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Some toner transfer experiments

Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-24 by sm4rzw

First of all, Hi there, I'm the new kid on the block :-)

I've tried the toner transfer methode several times, different
paper, different printer, different heat. But with no satisfying
results.
Yes, I've managed to make some PCBs of Rogers duroid (PTFE), but it
was not easy.

I was thinking... on stickers supplied with those plastic scale
models of planes I built as a kid. Soak the sheet in water, and the
sticker will come floating. I made some stickers of this type myself
building radio controlled planes, just paint on moist-glue coated
paper.

I was trying... to find a supplier of that paper, coated with moist-
glue, like on envelopes and stamps. But here in Sweden it seems
totally out-of-age. I was, however, offered to buy 2.5 tonnes (5000
lbs) of coated paper direct from the manufacturer...

So I tried to make my own. In an arist shop, I found "gum arabique",
It's a water solution, slightly yellow. It's used for enhancing
gloss on aquarelle paint. Trying different technics coating paper, I
found that matte photo paper seems best, the glue moist the paper at
a minimum, keeping wrinkles away.
This coating is good for laser printing on, it withstands the heat,
and it's water soluble !! So, after ironing it on, soak in warm
water for 10 minutes and the paper just floats away :-) Perfect!!

Perhaps, in another country where you live, that type of coated
paper can be found, give it a try! Just test the glue for heat
resistance so you dont mess up the printer.

I'd love some reports
//Lars (SM4RZW)

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-25 by Lez

> resistance so you dont mess up the printer.
>
> I'd love some reports
> //Lars (SM4RZW)
>

I'd love to understand how your doing it?

Are you saying it works?

It sounds like you are saying you apply glue to paper, then print,
iron on, then soak off, and the toner stays just like TT but less
rubbing?


I just tried a teflon flexible baking sheet, but its not smooth enough
the sheet has a weave and this makes a pattern in the transferred
toner, and it does not all come off the sheet, so one pcb will mark
the next, so no good.

Re: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-25 by sm4rzw

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:
> I'd love to understand how your doing it?
>
> Are you saying it works?
>
> It sounds like you are saying you apply glue to paper, then print,
> iron on, then soak off, and the toner stays just like TT but less
> rubbing?
>
>
> I just tried a teflon flexible baking sheet, but its not smooth enough
> the sheet has a weave and this makes a pattern in the transferred
> toner, and it does not all come off the sheet, so one pcb will mark
> the next, so no good.
>

Since I dont have the proper american words for some items, I'll try to
explain instead. Yes, it works! The easiest way would be to find
paper, coated with that glue that gets sticky with moist, like licking
on a stamp or closing an envelope. But since I couldn't find anywere to
buy it, i make my own, by coating matte photo paper for inkjets with
Gum arabique. That glue does not melt from the heat, but dissolve
easily in water, leaving the toner on the copper without any rubbing.
The problem I'm working on now is to get a smooth surface when coating,
rubber scrape (for window cleaning) seems as a way to go.
//Lars

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-25 by Leon Heller

----- Original Message -----
From: "sm4rzw" <sm4rzw@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 10:52 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Some toner transfer experiments


> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:
>> I'd love to understand how your doing it?
>>
>> Are you saying it works?
>>
>> It sounds like you are saying you apply glue to paper, then print,
>> iron on, then soak off, and the toner stays just like TT but less
>> rubbing?
>>
>>
>> I just tried a teflon flexible baking sheet, but its not smooth enough
>> the sheet has a weave and this makes a pattern in the transferred
>> toner, and it does not all come off the sheet, so one pcb will mark
>> the next, so no good.
>>
>
> Since I dont have the proper american words for some items, I'll try to
> explain instead. Yes, it works! The easiest way would be to find
> paper, coated with that glue that gets sticky with moist, like licking
> on a stamp or closing an envelope. But since I couldn't find anywere to
> buy it, i make my own, by coating matte photo paper for inkjets with
> Gum arabique. That glue does not melt from the heat, but dissolve
> easily in water, leaving the toner on the copper without any rubbing.
> The problem I'm working on now is to get a smooth surface when coating,
> rubber scrape (for window cleaning) seems as a way to go.
> //Lars

Dextrin is the stuff you need, it's available from home-brewing shops. It's
also used as an adhesive.

Leon

Re: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-25 by sm4rzw

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Leon Heller" <leon.heller@...>
wrote:
>
> Dextrin is the stuff you need, it's available from home-brewing
shops. It's
> also used as an adhesive.
>
> Leon
>

I've tried Dextrin, a type of modified starch. Makes good coatings, but
cant handle the heat from the ironing; gets brown, smells and wont
solve in water afterwards.
/Lars

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-25 by Lez

Damn! I was off to homebrew shop for citric acid as a rust remover.


On 25/04/06, sm4rzw <sm4rzw@...> wrote:
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Leon Heller" <leon.heller@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Dextrin is the stuff you need, it's available from home-brewing
> shops. It's
> > also used as an adhesive.
> >
> > Leon
> >
>
> I've tried Dextrin, a type of modified starch. Makes good coatings, but
> cant handle the heat from the ironing; gets brown, smells and wont
> solve in water afterwards.
> /Lars
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-25 by Lez

right, I will try some from the artist supply in town, got to be worth a go!

Then its got to be worth a try on cheaper paper, ie coated inkjet/copier etc

You mentioned with a rubber squegee, I wonder if a rubber roller, like
an ink roller for old printing presses would give a smooth uniform
thin coat, car windscreen wiper rubber?....

Seems if the ingredients are right, paper, glue,toner,heat, we now
just have to come up with a foolproof application for everyone that
people can get the bits for.






On 25/04/06, sm4rzw <sm4rzw@...> wrote:
> This is the adesive I use:
> http://www.misterart.com/store/view.cfm?
> group_id=1309044&AID=10273655&PID=606558&store=001
>
> Found at artist's shops
> /Lars
>
>
>
>

Lez

- Looking for early starwars (episode 4, original starwars)
recordings, even pirate
-
- I dont need your originals just some information about running time
- and scene cut points
-
-
- also looking for a car, silver or white, 4 doors -
- diesel with a bosch pump, abs and pas -
- aircon would be nice, and not a ford -

Re: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-25 by sm4rzw

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:
>
> right, I will try some from the artist supply in town, got to be
worth a go!
>
> Then its got to be worth a try on cheaper paper, ie coated
inkjet/copier etc
>
> You mentioned with a rubber squegee, I wonder if a rubber roller, like
> an ink roller for old printing presses would give a smooth uniform
> thin coat, car windscreen wiper rubber?....
>
> Seems if the ingredients are right, paper, glue,toner,heat, we now
> just have to come up with a foolproof application for everyone that
> people can get the bits for.
>
>

Yes, cheaper paper can surely be used, I think its an advantage if the
paper is more like "standard copy paper" since the water more willingly
will soak it through. The glue makes the smooth surface. But, on the
other hand, The glue will moist the paper more, making wrinkles.

A roller... yes why not? Initially I used a soft flat brush, quickly
paint the sheet after taped the sheet to the table. after drying (15
minutes)I wetted a lint-free rag with water, and very quickly stroke
over the glue surface, like furniture makers did a long time ago, using
shellac and then polished the surface with rubbing alcohol.

I also tried to put car vax on a glass pane, and after painting the
sheet press it to the glass with the glue down.Here a roller could be
useful to press all the air out. Some layers of kleenex above, and
finally half of my bookshelf on top. This gives the most smooth sheets,
but it takes several hours of drying. New rewaxing is needed before
next shoot.

But, evenmore easy, perhaps paper sheets already coated with moist
adesive glue can be readily bought in your country (US?). In Sweden, no
more avaliable, but I remember we used it in school (30 years ago...)
One possible source could be labels for "make-your-own-wine", if they
can be found as sheets, not cut up.

As you can notice, this methode is not ready-to-use yet, it's strickly
experimental, but I think it got potential.
/Lars

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-25 by Lez

> But, evenmore easy, perhaps paper sheets already coated with moist
> adesive glue can be readily bought in your country (US?). In Sweden, no
> more avaliable, but I remember we used it in school (30 years ago...)

Well I will look for a supply of ready coated sheets, or labels, but
even wine sized labels would be good for wine label sized pcbs :)

I'm uk, but type Anglish and convert most prices to $ as I go, its easier....

I have found some gum at the art shop, reduced from £10($16) to 3.50($5)

Also just found some on the web, same as my reduced price.....

http://www.artsupplies.co.uk/erol.html#1398x0&&http%3A%252F%252Fwww.google.co.uk%252Fsearch%3Fq%3Dgummed+sheets%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26cr%3DcountryUK%7CcountryGB%26start%3D10%26sa%3DN

So it looks like its a universaly available product, so no supply problems.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-25 by Leon Heller

----- Original Message -----
From: "sm4rzw" <sm4rzw@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 11:33 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Some toner transfer experiments


> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Leon Heller" <leon.heller@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> Dextrin is the stuff you need, it's available from home-brewing
> shops. It's
>> also used as an adhesive.
>>
>> Leon
>>
>
> I've tried Dextrin, a type of modified starch. Makes good coatings, but
> cant handle the heat from the ironing; gets brown, smells and wont
> solve in water afterwards.

I'm sure that people have used it successfully. The Pulsar TT paper uses it:

http://www.pulsar.gs/PCB/a_Pages/4_Products/4a_Transfer_Paper/Transfer_paper.html

Leon

Re: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-25 by sm4rzw

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Leon Heller" <leon.heller@...>
wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "sm4rzw" <sm4rzw@...>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 11:33 AM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Some toner transfer experiments
>
>
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Leon Heller" <leon.heller@>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Dextrin is the stuff you need, it's available from home-brewing
> > shops. It's
> >> also used as an adhesive.
> >>
> >> Leon
> >>
> >
> > I've tried Dextrin, a type of modified starch. Makes good
coatings, but
> > cant handle the heat from the ironing; gets brown, smells and wont
> > solve in water afterwards.
>
> I'm sure that people have used it successfully. The Pulsar TT paper
uses it:
>
>
http://www.pulsar.gs/PCB/a_Pages/4_Products/4a_Transfer_Paper/Transfer
_paper.html
>
> Leon
>
Obviously, yes. Maybe I overheated it. Or some other difference.
I made the dextrine I used myself (potato starch powder in oven @180
degC, then solve it in water, filtrate, let water evaporate)
..have to try that out again :-)
/Lars

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-25 by Leon Heller

----- Original Message -----
From: "sm4rzw" <sm4rzw@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 3:26 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Some toner transfer experiments


> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Leon Heller" <leon.heller@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "sm4rzw" <sm4rzw@...>
>> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 11:33 AM
>> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Some toner transfer experiments
>>
>>
>> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Leon Heller" <leon.heller@>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Dextrin is the stuff you need, it's available from home-brewing
>> > shops. It's
>> >> also used as an adhesive.
>> >>
>> >> Leon
>> >>
>> >
>> > I've tried Dextrin, a type of modified starch. Makes good
> coatings, but
>> > cant handle the heat from the ironing; gets brown, smells and wont
>> > solve in water afterwards.
>>
>> I'm sure that people have used it successfully. The Pulsar TT paper
> uses it:
>>
>>
> http://www.pulsar.gs/PCB/a_Pages/4_Products/4a_Transfer_Paper/Transfer
> _paper.html
>>
>> Leon
>>
> Obviously, yes. Maybe I overheated it. Or some other difference.
> I made the dextrine I used myself (potato starch powder in oven @180
> degC, then solve it in water, filtrate, let water evaporate)
> ..have to try that out again :-)

Starch has to be hydrolysed - boiled with water under pressure - to form
dextrin. It's actually a type of sugar.

Leon

---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility
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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-25 by Stefan Trethan

On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 12:59:05 +0200, sm4rzw <sm4rzw@...> wrote:

> This is the adesive I use:
>
> http://www.misterart.com/store/view.cfm?
>
> group_id=1309044&AID=10273655&PID=606558&store=001
>
>
> Found at artist's shops
>
> /Lars


That's a good idea.
But i suspect you might see the same problems as with high temperature
silicone coat.

It will come off easily (just pull), but the lack of paper residue renders
larger areas too weak to resist through-etching.

ST

Re: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-25 by sm4rzw

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 12:59:05 +0200, sm4rzw <sm4rzw@...> wrote:
>
> > This is the adesive I use:
> >
> > http://www.misterart.com/store/view.cfm?
> >
> > group_id=1309044&AID=10273655&PID=606558&store=001
> >
> >
> > Found at artist's shops
> >
> > /Lars
>
>
> That's a good idea.
> But i suspect you might see the same problems as with high
temperature
> silicone coat.
>
> It will come off easily (just pull), but the lack of paper residue
renders
> larger areas too weak to resist through-etching.
>
> ST
>
I see... so the paper residue acts as a reinforcement in the toner,
like fiberglass in epoxy... Yes, the toner itself is rather brittle.
Acually, I haven't made enough success for etching yet, I just wipe
it off with aceton and make another test :-)

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-25 by Stefan Trethan

On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 21:39:17 +0200, sm4rzw <sm4rzw@...> wrote:

>
>
> I see... so the paper residue acts as a reinforcement in the toner,
>
> like fiberglass in epoxy... Yes, the toner itself is rather brittle.
>
> Acually, I haven't made enough success for etching yet, I just wipe
>
> it off with aceton and make another test
>


It is not really a reinforcement, it seems it thickens up the layer in
those large areas.

Thin traces work allright with silicone paper, but 1mm and up already
causes trouble.

Maybe with another printer with a heavier toner layer it would be better.
This one is very see-through even on darkest setting.


ST

Re: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-25 by onenastyviper

Hi guys,

Firstly, for a person brought up on metric, what is a 'mil'??

Secondly, I believe my hp 1022 is also a 1200dpi native resolution
what sort of minimum trace widths should I really expect to reliably
obtain?

Third, photo paper consists of good quality paper coated
in "something". Soaking seems to remove this coating where toner is
adhered (copper -> toner bond stronger than toner -> coating -> paper)
What would people comment on problems they have observed with photo
paper TT?

regards, PK

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 21:39:17 +0200, sm4rzw <sm4rzw@...> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I see... so the paper residue acts as a reinforcement in the
toner,
> >
> > like fiberglass in epoxy... Yes, the toner itself is rather
brittle.
> >
> > Acually, I haven't made enough success for etching yet, I just
wipe
> >
> > it off with aceton and make another test
> >
>
>
> It is not really a reinforcement, it seems it thickens up the layer
in
> those large areas.
>
> Thin traces work allright with silicone paper, but 1mm and up
already
> causes trouble.
>
> Maybe with another printer with a heavier toner layer it would be
better.
> This one is very see-through even on darkest setting.
>
>
> ST
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-25 by Stefan Trethan

A mil is 0.001 inch or 0.0254mm.

IMO it is a real problem, now they prefer to go metric with pin spacings,
it is a nightmare.
If only _some people_ had accepted metric measurements ASAP we might not
have to deal with the mess now.

My PCB software has nm resolution, but it is still a pain with grids and
routing.

ST

On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 22:16:07 +0200, onenastyviper
<oneNastyViper@...> wrote:

> Hi guys,
>
>
> Firstly, for a person brought up on metric, what is a 'mil'??
>
>
> Secondly, I believe my hp 1022 is also a 1200dpi native resolution
>
> what sort of minimum trace widths should I really expect to reliably
>
> obtain?
>
>
> Third, photo paper consists of good quality paper coated
>
> in "something". Soaking seems to remove this coating where toner is
>
> adhered (copper -> toner bond stronger than toner -> coating -> paper)
>
> What would people comment on problems they have observed with photo
>
> paper TT?
>
>
> regards, PK

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-25 by Leon Heller

----- Original Message -----
From: "onenastyviper" <oneNastyViper@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 9:16 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Some toner transfer experiments


> Hi guys,
>
> Firstly, for a person brought up on metric, what is a 'mil'??

.001" or one 'thou'.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
leon.heller@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller
---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility
to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
currently using to read this email. ]

Re: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-25 by lcdpublishing

LOL! You know, it does puzzle me why the rest of the world is still
using metric when we are using Imperial ;-)

In truth, to me it doesn't matter a bit - an inch is an inch, a MM is
a MM, a volt is volt. It's all the same, a unit of measure. I too
wish this country would choose one or the other and stick with it.
Right now we are stuck in the half-a$$ state of everything being mixed
together - very frustrating when fixing cars and such :-(


> If only _some people_ had accepted metric measurements ASAP we might
not
> have to deal with the mess now.

Re: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-25 by fenrir_co

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> A mil is 0.001 inch or 0.0254mm.
>
> IMO it is a real problem, now they prefer to go metric with pin
> spacings,
> it is a nightmare.
> If only _some people_ had accepted metric measurements ASAP we might
> not
> have to deal with the mess now.
>
> My PCB software has nm resolution, but it is still a pain with grids
> and
> routing.
>
> ST

I found this out the first time I did some quick PCBs for a friend. I
thought that it sounded like very thick traces, I had assumed a 'mil'
meant a 'millimeter'. Using 'thou' would be a lot less confusing, but
it's common terminology so won't be likely to change anytime soon.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-26 by Herbert E. Plett

--- lcdpublishing <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

> LOL! You know, it does puzzle me why the rest of the world is still
> using metric when we are using Imperial ;-)
>
> In truth, to me it doesn't matter a bit - an inch is an inch, a MM is
> a MM, a volt is volt. It's all the same, a unit of measure.

deep wrong!
a mm is one thousands of a meter - an internationally defined and fixed length.
one inch is defined as 25.4 mm or 0.0254 m -> there is no standard for it!
and what about 17/32" ? crazy! industrial specs now are all required in decimal
notation and therefore the importance of 0.001" or mil or, better yet, mm!
...and please keep off terms like ounces, pints and the like... the world IS
metric and not owned by the Empire!

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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-26 by Stefan Trethan

On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 00:31:15 +0200, fenrir_co <fenrir@...>
wrote:

>
>
> I found this out the first time I did some quick PCBs for a friend. I
>
> thought that it sounded like very thick traces, I had assumed a 'mil'
>
> meant a 'millimeter'. Using 'thou' would be a lot less confusing, but
>
> it's common terminology so won't be likely to change anytime soon.
>


Some people use mil to abbrevate millimeter.

If i hear it, i'll bite your head off, so don't do it ;-)

No, sadly it won't change soon.

ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-26 by Stefan Trethan

On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 06:00:35 +0200, Herbert E. Plett <cachureos@...>
wrote:

> deep wrong!
>
> a mm is one thousands of a meter - an internationally defined and fixed
> length.
>
> one inch is defined as 25.4 mm or 0.0254 m -> there is no standard for
> it!
>
> and what about 17/32" ? crazy! industrial specs now are all required in
> decimal
>
> notation and therefore the importance of 0.001" or mil or, better yet,
> mm!
>
> ...and please keep off terms like ounces, pints and the like... the
> world IS
>
> metric and not owned by the Empire!
>


Even the use of the mil or thou shows clearly the superiority of a decimal
system (as opposed to the fractional nonsense i really can not bend my
brain around, who can imagine 17/32" in his head??).

But fact is, independently of the silly resistance to converting to SI,
components will still be in mil spacings for many years before they are
all replaced by metric. So we do have to deal with it. Luckily it there is
a key in my PCB software that switches all measurements between
mm/mil/inch/um, so i don't have to do any conversions.

Another thing is drill size numbers. I will never understand why those are
not simply labeled in diameter, like it is in mm here, but instead in some
random number...

ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-26 by Lez

On 25/04/06, onenastyviper <oneNastyViper@...> wrote:
> Hi guys,

> What would people comment on problems they have observed with photo
> paper TT?

Err, kodak paper is very good at getting the toner onto the board, but
it wont peel off, only way is to rub through all the paper, the back
of the paper seems to be coated also in like a plastic very much like
real photographic paper, its heat resistant and can be ironed directly
without it stick to the iron and its like a non stick coating, also
seems waterproof because 30 minutes of soaking does virtually nothing
to it......

Probably the best /photo/ paper you can buy, but useless!

If you leave it stuck to the board, and use water and wirewool, you
will start to soften it, and then move to thumb rubbing you will get
to traces etc, but you may (as I have) destroy a number of traces this
way.

[Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-26 by Robert Hedan

"DEEP WRONG" is assuming everyone around the world has access to metric
equipment and material. Canada has gone metric for decades now, but there
are still things that are dealt with in Imperial units. The world is NOT
metric, Europe may be metric as well as other countries, but THE WORLD is an
exaggeration.

The paper I use is in letter format, 8 1/2" x 11". Trying to relate metric
measurements to the paper format is ridiculous. All the components I use
have footprints in thousands of an inch, why should I follow the flock for
the mere sake of following? I use metic where metric makes sense, and I use
imperial where imperial makes sense. Over here, using metric in PCB-making
is a waste of time.

I grew up with fractions of an inch and I still can't visualize 17/32" or
25/64". I've started playing with thousands of an inch since I started
using QCAD and I love it. It took a while to get used to it, but it was
worth it.

"...and please keep off terms like ounces, pints and the like..."

Yes Lord Vader.

Robert
:D


>
> deep wrong!
> a mm is one thousands of a meter - an internationally defined
> and fixed length. one inch is defined as 25.4 mm or 0.0254 m
> -> there is no standard for it! and what about 17/32" ?
> crazy! industrial specs now are all required in decimal
> notation and therefore the importance of 0.001" or mil or,
> better yet, mm! ...and please keep off terms like ounces,
> pints and the like... the world IS metric and not owned by the Empire!
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-26 by Stefan Trethan

Well, you are surely right in saying you use metric/imperial as it makes
sense.
My point is imperial make no sense whatsoever on a greater scale. It may
well make sense for you personally to use it because it is just "all
around you". But the system itself does _not_ make much sense, and most
people who are familiar in both systems say that.

A single person can't do anything either way, but the trend is slowly but
definitely going towards metric, even in the US, and even
for components metric is used for new developments.

The entire world may not be metric. yet. ;-)

Most countries are already anyway.

ST

On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 14:45:53 +0200, Robert Hedan
<robert.hedan@...> wrote:

> "DEEP WRONG" is assuming everyone around the world has access to metric
>
> equipment and material. Canada has gone metric for decades now, but
> there
>
> are still things that are dealt with in Imperial units. The world is NOT
>
> metric, Europe may be metric as well as other countries, but THE WORLD
> is an
>
> exaggeration.
>
>
> The paper I use is in letter format, 8 1/2" x 11". Trying to relate
> metric
>
> measurements to the paper format is ridiculous. All the components I
> use
>
> have footprints in thousands of an inch, why should I follow the flock
> for
>
> the mere sake of following? I use metic where metric makes sense, and I
> use
>
> imperial where imperial makes sense. Over here, using metric in
> PCB-making
>
> is a waste of time.
>

Re: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-26 by lcdpublishing

No question about it metric is here to stay and will eventually push
out the imperial system of measures. As for fractions, most people
are taught the basics 1/8, 1/4, 1/2 etc. in grammer school and those
will get most people through life as greater precision is seldom
required in "normal" day to day life.

Woodworkers work down into the smaller fractions 1/32 and somtimes
1/64 as they need greater precision than "normal" life.

Machinists work down into the smaller fractions 1/64 and 1/128th but
this is only for very roughly dimensioned stuff - things you cut
with a torch or a saw. As you all know, machinists require much
greater precision and thus drop down into the decimal form of
breaking an inch into smaller units of measure.

Typically being .0001" and this is referred to in the shop
as "tenth". TO confuse matters more, it is the point of view of the
person you are talking to as to a tenth of WHAT? A surveyor
probably thinks in terms of a tenth as either a tenth of a mile or
possible a tenth of an inch - depending on what he is measuring. An
inch is a mile to a machinists and so their basis is always the
thousandth of an inch. So, a tenth to a machinist is .0001" or, one
tenth of a thousandth.

Going between fractions, decimals and metric is really easier than
dealing with capacitor values and their units of measure :-) But
then again, I was a machinist before I started with electronics ;-)

In the end, it is much easier to work with it all if you just
consider it a lable for a unit of measure. Forget it's politics,
forget it's basis, and just accept each for what they describe.
To me, it all looks like this....

1/32" = .03125" = .79 MM

It's all the same thing, just different ways of saying it. Sort of
like imepance and resistance etc.etc.etc.

Chris




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> Well, you are surely right in saying you use metric/imperial as it
makes
> sense.
> My point is imperial make no sense whatsoever on a greater scale.
It may
> well make sense for you personally to use it because it is
just "all
> around you". But the system itself does _not_ make much sense, and
most
> people who are familiar in both systems say that.
>
> A single person can't do anything either way, but the trend is
slowly but
> definitely going towards metric, even in the US, and even
> for components metric is used for new developments.
>
> The entire world may not be metric. yet. ;-)
>
> Most countries are already anyway.
>
> ST
>
> On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 14:45:53 +0200, Robert Hedan
> <robert.hedan@...> wrote:
>
> > "DEEP WRONG" is assuming everyone around the world has access to
metric
> >
> > equipment and material. Canada has gone metric for decades now,
but
> > there
> >
> > are still things that are dealt with in Imperial units. The
world is NOT
> >
> > metric, Europe may be metric as well as other countries, but THE
WORLD
> > is an
> >
> > exaggeration.
> >
> >
> > The paper I use is in letter format, 8 1/2" x 11". Trying to
relate
> > metric
> >
> > measurements to the paper format is ridiculous. All the
components I
> > use
> >
> > have footprints in thousands of an inch, why should I follow the
flock
> > for
> >
> > the mere sake of following? I use metic where metric makes
sense, and I
> > use
> >
> > imperial where imperial makes sense. Over here, using metric
in
> > PCB-making
> >
> > is a waste of time.
> >
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-26 by Stefan Trethan

On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 15:36:45 +0200, lcdpublishing
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

>
>
> In the end, it is much easier to work with it all if you just
>
> consider it a lable for a unit of measure. Forget it's politics,
>
> forget it's basis, and just accept each for what they describe.


Yes, that's true. But some people are lazy and leave out the important
part of this unit (like tenth).
A tenth here is usually a tenth of a millimeter, used by machinists.

ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-26 by Lez

Stop it now!

please!

metric units /will/ take over the world, but I get really annoyed if
the shop tries to sell me a metric only tape measure........

Film stock comes in ft, fuel comes in gallons, beer comes in pints,
jelly babys come by the bag.

Problem is some items we think of as modern, are in 'old money' , ie
IC pin spacing, veroboard etc

just go with the flow and live life!



--



Lez

- Looking for early starwars (episode 4, original starwars)
recordings, even pirate
-
- I dont need your originals just some information about running time
- and scene cut points
-
-
- also looking for a car, silver or white, 4 doors -
- diesel with a bosch pump, abs and pas -
- aircon would be nice, and not a ford -

Re: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-26 by lcdpublishing

Oh, absolutly! In a machine shop, you just might get laughed at for
clarifying between a tenth of an inch and a tenth of a thousandth.
The thousandth is ALWAYS assumed in a machine shop. A tenth of inch
is for those guys that don't know how to hold a micrometer in their
hands ;-)

So, yes, most people, within their trades, make certain assumptions
that is confusing to others.

Chris

> Yes, that's true. But some people are lazy and leave out the
important
> part of this unit (like tenth).
> A tenth here is usually a tenth of a millimeter, used by machinists.
>
> ST
>

[Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-26 by Robert Hedan

Impedance is the same as resistance?

Crap, you've just made things so much clearer for me now. Seriously, I had
yet seen a place that said they were one and the same. Ok, I don't look
that deeply, but still. I had learned what resistance was (along with
voltage and current), and then I kept seeing references to impedance here
and there, never picking up exactly what it meant.

Robert
:D



> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De la part de lcdpublishing
> Envoyé : avril 26 2006 09:37
> À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Some toner transfer experiments
>
...
>
> It's all the same thing, just different ways of saying it. Sort of
> like imepance and resistance etc.etc.etc.
>
> Chris
>

Re: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-26 by lcdpublishing

Robert, keep in mind the source of that information :-) I don't
know if they are the same, but those two terms are often used the
same way. I used to think Impedance was for AC and resistance for
DC, but I have seen both terms in both types of current :-( I just
think of them the same and when I get myself good and stuck, I will
know better :-)

Chris


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hedan
<robert.hedan@...> wrote:
>
> Impedance is the same as resistance?
>
> Crap, you've just made things so much clearer for me now.
Seriously, I had
> yet seen a place that said they were one and the same. Ok, I
don't look
> that deeply, but still. I had learned what resistance was (along
with
> voltage and current), and then I kept seeing references to
impedance here
> and there, never picking up exactly what it meant.
>
> Robert
> :D
>
>
>
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De la part de
lcdpublishing
> > Envoyé : avril 26 2006 09:37
> > À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> > Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Some toner transfer experiments
> >
> ...
> >
> > It's all the same thing, just different ways of saying it. Sort
of
> > like imepance and resistance etc.etc.etc.
> >
> > Chris
> >
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-26 by Stefan Trethan

Not really, no.
Impedance is the sum of resistance and reactance.
Reactance is the capacitive or inductive component.

So for static DC signals resistance is impedance, but for AC it isn't.

if you are ever unsure of things like that, or wonder what something is,
try entering "define: impedance" in google and watch the magic.

ST

On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 18:32:30 +0200, Robert Hedan
<robert.hedan@...> wrote:

> Impedance is the same as resistance?
>
>
> Crap, you've just made things so much clearer for me now. Seriously, I
> had
>
> yet seen a place that said they were one and the same. Ok, I don't look
>
> that deeply, but still. I had learned what resistance was (along with
>
> voltage and current), and then I kept seeing references to impedance here
>
> and there, never picking up exactly what it meant.
>
>
> Robert
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-26 by Henrik Olsson

Robert,
Depending a bit on what you are doing they may be "the same" - or not.
Impedance is sort of resistance but it varies depending on the frequency of
the current passing thru it.

For example, take your average speaker, it will probably have a label on it
saying Impedance 4-8ohm but if you take your meter and measure the
resistance of the coil it will be near zero ohm.

A high power amp can easliy destroy a speaker if the output is offset from
0V. That's why audio amplifiers have a protection circuit on the output that
disconects the speaker if there's any DC-component at the output. Before
push-pull circuits made it's way into the amps they used to have a big
capcitor in series with the output to make the output centered around 0V
instead of 50% of the powersupply voltage.

See, there you go, that cap has a VERY high resistance (DC) but it still
passes current from the amp to the speaker (AC).

HTH

/Henrik Olsson.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Hedan" <robert.hedan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 6:32 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Some toner transfer experiments


Impedance is the same as resistance?

Crap, you've just made things so much clearer for me now. Seriously, I had
yet seen a place that said they were one and the same. Ok, I don't look
that deeply, but still. I had learned what resistance was (along with
voltage and current), and then I kept seeing references to impedance here
and there, never picking up exactly what it meant.

Robert
:D

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-26 by Lez

And WTF has this all now got to do with TT !

I found some epson 4*6 photo paper, had a go, not much use it seemed
to crack the image on it like a mirror.

I have now got a bottle of gum arabic, tried kodak paper coated with
that, made toner stick to paper like glue but not to the board!


I just had another go back with the Kodak paper, I did the usual but
applied heat for 3 minutes directly onto the paper and it went brown!

It did not stick to the iron, in fact at full heat it was like ironing
teflon, I left it to soak about 15 minutes, not a thing, its got to be
the most resiliant paper made for photos.

I started to wirewool through the paper layers at a time until it was
thin enough to see the image very cleary, I kept working at it till I
was down to the toner and copper, result, an hour or so of rubbing,
one near perfect board.....

The toner areas where THICK, really thick, the paper is evil but made
for a good etch.

So, kodak will work, bt it takes work, and I need new skin for my
thumbs..........

Off to do another board now....

Impedance/resistance pls move this Re: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-26 by Steve

This should be moved to Electronics_101 to continue.

Steve Greenfield

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> Not really, no.
> Impedance is the sum of resistance and reactance.
> Reactance is the capacitive or inductive component.
>
> So for static DC signals resistance is impedance, but for AC it isn't.
>
> if you are ever unsure of things like that, or wonder what something
is,
> try entering "define: impedance" in google and watch the magic.
>
> ST
>

[Homebrew_PCBs] Impeding knowledge, was: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-26 by Robert Hedan

Ah, that explains a lot.

I've been only dealing with DC circuits until now. I have yet to play with
audio or AC, I've only been playing with micro-processors and supporting
components.

Robert
:)



> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De la part de Henrik Olsson
> Envoyé : avril 26 2006 13:13
> À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Some toner transfer experiments
>
>
> Robert,
> Depending a bit on what you are doing they may be "the same"
> - or not. Impedance is sort of resistance but it varies
> depending on the frequency of
> the current passing thru it.
>
> For example, take your average speaker, it will probably have
> a label on it
> saying Impedance 4-8ohm but if you take your meter and measure the
> resistance of the coil it will be near zero ohm.
>
> A high power amp can easliy destroy a speaker if the output
> is offset from
> 0V. That's why audio amplifiers have a protection circuit on
> the output that
> disconects the speaker if there's any DC-component at the
> output. Before
> push-pull circuits made it's way into the amps they used to
> have a big
> capcitor in series with the output to make the output
> centered around 0V
> instead of 50% of the powersupply voltage.
>
> See, there you go, that cap has a VERY high resistance (DC)
> but it still
> passes current from the amp to the speaker (AC).
>
> HTH
>
> /Henrik Olsson.
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-26 by Lez

When is paper paper, not when its kodak paper........

I just found an older pack, it works a treat!

I did the usual clean board, wipe with a dilute etchant to take the
shine off and leave salmon pink (I'm on ferric from maplins uk) then
iron on for about 3 mins etc, drop into cold water.


When you come to take it out the water it peels off with a loud
creaking noise as the toner splits from the glossy backing.

This leaves a toner only coating on the board as opposed to toner and gloss.

This paper is ''kodak inkjet photo paper' 190gm2 cat 178 3547,
kp105417, 38302 41, 04fkc7 17, I dont know which number is specific
to it but its a 50 sheet pack

The one that makes really proud toner and gloss fibre tracks is
'kod-aper glossy inkjet paper' 180gm2 thickness 0.21mm but has no cat
number or barcode or anything and is 25 sheets in a (shrink)wrap

In fact I think its a fake paper, made to look like kodak etc, looks
like I may have been duped I thought I was buying kodak!






On 26/04/06, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:
> And WTF has this all now got to do with TT !
>
> I found some epson 4*6 photo paper, had a go, not much use it seemed
> to crack the image on it like a mirror.
>
> I have now got a bottle of gum arabic, tried kodak paper coated with
> that, made toner stick to paper like glue but not to the board!
>
>
> I just had another go back with the Kodak paper, I did the usual but
> applied heat for 3 minutes directly onto the paper and it went brown!
>
> It did not stick to the iron, in fact at full heat it was like ironing
> teflon, I left it to soak about 15 minutes, not a thing, its got to be
> the most resiliant paper made for photos.
>
> I started to wirewool through the paper layers at a time until it was
> thin enough to see the image very cleary, I kept working at it till I
> was down to the toner and copper, result, an hour or so of rubbing,
> one near perfect board.....
>
> The toner areas where THICK, really thick, the paper is evil but made
> for a good etch.
>
> So, kodak will work, bt it takes work, and I need new skin for my
> thumbs..........
>
> Off to do another board now....
>


--



Lez

- Looking for early starwars (episode 4, original starwars)
recordings, even pirate
-
- I dont need your originals just some information about running time
- and scene cut points
-
-
- also looking for a car, silver or white, 4 doors -
- diesel with a bosch pump, abs and pas -
- aircon would be nice, and not a ford -

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-26 by Lez

laser, an old hp5l I paid 3ukp/$6 for at a carboot/yardsale.

Lol just realised why you asked, inkjet paper, yeah it would be great
if it was working on the inkjet!

Main bug is this damn 5l wont let you select paper size in any
sensible way, you get a choice of a4/letter/legal or 5 pre set
envelopes, no custom size.


> Just one question: Are you using
> this with an inkjet or with a laser printer?
> Alan

Re: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-26 by fenrir_co

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:
>
> When is paper paper, not when its kodak paper........
>
> I just found an older pack, it works a treat!

Kodak has changed their paper formulation multiple times in the past
five years. If you have an 'older' version, the newer ones will
probably not work the same. Kodak paper is generally not very useful
for inkjets either ;) The stack of older Kodak I have won't work with
either my new HP or Epson, the ink just puddles on it and gets all
gooey.


> I did the usual clean board, wipe with a dilute etchant to take the
> shine off and leave salmon pink (I'm on ferric from maplins uk) then
> iron on for about 3 mins etc, drop into cold water.
>
>
> When you come to take it out the water it peels off with a loud
> creaking noise as the toner splits from the glossy backing.
>
> This leaves a toner only coating on the board as opposed to toner
> and gloss.
>
> This paper is ''kodak inkjet photo paper' 190gm2 cat 178 3547,
> kp105417, 38302 41, 04fkc7 17, I dont know which number is specific
> to it but its a 50 sheet pack
>
> The one that makes really proud toner and gloss fibre tracks is
> 'kod-aper glossy inkjet paper' 180gm2 thickness 0.21mm but has no
> cat
> number or barcode or anything and is 25 sheets in a (shrink)wrap
>
> In fact I think its a fake paper, made to look like kodak etc, looks
> like I may have been duped I thought I was buying kodak!
>

It might, it might not be. If you got it in a small computer store,
etc, they could simply have bought a 500 page ream and split it up for
resale. Depending on how old it is, however, don't expect any new
Kodak you bought to work. I think they just came out with /another/
new formulation for the stuff this year.

One thing that I haven't seen mentioned often is that even if you can
run inkjet paper through your laser printer without having it melt or
jam inside of it, it is quite likely that there is 'dust' from the
coating, whether clay or otherwise (there are two kinds of inkjet
photo paper, polymer-swellable and microporous), coming off of the
paper that will eventually wreck your printer. This is precisely why
print shops will refuse to run paper you bring in through their
printers. When I use the HP laser glossy photo paper at Staples, they
often check to make sure it's not inkjet paper because it can ruin
their machines. I just think people should be aware you are taking
this risk when you use the inkjet paper in a laser printer, at the
very least, the drum might need to be replaced more often.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-27 by Lez

> etc, they could simply have bought a 500 page ream and split it up for
> resale. Depending on how old it is, however, don't expect any new

No I have now done asearch with google and it seems kod-aper is not
kodak paper as the name would mislead you into believing, I think that
deliberate....

> One thing that I haven't seen mentioned often is that even if you can
> run inkjet paper through your laser printer without having it melt or
> jam inside of it, it is quite likely that there is 'dust' from the
> coating, whether clay or otherwise (there are two kinds of inkjet


I didnt know about the dust issue, but as both these papers are gloss,
they are not 'dusty'

The true kodak peels off and just leaves thes toner, and as you
pointed on, on copper fill areas and wide traces it can etch through.

The kod-aper, which takens an eternity to get off, does not leave
fibres but an almost plastic/rubberised film, which with the heat
seems to slighty stick to the copper in the non toner areas making
removal difficult, and in the toner areas very hard to remove and very
proud of the surface, it gives an excellent etch if you can stand the
removal process of the paper (wire wool and lots of finger rubbing,
and then a plastic scourer for between toner tracks, dont worry the
toner tracks dont come off that easy with this paper)

Re: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-04-27 by fenrir_co

> > One thing that I haven't seen mentioned often is that even if you
> > can
> > run inkjet paper through your laser printer without having it melt
> > or
> > jam inside of it, it is quite likely that there is 'dust' from the
> > coating, whether clay or otherwise (there are two kinds of inkjet
>
>
> I didnt know about the dust issue, but as both these papers are
> gloss,
> they are not 'dusty'
>

It's not something that you'll see dusting off of the paper, it's more
of a 'residue' that the inkjet paper leaves on the drum. Eventually it
will cause streaks and dead spots on the page. Some inkjet papers have
no heat resistance and will simply melt the first time through (this
is more likely with transparencies and clear labels).

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Some toner transfer experiments

2006-05-01 by lists

In article <001b01c66954$bcd17210$6a00a8c0@xp2500>,
Henrik Olsson <henrik-olsson@...> wrote:
> For example, take your average speaker, it will probably have a label on it
> saying Impedance 4-8ohm but if you take your meter and measure the
> resistance of the coil it will be near zero ohm.

Not really true, I think.

I was once told that, as a rough rule of thumb, if you need to estimate
the impedance of an unkown speaker, measure the DC resistance and multiply
by 1.4