Homebrew PCBs

Hi guys, just performed some simple experiments using my laser 
printer.
I found some hp photo paper samples that I got free with with a HP 
inkjet, and I thought I'd give TT a go after reading some previous 
posts about using coated papers.
Well, I also bought some green kitchen scrubbers that really give the 
PCB surface a good clean and surface key (they even turn the scrubber 
copper coloured).
I printed out some text onto the sheet with the printer set to 
transparency (more toner??). I ironed the sheet onto the cleaned PCB 
and waited. Now the good part, soaking.
While the PCB was still touch-hot I did a test peel (a small corner) 
and the toner stuch to the copper and pulled the coating off the 
paper but only where adhered to the toner.
The pcb was still reasonably hot i used a sponge and soaked the paper 
from the back and it instantly softened. I started peeling and the 
paper peel off even easier. Even more soaking made the process much 
easier, the board being rather hot I think aided the process by 
almost steaming the paper.
The first attempt was 90-99% transferred, a bit of rubbing with my 
finger removed some toner but the vast majority was well fixed.
I looked at the condition of the paper and pcb after allowing them to 
dry. The toner had a slightly grey tinge from the coating off the 
paper.
The paper was in great condition with only surface coating missing 
where toner had been printed and subsequently transferred to the pcb, 
kind of like using the press and peel system where blue is left where 
no toner is printed (make sense??).
The areas of the PCB which were in contact with the paper coating 
appear not to have any of the paper coating transferred so no 
problems with the entire board being coated.

The only problem I have is that the free paper came with 2 slightly 
different shades of coating but with no indication if one is matt and 
the other is gloss finish...I see some more experiments coming.

regards, PK

Last night I tried kodak gloss for TT with an old hp5l, copper was
cleaned and polished, not very successful, it 'lifted' as the board
cooled, no doubt as the board cooled and contracted a mm or so after
the heat

Where it stuck it was stuck, and quite thick, but it also had a lot of
the papers gloss topcoat betwen tracks which had to removed carefully,
and in fine areas was near impossible.

Will try tonight with a longer press and less heat.

I dont want to use 'store brand' papers as a store will often change
sources monthly to get the best profit margin..........

I may buy some HP next if I can find it on a good offer.

On 24/04/06, onenastyviper <oneNastyViper@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hi guys, just performed some simple experiments using my laser
> printer.
> I found some hp photo paper samples that I got free with with a HP
> inkjet, and I thought I'd give TT a go after reading some previous
> posts about using coated papers.

I don't know about circuit trace problems with paper coatings.
I do know that using the paper and soaking it with a sponge whilst the 
pcb is still hot steams the paper and softens it a lot.
I don't have much more time at the moment to investigate (uni work) but 
if I have a spare couple of hours, I will try a complex pcb design.
One other thing I do know, a product called 'cold clean' available from 
Maplins (yeah, not exactly the best source) does dissolve hp original 
toner easily, so reworking is really quick.

regards, PK

Sorry about the confusing replies, I've not used this system in a while 
(apart from my previous post)
It is unlikely that it is the PCB shrinking on cooling, more likely the 
paper, to heat a pcb enough to cause several mm of expansion would 
probably carbonise the toner and paper.
As for preparation, I used to think that the PCB had to be clean and 
polished but this process seems more like plastering where you give the 
wall (or PCB) a good key for the toner to adhere to...think of it like 
this, paper is fibrous, photo paper usually has some form of 
powdery/plasticy texture. If the PCB has a better surface finish (ie 
more polished) then in all likelyhood, the toner will remain adhered to 
the paper coating rather than the PCB. If you can, try using a clean 
scrubby texture - non soap impregnated type and scrub the surface of 
the copper to leave fine marks, I used circular motion with plain water 
and dry it using lint free cloths (I used kitchen paper which doesn't 
break down easily with water). I also did not iron the paper directly 
but used another peice of paper in between. It allowed the iron to move 
over the the pcb.

One thing to note is that I tried this process using text rather than a 
circuit (just a page from a report that I wrote). I inspected the 
lettering which had fine detail (e's, 8's).

PK

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:
>
> Last night I tried kodak gloss for TT with an old hp5l, copper was
> cleaned and polished, not very successful, it 'lifted' as the board
> cooled, no doubt as the board cooled and contracted a mm or so after
> the heat
> Where it stuck it was stuck, and quite thick, but it also had a lot > 
of the papers gloss topcoat betwen tracks which had to removed 

> carefully, and in fine areas was near impossible.
> 
> Will try tonight with a longer press and less heat.
> 
> I dont want to use 'store brand' papers as a store will often change
> sources monthly to get the best profit margin..........
> 
> I may buy some HP next if I can find it on a good offer.

On 24/04/06, onenastyviper <oneNastyViper@...> wrote:

> One other thing I do know, a product called 'cold clean' available from
> Maplins (yeah, not exactly the best source) does dissolve hp original
> toner easily, so reworking is really quick.
>

but not as cheap as wire wool.......

On 24/04/06, onenastyviper <oneNastyViper@...> wrote:
> Sorry about the confusing replies, I've not used this system in a while
> (apart from my previous post)
> It is unlikely that it is the PCB shrinking on cooling, more likely the
> paper, to heat a pcb enough to cause several mm of expansion would
> probably carbonise the toner and paper.

No trust me its the pcb that expands/contracts etc

After heating the paper is well stuck and the board is slightly bent,
as it cools the bend goes back to flat and the paper lifts in the
centre.

Seems my copper expands more than my pcb backing material.


> break down easily with water). I also did not iron the paper directly
> but used another peice of paper in between. It allowed the iron to move
> over the the pcb.

I'l try that idea.

>
> One thing to note is that I tried this process using text rather than a
> circuit (just a page from a report that I wrote). I inspected the
> lettering which had fine detail (e's, 8's).

lol I have no text but a lovely pcb that I need to do

--



Lez

- Looking for early starwars (episode 4, original starwars)
recordings, even pirate
-
- I dont need your originals just some information about running time
- and scene cut points
-
-
- also looking for a car, silver or white, 4 doors -
- diesel with a bosch pump, abs and pas  -
- aircon would be nice, and not a ford       -

On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 21:39:13 +0200, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:

> No trust me its the pcb that expands/contracts etc
>
>
> After heating the paper is well stuck and the board is slightly bent,
>
> as it cools the bend goes back to flat and the paper lifts in the
>
> centre.
>
>
> Seems my copper expands more than my pcb backing material.


If that's so you must have really shoddy PCB material ;-)

The glass fiber reinforced one doesn definitely not move...

ST

>
> If that's so you must have really shoddy PCB material ;-)
>
> The glass fiber reinforced one doesn definitely not move...
>

Its very thin, but all I have.

maybe thats why its bending.

maybe I should hold the iron on, wait, switch it off and remove
pressure when cold........

I wouldn't really use wire wool unless you can get stainless steel 
because of possible rusting problems with ordinary steel wire wool 
which tends to rust in a few hours, smaller peices which can be 
embedded into the copper will rust very quickly.
As for the board warping, true, the copper will expand differently to 
the substrate but the amount of warping may be relatively large but the 
actual amount will typically be around tenths of a mm unless your board 
is *really* curling up;-)
Do you wait for the board to cool completely before soaking the paper?
Also, can you physically 'feel' the toner on the paper like braile?
I noticed this the first time I printed on the photo paper with the 
printer of 'transparency' setting.

PK

I use 'Epson Photo Paper'
-glossy finish / heavy weight for cards and photos
with excellent results.

..put your iron at maximum (measured 225C)
..place a non heat conductive surface (hard cardboard) and one or two layers of
paper towel under the board
..place the board clean (I use pan scrubber) and dry copper side up
..place laser printed paper face down (and align as needed)
..place another paper towel on top (important!)
..place iron flat on top and let the whole heat up, don't move
..apply reasonable pressure and move somewhat because of the holes
..remove iron and towel and 'gently' scrub the edge of the iron along the more
important places to insure best point heating. sometimes I also use the (round)
tip of the iron along critical areas
..lift board and turn and repeat if double sided (the towel should yellow
slightly)
..now drop the (hot) board into a bowl with cold or warm water and let soak for
a couple of minutes
..carefully lift an edge slowly off and let the water in. sometimes the paper
will simply float off by itself
..with a medium toothbrush remove the 'white' remains (dry and re-wet as often
as needed), specially between tight traces and in holes
..look at the removed paper: no black dots should remain on it. if there are
any, you didn't use the iron tip properly or you soaked not long enough.


--- Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:

> Last night I tried kodak gloss for TT with an old hp5l, copper was
> cleaned and polished, not very successful, it 'lifted' as the board
> cooled, no doubt as the board cooled and contracted a mm or so after
> the heat
> 
> Where it stuck it was stuck, and quite thick, but it also had a lot of
> the papers gloss topcoat betwen tracks which had to removed carefully,
> and in fine areas was near impossible.
> 
> Will try tonight with a longer press and less heat.
> 


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Emm, well I polished board, placed paper on it, had it on a phone
book, didnt have a paper towel on top but it never stuck to iron etc,
I held iron on a good minute, after a minute I could not see it
getting any hotter, when cold enough to touch I slipped it into the
water for aboout 5 minutes, then started rubbing.

The paper seems to be bonded together very well and took about 30
minutes to rub off, my thumbs still sore.

In fact the back of the paper seems to be like plastic, but does not
melt etc so cant be.

I really think its just a bad choice of paper for TT.




Lez

- Looking for early starwars (episode 4, original starwars)
recordings, even pirate
-
- I dont need your originals just some information about running time
- and scene cut points
-
-
- also looking for a car, silver or white, 4 doors -
- diesel with a bosch pump, abs and pas  -
- aircon would be nice, and not a ford       -

the paper towel trick is to ensure a gentle heat transfer and to avoid the risk
of squeezing the traces.
you don't have to 'rub' the paper off, you must 'peel' it off. the rubbing is
with a brush to remove the rest of coating from between traces and in holes
(will prevent etching!). just leave it enough time in the water and lift the
borders slightly to let the water slip in (under) and do its work...
5 minutes may not be enough, 10 to 12 is more likely if you have thick
waterproof paper!
the epson photo paper (not extra glossy) usually swims off after some 4-5
minutes... ah, and drop the 'hot' board into the water, don't touch it, use
whatever you have by hand to push it!



--- Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:

> Emm, well I polished board, placed paper on it, had it on a phone
> book, didnt have a paper towel on top but it never stuck to iron etc,
> I held iron on a good minute, after a minute I could not see it
> getting any hotter, when cold enough to touch I slipped it into the
> water for aboout 5 minutes, then started rubbing.
> 
> The paper seems to be bonded together very well and took about 30
> minutes to rub off, my thumbs still sore.
> 
> In fact the back of the paper seems to be like plastic, but does not
> melt etc so cant be.
> 
> I really think its just a bad choice of paper for TT.
>  
> Lez


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Well by the time I got back from a trip to the car store to get some
new trailer lights, I didnt have time to go to the art shop, but
pc-world is open for another few hours may have a drive up and look at
the price of epson photo paper, I won some hp on ebay.

Will get the gum tomorro.

Hi guys,

OK, so a 'mil' is actually a 'thou' which is 0.001in or 
0.0254mm...sorted ;-)

If people are having problems soaking boards and them contracting have 
they tried just soaking the paper on the top?

From what I've tried, the toner seems to set quite quickly once the 
iron or other heat source is removed but the board is still hot 
(>90degC). I would guesstimate that the toner melts above 100degC so if 
the board hisses when water is applied, chances are it is still too hot 
to attempt any form of water attack.

OK, if its plastic backed why not score some slight lines though this 
layer to allow water to penetrate it?

regards, PK

On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 12:54:53 +0200, onenastyviper  
<oneNastyViper@...> wrote:

>
> OK, if its plastic backed why not score some slight lines though this
>
> layer to allow water to penetrate it?
>
>
> regards, PK
>


I do this even with the thicker coated normal paper. A wire brush works  
great. Of course care is required.

ST

--- onenastyviper <oneNastyViper@...> wrote:
...
> OK, if its plastic backed why not score some slight lines though this 
> layer to allow water to penetrate it?

why do you insist in making it the hard way?
use another paper!!!
epson photo paper works like a charm... not dirt cheap, but works!

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Because my epson paper has not arrived yet!

Oh and I tried some 6*4 epson phot cards, not very good.......
They seemed to 'melt' and smeared the tracks and caused cracks like a
broken mirror.
The tracks that where straight looked like a road down a mountainside!

I hope the a4 sheets are not like the little photo sized sheets.


On 27/04/06, Herbert E. Plett <cachureos@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> why do you insist in making it the hard way?
> use another paper!!!
> epson photo paper works like a charm... not dirt cheap, but works!


Lez

- Looking for early starwars (episode 4, original starwars)
recordings, even pirate
-
- I dont need your originals just some information about running time
- and scene cut points
-
-
- also looking for a car, silver or white, 4 doors -
- diesel with a bosch pump, abs and pas  -
- aircon would be nice, and not a ford       -

--- Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:

> Because my epson paper has not arrived yet!
> 
> Oh and I tried some 6*4 epson phot cards, not very good.......
> They seemed to 'melt' and smeared the tracks and caused cracks like a
> broken mirror.
> The tracks that where straight looked like a road down a mountainside!
> 
> I hope the a4 sheets are not like the little photo sized sheets.

at first I used pages torn out of catalogs (glossy paper) but they also require
some rubbing...
to save on the paper I now pre-print the image on normal laser paper, then cut
a piece of transfer paper the size needed, tape it just over the first image
(with masking tape) and re-run it through the printer. works 100%


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Yeah I like the tape on the required size idea, Ihave had no succes
with DipTrace trying to get it where I want on the paper.......

But that kod-aper is reall thick stuff when its on the tracks, it
feels like its .1 to .25 of a mm its so thick.

I also found it odd that thin tracks work better than thick.

Just found some more copper clad so I will be doing a few more
tonight, just dont know what to do now!

I tried the Epson glossy photo paper with my ML-2010 printer.  It takes the
printed image beautifully but the toner doesn't transfer to the copper very
well.  I put a piece of paper towel over it so that the iron wouldn't stick
and then heated it several minutes with the iron.  I let it cool and then
soaked it in hot water and about half of the traces didn't stick to the
copper.  I had scoured the board with a Scotchbrite pad and then rubbed it
thoroughly with acetone.  Should I have done something else to prepare the
board?  Can anyone see anything that I did wrong?  What procedure do you
follow to make the Epson paper "work like a charm"?

 

  _____  

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Herbert E. Plett
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 2:50 AM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner Transfer Paper

 

why do you insist in making it the hard way?
use another paper!!!
epson photo paper works like a charm... not dirt cheap, but works!

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- Mark Mickelsen <mark.mickelsen@...> wrote:

> I tried the Epson glossy photo paper with my ML-2010 printer.  It takes the
> printed image beautifully but the toner doesn't transfer to the copper very
> well.  I put a piece of paper towel over it so that the iron wouldn't stick

my first thought is either you printed too light, or the iron was not hot
enough. I measured abt. 225C (440F) on the iron when it clicked back on.

> and then heated it several minutes with the iron.  I let it cool and then
> soaked it in hot water and about half of the traces didn't stick to the
> copper.  I had scoured the board with a Scotchbrite pad and then rubbed it
> thoroughly with acetone.  Should I have done something else to prepare the
> board?  Can anyone see anything that I did wrong?  What procedure do you
> follow to make the Epson paper "work like a charm"?

it also can be the board is not really clean and rough.
I use a cream (local brand of no use to you) that contains a soft abrasive
(fine sand?), detergent and clorine and is used for pan and pot scrubbing. With
little water scrub the board until shiny (and scratched), rinse well under
running tap water and dry with kitchen paper towel... look: no distilled water,
lintfree cloth or alcohol, nothing fancy, but keep from touching after rinse
and TT immediately as scratched copper tends to rust very fast in air.
I use acetone based nail polish remover to remove toner from failed and etched
boards. Most failures are because of misalignments because I use to 'save' on
PCB by sizing and shaping it before TT and the edge traces fall off board.


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Thanks!

 

Does anyone know what the hottest hand iron on the market is?  Are older
models that might be available on Ebay hotter than the ones available today?

I found that even with a paper towel over the Epson paper, I wasn't able to
slide the iron around on the board so all I could do was just press down.
Any idea as to why I couldn't slide the iron around?  I'm thinking about
putting a piece of cloth over it next time.

The traces printed so nicely on the Epson paper that I really want to make
it work with the transfer.

 

  _____  

From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Herbert E. Plett
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 11:34 PM
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner Transfer Paper

 

--- Mark Mickelsen <mark.mickelsen@...> wrote:

> I tried the Epson glossy photo paper with my ML-2010 printer.  It takes
the
> printed image beautifully but the toner doesn't transfer to the copper
very
> well.  I put a piece of paper towel over it so that the iron wouldn't
stick

my first thought is either you printed too light, or the iron was not hot
enough. I measured abt. 225C (440F) on the iron when it clicked back on.

> and then heated it several minutes with the iron.  I let it cool and then
> soaked it in hot water and about half of the traces didn't stick to the
> copper.  I had scoured the board with a Scotchbrite pad and then rubbed it
> thoroughly with acetone.  Should I have done something else to prepare the
> board?  Can anyone see anything that I did wrong?  What procedure do you
> follow to make the Epson paper "work like a charm"?

it also can be the board is not really clean and rough.
I use a cream (local brand of no use to you) that contains a soft abrasive
(fine sand?), detergent and clorine and is used for pan and pot scrubbing.
With
little water scrub the board until shiny (and scratched), rinse well under
running tap water and dry with kitchen paper towel... look: no distilled
water,
lintfree cloth or alcohol, nothing fancy, but keep from touching after rinse
and TT immediately as scratched copper tends to rust very fast in air.
I use acetone based nail polish remover to remove toner from failed and
etched
boards. Most failures are because of misalignments because I use to 'save'
on
PCB by sizing and shaping it before TT and the edge traces fall off board.


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Try parchment paper, it has a silicone layer and should let the iron slide
nicely.  Parchment paper is used for baking, so heat should not be a
problem.

Robert
:)



> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De la part de Mark Mickelsen
> Envoyé : avril 28 2006 02:11
> À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner Transfer Paper
> 
> 
> Thanks!
> 
>  
> 
> Does anyone know what the hottest hand iron on the market is? 
>  Are older models that might be available on Ebay hotter than 
> the ones available today?
> 
> I found that even with a paper towel over the Epson paper, I 
> wasn't able to slide the iron around on the board so all I 
> could do was just press down. Any idea as to why I couldn't 
> slide the iron around?  I'm thinking about putting a piece of 
> cloth over it next time.
> 
> The traces printed so nicely on the Epson paper that I really 
> want to make it work with the transfer.
> 
>  
> 
>   _____  
> 
> From: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of Herbert E. Plett
> Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 11:34 PM
> To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Toner Transfer Paper
> 
>  
> 
> --- Mark Mickelsen <mark.mickelsen@...> wrote:
> 
> > I tried the Epson glossy photo paper with my ML-2010 printer.  It 
> > takes
> the
> > printed image beautifully but the toner doesn't transfer to 
> the copper
> very
> > well.  I put a piece of paper towel over it so that the 
> iron wouldn't
> stick
> 
> my first thought is either you printed too light, or the iron 
> was not hot enough. I measured abt. 225C (440F) on the iron 
> when it clicked back on.
> 
> > and then heated it several minutes with the iron.  I let it 
> cool and 
> > then soaked it in hot water and about half of the traces 
> didn't stick 
> > to the copper.  I had scoured the board with a Scotchbrite pad and 
> > then rubbed it thoroughly with acetone.  Should I have done 
> something 
> > else to prepare the board?  Can anyone see anything that I 
> did wrong?  
> > What procedure do you follow to make the Epson paper "work like a 
> > charm"?
> 
> it also can be the board is not really clean and rough.
> I use a cream (local brand of no use to you) that contains a 
> soft abrasive (fine sand?), detergent and clorine and is used 
> for pan and pot scrubbing. With little water scrub the board 
> until shiny (and scratched), rinse well under running tap 
> water and dry with kitchen paper towel... look: no distilled 
> water, lintfree cloth or alcohol, nothing fancy, but keep 
> from touching after rinse and TT immediately as scratched 
> copper tends to rust very fast in air. I use acetone based 
> nail polish remover to remove toner from failed and etched 
> boards. Most failures are because of misalignments because I 
> use to 'save' on PCB by sizing and shaping it before TT and 
> the edge traces fall off board.
> 
> 
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