Homebrew PCBs

Hi,

went to get the ingredients today.
The ammonia is 25%, so i will have to dilute that down. Was only 4,35eur  
of which over 1eur i think is the bottle, so i got a whole liter. I was  
stupid enough to have a smell - a careful one from a distance _i thought_.  
That stuff almost knocked me over! I was lucky not to spill anything from  
the bottle - would have been a nice addition to the carpet that stench! It  
felt like someone had stuck a knife up my nostril, _don't_ do that, you  
don't need to know how 25% ammonia smells ;-). No wonder they used it for  
smelling salts, that must wake the dead!

Anyway, back on topic. I have the ammonia, the IPA, and the distilled  
water.
Am i right in the assumption that i need 400ml of IPA, 30-50ml of 25%  
ammonia or thereabouts, and the rest to 1000ml water?

I would have had it mixed up in the shop but i didn't remember the  
percentages. I assume there is nothing i need to watch, no reactions or  
any special order?

Let me know if this sounds right. Also let me know if this is "normal  
strength" and if there is any point in having "half strength" and /or  
"double strength" or any other variations that you found useful.

Thanks for the recipie, windex or equivalent would have been damn hard to  
get, and this is probably loads cheaper as well, and i get it in the  
standard bottles which looks much nicer in storage ;-)


BTW i spied a drawer labeled colophony while i was in the chemicals shop.  
Had a look for the color and it is great very light colored stuff. That  
will make fantastic "no clean" flux for sure. The junk the electronics  
stores sell is dark as tar in comparision. And with something like 4.50  
for a pound (as you guys would call it) it is _a lot_ cheaper than from  
the electronics stores...

Anyway, Steve, thanks for confirming the percentages.

ST

Wow... according to the MSDS, this one is only 1 to 5% ammonia, if I'm
interpreting this correctly:
http://www.mchem.com/test/Pacific%20Ammonia.pdf

So you'd better water it down a lot more than that!

1 part 1 to 5% ammonia
4 parts 50% isopropyl
5 parts water

So... do the math.

It isn't incredibly critical, however if you use 1 part out of 10,
that is still about as strong as my undiluted household ammonia.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> 
> went to get the ingredients today.
> The ammonia is 25%, so i will have to dilute that down. Was only
4,35eur  
> of which over 1eur i think is the bottle, so i got a whole liter. I
was  
> stupid enough to have a smell - a careful one from a distance _i
thought_.  
> That stuff almost knocked me over! I was lucky not to spill anything
from  
> the bottle - would have been a nice addition to the carpet that
stench! It  
> felt like someone had stuck a knife up my nostril, _don't_ do that,
you  
> don't need to know how 25% ammonia smells ;-). No wonder they used
it for  
> smelling salts, that must wake the dead!
> 
> Anyway, back on topic. I have the ammonia, the IPA, and the distilled  
> water.
> Am i right in the assumption that i need 400ml of IPA, 30-50ml of 25%  
> ammonia or thereabouts, and the rest to 1000ml water?
> 
> I would have had it mixed up in the shop but i didn't remember the  
> percentages. I assume there is nothing i need to watch, no reactions
or  
> any special order?
> 
> Let me know if this sounds right. Also let me know if this is "normal  
> strength" and if there is any point in having "half strength" and /or  
> "double strength" or any other variations that you found useful.
> 
> Thanks for the recipie, windex or equivalent would have been damn
hard to  
> get, and this is probably loads cheaper as well, and i get it in the  
> standard bottles which looks much nicer in storage ;-)
> 
> 
> BTW i spied a drawer labeled colophony while i was in the chemicals
shop.  
> Had a look for the color and it is great very light colored stuff.
That  
> will make fantastic "no clean" flux for sure. The junk the electronics  
> stores sell is dark as tar in comparision. And with something like
4.50  
> for a pound (as you guys would call it) it is _a lot_ cheaper than
from  

> the electronics stores...
> 
> Anyway, Steve, thanks for confirming the percentages.
> 
> ST
>

So, you say i bought enough ammonia to make 20 to 100 liters of cleaning  
solution?
Well, i do hope i won't need that much!

I will go with 5% i think. I found all sorts of concentrations, 8-10%,  
under 3.5%, under 10%, ...

Is this the MSDS for the brand you use?

ST

On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 02:33:49 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:

> Wow... according to the MSDS, this one is only 1 to 5% ammonia, if I'm
>
> interpreting this correctly:
>
> http://www.mchem.com/test/Pacific%20Ammonia.pdf
>
>
> So you'd better water it down a lot more than that!
>
>
> 1 part 1 to 5% ammonia
>
> 4 parts 50% isopropyl
>
> 5 parts water
>
>
> So... do the math.
>
>
> It isn't incredibly critical, however if you use 1 part out of 10,
>
> that is still about as strong as my undiluted household ammonia.
>
>
> Steve Greenfield

Yes, one of the brands. I just pick up what I find in the local
grocery stores. It's a bit difficult to find, most carry lemon scented
soapy ammonia.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
...
> Is this the MSDS for the brand you use?


> > http://www.mchem.com/test/Pacific%20Ammonia.pdf

On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 15:30:07 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:

> Yes, one of the brands. I just pick up what I find in the local
>
> grocery stores. It's a bit difficult to find, most carry lemon scented
>
> soapy ammonia.
>
>
> Steve Greenfield


Well, i guess 5% will be about equivalent then.

Say is this stuff corrosive? The finished solution i mean. I'm wondering  
if i can fit a metal spout to the lid or not.

I already measured up the IPA but i discovered my distilled water has some  
unidentified particles swimming in it. I'll better get some new water  
tomorrow, don't want any particles in there.

When i wash out cartridges, do i need to use distilled water all the time?  
I read on inksupply.com about cutting open the carts to get out the sponge  
for a good cleaning, that sounds interesting... I'm not sure if they talk  
about tap water or distilled water. My tap water is very hard, had to  
switch to distilled even for the soldering sponge, it would get all  
crusted up...

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

> Well, i guess 5% will be about equivalent then.
> 
> Say is this stuff corrosive? The finished solution i mean. I'm
wondering  
> if i can fit a metal spout to the lid or not.

I am not sure. Ammonia in solution is base in pH, and anything not
neutral is potentially corrosive. 

> I already measured up the IPA but i discovered my distilled water
has some  
> unidentified particles swimming in it. I'll better get some new water  
> tomorrow, don't want any particles in there.

Bad, very bad.

My wife and I started using Brita filters years ago, that's the water
I use.

> When i wash out cartridges, do i need to use distilled water all the
time?  
> I read on inksupply.com about cutting open the carts to get out the
sponge  
> for a good cleaning, that sounds interesting... I'm not sure if they
talk  
> about tap water or distilled water. My tap water is very hard, had to  
> switch to distilled even for the soldering sponge, it would get all  
> crusted up...

If your water is that hard, then I would strongly recommend only using
distilled!

Steve Greenfield

On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 at 00:33, Steve wrote:
>    Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 00:33:49 -0000
>    From: "Steve" <alienrelics@...>
>Subject: Re: cleaning solution for inkjets - Steve
>
>Wow... according to the MSDS, this one is only 1 to 5% ammonia, if I'm
>interpreting this correctly:
>http://www.mchem.com/test/Pacific%20Ammonia.pdf

Thanks for the link, Steve, I know _exactly_ what you are using.
I'm off to the supermarket this afternoon to check what our
common UK formulations are (Windolene, Goddards, and so on.)

Yes, "household" ammonia is around 5%.
I'm told it doesn't fully dissociate in solution so the
exact percentage won't affect the pH in proportion.

The presentation of the concentration as range, e.g. 1 to 5%,
is common in MSDS because it allows manufacturers
to keep their exact formulations secret.

>So you'd better water it down a lot more than that!

And you also ought to check that the concentration is
expressed in the same way: Ammonia in water is
sometimes quoted as NH3 and sometimes as NH4OH,
roughly a two times difference in numbers. It may not
make much difference as an ink cleaner, but it will get
up your nose less to use it weaker rather than stronger.

><snip>
>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Trethan wrote:
> > <snip>The ammonia is 25%, so i will have to dilute that down.<snip>
> > I was  stupid enough to have a smell - a careful one from a distance _i
>thought_.
> > That stuff almost knocked me over! I was lucky not to spill anything
>from
> > the bottle

Don't try this at home, kids!

The (relatively) 'safe' way of sniffing a non-toxic chemical is:-
A) stand container on firm surface
B) at arms length, remove the cap
C) wave hand over container to draw fumes towards face
D) sniff gingerly.

So you don't get a faceful, keel over, drop it and OD in the puddle.

Very graphic, Stefan - I didn't laugh, honest. (No, really.)
You would have had a very clean patch on the carpet
  - when you managed to get back into the house.


Regards, LenW

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Len Warner <yahoo@...> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 at 00:33, Steve wrote:
> >    Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 00:33:49 -0000
> >    From: "Steve" <alienrelics@...>
> >Subject: Re: cleaning solution for inkjets - Steve
> >
> >Wow... according to the MSDS, this one is only 1 to 5% ammonia, if I'm
> >interpreting this correctly:
> >http://www.mchem.com/test/Pacific%20Ammonia.pdf
> 
> Thanks for the link, Steve, I know _exactly_ what you are using.
> I'm off to the supermarket this afternoon to check what our
> common UK formulations are (Windolene, Goddards, and so on.)

Did you see the other info I forwarded about Windex with Ammonia
equivalents outside North America?

> >So you'd better water it down a lot more than that!
> 
> And you also ought to check that the concentration is
> expressed in the same way: Ammonia in water is
> sometimes quoted as NH3 and sometimes as NH4OH,
> roughly a two times difference in numbers. It may not
> make much difference as an ink cleaner, but it will get
> up your nose less to use it weaker rather than stronger.

I was concerned about the method of measuring concentration.

I can attest that stronger concentrations do not clean any better,
however they will gas you! With the concentration I'm using, it takes
only moderate ventilation. I started out with much higher
concentration and even with a window open with a fan on high 4 feet
from me, I had to leave the room after a few minutes.

BTW, I have been told that the basic pH of the ammonia solution is a
critical part of how it works to break down dried ink. This fits with
using FeCl (an acid) to etch. So I would make a guess that pH of the
etchant matters quite a lot. I have FeCl, and of course I can get the
ingredients to make CuCl.

Steve Greenfield

On Thu, 27 Apr 2006 13:57:58 +0200, Len Warner <yahoo@...>  
wrote:

> Don't try this at home, kids!
>
>
> The (relatively) 'safe' way of sniffing a non-toxic chemical is:-
>
> A) stand container on firm surface
>
> B) at arms length, remove the cap
>
> C) wave hand over container to draw fumes towards face
>
> D) sniff gingerly.
>
>
> So you don't get a faceful, keel over, drop it and OD in the puddle.
>
>
> Very graphic, Stefan - I didn't laugh, honest. (No, really.)
>
> You would have had a very clean patch on the carpet
>
>   - when you managed to get back into the house.
>
>
>
> Regards, LenW


Yes it was rather stupid, i know.

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 27 Apr 2006 13:57:58 +0200, Len Warner <yahoo@...>  
> wrote:

> > So you don't get a faceful, keel over, drop it and OD in the puddle.
> >
> >
> > Very graphic, Stefan - I didn't laugh, honest. (No, really.)
> >
> > You would have had a very clean patch on the carpet
> >
> >   - when you managed to get back into the house.
> 
> 
> Yes it was rather stupid, i know.

We're glad you survived. I once stupidly loaded a spray bottle with
undiluted cleaning ammonia and started spraying the shower curtains
vigorously. I paid for that!

Steve Greenfield