
idea. Came apart after maybe a year, maybe even longer. Turns brown and  
soft.

Replaced with some plastic rivets "welded" in.

OTOH rubber seems to hold up well, although i was worried because some  
compatibility page said it might not.
Wide rubber bands that provide the PCB clamping force, cut from a bicycle  
tire, look like new, if possible even better.

silicone is also just fine.

ST

Hi,

just want to let you know 5 minute epoxy glue is not really suitable for
long term use in CuCl, even out of the wet above the etchant it's no good
idea. Came apart after maybe a year, maybe even longer. Turns brown and
soft.

Replaced with some plastic rivets "welded" in.

OTOH rubber seems to hold up well, although i was worried because some
compatibility page said it might not.
Wide rubber bands that provide the PCB clamping force, cut from a bicycle
tire, look like new, if possible even better.

silicone is also just fine.

ST

Stefan Trethan wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> just want to let you know 5 minute epoxy glue is not really suitable for
> long term use in CuCl, even out of the wet above the etchant it's no good
> idea. Came apart after maybe a year, maybe even longer. Turns brown and
> soft.
> 
> Replaced with some plastic rivets "welded" in.
> 
> OTOH rubber seems to hold up well, although i was worried because some
> compatibility page said it might not.
> Wide rubber bands that provide the PCB clamping force, cut from a bicycle
> tire, look like new, if possible even better.
> 
> silicone is also just fine.
> 
> ST
> 

Interesting. I've had the "24hr" epoxy continuously immersed in CuCl for 
8+ months and I can't detect any physical change except that it has gone 
more yellow. But it went yellow in the first month, and hadn't changed 
further since. I think not all epoxy is the same. I've always avoided 
the 5 minute stuff, as it never set as hard or durable as the others. 
I'm using low viscosity epoxy (http://www.westsystem.com) sold for fiber 
glass work to glue/seal various items permanently immersed in 20% 
sulfuric acid copper plating solutions, and my CuCl etching tanks. No 
problems after 1 year. In other parts I've used a structural type 
adhesive non flowing gel epoxy and find it stands up equally well 
permanently immersed. The color changes to yellow over time.

Adam

On Mon, 08 May 2006 02:05:10 +0200, Adam Seychell  
<a_seychell@...> wrote:

> Interesting. I've had the "24hr" epoxy continuously immersed in CuCl for
>
> 8+ months and I can't detect any physical change except that it has gone
>
> more yellow. But it went yellow in the first month, and hadn't changed
>
> further since. I think not all epoxy is the same. I've always avoided
>
> the 5 minute stuff, as it never set as hard or durable as the others.
>
> I'm using low viscosity epoxy (http://www.westsystem.com) sold for fiber
>
> glass work to glue/seal various items permanently immersed in 20%
>
> sulfuric acid copper plating solutions, and my CuCl etching tanks. No
>
> problems after 1 year. In other parts I've used a structural type
>
> adhesive non flowing gel epoxy and find it stands up equally well
>
> permanently immersed. The color changes to yellow over time.
>
>
> Adam


Yes, the longer curing epoxy is much better. You only need to look at the  
mixing proportions, the 5 minute stuff uses 1:1 while the better stuff  
uses much less hardener. That additional hardener is material that doesn't  
do any favours to strength and chemical properties i guess.

It turned yellow first as well. Then brown, and then soft.

24h curing is a lot of time though (with my patience ;-) ), so i'll stick  
to 5-minute epoxy for most stuff. I like the long shelf life of epoxy  
compared to other glues.
For example that neutral curing silicone i bought not that long ago for  
the silicone paper tests - it's dead already. Doesn't cure any more. The  
acidic silicone just hardens up and you immediately see it is no good any  
more. But the neutral curing one will not harden, it stays a paste (though  
thicker and less shiny), but will not harden any more at all. So that's no  
fun at all, noticing a day after that the work was for nothing and you  
have to remove the gunk again. Learned my lesson - if it appears not as  
sticky as it used to try if it will still cure before using it!

ST

> On Monday, May 8, 2006  4:10 am, Stefan Trethan said
> 
> Yes, the longer curing epoxy is much better. You only need to look 
> at the  
> mixing proportions, the 5 minute stuff uses 1:1 while the better 
> stuff  
> uses much less hardener. That additional hardener is material that 
> doesn't  
> do any favours to strength and chemical properties i guess.
> 
> It turned yellow first as well. Then brown, and then soft.
> 
> 24h curing is a lot of time though (with my patience ;-) ), so i'll 
> stick  
> to 5-minute epoxy for most stuff. I like the long shelf life of 
> epoxy  
> compared to other glues.
> For example that neutral curing silicone i bought not that long ago 
> for  
> the silicone paper tests - it's dead already. Doesn't cure any more. 
> The  
> acidic silicone just hardens up and you immediately see it is no 
> good any  
> more. But the neutral curing one will not harden, it stays a paste 
> (though  
> thicker and less shiny), but will not harden any more at all. So 
> that's no  
> fun at all, noticing a day after that the work was for nothing and 
> you  
> have to remove the gunk again. Learned my lesson - if it appears not 
> as  
> sticky as it used to try if it will still cure before using it!
> 
> ST


I used Goop glue to build an etching tray for my FeCl3 tank, and have 
also used it to glue handles to holding trays in both FeCl3 and HCl + 
H202 tanks. Never had any failure or leakage. Stuff will glue pretty 
much anything permanently.

On Mon, 08 May 2006 16:45:17 +0200, fenrir_co <fenrir@...>  
wrote:

>
>
>
> I used Goop glue to build an etching tray for my FeCl3 tank, and have
>
> also used it to glue handles to holding trays in both FeCl3 and HCl +
>
> H202 tanks. Never had any failure or leakage. Stuff will glue pretty
>
> much anything permanently.
>


What sort of glue is goop?

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 08 May 2006 16:45:17 +0200, fenrir_co <fenrir@...>  
> wrote:
> 
> >
> > I used Goop glue to build an etching tray for my FeCl3 tank, and have

> 
> What sort of glue is goop?

Weren't you the guy who jumped on someone for not using Google? :'/

http://tinyurl.com/ekd92

Steve Greenfield

Well that sucks.  I filled out their form to get a free sample and then it
says "offer only available in the US".
http://www.amazinggoop.com/

I had never seen this stuff before either and I wanted to ty it out.  I
suppose the good thing is that I won't be tempted to glue a concrete block
and a bowling ball to my TV.

Robert
:)

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De la part de Steve
> Envoyé : mai 8 2006 16:32
> À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: epoxy glue no good in CuCl long term
> 
> 
> Weren't you the guy who jumped on someone for not using Google? :'/
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/ekd92
> 
> Steve Greenfield
>

On Mon, 08 May 2006 22:32:03 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:

> Weren't you the guy who jumped on someone for not using Google? :'/
>
>
> http://tinyurl.com/ekd92
>
>
> Steve Greenfield


LOL, the first few results on that link are already showing up as "been  
there" on my screen...

couldn't quite figure it out though, some page said it is silicone, but i  
doubt it from what i read on some others.
Also it looks like there are different goops....

ST

LOL!  Yeah, no need to do that I suppose.  But, if you look at the 
local craft store, they probably have it.  Some home centers carry 
it too, but I have not seen it there too often.

Crafters use it to glue everything to everything.  It works pretty 
good but I generally use epoxies - just figure they are more "Manly" 
or something.

Chris


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hedan 
<robert.hedan@...> wrote:
>
> Well that sucks.  I filled out their form to get a free sample and 
then it
> says "offer only available in the US".
> http://www.amazinggoop.com/
> 
> I had never seen this stuff before either and I wanted to ty it 
out.  I
> suppose the good thing is that I won't be tempted to glue a 
concrete block
> and a bowling ball to my TV.
> 
> Robert
> :)
> 
> 
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> > [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De la part de Steve
> > Envoyé : mai 8 2006 16:32
> > À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: epoxy glue no good in CuCl long term
> > 
> > 
> > Weren't you the guy who jumped on someone for not using 
Google? :'/

> > 
> > http://tinyurl.com/ekd92
> > 
> > Steve Greenfield
> >
>

> > stefan wrote:
> > What sort of glue is goop?

> Steve wrote:
> Weren't you the guy who jumped on someone
> for not using Google? :'/

There is a difference between google-ing for
facts (like C02 reactors being used by fish
breaders) and googling for a common word like
"goop".  Hoping to find a proprietry brand
name of something called "goop" that might
only be sold as "goop" in a specific
geography is a bit harder.

Would be nice if everyone (and I know I am
guilty of not doing it) would state the
actual substance when talking about brand
names.

Eg:  I was using some araldite (epoxy glue)
to join something that had already been
glues with superglue (cyanoacrylate) to
the back of the goat.

:D

Andrew wrote:

>>>stefan wrote:
>>>What sort of glue is goop?
>>>      
>>>
>
>  
>
>>Steve wrote:
>>Weren't you the guy who jumped on someone
>>for not using Google? :'/
>>    
>>
>
>There is a difference between google-ing for
>facts (like C02 reactors being used by fish
>breaders) and googling for a common word like
>  
>


  Not really, takes 3 seconds to type in 'goop glue' and get results.  
Always keep in mind that those who can't be bothered to learn to use 
such a useful and complete tool *effectively*, but want everyone else to 
jump hoops to spoon feed them everything they think they want to know, 
not only deserve but actually need to be appropriately ignored for the 
most part..

  I think many people have these complaints in their cut and paste 
buffer, and it's easier to keep making the same complaints over and 
over.  Giving in to these types of things is not helping someone out, 
they are better served to let them go figure out how to use a search 
engine better.  Maybe offer a quick pointer along those lines, but no more.

"Would be nice if everyone "


  While you're thinking that way, come dig the ditch in my back yard for me so I don't have to do it.  :)


Alan

As i said

I HAVE SEARCHED BEFORE I ASKED!

But the problem is, there are different kinds of goop glues, many sorts  
actually.
One page said it is a silicone glue, but i do need confirmation of that  
since it is not what i would have guessed from what it is supposed to  
glue. I'm sorry that i didn't give a full account of my search with links  
and all, instead only wrote a short question hoping for a short answer.

Getting results is not enough, actually it can be just as useless as your  
post, since it is not at all clear what product exactly from these results  
was used, and the results differ in opinion.

If you don't believe this is a difficult enough question for you to bother  
with, just ignore it.

I'm pretty angry right now for beeing stood at the same step as some of  
the posters we all know and love so much, so i'll shut up before i say  
something that will cause Steve to moderate me.

ST

On Tue, 09 May 2006 00:30:43 +0200, Alan King <alan@...> wrote:

>  Not really, takes 3 seconds to type in 'goop glue' and get results.
>
> Always keep in mind that those who can't be bothered to learn to use
>
> such a useful and complete tool *effectively*, but want everyone else to
>
> jump hoops to spoon feed them everything they think they want to know,
>
> not only deserve but actually need to be appropriately ignored for the
>
> most part..
>
>
>   I think many people have these complaints in their cut and paste
>
> buffer, and it's easier to keep making the same complaints over and
>
> over.  Giving in to these types of things is not helping someone out,
>
> they are better served to let them go figure out how to use a search
>
> engine better.  Maybe offer a quick pointer along those lines, but no  
> more.
>
>
> "Would be nice if everyone "
>
>
>
>   While you're thinking that way, come dig the ditch in my back yard for  
> me so I don't have to do it.
>
>
>
> Alan

> AK wrote:
>
>   Not really, takes 3 seconds to type
> in 'goop glue' and get results.

Thank you Alan for the tip.  I never
knew google was so useful.  I typed in
"goop glue" and have found results from
several companies selling something
they call "goop glue".  They range from
silicone to evaporative set natural
plastics.

As I can't assume the person was using
the "goop" that came up as first hit.
All I have to do is guess which one the
original poster was talking about.

I realise that you don't have that
problem as you have shown a tendancy of
not traversing up threads to read the
original post before hitting reply.

> Always
> keep in mind that those who can't be
> bothered to learn to use such a useful
> and complete tool *effectively*, but
> want everyone else to jump hoops to
> spoon feed them everything they think
> they want to know, not only deserve but
> actually need to be appropriately
> ignored for the most part..

Oh "Great Alan", can you please give us
lessons in *effectivly" using google ?

I would not want to run the risk of
being ignored.

I was going to describe a simple hunting/
bang-bang control system and claim it
was an effective PLL.  Suggest XY plotting
for someones EDM mill.  Scoff at someone
else for not putting a complete RIP in an
MCU with 4K of RAM. Or perhapse claim a
747 is less reliable than a DC-10 because
it has more motors.  But I thought any of
those things might have gotten me ignored
by someone or other.

> I think many people have these
> complaints in their cut and paste buffer,
> and it's easier to keep making the same
> complaints over and over.  Giving in to
> these types of things is not helping
> someone out, they are better served to
> let them go figure out how to use a search 
> engine better.  Maybe offer a quick
> pointer along those lines, but no more.
> 
> "Would be nice if everyone "

Would be nice if everyone BOTHERED to read
UP a thread to get the gist.

Would be nice if everyone BOTHERED to
understand a problem before putting in
their 2 cents worth.

"I use goop glue" is about as concise as
saying "I get best results when I use my
favorite colour for ink-jet direct printing"

It does not give any indication of WHAT
the colour is.  Also if the 2nd poster
down the thread had followed the advice
(given as a joke I think) by the 3rd poster
- he would have come up with a lot of
google results for a persons favorite
colour without knowing it was the correct
result.

> While you're thinking that way, come
> dig the ditch in my back yard for me so
> I don't have to do it.  :)

Sorry - I have better things to do.

Also with my bad back and your past form
I think you are better qualified to 
perform manual labour than I am.

goop is definitely not silicone glue. whatever it is based on is solvent 
based. it can be thinned with toluol which lately is the replacement at 
homedepot for toluene.

it sticks well to a large variety of surfaces. there are multiple types sold 
by the same company and it has never been clear to me what the difference in 
composition is.

i've been using it thinned to a syrup consistence to "prime" plastic 
surfaces that otherwise don't take glue well before attaching black velvet 
to it for telescope baffles.

for some reason they don't post the msds on their website but it is 
available on request by email from the contact tab at 
http://www.amazinggoop.com/

73

jim ab3cv

> In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, dated [sometime before the angst]
> Someone asked a question.
>
> 'What kind of glue is Goop'?

I don't think it's specifically a silicone or cyanoacrylate or 
whatever. It's a solvent polymer based adhesive that's a propietary 
formula of the company Goop. I think there's a phone number on the 
website you can call for more information.

There's a dozen different types (and I believe that Shoe Goo is also 
the same product line - may be the original glue before they realized 
that it'll glue pretty much anything but styrofoam), but from what 
I've researched, there's zero difference between products other than 
that two, Marine and Sportsmans Goop, have added UV resistance. I 
usually buy Plumber's Goop... because it's cheaper than the other 
types Home Depot had.

I think E6000 is also an equivalent type of glue, but I'm not 100% 
certain of that.

I've used it to glue chromed metal bushings to chrome sink pipes for 
prop replicas and I couldn't break the things apart after we were done 
with them. However, I have had it pop off mechanically on very smooth 
acrylic but only with very rough handling. I would rough up whatever 
you're gluing just to be on the safe side.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> As i said
> 
> I HAVE SEARCHED BEFORE I ASKED!

My poking fun at Stefan was -NOT- an invitation for some to launch
into criticism.

Let he who is without first stoned get sinned, man... have you ever
really looked at your hand?

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 08 May 2006 22:32:03 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:
> 
> > Weren't you the guy who jumped on someone for not using Google? :'/
> >
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/ekd92
> >
> >
> > Steve Greenfield
> 
> 
> LOL, the first few results on that link are already showing up as
"been  
> there" on my screen...
> 
> couldn't quite figure it out though, some page said it is silicone,
but i  
> doubt it from what i read on some others.
> Also it looks like there are different goops....

I wouldn't trust most sites about the exact composition, many sites
selling it or touting it are just guessing. I was thinking for general
information.

It does not feel like silicone caulk. Too hard, different smell. It
appears to dry rather than cure. Waterproof, flexible, can also be
used as a contact cement.

I suspect that Shoe Goop, Plumbers Goop, etc. are all just marketing
for the same thing inside the tube. I've never found any noticable
difference between them.

The official site:
http://www.amazinggoop.com

E-6000 seems similar, albiet thinner.

Steve Greenfield