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Easy toner transfer using relatively cheap Mall-Wart paper.

Easy toner transfer using relatively cheap Mall-Wart paper.

2006-05-01 by brent_burns2a

This is the first time I have made my own PCB, it was suprisingly easy.

I purchased JetPrint Photo Premium paper SKU 10199-02744 25 sheets for
less than $10. It is made by International Paper. It also says on
the back not to use with laser printers.

Board was prepped with scotch brite, 400 grit paper, and acetone.

After printing the circuit I placed it on the board and touched it
with the tip of the iron to stick it. The back of the paper was gummy
with the heat so I placed regular printer paper over it and held the
iron down with pressure for 1-2 minutes.

I then placed the paper and board into hot water to soak and began
rubbing the layers off. But then the paper peeled off the surface of
the board. And the toner stayed on the board, so I peeled the entire
paper off quickly. No long soaking was neccesary, and the paper
didn't really absorb much water, it just became slimy on the glossy
surfaces.

After etching, I applied the graphics the same way. And when I put it
in the water I just lifted a corner off with my finger nail and
yanked the paper off.

I thought you had to have long soak times and peeling by layers, this
was really easy.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Easy toner transfer using relatively cheap Mall-Wart paper.

2006-05-01 by Stefan Trethan

Congratulations!

As you can see, you don't neet to wait for the 3rd full moon after the
solstice, clean the blank board with 7 different solutions, draw the
pentagram on the floor and slaugter the goat, as someone claimed recently
;-). It will work just fine without all that..

How long you need to soak and how hard the rubbing is depends on the
paper. It can be near impossible, but it can also float off almost on it's
own.

Please enter the paper data in the database section of the group homepage.

good work!

ST


On Mon, 01 May 2006 05:55:22 +0200, brent_burns2a
<brent_burns2a@...> wrote:

> This is the first time I have made my own PCB, it was suprisingly easy.
>
>
> I purchased JetPrint Photo Premium paper SKU 10199-02744 25 sheets for
>
> less than $10. It is made by International Paper. It also says on
>
> the back not to use with laser printers.
>
>
> Board was prepped with scotch brite, 400 grit paper, and acetone.
>
>
> After printing the circuit I placed it on the board and touched it
>
> with the tip of the iron to stick it. The back of the paper was gummy
>
> with the heat so I placed regular printer paper over it and held the
>
> iron down with pressure for 1-2 minutes.
>
>
> I then placed the paper and board into hot water to soak and began
>
> rubbing the layers off. But then the paper peeled off the surface of
>
> the board. And the toner stayed on the board, so I peeled the entire
>
> paper off quickly. No long soaking was neccesary, and the paper
>
> didn't really absorb much water, it just became slimy on the glossy
>
> surfaces.
>
>
> After etching, I applied the graphics the same way. And when I put it
>
> in the water I just lifted a corner off with my finger nail and
>
> yanked the paper off.
>
>
> I thought you had to have long soak times and peeling by layers, this
>
> was really easy.
>

Re: Easy toner transfer using relatively cheap Mall-Wart paper.

2006-05-01 by lcdpublishing

LOL! Hey, I got a whole backyard filled with dead goats to get
toner transfer to work! I am telling you, you HAVE to slaughter the
goats each time you do the transfer. However, you can bypass the
pentagrams on every-other board. Recently too, I have found that
the moon can be in the crescent phase too, but works best on the 3rd
full moon as you noted

;-)

Chris

And yes, Stefan and I are joking, please do not kill any goats in
the process of performing toner transfer!


> Congratulations!
>
> As you can see, you don't neet to wait for the 3rd full moon after
the
> solstice, clean the blank board with 7 different solutions, draw
the
> pentagram on the floor and slaugter the goat, as someone claimed
recently
> ;-). It will work just fine without all that..
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy toner transfer using relatively cheap Mall-Wart paper.

2006-05-01 by Mycroft2152

And that's the easy spell for Toner Transfer.

wait 'til you see the one for Direct printing! First
born and everything.

TANSTAAFL!

Myc

--- lcdpublishing <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

> LOL! Hey, I got a whole backyard filled with dead
> goats to get
> toner transfer to work! I am telling you, you HAVE
> to slaughter the
> goats each time you do the transfer. However, you
> can bypass the
> pentagrams on every-other board. Recently too, I
> have found that
> the moon can be in the crescent phase too, but works
> best on the 3rd
> full moon as you noted
>
> ;-)
>
> Chris
>
> And yes, Stefan and I are joking, please do not kill
> any goats in
> the process of performing toner transfer!
>
>
> > Congratulations!
> >
> > As you can see, you don't neet to wait for the 3rd
> full moon after
> the
> > solstice, clean the blank board with 7 different
> solutions, draw
> the
> > pentagram on the floor and slaugter the goat, as
> someone claimed
> recently
> > ;-). It will work just fine without all that..
> >
>
>
>
>
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

Re: Easy toner transfer using relatively cheap Mall-Wart paper.

2006-05-01 by Steve

The original poster was being cute- he means WalMart.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Norm Stewart <w6nim@...> wrote:
>
>
> Where (which stores) is this brand of paper available?
> Norm
> >
> > I purchased JetPrint Photo Premium paper SKU 10199-02744 25 sheets for
> > less than $10. It is made by International Paper. It also says on
> > the back not to use with laser printers.
> >
> >
> >
>

Re: Easy toner transfer using relatively cheap Mall-Wart paper.

2006-05-01 by Andrew

>lcdpublishing wrote:
>
> LOL! Hey, I got a whole backyard filled
> with dead goats to get toner transfer to
> work! I am telling you, you HAVE to
> slaughter the goats each time you do the
> transfer. However, you can bypass the
> pentagrams on every-other board. Recently
> too, I have found that the moon can be in
> the crescent phase too, but works best on
> the 3rd full moon as you noted


Wow - its great news that I can also do my
toner transfer on the cresent phase. Will
increase productivity no end.

But seriously - what I was trying to
indicate that there is a lot less art (or
black magic) in photo-developing than
there is in toner transfer.

When I used to toner transfer I used to

1, Clean board with 3M scourer and Jiff
2, Wipe dry and let air dry for minutes
3, Smear a thin film of acetone and toner
over the board
4, Let dry again for a while
5, Spend several minutes ironing it
6, Sit it under cold running water
7, Yank off the paper with a sidways
motion.

I never used any "paper" as I always got
my best results with transperencies.
(Faber-Castell where the best - but I can
no longer get them.)

PHOTO process steps

1, Tear open sealed box of kinsten board
2, Put in UV light box (unattended)
3, Put in developer for 30 seconds

Fewer steps.

Less time.

Less "art".

PLUS it would be a brave man to claim that
toner transfer produced results that where
as good as a photo-developed board.

Horses for courses. Toner transfer is
*GREAT* for someone that needs to do one
board a month. They can get into make
quite respectable board with a close to
zero dollar investment.

If your doing one board a week - I would
suggest you do some math and work out if
you think a UV light box and the like is
worth it.

andrewm - the goat slaugterer.

RE : [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy toner transfer using relatively cheap Mall-Wart paper.

2006-05-01 by Robert Hedan

Photo requires chemicals, toner transfer requires paper.

Direct printing requires a printer, but once running, costs (and process)
will be as minimal as it gets.

Robert
:)


> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De la part de Andrew
> Envoyé : mai 1 2006 16:18
> À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy toner transfer using
> relatively cheap Mall-Wart paper.
>
>
>
> But seriously - what I was trying to
> indicate that there is a lot less art (or
> black magic) in photo-developing than
> there is in toner transfer.
>
...
>
> andrewm - the goat slaugterer.
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy toner transfer using relatively cheap Mall-Wart paper.

2006-05-01 by Stefan Trethan

On Mon, 01 May 2006 22:17:46 +0200, Andrew <andrewm1973@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> But seriously - what I was trying to
>
> indicate that there is a lot less art (or
>
> black magic) in photo-developing than
>
> there is in toner transfer.
>


Let's just disagree, shall we?

I had the exact opposite experience.

It depends which process you get more proficient at, they are very similar
in the number of involved steps.

That's why we are looking at inkjet printing. With some luck it would beat
both.

ST

Toner. Inkjet, photoprocess discussion, Was--> Easy toner transfer

2006-05-01 by lcdpublishing

I don't think any of us will settle on one method or another forever.
I think half the fun in this for me is trying new stuff and learning a
lot in the process.

One idea I have been noodling on (of which I have no idea whatsoever
how to do it) is lasers. A number of years back I remember seeing a
laser marking machine that could mark a bunch of pieces with a lot of
characters in a couple of seconds. I didn't have time to look at it,
understand it, watch it more than a couple of cycles, but I do know it
marked those stainless steel parts - FAST, VERY FAST! As you would
expect from laser, with great precision too.

I know that burning through the copper would require a lot more power
than what this machine had and frankly, that machine was pretty big
and I wouldn't want it in my shop!

But, it's a method that interests me and who knows, maybe i will get
back in touch with that company someday soon and get a chance to
either play with the machine and do some tests, or just learn a bit
more about it.

The photo process is neat, but I have done normal photo processing and
such before so there isn't much interest in doing PCBs that way for
me.

Now if I could figure out a way to melt copper and then apply it to
bare PCB board material, that would be really cool too! If it were
possible, it would be much more efficient as there would be no need
for etching, developing, printing, transfer, chemicals, etc. or any
waste of the copper itself. Just "Draw" the molten copper onto the
PCB in the form of traces and your ready to drill!

All in all, it's just something fun to do and learn about for me.

Chris


> That's why we are looking at inkjet printing. With some luck it
would beat
> both.
>
> ST
>

OT: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner. Inkjet, photoprocess discussion, Was--> Easy toner transfer

2006-05-01 by Christopher Hart

> One idea I have been noodling on (of which I have no idea whatsoever
> how to do it) is lasers.  A number of years back I remember seeing a
> laser marking machine that could mark a bunch of pieces with a lot of
> characters in a couple of seconds.  I didn't have time to look at it,
> understand it, watch it more than a couple of cycles, but I do know it
> marked those stainless steel parts - FAST, VERY FAST!  As you would
> expect from laser, with great precision too.
>
> I know that burning through the copper would require a lot more power
> than what this machine had and frankly, that machine was pretty big
> and I wouldn't want it in my shop!
>
> But, it's a method that interests me and who knows, maybe i will get
> back in touch with that company someday soon and get a chance to
> either play with the machine and do some tests, or just learn a bit
> more about it.

I have worked with laser marking (engraving) and it actually is an oxidation
process, requiring coated metals, either pre-coated, or with a coating that
is sprayed on before going into the laser, and the coating is washed off
after the item has been marked. Unfortunately, it doesn't actually cut the
metal. There are some lasers that can, but you are looking at a very
expensive piece of machienery, and you will end up cutting the board at the
same time, as the material used for circuit boards is a much easier material
to cut than the metal.

Christopher Hart

Re: Easy toner transfer using relatively cheap Mall-Wart paper.

2006-05-01 by Andrew

> > The goat slaughterer wrote:
> >
> > But seriously - what I was trying to
> > indicate that there is a lot less art (or
> > black magic) in photo-developing than
> > there is in toner transfer.

> Stefen T wrote:
> Let's just disagree, shall we?

Deal - but arguing endlessly could be a
way of filling up my boring days at work :D

> I had the exact opposite experience.

You had process variation problems with
photo ? What part could you not get
repeatable ?

> It depends which process you get more
> proficient at, they are very similar
> in the number of involved steps.

I think after 5 or 6 years I did get
pretty proficient at toner transfer. And
I am sure I get a single board in the
etchant faster with photo than the
amount of time it took me to scrub the
copper with Jiff.

Yes you pay for that convenience with
the fact that Kinsten pre-sensitized boards
being more expensive. But I am willing
to pay a machine in a factory to do the
manual labour of scrubbing boards for me.

> That's why we are looking at inkjet
> printing. With some luck it would beat
> both.

Here Here - well said.

I agree whole heartedly that inkjet may
beat both hands down in manual labour and
cost. (just not quality - my precious
beloved photo process will always win
there :P)

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner. Inkjet, photoprocess discussion, Was--> Easy toner transfer

2006-05-01 by Christopher Hart

> Now if I could figure out a way to melt copper and then apply it to
> bare PCB board material, that would be really cool too!  If it were
> possible, it would be much more efficient as there would be no need
> for etching, developing, printing, transfer, chemicals, etc. or any
> waste of the copper itself.  Just "Draw" the molten copper onto the
> PCB in the form of traces and your ready to drill!
>

I remember that a few years ago Seiko Epson Corporation announced a way to do
this type of thing using inkjet technology. It uses a conductive ink and an
insulative ink. It is capable of multi-layer boards.

http://tinyurl.com/k8k2o

Christopher Hart
KC8UFV

OT: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner. Inkjet, photoprocess discussion, Was--> Easy t

2006-05-02 by javaguy11111

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Hart <tech_guru@...>
wrote:
>
> I have worked with laser marking (engraving) and it actually is an
oxidation
> process, requiring coated metals, either pre-coated, or with a
coating that
> is sprayed on before going into the laser, and the coating is washed
off
> after the item has been marked. Unfortunately, it doesn't actually
cut the
> metal. There are some lasers that can, but you are looking at a very
> expensive piece of machienery, and you will end up cutting the board
at the
> same time, as the material used for circuit boards is a much easier
material
> to cut than the metal.
>
> Christopher Hart
>

So couldn't you coat the board with a resist then ablate away the
areas that you want to etch?
Prices are starting to come down some on laser engravers. I have seen
some chinese ones for sale in the 2000-4000 dollar range. Better than
the 8000-10000 I usually see for tabletop units. If I could feel
confident in the quality and support I would buy a chinese one.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy toner transfer using relatively cheap Mall-Wart paper.

2006-05-02 by Stefan Trethan

On Mon, 01 May 2006 23:12:11 +0200, Andrew <andrewm1973@...> wrote:

> And
>
> I am sure I get a single board in the
>
> etchant faster with photo than the
>
> amount of time it took me to scrub the
>
> copper with Jiff.


See - there is the first difference. Board cleaning takes me maybe 5 or 10
seconds - a quick sanding with 1000grit paper and a wipe with acetone. In
that time you can't even expose it. You just don't do TT properly.

I admit it, i never did photoprocess properly.

ST

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner Transfer Methodology

2006-05-02 by Mark Mickelsen

I'm new at this and I may be doing it all wrong. I have my PCB software
generate the layout as a PDF file so I can print it out on my laser printer.
Is there a better format that I should be using for the printout? Also, the
top layer, bottom layer, silkscreen, and other things all come out as
separate files. I would like to be able to combine them all on a single
sheet of photo paper for printout. Does anyone know of a piece of software
that will let me combine the files together into a single file for printout?
My boards are small enough that all these different things will fit on a
single 8 1/2" x 11" sheet of photo paper and it would be nice to not have to
print out several sheets for just one small board. Or am I just going about
this the wrong way in the first place?
Some help from the more experienced players would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.
Mark

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner Transfer Methodology

2006-05-02 by Stefan Trethan

For combining the views onto one sheet i use paint shop pro.
The old versions (around 6) are quite cheap on ebay and much better than
the new versions.

You need to find a way to print to scale, which can be tricky. I use tiff
export instead of printing to pdf.

ST


On Tue, 02 May 2006 11:01:06 +0200, Mark Mickelsen
<mark.mickelsen@...> wrote:

> I'm new at this and I may be doing it all wrong. I have my PCB software
>
> generate the layout as a PDF file so I can print it out on my laser
> printer.
>
> Is there a better format that I should be using for the printout? Also,
> the
>
> top layer, bottom layer, silkscreen, and other things all come out as
>
> separate files. I would like to be able to combine them all on a single
>
> sheet of photo paper for printout. Does anyone know of a piece of
> software
>
> that will let me combine the files together into a single file for
> printout?
>
> My boards are small enough that all these different things will fit on a
>
> single 8 1/2" x 11" sheet of photo paper and it would be nice to not
> have to
>
> print out several sheets for just one small board. Or am I just going
> about
>
> this the wrong way in the first place?
>
> Some help from the more experienced players would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Mark

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner Transfer Methodology

2006-05-02 by Leon Heller

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Mickelsen" <mark.mickelsen@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 10:01 AM
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Toner Transfer Methodology


> I'm new at this and I may be doing it all wrong. I have my PCB software
> generate the layout as a PDF file so I can print it out on my laser
> printer.
> Is there a better format that I should be using for the printout? Also,
> the
> top layer, bottom layer, silkscreen, and other things all come out as
> separate files. I would like to be able to combine them all on a single
> sheet of photo paper for printout. Does anyone know of a piece of
> software
> that will let me combine the files together into a single file for
> printout?
> My boards are small enough that all these different things will fit on a
> single 8 1/2" x 11" sheet of photo paper and it would be nice to not have
> to
> print out several sheets for just one small board. Or am I just going
> about
> this the wrong way in the first place?
> Some help from the more experienced players would be greatly appreciated.

You could just print directly, of course. I only create PDFs if other people
need to use my artwork.

The Pulsonix software I use has a plot facility which allows layers to be
combined on the output, and they could be offset to get them all on one
page. By default they come out superimposed. How about outputting them as
Gerbers and combining them with GC-Prevue? You might be able to offset each
one to fill the page.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
leon.heller@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

Re: Easy toner transfer using relatively cheap Mall-Wart paper.

2006-05-02 by Andrew

> ST Wrote :
>
> See - there is the first difference. Board
> cleaning takes me maybe 5 or 10 seconds - a
> quick sanding with 1000grit paper and a wipe
> with acetone. In that time you can't even
> expose it.

5 or 10 seconds - I could never get off the
sticky gummy stuff that comes courtesy of Dick
Smith Electronics price stickers in that amount
of time.

They always thoughtfuly put them smack bang in
the middle of the board as well.

:D

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy toner transfer using relatively cheap Mall-Wart paper.

2006-05-02 by Stefan Trethan

On Tue, 02 May 2006 13:05:38 +0200, Andrew <andrewm1973@...> wrote:

> 5 or 10 seconds - I could never get off the
>
> sticky gummy stuff that comes courtesy of Dick
>
> Smith Electronics price stickers in that amount
>
> of time.
>
>
> They always thoughtfuly put them smack bang in
>
> the middle of the board as well.
>
>
>
>


Well, mine don't come with no such nonsense ;-)

But then, i had huge trouble with the black lightproof covering on the
photoboards. It would leave black gum on there which was very difficult to
remove without hurting the resist...

ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy toner transfer using relatively cheap Mall-Wart paper.

2006-05-02 by Leon Heller

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 1:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Easy toner transfer using relatively cheap
Mall-Wart paper.


> On Tue, 02 May 2006 13:05:38 +0200, Andrew <andrewm1973@...>
> wrote:
>
>> 5 or 10 seconds - I could never get off the
>>
>> sticky gummy stuff that comes courtesy of Dick
>>
>> Smith Electronics price stickers in that amount
>>
>> of time.
>>
>>
>> They always thoughtfuly put them smack bang in
>>
>> the middle of the board as well.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> Well, mine don't come with no such nonsense ;-)
>
> But then, i had huge trouble with the black lightproof covering on the
> photoboards. It would leave black gum on there which was very difficult to
> remove without hurting the resist...

I've never had that problem, it always comes off very cleanly with no
residue whatsoever.

Leon

---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility
to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
currently using to read this email. ]

Re: Easy toner transfer using relatively cheap Mall-Wart paper.

2006-05-02 by Andrew

> > ST Wrote:
> > <SNIP> i had huge trouble with the black
> > lightproof covering on the photoboards.
> > It would leave black gum on there which
> > was very difficult to
> > remove without hurting the resist...

> LeonH Wrote:
> I've never had that problem, it always
> comes off very cleanly with no residue
> whatsoever.

I have seen a brand of neg-acting board
someone was using do something similar.

Thankfully the Kinsten ones I buy have
never let me down

OT: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner. Inkjet, photoprocess discussion, Was--> Easy t

2006-05-02 by javaguy11111

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, cristian <cristianbip@...> wrote:
>
>
> > I have seen
> >some chinese ones for sale in the 2000-4000 dollar range. Better than
> >the 8000-10000 I usually see for tabletop units. If I could feel
> >confident in the quality and support I would buy a chinese one.
>
> Give me, please, the www
> Cristian
>
http://www.shipslasers.com/
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-40-Watt-Desk-Top-Laser-engraver-w-software_W0QQitemZ7613285569QQcategoryZ46744QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://www.actioncnc.com/desktop_laser_engraver.htm

They all seem to be the same model, but different prices.

http://www.hflaser.com/wsyzj.html
Seems to be the manufacturer, but I can not find their price list.

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner Transfer Methodology

2006-05-02 by Herbert E. Plett

--- Mark Mickelsen <mark.mickelsen@...> wrote:

> I'm new at this and I may be doing it all wrong. I have my PCB software
> generate the layout as a PDF file so I can print it out on my laser printer.

very important: make absolutely sure the scale factor is right, or the holes
and pads will not match!

> Is there a better format that I should be using for the printout? Also, the
> top layer, bottom layer, silkscreen, and other things all come out as
> separate files. I would like to be able to combine them all on a single
> sheet of photo paper for printout. Does anyone know of a piece of software
> that will let me combine the files together into a single file for printout?
> My boards are small enough that all these different things will fit on a
> single 8 1/2" x 11" sheet of photo paper and it would be nice to not have to
> print out several sheets for just one small board. Or am I just going about
> this the wrong way in the first place?

sure:
don't print directly on the expensive paper. use standard heavy paper first to
get a draft. then cut a rectangle of your 'expensive' paper some 1/4 to 1/2"
larger than the net picture and tape (paper masking tape) it just over this
first image, coated face up.
overlap only 1/8" or less of the tape on the borders, both leading and
trailing, never the sides. best use 4 x 1/4" strips, one each corner.
re-run the print on this patched sheet (manual feed), this time with the
heaviest resolution/toner setting you have.
remove carefully the tape if you want to reuse the draft, and don't touch the
surface.
you may even use 'spoiled' or 'failed' photographs you previously got from the
jetink printer. it's funny to see circuits printed on top of those mis-coloured
smiling faces... but TT is insensitive to previous ink printing unless you
damage the coating with fingerprints!

> Some help from the more experienced players would be greatly appreciated.
> Thank you.
> Mark

remember to print each circuit on a different place of the sheet, so you ensure
to minimize the chance of damaging your printers drum. don't _center_ the
pictures.

use the best (most appropriate) paper YOU can find. don't search for 'exactly'
what others have used!
the most important criteria is the quality of transfer obtained: how much black
lines or spots remain on paper after removal (if any=bad), ease of removing in
water (rubbing=bad, float off=ideal) and residues left (none=ideal). if a test
fails, try again, then use the remaining paper (you only 'lost' half a sheet)
for colour photographs and go buy another paper! loop until you succeed!
for your first try, tear out a page of that expensive shiny fashion catalog...
many of those glossy papers do work, mainly those that stick together when
getting wet.
Try this: dip the catalog in water, squeeze and let dry. if you cannot open it
again, then that 'was' the right paper type!

happy TTing


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RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner Transfer Methodology

2006-05-03 by Mark Mickelsen

Thanks very much for this help. One big problem is finding a way to move
the images around so that they print at different places on the page. I
don't have any software that will take a PDF image and let me place it at a
specific place on the page. I would also like to be able to combine several
of the PDF files together, namely the top layer, the bottom layer, the
silkscreen and others on the same page. Do you know of a piece of software
that will let me do this? Either that or one that will let me convert the
images to a different format so that I can manipulate them. How do you
handle these problems? What software do you use to generate your layouts in
the first place?



_____

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Herbert E. Plett
Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 3:43 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner Transfer Methodology



--- Mark Mickelsen <mark.mickelsen@...> wrote:

> I'm new at this and I may be doing it all wrong. I have my PCB software
> generate the layout as a PDF file so I can print it out on my laser
printer.

very important: make absolutely sure the scale factor is right, or the holes
and pads will not match!

> Is there a better format that I should be using for the printout? Also,
the
> top layer, bottom layer, silkscreen, and other things all come out as
> separate files. I would like to be able to combine them all on a single
> sheet of photo paper for printout. Does anyone know of a piece of
software
> that will let me combine the files together into a single file for
printout?
> My boards are small enough that all these different things will fit on a
> single 8 1/2" x 11" sheet of photo paper and it would be nice to not have
to
> print out several sheets for just one small board. Or am I just going
about
> this the wrong way in the first place?

sure:
don't print directly on the expensive paper. use standard heavy paper first
to
get a draft. then cut a rectangle of your 'expensive' paper some 1/4 to 1/2"
larger than the net picture and tape (paper masking tape) it just over this
first image, coated face up.
overlap only 1/8" or less of the tape on the borders, both leading and
trailing, never the sides. best use 4 x 1/4" strips, one each corner.
re-run the print on this patched sheet (manual feed), this time with the
heaviest resolution/toner setting you have.
remove carefully the tape if you want to reuse the draft, and don't touch
the
surface.
you may even use 'spoiled' or 'failed' photographs you previously got from
the
jetink printer. it's funny to see circuits printed on top of those
mis-coloured
smiling faces... but TT is insensitive to previous ink printing unless you
damage the coating with fingerprints!

> Some help from the more experienced players would be greatly appreciated.
> Thank you.
> Mark

remember to print each circuit on a different place of the sheet, so you
ensure
to minimize the chance of damaging your printers drum. don't _center_ the
pictures.

use the best (most appropriate) paper YOU can find. don't search for
'exactly'
what others have used!
the most important criteria is the quality of transfer obtained: how much
black
lines or spots remain on paper after removal (if any=bad), ease of removing
in
water (rubbing=bad, float off=ideal) and residues left (none=ideal). if a
test
fails, try again, then use the remaining paper (you only 'lost' half a
sheet)
for colour photographs and go buy another paper! loop until you succeed!
for your first try, tear out a page of that expensive shiny fashion
catalog...
many of those glossy papers do work, mainly those that stick together when
getting wet.
Try this: dip the catalog in water, squeeze and let dry. if you cannot open
it
again, then that 'was' the right paper type!

happy TTing


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RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner Transfer Methodology

2006-05-03 by Herbert E. Plett

I use Eagle and am about trying DipTrace (first heard of on this list).

anyhow I think transferring via PDF is almost as crazy as using DOC!
but I guess almost any printing program has some sort of 'page setup'
it's just a matter of selecting appropriate margins...

and the new PDF format (and newest readers) permit extract pictures from it...


--- Mark Mickelsen <mark.mickelsen@...> wrote:

> Thanks very much for this help. One big problem is finding a way to move
> the images around so that they print at different places on the page. I
> don't have any software that will take a PDF image and let me place it at a
> specific place on the page. I would also like to be able to combine several
> of the PDF files together, namely the top layer, the bottom layer, the
> silkscreen and others on the same page. Do you know of a piece of software
> that will let me do this? Either that or one that will let me convert the
> images to a different format so that I can manipulate them. How do you
> handle these problems? What software do you use to generate your layouts in
> the first place?


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RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner Transfer Methodology

2006-05-03 by Mark Mickelsen

H.E.P.



Thanks again for helping a newbie. I'm going to look into Eagle. It
certainly has bigger libraries than what I've been using. At first blush,
they seem to be pretty hard to understand and find the discretes you're
looking for, but I'm going to give it a shot. Maybe its output modes will
solve some of my problems. I'll be very interested to hear what you have to
say about DipTrace. I'm currently using WinQcad and like it a lot, but it
does have a few little hangups, like this output thing. I'll have to pay
$150 to get the extra help I need on that one, and I think I'll explore some
others before I do that.

Thanks again. It's guys like you that make it worth it to be a part of this
site.

Mark



_____

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Herbert E. Plett
Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2006 10:17 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner Transfer Methodology



I use Eagle and am about trying DipTrace (first heard of on this list).

anyhow I think transferring via PDF is almost as crazy as using DOC!
but I guess almost any printing program has some sort of 'page setup'
it's just a matter of selecting appropriate margins...

and the new PDF format (and newest readers) permit extract pictures from
it...


--- Mark Mickelsen <mark.mickelsen@...> wrote:

> Thanks very much for this help. One big problem is finding a way to move
> the images around so that they print at different places on the page. I
> don't have any software that will take a PDF image and let me place it at
a
> specific place on the page. I would also like to be able to combine
several
> of the PDF files together, namely the top layer, the bottom layer, the
> silkscreen and others on the same page. Do you know of a piece of
software
> that will let me do this? Either that or one that will let me convert the
> images to a different format so that I can manipulate them. How do you
> handle these problems? What software do you use to generate your layouts
in
> the first place?


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RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner Transfer Methodology

2006-05-03 by Herbert E. Plett

--- Mark Mickelsen <mark.mickelsen@...> wrote:
>... At first blush,
> they seem to be pretty hard to understand and find the discretes you're
> looking for, but I'm going to give it a shot.

just make your own library, and every time you 'discover' a part you will/can
use, copy it.
it's not that many different parts you will use anyway...


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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner Transfer Methodology

2006-05-03 by Stefan Trethan

Not many packages will allow you to print the different views of the PCB
on one sheet, but most will allow some form of export so you can paste
them together on one sheet. Even if there is no export function you may be
able to use one of these drivers that install as a windows printer but
save he output as a image file.

ST


On Wed, 03 May 2006 17:22:30 +0200, Mark Mickelsen
<mark.mickelsen@...> wrote:

> H.E.P.
>
>
>
>
> Thanks again for helping a newbie. I'm going to look into Eagle. It
>
> certainly has bigger libraries than what I've been using. At first
> blush,
>
> they seem to be pretty hard to understand and find the discretes you're
>
> looking for, but I'm going to give it a shot. Maybe its output modes
> will
>
> solve some of my problems. I'll be very interested to hear what you
> have to
>
> say about DipTrace. I'm currently using WinQcad and like it a lot, but
> it
>
> does have a few little hangups, like this output thing. I'll have to pay
>
> $150 to get the extra help I need on that one, and I think I'll explore
> some
>
> others before I do that.
>
>
> Thanks again. It's guys like you that make it worth it to be a part of
> this
>
> site.
>
>
> Mark

Re: Toner Transfer Methodology

2006-05-03 by kilocycles

Hi Mark,
Welcome to the art and science of PC board making! There have been
several threads on DipTrace and EAGLE since I've been in the group,
which is probably about 7 or 8 months now. Search on those terms, and
you will turn up a lot of information to help with your learning curve.

I've been using EAGLE Lite for quite awhile, and I've made several
custom parts. The process is slightly easier in DipTrace, and the
tutorial is very clear, with the exception of mis-identifying the
program to make the schematic symbol. I'm currently learning DipTrace
and building libraries in it as well.

DipTrace has a whole bunch of discrete components, but sometimes a
pretty generic transistor will appear only in the different
manufacturers' libraries. IMHO, the thing to do is to assemble a
custom library with your commonly used parts. EAGLE has a lot more
user-contributed libraries.

Good luck!

Ted

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Mickelsen"
<mark.mickelsen@...> wrote:
>
> H.E.P.
>
>
>
> Thanks again for helping a newbie. I'm going to look into Eagle. It
> certainly has bigger libraries than what I've been using. At first
blush,
> they seem to be pretty hard to understand and find the discretes you're
> looking for, but I'm going to give it a shot. Maybe its output
modes will
> solve some of my problems. I'll be very interested to hear what you
have to
> say about DipTrace. I'm currently using WinQcad and like it a lot,
but it
> does have a few little hangups, like this output thing. I'll have
to pay
> $150 to get the extra help I need on that one, and I think I'll
explore some
> others before I do that.
>
> Thanks again. It's guys like you that make it worth it to be a part
of this
> site.
>
> Mark

>

PCB Software

2006-05-04 by William Carr

I have some PCB software on order.

It's called Crocodile Clips, and I hear they use it a lot in the U.K.

Anybody tried it?

The PCB component is called RealPCB.

William

Newbie Question II

2006-05-04 by William Carr

Okay, I see the point about speed and repeatability being good
motivation to re-invent the wheel on making PCB boards.

What about an alternate use for the inkjet system?

If for example you put a hypothetical two-part etchant in the cyan
and yellow ink tanks, then printed the negative areas in green, you
could print the etchant right on the PCB.


I speak with the wisdom of ignorance: I don't know what the various
etchants are, so I am free from all those pesky details.

The great thing, of course, would be printing a catalyst solution on
the board, so that when you drop it in the etchant those areas etch
faster.

Re: Newbie Question II

2006-05-04 by Andrew

> Bill Carr wrote:
>
> If for example you put a hypothetical two-part
> etchant in the cyan and yellow ink tanks, then
> printed the negative areas in green, you could
> print the etchant right on the PCB.

I think it would need to be a pretty strong
etchant :D

If you placed a totaly uncoated copper board in
fresh persulphate or ferric etchant with the
board submersed under 10mm of etchant - the
etchant will be a long way to exhaustion before
the job is over.

I don't know - But I reckon that 0.1 mm would be
a biggish ask to spray onto a copper board from
an ink nozzel without it just running. So that
etchant would have to be 100x stronger than the
normal etchants people use.


> I speak with the wisdom of ignorance: I don't
> know what the various etchants are, so I am
> free from all those pesky details.

Don't worry - I pride myself on my ignorance.
As they say ignorance is bliss :D

Newbie Question III

2006-05-04 by William Carr

Okay, next stupid question from the newbie:


Why are ya'll using Epson printers? They use water-based inks.
Other manufacturers use alcohol-based inks.

Is it a matter of solubility?

Ideally, you want the ink to be laid down, dry, and ready for the
etching as fast as possible.

Alcohol based ink dries faster, IIRC.

Has there been much thought about what inks are least soluble in the
etching solution?

I recall some mention of Magic Mix ink, but it's water based too.

Alternate solvent inks Re: Newbie Question III

2006-05-05 by Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, William Carr <Jkirk3279@...> wrote:
>
> Okay, next stupid question from the newbie:
>
>
> Why are ya'll using Epson printers? They use water-based inks.
> Other manufacturers use alcohol-based inks.

Like who? All desktop printer inks that I'm aware of use water,
alcohol, and glycol as their solvent. Constraints of not drying in the
head, drying quickly on the paper, not spreading too much in the paper
while drying, etc.

> Is it a matter of solubility?
>
> Ideally, you want the ink to be laid down, dry, and ready for the
> etching as fast as possible.
>
> Alcohol based ink dries faster, IIRC.
>
> Has there been much thought about what inks are least soluble in the
> etching solution?
>
> I recall some mention of Magic Mix ink, but it's water based too.

Magic Mix is a couple of varieties of MIS pigmented inks, don't know
which ones.

Are you thinking of solvent or eco-solvent inks? Those have nastier
solvents than just alcohol, and at issue is the ink solvent attacking
plastics in the printers. Christian of Primjet says it's possible in
Epson desktop printers, but talks about changing out parts like the
park station to one made of something resistant to the solvents and
then still having to remove the cartridges and flush the system after
printing is done for the day!

I've been very interested in some of the eco-solvent inks.
Unfortunately I cannot get small sample quantitites to try. Primjet
has them, but the language barrier seems too high as I'd asked
Christian about several of their inks, and although he did very
generously send some dye sub for bubblejet for me to try, I didn't
seem to be able to get him to understand that I was more interested in
some of the other inks they carry.

And before anyone gives in to the temptation to tell a Polish joke,
keep in mind how hard the Poles fought in WWII and how bravely the
Polish Resistance fought, and that my wife's ancestors were Polish.
And keep the racist jokes to yourself.

Steve Greenfield

PS for those following threads, and for the aid of future members
searching the archives, please use a more specific subject line where
possible. The Yahoogroups search engine is very primitive, it makes it
all the more difficult to scan a bunch of subject lines like "newbie
question" and "a query" and "what is this?"

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Alternate solvent inks Re: Newbie Question III

2006-05-05 by Stefan Trethan

On Fri, 05 May 2006 17:19:08 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:

>
>
> Like who? All desktop printer inks that I'm aware of use water,
>
> alcohol, and glycol as their solvent. Constraints of not drying in the
>
> head, drying quickly on the paper, not spreading too much in the paper
>
> while drying, etc.


ammonia is also in them, at least the MIS inks i have smell a bit.

I recently read ammonia is used in / can be added to acrylic paint to slow
down the drying.
not sure.

ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Alternate solvent inks Re: Newbie Question III

2006-05-05 by Cristian

>And before anyone gives in to the temptation to tell a Polish joke,
>keep in mind how hard the Poles fought in WWII

against both Hitler and Stalin, the most powerful armies that time, Steve.
We, in Romania remember that.
They were, really the bravest.

>and how bravely the
>Polish Resistance fought, and that my wife's ancestors were Polish.
>And keep the racist jokes to yourself.
>
>Steve Greenfield

Sorry for that OT.

To come back: I've tested some InkTec Epson replacement for C64/C66/C84/C86/
CX3600/CX3650/CX4600/CX6400/CX6400/CX6600.
www.inktec.com
Test failed, the inks are liquid on copper after a day of drying.

By the way, List, I've forced to change from cristianbip@...
to this address.
Cristian

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Alternate solvent inks

2006-05-05 by William Carr

On May 5, 2006, at 11:19 AM, Steve wrote:

> Like who? All desktop printer inks that I'm aware of use water,
> alcohol, and glycol as their solvent. Constraints of not drying in the
> head, drying quickly on the paper, not spreading too much in the paper
> while drying, etc.

I was referring to the older Canon printers or Canon-engine based
printers like my old Color Stylewriter.

I have bottles of refill ink that I can't use in Epsons because it's
a different formulation.

Even today, I understand that Canon uses a different printing
mechanism that uses heat, which is why you can't use dye sublimation
ink in Canon printers.

Re: Alternate solvent inks

2006-05-06 by Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, William Carr <Jkirk3279@...> wrote:
>
>
> On May 5, 2006, at 11:19 AM, Steve wrote:
>
> > Like who? All desktop printer inks that I'm aware of use water,
> > alcohol, and glycol as their solvent. Constraints of not drying in the
> > head, drying quickly on the paper, not spreading too much in the paper
> > while drying, etc.
>
> I was referring to the older Canon printers or Canon-engine based
> printers like my old Color Stylewriter.
>
> I have bottles of refill ink that I can't use in Epsons because it's
> a different formulation.
>
> Even today, I understand that Canon uses a different printing
> mechanism that uses heat, which is why you can't use dye sublimation
> ink in Canon printers.
>

All the Apple Stylewriters I've seen are just run of the mill Canon
printers rebadged. BC-01 cartridges and up, pigment black and dye colors.

This company sells refill ink for them that is listed as the same for
just about all inkjets.
http://www.instructables.com/ex/i/E8C98D522C771029BC6B001143E7E506/

I bought some Epson 3000 3rd party tanks to empty out and refill with
pigmented. I saved the dye ink I drew out and have been using it in
several Canon printers: BJC 4x00 series, BJC 5x00 series, BJC 6000. I
had some refill ink I had purchaced before just for the Canon, I used
it in an Epson.

I don't think the dye ink is that critical.

Yes, Canon, HP, Lexmark, etc. use bubblejet. Epson uses piezo.

Steve Greenfield

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate solvent inks

2006-05-06 by William Carr

On May 5, 2006, at 11:15 PM, Steve wrote:

> I don't think the dye ink is that critical.
>
> Yes, Canon, HP, Lexmark, etc. use bubblejet. Epson uses piezo.

There might be one positive element to using non-Epson printers. If
you print with a machine that has the print head built into the ink
tank, you could diminish the potential problems of using solvent ink.

Try it in an Epson and you would indeed need to worry about permanent
damage to the printer.

Re: Alternate solvent inks

2006-05-07 by Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, William Carr <Jkirk3279@...> wrote:
>
> There might be one positive element to using non-Epson printers. If
> you print with a machine that has the print head built into the ink
> tank, you could diminish the potential problems of using solvent ink.
>
> Try it in an Epson and you would indeed need to worry about permanent
> damage to the printer.

Absolutely.

Although a new print head for a Canon costs as much as a new print
head for an Epson, you just drop in a Canon head where an Epson
requires a DOS bootable computer, a bit of software that Epson doesn't
hand out to realign the heads, and quite a bit of time.

Steve Greenfield

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate solvent inks

2006-05-14 by Christopher Hart

On Friday 05 May 2006 23:57, William Carr wrote:
> On May 5, 2006, at 11:15 PM, Steve wrote:
> > I don't think the dye ink is that critical.
> >
> > Yes, Canon, HP, Lexmark, etc. use bubblejet. Epson uses piezo.
>
> There might be one positive element to using non-Epson printers.   If 
> you print with a machine that has the print head built into the ink 
> tank, you could diminish the potential problems of using solvent ink.
I'm actually working on HP Black inks right now.(The color inks just run,
regardless how I dry/cure them) I just realized I have an old Deskjet 340
sitting around, that already has a straight paper path. I am currently
fighting a battle with the inks beading up on the copper, even though my
initial tests on aluminum worked without any problems. My next attempt will
be using a hair dryer (mild hot air gun) to warm the board during printing,
and get the inks to dry quicker, hopefully as they hit the copper.

Christopher Hart
KC8UFV

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate solvent inks

2006-05-14 by Stefan Trethan

On Sun, 14 May 2006 22:23:33 +0200, Christopher Hart
<tech_guru@...> wrote:

> I'm actually working on HP Black inks right now.(The color inks just run,
> regardless how I dry/cure them) I just realized I have an old Deskjet 340
> sitting around, that already has a straight paper path. I am currently
> fighting a battle with the inks beading up on the copper, even though my
> initial tests on aluminum worked without any problems. My next attempt
> will
> be using a hair dryer (mild hot air gun) to warm the board during
> printing,
> and get the inks to dry quicker, hopefully as they hit the copper.
> Christopher Hart
> KC8UFV


I expect you have tried first if this ink will resist etchant?

ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate solvent inks

2006-05-15 by Christopher Hart

I haven't tried it against etchant, but it did hold up under half an hour
under hot running water. I stopped the test at that point.


On Sunday 14 May 2006 16:49, Stefan Trethan wrote:
> On Sun, 14 May 2006 22:23:33 +0200, Christopher Hart
>
> <tech_guru@...> wrote:
> > I'm actually working on HP Black inks right now.(The color inks just run,
> > regardless how I dry/cure them) I just realized I have an old Deskjet 340
> > sitting around, that already has a straight paper path. I am currently
> > fighting a battle with the inks beading up on the copper, even though my
> > initial tests on aluminum worked without any problems. My next attempt
> > will
> > be using a hair dryer (mild hot air gun) to warm the board during
> > printing,
> > and get the inks to dry quicker, hopefully as they hit the copper.
> > Christopher Hart
> > KC8UFV
>
> I expect you have tried first if this ink will resist etchant?
>
> ST
>
>
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> 4:50:57 PM ET - 5/14/2006

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate solvent inks

2006-05-16 by William Carr

On May 14, 2006, at 4:23 PM, Christopher Hart wrote:

> I'm actually working on HP Black inks right now.(The color inks
> just run,
> regardless how I dry/cure them) I just realized I have an old
> Deskjet 340
> sitting around, that already has a straight paper path. I am currently
> fighting a battle with the inks beading up on the copper, even
> though my
> initial tests on aluminum worked without any problems. My next
> attempt will
> be using a hair dryer (mild hot air gun) to warm the board during
> printing,
> and get the inks to dry quicker, hopefully as they hit the copper.

I don't know if it's a practical suggestion, but there are compounds
now used for emergency bandages.

You slap one of these on a fast-bleeding wound, and the chemical
additive absorbs the blood instantly, giving off some heat.

This causes the wound to clot immediately.


I was just wondering if it would be possible to deposit a coating of
these crystals on a PCB so that ink would dry faster.

Thus the ink would set much faster. As long as the thin film wasn't
resistant to etchant, it might expedite the process.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate solvent inks

2006-05-16 by Christopher Hart

Sounds like an interesting idea. I'll first try my idea with the hot air gun,
I can heat up the board so hot that I can barely touch it. If that works, I
may look into where to get that type of thing.


On Tuesday 16 May 2006 00:07, William Carr wrote:
> On May 14, 2006, at 4:23 PM, Christopher Hart wrote:
> > I'm actually working on HP Black inks right now.(The color inks 
> > just run,
> > regardless how I dry/cure them) I just realized I have an old 
> > Deskjet 340
> > sitting around, that already has a straight paper path. I am currently
> > fighting a battle with the inks beading up on the copper, even 
> > though my
> > initial tests on aluminum worked without any problems. My next 
> > attempt will
> > be using a hair dryer (mild hot air gun) to warm the board during 
> > printing,
> > and get the inks to dry quicker, hopefully as they hit the copper.
>
> I don't know if it's a practical suggestion, but there are compounds 
> now used for emergency bandages.
>
> You slap one of these on a fast-bleeding wound, and the chemical 
> additive absorbs the blood instantly, giving off some heat.
>
> This causes the wound to clot immediately.
>
>
> I was just wondering if it would be possible to deposit a coating of 
> these crystals on a PCB so that ink would dry faster.
>
> Thus the ink would set much faster.   As long as the thin film wasn't 
> resistant to etchant, it might expedite the process.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
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> 12:15:57 AM ET - 5/16/2006

Re: Alternate solvent inks

2006-05-16 by RMustakos

Wm.,
This stuff is different from what you think: the "crystals" are actually
the clotting components of blood. I think fibrin and something else.
It is not that the bandage makes the blood clot, it is that the
bandage is a clot waiting for some fluid to make it happen.
At one point they were also talking about making it in a can,
like shaving cream, or cheeze-wiz, with an applicator that you
stick right in the wound and squirt the stuff in.
The liver is so vascularized that trauma wounds there are almost
always fatal, since the rate of blood loss is so high.
Work with goats showed that traumatic liver injuries (basically
they shoot the goats) would heal in a month to the point that there
was no sign of the wound, external or internal.
But anyway, it works by actually clotting itself, it does not
work by generating heat and causing the blood to clot.
How about putting a heating element into the flat bed or carrier
that is fed through the printedr?
RM

>I don't know if it's a practical suggestion, but there are compounds
>now used for emergency bandages.
>
>You slap one of these on a fast-bleeding wound, and the chemical
>additive absorbs the blood instantly, giving off some heat.
>
>This causes the wound to clot immediately.
>
>
>I was just wondering if it would be possible to deposit a coating of
>these crystals on a PCB so that ink would dry faster.
>
>Thus the ink would set much faster. As long as the thin film wasn't
>resistant to etchant, it might expedite the process.
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate solvent inks

2006-05-17 by William Carr

On May 16, 2006, at 11:32 AM, RMustakos wrote:

> But anyway, it works by actually clotting itself, it does not
> work by generating heat and causing the blood to clot.
> How about putting a heating element into the flat bed or carrier
> that is fed through the printedr?

True, the heat is just a by-product. From what I read in Pop
Science, the heat is a negative, as it means that if you dump a lot
of the clotting agent on an open wound you could get 2nd degree burns.

I was just looking for a way to set the ink faster.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate solvent inks

2006-05-17 by Leon Heller

----- Original Message -----
From: "William Carr" <Jkirk3279@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 3:09 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate solvent inks


>
> On May 16, 2006, at 11:32 AM, RMustakos wrote:
>
>> But anyway, it works by actually clotting itself, it does not
>> work by generating heat and causing the blood to clot.
>> How about putting a heating element into the flat bed or carrier
>> that is fed through the printedr?
>
> True, the heat is just a by-product. From what I read in Pop
> Science, the heat is a negative, as it means that if you dump a lot
> of the clotting agent on an open wound you could get 2nd degree burns.
>
> I was just looking for a way to set the ink faster.

Professional inkjet printers for this sort of application use an ink
containing resin which is cured with UV directly after deposition. They need
very expensive printheads, and the ink is difficult to obtain. It would be
interesting to try that techique with an ordinary inkjet printer.

Leon

Leon

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Re: Alternate solvent inks

2006-05-17 by Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, William Carr <Jkirk3279@...> wrote:

> I don't know if it's a practical suggestion, but there are compounds
> now used for emergency bandages.
>
> You slap one of these on a fast-bleeding wound, and the chemical
> additive absorbs the blood instantly, giving off some heat.
>
> This causes the wound to clot immediately.

I doubt it. I suspect that what you are talking about is a clotting
agent, not a drying agent.

Steve Greenfield

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate solvent inks

2006-05-17 by Mycroft2152

What you are looking for is called a "mordant". It is
used on cotton fabric to help the dye molecule adhere
to the fiber.

Think of it also as a "primer"

The problem is to find one that reacts on the ink, but
doesn't block the etchant.

I tried a light coating of hair spray before printing.
I can tell you from expeerience, cured hair spray is
an excellent resist! ;)

Myc


--- Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, William Carr
> <Jkirk3279@...> wrote:
>
> > I don't know if it's a practical suggestion, but
> there are compounds
> > now used for emergency bandages.
> >
> > You slap one of these on a fast-bleeding wound,
> and the chemical
> > additive absorbs the blood instantly, giving off
> some heat.
> >
> > This causes the wound to clot immediately.
>
> I doubt it. I suspect that what you are talking
> about is a clotting
> agent, not a drying agent.
>
> Steve Greenfield
>
>
>
>


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[Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate solvent inks

2006-05-17 by Robert Hedan

Warning to those that might try experimenting, hair spray and a heat source
(like a laminator) might not go well together.

Robert
:)



> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De la part de Mycroft2152
> Envoyé : mai 17 2006 12:31
> À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate solvent inks
>
>
...
>
> I tried a light coating of hair spray before printing.
> I can tell you from expeerience, cured hair spray is
> an excellent resist! ;)
>
> Myc

Hair Spray and blood was - Re: Alternate solvent inks

2006-05-17 by Andrew

> Steve wrote:
> I tried a light coating of hair spray before printing.
> I can tell you from expeerience, cured hair spray is
> an excellent resist! ;)

Well - if the epson standard ink is totaly etchant
soluble and hair spray is an excellent resist - how
about you print a negative in standard ink THEN spray
on the hair spray.

There is a one in a million chance the ink will stop
the hair spray from sticking on those parts of the
board.

Please note - this was a joke suggestion - we probably
don't need a 3000 page long flame of why it won't work.

But feel free if you can somehow work in cruelty to
goats :D

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate solvent inks [ot] water absorbers.

2006-05-17 by Codesuidae

Steve wrote:
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, William Carr <Jkirk3279@...> wrote:
>
> > I don't know if it's a practical suggestion, but there are compounds
> > now used for emergency bandages.
> >
> > You slap one of these on a fast-bleeding wound, and the chemical
> > additive absorbs the blood instantly, giving off some heat.
> >
> > This causes the wound to clot immediately.
>
> I doubt it. I suspect that what you are talking about is a clotting
> agent, not a drying agent.

The commercial names of the products are TraumaDEX (modified potato
starch) and QuikClot (zeolite). They work by removing water from the
blood at the wound site, concentrating blood platelets and proteins,
allowing faster clotting. The process is exothermic and the generated
heat can cause problems if the products are applied too quickly. A
similar product, HemCon (derived from chitosan), is simply a sealant.

I suspect that TraumaDEX and QuikClot would happily remove water from
whatever you put them in.

<http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,SoldierTech_060223_BloodClotter,,00.html>

Dave K

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate solvent inks

2006-05-18 by William Carr

On May 17, 2006, at 12:25 PM, Steve wrote:

> I doubt it. I suspect that what you are talking about is a clotting
> agent, not a drying agent.

It's both. It reacts with moisture, binding it and causing clotting.

One of these agents is called fibrinogen.

It was apparently the August 2005 issue of Pop Science. I clearly
recall that at least one of the two agents studied reacts with water.

Oh well, whatever. The UV setting resin seems more interesting
anyway. I've got a jar of some resin that does that on the shelf,
it's used in 'doming' in the sign industry.

It would be tricky getting the resin to work with a off-the-shelf
inkjet though. It has to be kept in darkness or it will start to
set up.

Re: Alternate solvent inks

2006-05-18 by thomascouey

This actually gave me an idea. It might be hard to implement, but if
you could get a thin masking material and laser etch your pattern
through it so that it becomes something like an eraser shield (if
anyone's familiar with the old pencil and paper drafting days), then
use it as a mask and spray on a resist (hair spray?).

Is there a material out there that would melt away at very low
temperature, but be robust enough to handle? And how hard would it be
to get a powerful enough laser and build the beam splitters? I
suppose you might be able to adapt the scanner module from a laser
printer... Just thinking out loud here. It's probably not
economically feasible, huh?



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Mycroft2152 <mycroft2152@...> wrote:
>
> What you are looking for is called a "mordant". It is
> used on cotton fabric to help the dye molecule adhere
> to the fiber.
>
> Think of it also as a "primer"
>
> The problem is to find one that reacts on the ink, but
> doesn't block the etchant.
>
> I tried a light coating of hair spray before printing.
> I can tell you from expeerience, cured hair spray is
> an excellent resist! ;)
>
> Myc
>
>
> --- Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:
>
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, William Carr
> > <Jkirk3279@> wrote:
> >
> > > I don't know if it's a practical suggestion, but
> > there are compounds
> > > now used for emergency bandages.
> > >
> > > You slap one of these on a fast-bleeding wound,
> > and the chemical
> > > additive absorbs the blood instantly, giving off
> > some heat.
> > >
> > > This causes the wound to clot immediately.
> >
> > I doubt it. I suspect that what you are talking
> > about is a clotting
> > agent, not a drying agent.
> >
> > Steve Greenfield
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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>

Laser removeal of etch resist Re: Alternate solvent inks

2006-05-18 by Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "thomascouey" <tcouey@...> wrote:
>
> This actually gave me an idea. It might be hard to implement, but if
> you could get a thin masking material and laser etch your pattern
> through it so that it becomes something like an eraser shield (if
> anyone's familiar with the old pencil and paper drafting days), then
> use it as a mask and spray on a resist (hair spray?).

It's been discussed fairly recently. I'll bet you can, because it's
been pointed out that the copper is very difficult to cut with the
laser, so anything that will absorb the laser would probably work.

> Is there a material out there that would melt away at very low
> temperature, but be robust enough to handle? And how hard would it be
> to get a powerful enough laser and build the beam splitters? I
> suppose you might be able to adapt the scanner module from a laser
> printer... Just thinking out loud here. It's probably not
> economically feasible, huh?

The laser from a laser printer won't be nearly powerful enough. You
can buy laser engravers, that should work. Rather expensive for the
average person.

Steve Greenfield

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate solvent inks

2006-05-18 by David Griffith

On Thu, 18 May 2006, thomascouey wrote:

> This actually gave me an idea. It might be hard to implement, but if
> you could get a thin masking material and laser etch your pattern
> through it so that it becomes something like an eraser shield (if
> anyone's familiar with the old pencil and paper drafting days), then
> use it as a mask and spray on a resist (hair spray?).
>
> Is there a material out there that would melt away at very low
> temperature, but be robust enough to handle? And how hard would it be
> to get a powerful enough laser and build the beam splitters? I
> suppose you might be able to adapt the scanner module from a laser
> printer... Just thinking out loud here. It's probably not
> economically feasible, huh?

Instead of making a mask, how about spraying a board with hairspray and
using a laser to vaporise hairspray where you want copper to remain.


--
David Griffith
dgriffi@...

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate solvent inks

2006-05-19 by William Carr

On May 18, 2006, at 4:39 PM, thomascouey wrote:

> It might be hard to implement, but if
> you could get a thin masking material and laser etch your pattern
> through it so that it becomes something like an eraser shield (if
> anyone's familiar with the old pencil and paper drafting days), then
> use it as a mask and spray on a resist (hair spray?).
>
> Is there a material out there that would melt away at very low
> temperature, but be robust enough to handle?

I like the idea... there's a new transfer paper the HTFDP folks are
talking about called MiraCool.

You heat-press it and then the backer practically falls off by
itself. (By comparison with 'hot-peel' transfer paper that you have
to peel when very hot or it sticks).

That would leave a layer of polymer on the PCB. A quick scan with a
laser engraver would burn the "positive" areas and then you'd just
drop the board in the etchant.

The poly coat would help protect the PCB traces while the copper in
the unwanted areas dissolved.

Take the board out of solution, and use a heat gun to take off the poly.

[Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate solvent inks

2006-05-20 by Robert Hedan

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De la part de William Carr
> Envoyé : mai 19 2006 19:07
> À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate solvent inks
>
> I like the idea... there's a new transfer paper the HTFDP folks are
> talking about called MiraCool.
...
> Take the board out of solution, and use a heat gun to take
> off the poly.


Any reason why you couldn't let the poly remain and protect the copper?

Would it prevent you from soldering components, or would it melt away from
the iron?

Robert
:)

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate solvent inks

2006-05-22 by William Carr

On May 19, 2006, at 10:21 PM, Robert Hedan wrote:

> Any reason why you couldn't let the poly remain and protect the
> copper?
>
> Would it prevent you from soldering components, or would it melt
> away from
> the iron?

You'd need to at least clean off the contact areas.

I was envisoning cleaning the board, popping hot glue dots on the
contact points, then spraypainting the board.

Afterward the glue dots will likely pop off leaving clean copper.

Laser removal of etch resist

2006-05-22 by Steve

Please change the subject line or just start a new thread.

Regarding Miracool- why use something that is clear and therefore will
be more difficult to remove with a laser, and that requires a heat
press or laminator to apply?

Spray it with metal marking fluid or a flat black paint.

Steve Greenfield

[Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate solvent inks

2006-05-22 by Robert Hedan

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De la part de William Carr
> Envoyé : mai 21 2006 22:32
> À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Alternate solvent inks
>
>
>
> You'd need to at least clean off the contact areas.
>
> I was envisoning cleaning the board, popping hot glue dots on the
> contact points, then spraypainting the board.
>
> Afterward the glue dots will likely pop off leaving clean copper.


Hmmm, hot glue, I hadn't thought of that. I don't think hot glue adheres
well enough to rip a contact pad from the epoxy.

One very slight problem using hot glue is that annoying thin string of glue,
it's very hard to make a clean 'drop'. I suppose it would be easy to break
off any interconnecting strings once the glue cooled.

The main problem for me would be the shape of the pads. I'm using SMD now
and the pads are rectangular, not round. If I was still using through-hole
components I'd give it a try. But it would drive me nuts having a round
shape over a square pad, I couldn't stand it.

Robert
:D

Laser removal of etch resist

2006-05-24 by Philip Mac Cabe

Hi all,

Do I see another wheel being reinvented here?

A UV laser works on photo resist. Someone has already done this with
a flatbed plotter and a UV Laser from a CD player I think??

Photo resist coated board is ubiquitous and (relatively) cheap
compared to finding some other resist which could be lasered away
cleanly.

What am I missing ;-)

Philip.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Alternate solvent inks Re: Newbie Question III

2006-05-26 by lists

In article <e3fqdc+gbnf@...>,
Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:
> And before anyone gives in to the temptation to tell a Polish joke,
> keep in mind how hard the Poles fought in WWII and how bravely the
> Polish Resistance fought, and that my wife's ancestors were Polish.
> And keep the racist jokes to yourself.

And they had a bloody hard time after WWII as well.

I wont go into it all here but last year we went to Dresden as part of the
link between Coventry and Dresden. We were taken to Gorlitz on the German
Polish/German border to meet some ex members of the "people's army". One
guy was telling us how he fought the Nazis during the war and they
welcomed in the "liberating" Russian army. He then spent nine years in a
Russian camp and returned "home" to find his house full of Russians.

No, I have no Polish ancestors or realtives.

Sorry for the rant