Yahoo Groups archive

Homebrew_PCBs

Index last updated: 2026-03-31 23:13 UTC

Thread

Prepping PCB for printing with MISPRO pigmented ink

Prepping PCB for printing with MISPRO pigmented ink

2006-04-19 by Steve

Looking up where to find Tarn-X, I found out that the chemical in it
can be bought for next to nothing.

http://www.ganoksin.com/orchid/archive/200305/msg00153.htm

It isn't a polish or an etchant, it is a chemical that converts the
sulfides back to the base metal.

"If you like this and use more than occasional amounts, though, you
might wish to go straight to the source. The TarnX brand is just a
repackaged jar of a relatively weak solution of the chemical, with
fancy labeling and advertising budgets behind it. The actual
manufacturer of the chemical the TarnX folks use, is another company,
Vin Rock Inc 3024 Fontenay Rd Cleveland, OH 44120-1729 Phone: (216)
991-9593 They call it "CQ-2 silver cleaner". They sell a pound of
the dry chemical for (ten years ago, at any rate), around ten or
fifteen dollars, and it goes a long way. I don't have a web site URL
for them, and don't actually think they've got a web address, so
you'll have to use that old dinosour of ancient technology, the
telephone... That pound of chemical makes up a gallon of the full
strength solution, or if you want it the way the TarnX folks package
it, several gallons (packaged TarnX is mixed weaker than the
manufacturers recomendations, and doesn't last all that long as a
result). I got that tidbit on their dilution rate, from the Vin-roc
sales people when I bought the stuff by the way, and can attest that
mixed to the proper strength, it works a LOT faster. The stuff does
have a faint sulphur smell, which some people don't quite like, but
it's not especially harmful or anything "

Steve Greenfield

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Prepping PCB for printing with MISPRO pigmented ink

2006-04-19 by Stefan Trethan

On Wed, 19 Apr 2006 20:53:14 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Looking up where to find Tarn-X, I found out that the chemical in it
>
> can be bought for next to nothing.
>
>
> http://www.ganoksin.com/orchid/archive/200305/msg00153.htm


This one says it's thiourea!

"Toxic. Known animal carcinogen and probable human carcinogen."

And they still sell it in the US? Does it carry a health warning?

I'm not certain that link you gave is correct, but if it is, i'm out.
I decided some time ago i don't want to use that chemical (it would be
needed for electroless tin plating).

ST

[Homebrew_PCBs] RE: Prepping PCB for printing with MISPRO pigmented ink

2006-04-19 by Robert Hedan

I'm sticking to what has been working for me, #0000 steel wool from Bulldog
and acetone.

Robert
:)



Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De la part de Stefan Trethan
> Envoyé : avril 19 2006 15:10
> À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
> Objet : Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Prepping PCB for printing with
> MISPRO pigmented ink
>
>
> On Wed, 19 Apr 2006 20:53:14 +0200, Steve
> <alienrelics@...> wrote:
>
> > Looking up where to find Tarn-X, I found out that the chemical in it
> >
> > can be bought for next to nothing.
> >
> >
> > http://www.ganoksin.com/orchid/archive/200305/msg00153.htm
>

Re: Prepping PCB for printing with MISPRO pigmented ink

2006-04-19 by lcdpublishing

Stefan,

Here in the U.S., you can buy ANYTHING! and I do mean ANYTHING! If
you got the money, you can buy it. Sometimes you may need
some "papers", but you can get anything here.

I don't know if Tarnex is really "Key" to this process. In reality
if it is, I would probably do a pre-etch first and then try the
printing and such. I am pretty darn sure that all that is needed is
to clean the pre-existing chemicals and preservatives off the board
prior to printing. I would wager to say that we will be able to use
our existing prep-methods to do the printing.

I have a hunch there are two key elements to this whole ink-jet
printing thing..

1) The proper type of ink - solvent based as opposed to water based
and pigmented as opposed to dyes.

2) Curing that ink so that it doesn't wash away.

The little bit of playing around I did with the durabrite ink
with "Bone stock" PCB material showed me that it not only adheres,
but it doesn't bead up or puddle like the other inks.

So, I wouldn't worry too much about the Tarnex at this time.

But then again, I have been plenty wrong many times before :-)

Chris


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 19 Apr 2006 20:53:14 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:
>
> > Looking up where to find Tarn-X, I found out that the chemical
in it
> >
> > can be bought for next to nothing.
> >
> >
> > http://www.ganoksin.com/orchid/archive/200305/msg00153.htm
>
>
> This one says it's thiourea!
>
> "Toxic. Known animal carcinogen and probable human carcinogen."
>
> And they still sell it in the US? Does it carry a health warning?
>
> I'm not certain that link you gave is correct, but if it is, i'm
out.
> I decided some time ago i don't want to use that chemical (it
would be
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> needed for electroless tin plating).
>
> ST
>

Re: Prepping PCB for printing with MISPRO pigmented ink

2006-04-19 by Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> On Wed, 19 Apr 2006 20:53:14 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:
>
> > Looking up where to find Tarn-X, I found out that the chemical in it
> >
> > can be bought for next to nothing.
> >
> >
> > http://www.ganoksin.com/orchid/archive/200305/msg00153.htm
>
>
> This one says it's thiourea!
>
> "Toxic. Known animal carcinogen and probable human carcinogen."
>
> And they still sell it in the US? Does it carry a health warning?

The link I gave agrees with you:
"It's Thiocarbamide, also known as Thiouria."

Since it is -not- an acid but rather something to convert sulfides
back to pure copper, it may simply be enough to make sure you scrub
down to pure copper. That's what I'm going to try.

BTW, I vaguely recall someone telling me that liquids with a base pH
will tend to strip water based inkjet inks. So it may be important to
use FeCl. I had hoped to stop using FeCl, so I'm anxiously awaiting
the trials of other etchants.

Steve Greenfield

Re: Prepping PCB for printing with MISPRO pigmented ink

2006-04-19 by Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
...
> I don't know if Tarnex is really "Key" to this process. In reality
> if it is, I would probably do a pre-etch first and then try the
> printing and such. I am pretty darn sure that all that is needed is
> to clean the pre-existing chemicals and preservatives off the board
> prior to printing. I would wager to say that we will be able to use
> our existing prep-methods to do the printing.

I guess we'll see. After reading Stefan's post, I'd hope we don't
require Tarn-X.

> I have a hunch there are two key elements to this whole ink-jet
> printing thing..
>
> 1) The proper type of ink - solvent based as opposed to water based
> and pigmented as opposed to dyes.

The ink Volkan is using is water based. To put solvent based ink into
a desktop printer would require some work to convert it. The heads are
safe, it is the other parts that may not be compatible. There are
dozens of kinds of solvent ink, too, and it's typically only available
in large containers for large format printers.

> 2) Curing that ink so that it doesn't wash away.

It may be a simple matter of just assuring that it is completly dry.
See my previous posts about the slowness of inkjet ink drying.

Show quoted textHide quoted text
> The little bit of playing around I did with the durabrite ink
> with "Bone stock" PCB material showed me that it not only adheres,
> but it doesn't bead up or puddle like the other inks.

I'd actually prefer it be the MIS ink, as Durabrite formulation keeps
changing between Epson models. So if you have a C84 that works, a C82
or C80 or C86 or C88 may not work as well or at all. But the MIS ink
you can put in any Epson printer.

Steve Greenfield

Where's Tarn-X? Was-Re: Prepping PCB for printing with MISPRO pigmented ink

2006-04-19 by kilocycles

Steve,
I stumbled upon Tarn-X at the local Home Depot last week, and of
course I bought some. It was only $4.95, if I recall correctly, for
about a half-pint (if I recall correctly).

Ted

Show quoted textHide quoted text
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@...> wrote:
>
> Looking up where to find Tarn-X, I found out that the chemical in it
> can be bought for next to nothing.
>
> http://www.ganoksin.com/orchid/archive/200305/msg00153.htm
>
---snip---

Re: Prepping PCB for printing with MISPRO pigmented ink

2006-04-20 by kilocycles

Hmmm, the posted MSDS for Tarn-X doesn't say anything about carcinogens.

Ted

Show quoted textHide quoted text
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <alienrelics@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
> <stefan_trethan@> wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 19 Apr 2006 20:53:14 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@> wrote:
> >
> > > Looking up where to find Tarn-X, I found out that the chemical in it
> > >
> > > can be bought for next to nothing.
> > >
> > >
> > > http://www.ganoksin.com/orchid/archive/200305/msg00153.htm
> >
> >
> > This one says it's thiourea!
> >
> > "Toxic. Known animal carcinogen and probable human carcinogen."
> >
> > And they still sell it in the US? Does it carry a health warning?
>
> The link I gave agrees with you:
> "It's Thiocarbamide, also known as Thiouria."
---snip---

Re: Prepping PCB for printing with MISPRO pigmented ink

2006-04-21 by Len Warner

Wed, 19 Apr 2006 19:48, lcdpublishing wrote:
><snip Tarn-X>
>I have a hunch there are two key elements to this whole ink-jet
>printing thing..
>
>1) The proper type of ink - solvent based as opposed to water based

But water _is_ a solvent, and a darned good one at that :-)

However, it's a highly polar solvent, in contrast to the non-polar
hydrocarbons and the non- or slightly-polar other organics.

>and pigmented as opposed to dyes.

But pigments aren't dissolved (it's what distinguishes them from dyes.)

So both your criteria are rather confusing.

>2) Curing that ink so that it doesn't wash away.

Agreed, but you are relying on the binder in the mix: the "solvent"
is actually a carrier liquid, the pigment is the colour (which may
be irrelevant to the resist properties) and the binder is the glue
residue which holds the pigment particles onto the surface -
or the pigment would be as durable as a dry-wipe marker
on a smooth surface.

Because these inks are designed for a high-gloss finish, there
is a higher amount of binder as a lacquer to glaze the surface,
otherwise the printing appears dull against a gloss paper.
That's probably why we are having some success with this
family of inks as etch resist.

It may also explain why yellow is best - it is a very transparent
colour which may contain little or no pigment, whereas black
requires much. It's even possible that a heavy pigment load
weakens or perforates the binder layer.

Another approach would be to reinforce the ink: copperplate
print etchers of old used to draw with a grease pencil then
dust the image with "dragon's blood" (a resin powder) and
fuse, repeating as necessary to produce a nitric acid resist.
I wouldn't want to exercise that amount of skill but it might
be made to work, perhaps even with toner powder. The old
Kodak Diconix ink was very oily/sticky but the technology
is likely too old to resurrect.

A method AFAIK untried would be to coat the board with a raw
resist coating such as gelatin, albumen, gum arabic or PVA
and then jet-print with a tanning agent. Potassium dichromate
followed by UV harden, alkaline develop and bake would
probably work but I don't like to think what it might do to the
print head. Tannic acid might work. Boiled oak-galls might.
Eye of newt, etc. - wish we had a good chemist on the list. :-)
It might be worth asking on sci.chem

>The little bit of playing around I did with the durabrite ink
>with "Bone stock" PCB material showed me that it not only adheres,
>but it doesn't bead up or puddle like the other inks.

Beading and puddling is a surface energy phenomenon, an effect
mediated by the "wettability" of the surface by the liquid and
the surface tension of the liquid, both being the manifestation
of intermolecular attractions.

So both surface preparation and liquid composition play a part.

In respect of an aqueous liquid, the wettability of copper is
decreased by oily contamination of the surface and
increased by the presence of somewhat polar organics
such as alcohols or detergents as surfactants.

A "clean" copper surface is probably oxidized or carries
some other copper compound as a chemical tarnish derived
from its last bath - the wettability of this will be influenced
by chemical reactions as well as surface affinity.

So weak organic acids such as citric or acetic will probably
increase wettability in many situations and ammonia water,
which is alkaline and complexes copper, in others.
Acetic acid and ammonia seem to have solvent activity too.

Another possibility is a mild reducing agent

(It's subtle influences like this, combined with pre-treatment
of the surface, that makes litho printing possible.)

>So, I wouldn't worry too much about the Tarnex at this time.

I hold no brief for Tarn-X but it is worth considering what
pre-treatment might leave a molecular film to improve
the printing - it's easier than modifying the ink, because
it doesn't affect the ink delivery. Even something as
simple as buffing with a glycerin or hard-soap impregnated
cloth might have an effect (I only say that as an example
of technique, I don't know whether it would be beneficial.)
Microfibre cloth seems a good candidate: no lint and
a very fine fabric structure to dispense the agent.

This reasoning also leads on to the conclusion that when
a successful technique is found it will be necessary
to copy it with scrupulous attention to detail.

Regards, LenW
--
Wisdom, free to those with the capacity to receive it:
http://www.google.co.uk/search?&q=etiquette+%22top+posting%22

Re: Prepping PCB for printing with MISPRO pigmented ink

2006-04-21 by Len Warner

On Thu, 20 Apr 2006 at 00:07, kilocycles mumbled:

>Hmmm, the posted MSDS

Posted where? There's no Tarn-X MSDS or link to it
that I can find in a search of messages since Jan 26th.

Show quoted textHide quoted text
>for Tarn-X

Which Tarn-X? Tarn-X is a brand, not a product.

It doesn't seem to be widely marketed in the UK, I've never seen
any on the supermarket shelves and I don't know if it is available here.

Last time I Googled it to find out what you guys were talking about
I came up with _three_ products with three different formulations.

Of course, if you refer a jewellery making list you'll get the jewellery
cleaner formulation, but that isn't necessarily what other folks are
using on PCBs.

I wish you would be more precise. Identify the product then go to the
specific MSDS. Chemistry doesn't seem to be our forte. :-(


Regards, LenW
--
Please trim quotes to minimum for context, then
reply _below_ or interleave point-by-point replies.
Don't quote sigfiles, adverts or group links.

Re: Prepping PCB for printing with MISPRO pigmented ink

2006-04-21 by lcdpublishing

Hi Len,

That was one of the best "Techno-Babble" posts on this subject yet!
It would appear as though you have a really good understanding of
the chemistry involved in this process that we are trying to achieve.

Based on your experience, what exactly do you think we should be
doing? So far, the MIS inks seem to be "on top" as being capable of
resisting the etching as well as being able to be used in the
commonly available printers.

As for board prep, from first hand experience, I know that not all
PCB copper is the same. I had some where toner transfer works
perfectly everytime, yet others where I can't get toner to stick to
it unless I pre-etch it.

As most of us here are not chemists, nor do we play one on TV, all
we can do is experiment and try different things.

As for the requirements of board prep and solvents in inks (being
water or otherwise) etc. I came to my "hunches" above based on
something similar in experience. We have all used Sharpie brand
markers as a resist. I have used it on every type of PCB material I
have purchased.

Oddly enough, I have never had to do ANY board prep work to get that
ink to adhere and work good. I don't believe it is water based (or
uses water as a solvent) and being that black is the standard color,
it also makes pretty good sense that black ink should also work in
ink jet printing. Now if we could extract the Sharpie ink out of the
pen, AND get it to pass through an ink jet printer, we would have
our solution that works very reliably. My hope is that the MIS inks
are similar enough in "chemsitry" that they will perform in an ink
jet printer as well as the sharpie pens :-)

Chris




Show quoted textHide quoted text
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Len Warner <yahoo@...> wrote:
>
> Wed, 19 Apr 2006 19:48, lcdpublishing wrote:
> ><snip Tarn-X>
> >I have a hunch there are two key elements to this whole ink-jet
> >printing thing..
> >
> >1) The proper type of ink - solvent based as opposed to water
based
>
> But water _is_ a solvent, and a darned good one at that :-)
>
> However, it's a highly polar solvent, in contrast to the non-polar
> hydrocarbons and the non- or slightly-polar other organics.
>
> >and pigmented as opposed to dyes.
>
> But pigments aren't dissolved (it's what distinguishes them from
dyes.)
>
> So both your criteria are rather confusing.
>
> >2) Curing that ink so that it doesn't wash away.
>
> Agreed, but you are relying on the binder in the mix: the "solvent"
> is actually a carrier liquid, the pigment is the colour (which may
> be irrelevant to the resist properties) and the binder is the glue
> residue which holds the pigment particles onto the surface -
> or the pigment would be as durable as a dry-wipe marker
> on a smooth surface.
>
> Because these inks are designed for a high-gloss finish, there
> is a higher amount of binder as a lacquer to glaze the surface,
> otherwise the printing appears dull against a gloss paper.
> That's probably why we are having some success with this
> family of inks as etch resist.
>
> It may also explain why yellow is best - it is a very transparent
> colour which may contain little or no pigment, whereas black
> requires much. It's even possible that a heavy pigment load
> weakens or perforates the binder layer.
>
> Another approach would be to reinforce the ink: copperplate
> print etchers of old used to draw with a grease pencil then
> dust the image with "dragon's blood" (a resin powder) and
> fuse, repeating as necessary to produce a nitric acid resist.
> I wouldn't want to exercise that amount of skill but it might
> be made to work, perhaps even with toner powder. The old
> Kodak Diconix ink was very oily/sticky but the technology
> is likely too old to resurrect.
>
> A method AFAIK untried would be to coat the board with a raw
> resist coating such as gelatin, albumen, gum arabic or PVA
> and then jet-print with a tanning agent. Potassium dichromate
> followed by UV harden, alkaline develop and bake would
> probably work but I don't like to think what it might do to the
> print head. Tannic acid might work. Boiled oak-galls might.
> Eye of newt, etc. - wish we had a good chemist on the list. :-)
> It might be worth asking on sci.chem
>
> >The little bit of playing around I did with the durabrite ink
> >with "Bone stock" PCB material showed me that it not only adheres,
> >but it doesn't bead up or puddle like the other inks.
>
> Beading and puddling is a surface energy phenomenon, an effect
> mediated by the "wettability" of the surface by the liquid and
> the surface tension of the liquid, both being the manifestation
> of intermolecular attractions.
>
> So both surface preparation and liquid composition play a part.
>
> In respect of an aqueous liquid, the wettability of copper is
> decreased by oily contamination of the surface and
> increased by the presence of somewhat polar organics
> such as alcohols or detergents as surfactants.
>
> A "clean" copper surface is probably oxidized or carries
> some other copper compound as a chemical tarnish derived
> from its last bath - the wettability of this will be influenced
> by chemical reactions as well as surface affinity.
>
> So weak organic acids such as citric or acetic will probably
> increase wettability in many situations and ammonia water,
> which is alkaline and complexes copper, in others.
> Acetic acid and ammonia seem to have solvent activity too.
>
> Another possibility is a mild reducing agent
>
> (It's subtle influences like this, combined with pre-treatment
> of the surface, that makes litho printing possible.)
>
> >So, I wouldn't worry too much about the Tarnex at this time.
>
> I hold no brief for Tarn-X but it is worth considering what
> pre-treatment might leave a molecular film to improve
> the printing - it's easier than modifying the ink, because
> it doesn't affect the ink delivery. Even something as
> simple as buffing with a glycerin or hard-soap impregnated
> cloth might have an effect (I only say that as an example
> of technique, I don't know whether it would be beneficial.)
> Microfibre cloth seems a good candidate: no lint and
> a very fine fabric structure to dispense the agent.
>
> This reasoning also leads on to the conclusion that when
> a successful technique is found it will be necessary
> to copy it with scrupulous attention to detail.
>
> Regards, LenW
> --
> Wisdom, free to those with the capacity to receive it:
> http://www.google.co.uk/search?&q=etiquette+%22top+posting%22
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Prepping PCB for printing with MISPRO pigmented ink

2006-04-21 by Stefan Trethan

On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 13:38:24 +0200, Len Warner <yahoo@...>
wrote:

>
>
> Another approach would be to reinforce the ink: copperplate
>
> print etchers of old used to draw with a grease pencil then
>
> dust the image with "dragon's blood" (a resin powder)


Now i finally know a application for that!
I was always wondering what dragon's blood and seafoam dust does on the
stock list of my chemicals shop.

By the way i asked the inksupply.com people if they had any idea why the
yellow would work better for our application, and if it is OK to mix inks.
I wasn't expecting anything, that's what i got:

Show quoted textHide quoted text
> *

Hello Stefan,

Unfortunately we cannot really provide any useful information because we
have no experience with this method of printing. The only reasonable
explanations we can give you is that the viscosity with the lighter colors
are allwing to absorb and dry. Where you will find A thicker consistency
with the darker colors not allowing it to dry and most likely staying A
liquid on top of the copper. Also we do not recommend mixing the colors
because it is hard to say the reaction it may have with the printhead,also
the colors will never come out correctly.

Sincerely,


RobCustomer ServiceMIS Associates, Inc

*>

Well, for what it's worth i wanted to forward it. I think they publish
those questions anyway in some FAQ so i took the liberty to quote the
author without permission. Don't try to sue me on copyright charges i'll
insist it was for satirical purposes ;-)
I did not change the text in any way, it's there just as i got it, just in
case you wonder....

ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Prepping PCB for printing with MISPRO pigmented ink

2006-04-21 by Stefan Trethan

On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 15:44:58 +0200, lcdpublishing
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Oddly enough, I have never had to do ANY board prep work to get that
>
> ink to adhere and work good. I don't believe it is water based (or
>
> uses water as a solvent) and being that black is the standard color,
>
> it also makes pretty good sense that black ink should also work in
>
> ink jet printing. Now if we could extract the Sharpie ink out of the
>
> pen, AND get it to pass through an ink jet printer, we would have
>
> our solution that works very reliably. My hope is that the MIS inks
>
> are similar enough in "chemsitry" that they will perform in an ink
>
> jet printer as well as the sharpie pens


The sharpie pen ink will not work as resist because it will not pass your
printer.
It will dry so fast you are left with a totally clogged up head that won't
clean with anything, ever.
Been there, destroied that.

Chris, i think we need to talk about the ink shopping again offlist. My
understanding is one would need yellow and black. I'm not quite sure about
amounts. Anyway let me know what you think about it.

ST

Re: Prepping PCB for printing with MISPRO pigmented ink

2006-04-21 by derekhawkins

>Now if we could extract the Sharpie ink out of the
>pen

Permanent marker ink is easy to get and cheap. Doesn't have to be
Sharpie ink. Getting it to work in even a Technical Pen **as is** would
be an uphill task IMO. You'll probably need a tail of snake and eye of
newt to get it to work in an inkjet printer.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Prepping PCB for printing with MISPRO pigmented ink

2006-04-21 by Mycroft2152

"Techno-Bqbble" is only useful after passing through a
Pragmatic filter. Usually there is nothing left.

Seriously, for direct to pcb printing to be practical,
it must use commonly availible components. Of course
there will be the the few that will go to extremes.

The MIS ink results have not yet been duplicated.
Anyone?

More postings have been concerned with converting
printers for flat bed printing and cleaning
printheads. This is re-inventing the wheel, CD
printers are now commonplace.

Based on the discussion to date, the simplest method
is to use an EPSON R220 CD printer with MIS ink,
filled replacement cartridges.

Once the MIS Ink use is validated, then ~$50 will buy
the ink and cartidges.

Myc

Side posting alert!

L
e
n

d
r
o
p
y

t
h
e

l
i
n
k
s

a
b
o
u
t

t
o
p

p
o
s
t
i
n
g
!

:
)




--- lcdpublishing <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

> Hi Len,
>
> That was one of the best "Techno-Babble" posts on
> this subject yet!
> It would appear as though you have a really good
> understanding of
> the chemistry involved in this process that we are
> trying to achieve.
>
> Based on your experience, what exactly do you think
> we should be
> doing? So far, the MIS inks seem to be "on top" as
> being capable of
> resisting the etching as well as being able to be
> used in the
> commonly available printers.
>
> As for board prep, from first hand experience, I
> know that not all
> PCB copper is the same. I had some where toner
> transfer works
> perfectly everytime, yet others where I can't get
> toner to stick to
> it unless I pre-etch it.
>
> As most of us here are not chemists, nor do we play
> one on TV, all
> we can do is experiment and try different things.
>
> As for the requirements of board prep and solvents
> in inks (being
> water or otherwise) etc. I came to my "hunches"
> above based on
> something similar in experience. We have all used
> Sharpie brand
> markers as a resist. I have used it on every type
> of PCB material I
> have purchased.
>
> Oddly enough, I have never had to do ANY board prep
> work to get that
> ink to adhere and work good. I don't believe it is
> water based (or
> uses water as a solvent) and being that black is the
> standard color,
> it also makes pretty good sense that black ink
> should also work in
> ink jet printing. Now if we could extract the
> Sharpie ink out of the
> pen, AND get it to pass through an ink jet printer,
> we would have
> our solution that works very reliably. My hope is
> that the MIS inks
> are similar enough in "chemsitry" that they will
> perform in an ink
> jet printer as well as the sharpie pens :-)
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Len Warner
> <yahoo@...> wrote:
> >
> > Wed, 19 Apr 2006 19:48, lcdpublishing wrote:
> > ><snip Tarn-X>
> > >I have a hunch there are two key elements to this
> whole ink-jet
> > >printing thing..
> > >
> > >1) The proper type of ink - solvent based as
> opposed to water
> based
> >
> > But water _is_ a solvent, and a darned good one at
> that :-)
> >
> > However, it's a highly polar solvent, in contrast
> to the non-polar
> > hydrocarbons and the non- or slightly-polar other
> organics.
> >
> > >and pigmented as opposed to dyes.
> >
> > But pigments aren't dissolved (it's what
> distinguishes them from
> dyes.)
> >
> > So both your criteria are rather confusing.
> >
> > >2) Curing that ink so that it doesn't wash away.
> >
> > Agreed, but you are relying on the binder in the
> mix: the "solvent"
> > is actually a carrier liquid, the pigment is the
> colour (which may
> > be irrelevant to the resist properties) and the
> binder is the glue
> > residue which holds the pigment particles onto the
> surface -
> > or the pigment would be as durable as a dry-wipe
> marker
> > on a smooth surface.
> >
> > Because these inks are designed for a high-gloss
> finish, there
> > is a higher amount of binder as a lacquer to glaze
> the surface,
> > otherwise the printing appears dull against a
> gloss paper.
> > That's probably why we are having some success
> with this
> > family of inks as etch resist.
> >
> > It may also explain why yellow is best - it is a
> very transparent
> > colour which may contain little or no pigment,
> whereas black
> > requires much. It's even possible that a heavy
> pigment load
> > weakens or perforates the binder layer.
> >
> > Another approach would be to reinforce the ink:
> copperplate
> > print etchers of old used to draw with a grease
> pencil then
> > dust the image with "dragon's blood" (a resin
> powder) and
> > fuse, repeating as necessary to produce a nitric
> acid resist.
> > I wouldn't want to exercise that amount of skill
> but it might
> > be made to work, perhaps even with toner powder.
> The old
> > Kodak Diconix ink was very oily/sticky but the
> technology
> > is likely too old to resurrect.
> >
> > A method AFAIK untried would be to coat the board
> with a raw
> > resist coating such as gelatin, albumen, gum
> arabic or PVA
> > and then jet-print with a tanning agent. Potassium
> dichromate
> > followed by UV harden, alkaline develop and bake
> would
> > probably work but I don't like to think what it
> might do to the
> > print head. Tannic acid might work. Boiled
> oak-galls might.
> > Eye of newt, etc. - wish we had a good chemist on
> the list. :-)
> > It might be worth asking on sci.chem
> >
> > >The little bit of playing around I did with the
> durabrite ink
> > >with "Bone stock" PCB material showed me that it
> not only adheres,
> > >but it doesn't bead up or puddle like the other
> inks.
> >
> > Beading and puddling is a surface energy
> phenomenon, an effect
> > mediated by the "wettability" of the surface by
> the liquid and
> > the surface tension of the liquid, both being the
> manifestation
> > of intermolecular attractions.
> >
> > So both surface preparation and liquid composition
> play a part.
> >
> > In respect of an aqueous liquid, the wettability
> of copper is
> > decreased by oily contamination of the surface and
> > increased by the presence of somewhat polar
> organics
> > such as alcohols or detergents as surfactants.
> >
> > A "clean" copper surface is probably oxidized or
> carries
> > some other copper compound as a chemical tarnish
> derived
> > from its last bath - the wettability of this will
> be influenced
> > by chemical reactions as well as surface affinity.
> >
> > So weak organic acids such as citric or acetic
> will probably
> > increase wettability in many situations and
> ammonia water,
> > which is alkaline and complexes copper, in others.
> > Acetic acid and ammonia seem to have solvent
> activity too.
> >
> > Another possibility is a mild reducing agent
> >
> > (It's subtle influences like this, combined with
> pre-treatment
> > of the surface, that makes litho printing
> possible.)
>
=== message truncated ===


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

Re: Prepping PCB for printing with MISPRO pigmented ink

2006-04-21 by lcdpublishing

Yeah, I figured the sharpie ink wouldn't work in the ink-jet. But,
if the MIS inks perform the same (ie. stick well, dry well, resist
etching well, etc.), then the chances of many people have good
success with the process is much higher. I don't ever recall anyone
saying they couldn't get Sharpie ink to stick to their PCB for
etching. So, that was the point of message before, if the MIS inks
perform the same, this is going to be a pretty reliable and
repeatable process.

Chris

-PS, Stefan, check your email.


> The sharpie pen ink will not work as resist because it will not
pass your
> printer.
> It will dry so fast you are left with a totally clogged up head
that won't
> clean with anything, ever.
> Been there, destroied that.
>
> Chris, i think we need to talk about the ink shopping again
offlist. My
> understanding is one would need yellow and black. I'm not quite
sure about
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> amounts. Anyway let me know what you think about it.
>
> ST
>

Re: Prepping PCB for printing with MISPRO pigmented ink

2006-04-21 by Chris Horne

Years ago I did once try printing pad ink in an epson stylus color,
and it printed ok..
(you can tell how long ago as the printer was new at the time!)

I guess the nozzles on those were larger so it may not directly relate
to the newer printers.

The ink I was using was a permanent ink specifically formulated for
printing with rubber printing pads onto paper, I only tried it on
paper but the results were reasonable.

The pad ink is a slow drying ink so there may be some mileage in it

That particular project ended up on the shelf and was totally
unrelated to pcbs.. but it might be worth experimenting, at least to
see how the ink coats pcbs and resists water.

it is a pity the printers with the heads built into the cartridges are
not suitable.. it takes a brave person to put ink into a printer that
can be completely destroyed by a bad choice :-(

Still watching on the sidelines !

Chris (-=Spiyda=-)

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"

<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>>>>>>>>snip>>>>>>
>
i think we need to talk about the ink shopping again offlist. My
> understanding is one would need yellow and black. I'm not quite sure
about
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> amounts. Anyway let me know what you think about it.
>
> ST
>

Re: Prepping PCB for printing with MISPRO pigmented ink

2006-04-21 by lcdpublishing

Hi MYC,

I have not yet looked at a 220 printer from Epson so I have no idea
what it looks like. How wide can it print?

The reason I ask is that I have one of those Fargo Signature series
CD printers. It is design ONLY to work with CDs, and thus can only
print on an area as wide as the CD itself. The length of printing I
am pretty sure could be modified, but not the wide.

Either way, the printer is worthless as I can't get updated drivers
for it to work on the newer operating systems :-(

Chris



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Mycroft2152 <mycroft2152@...>
wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> "Techno-Bqbble" is only useful after passing through a
> Pragmatic filter. Usually there is nothing left.
>
> Seriously, for direct to pcb printing to be practical,
> it must use commonly availible components. Of course
> there will be the the few that will go to extremes.
>
> The MIS ink results have not yet been duplicated.
> Anyone?
>
> More postings have been concerned with converting
> printers for flat bed printing and cleaning
> printheads. This is re-inventing the wheel, CD
> printers are now commonplace.
>
> Based on the discussion to date, the simplest method
> is to use an EPSON R220 CD printer with MIS ink,
> filled replacement cartridges.
>
> Once the MIS Ink use is validated, then ~$50 will buy
> the ink and cartidges.
>
> Myc
>
> Side posting alert!
>
> L
> e
> n
>
> d
> r
> o
> p
> y
>
> t
> h
> e
>
> l
> i
> n
> k
> s
>
> a
> b
> o
> u
> t
>
> t
> o
> p
>
> p
> o
> s
> t
> i
> n
> g
> !
>
> :
> )
>
>
>
>
> --- lcdpublishing <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
>
> > Hi Len,
> >
> > That was one of the best "Techno-Babble" posts on
> > this subject yet!
> > It would appear as though you have a really good
> > understanding of
> > the chemistry involved in this process that we are
> > trying to achieve.
> >
> > Based on your experience, what exactly do you think
> > we should be
> > doing? So far, the MIS inks seem to be "on top" as
> > being capable of
> > resisting the etching as well as being able to be
> > used in the
> > commonly available printers.
> >
> > As for board prep, from first hand experience, I
> > know that not all
> > PCB copper is the same. I had some where toner
> > transfer works
> > perfectly everytime, yet others where I can't get
> > toner to stick to
> > it unless I pre-etch it.
> >
> > As most of us here are not chemists, nor do we play
> > one on TV, all
> > we can do is experiment and try different things.
> >
> > As for the requirements of board prep and solvents
> > in inks (being
> > water or otherwise) etc. I came to my "hunches"
> > above based on
> > something similar in experience. We have all used
> > Sharpie brand
> > markers as a resist. I have used it on every type
> > of PCB material I
> > have purchased.
> >
> > Oddly enough, I have never had to do ANY board prep
> > work to get that
> > ink to adhere and work good. I don't believe it is
> > water based (or
> > uses water as a solvent) and being that black is the
> > standard color,
> > it also makes pretty good sense that black ink
> > should also work in
> > ink jet printing. Now if we could extract the
> > Sharpie ink out of the
> > pen, AND get it to pass through an ink jet printer,
> > we would have
> > our solution that works very reliably. My hope is
> > that the MIS inks
> > are similar enough in "chemsitry" that they will
> > perform in an ink
> > jet printer as well as the sharpie pens :-)
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Len Warner
> > <yahoo@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Wed, 19 Apr 2006 19:48, lcdpublishing wrote:
> > > ><snip Tarn-X>
> > > >I have a hunch there are two key elements to this
> > whole ink-jet
> > > >printing thing..
> > > >
> > > >1) The proper type of ink - solvent based as
> > opposed to water
> > based
> > >
> > > But water _is_ a solvent, and a darned good one at
> > that :-)
> > >
> > > However, it's a highly polar solvent, in contrast
> > to the non-polar
> > > hydrocarbons and the non- or slightly-polar other
> > organics.
> > >
> > > >and pigmented as opposed to dyes.
> > >
> > > But pigments aren't dissolved (it's what
> > distinguishes them from
> > dyes.)
> > >
> > > So both your criteria are rather confusing.
> > >
> > > >2) Curing that ink so that it doesn't wash away.
> > >
> > > Agreed, but you are relying on the binder in the
> > mix: the "solvent"
> > > is actually a carrier liquid, the pigment is the
> > colour (which may
> > > be irrelevant to the resist properties) and the
> > binder is the glue
> > > residue which holds the pigment particles onto the
> > surface -
> > > or the pigment would be as durable as a dry-wipe
> > marker
> > > on a smooth surface.
> > >
> > > Because these inks are designed for a high-gloss
> > finish, there
> > > is a higher amount of binder as a lacquer to glaze
> > the surface,
> > > otherwise the printing appears dull against a
> > gloss paper.
> > > That's probably why we are having some success
> > with this
> > > family of inks as etch resist.
> > >
> > > It may also explain why yellow is best - it is a
> > very transparent
> > > colour which may contain little or no pigment,
> > whereas black
> > > requires much. It's even possible that a heavy
> > pigment load
> > > weakens or perforates the binder layer.
> > >
> > > Another approach would be to reinforce the ink:
> > copperplate
> > > print etchers of old used to draw with a grease
> > pencil then
> > > dust the image with "dragon's blood" (a resin
> > powder) and
> > > fuse, repeating as necessary to produce a nitric
> > acid resist.
> > > I wouldn't want to exercise that amount of skill
> > but it might
> > > be made to work, perhaps even with toner powder.
> > The old
> > > Kodak Diconix ink was very oily/sticky but the
> > technology
> > > is likely too old to resurrect.
> > >
> > > A method AFAIK untried would be to coat the board
> > with a raw
> > > resist coating such as gelatin, albumen, gum
> > arabic or PVA
> > > and then jet-print with a tanning agent. Potassium
> > dichromate
> > > followed by UV harden, alkaline develop and bake
> > would
> > > probably work but I don't like to think what it
> > might do to the
> > > print head. Tannic acid might work. Boiled
> > oak-galls might.
> > > Eye of newt, etc. - wish we had a good chemist on
> > the list. :-)
> > > It might be worth asking on sci.chem
> > >
> > > >The little bit of playing around I did with the
> > durabrite ink
> > > >with "Bone stock" PCB material showed me that it
> > not only adheres,
> > > >but it doesn't bead up or puddle like the other
> > inks.
> > >
> > > Beading and puddling is a surface energy
> > phenomenon, an effect
> > > mediated by the "wettability" of the surface by
> > the liquid and
> > > the surface tension of the liquid, both being the
> > manifestation
> > > of intermolecular attractions.
> > >
> > > So both surface preparation and liquid composition
> > play a part.
> > >
> > > In respect of an aqueous liquid, the wettability
> > of copper is
> > > decreased by oily contamination of the surface and
> > > increased by the presence of somewhat polar
> > organics
> > > such as alcohols or detergents as surfactants.
> > >
> > > A "clean" copper surface is probably oxidized or
> > carries
> > > some other copper compound as a chemical tarnish
> > derived
> > > from its last bath - the wettability of this will
> > be influenced
> > > by chemical reactions as well as surface affinity.
> > >
> > > So weak organic acids such as citric or acetic
> > will probably
> > > increase wettability in many situations and
> > ammonia water,
> > > which is alkaline and complexes copper, in others.
> > > Acetic acid and ammonia seem to have solvent
> > activity too.
> > >
> > > Another possibility is a mild reducing agent
> > >
> > > (It's subtle influences like this, combined with
> > pre-treatment
> > > of the surface, that makes litho printing
> > possible.)
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Prepping PCB for printing with MISPRO pigmented ink

2006-04-21 by Mycroft2152

That's a good idea -- stamp pad ink. If you haven't
been in a craft store lately, you will be astounded by
the stamping supplies. Not your old office stamp pads
either.

Worth a try...

Myc


--- Chris Horne <chris@...> wrote:

> Years ago I did once try printing pad ink in an
> epson stylus color,
> and it printed ok..
> (you can tell how long ago as the printer was new at
> the time!)
>
> I guess the nozzles on those were larger so it may
> not directly relate
> to the newer printers.
>
> The ink I was using was a permanent ink specifically
> formulated for
> printing with rubber printing pads onto paper, I
> only tried it on
> paper but the results were reasonable.
>
> The pad ink is a slow drying ink so there may be
> some mileage in it
>
> That particular project ended up on the shelf and
> was totally
> unrelated to pcbs.. but it might be worth
> experimenting, at least to
> see how the ink coats pcbs and resists water.
>
> it is a pity the printers with the heads built into
> the cartridges are
> not suitable.. it takes a brave person to put ink
> into a printer that
> can be completely destroyed by a bad choice :-(
>
> Still watching on the sidelines !
>
> Chris (-=Spiyda=-)
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan
> Trethan"
>
> <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>snip>>>>>>
> >
> i think we need to talk about the ink shopping
> again offlist. My
> > understanding is one would need yellow and black.
> I'm not quite sure
> about
> > amounts. Anyway let me know what you think about
> it.
> >
> > ST
> >
>
>
>
>
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Prepping PCB for printing with MISPRO pigmented ink

2006-04-21 by Mycroft2152

The R220 is a standard 8.5" injet printer with a CD
trqy on the bottom. My wife got one bundled with a
camera at christmas. Not very expensive.

Myc


--- lcdpublishing <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:

> Hi MYC,
>
> I have not yet looked at a 220 printer from Epson so
> I have no idea
> what it looks like. How wide can it print?
>
> The reason I ask is that I have one of those Fargo
> Signature series
> CD printers. It is design ONLY to work with CDs,
> and thus can only
> print on an area as wide as the CD itself. The
> length of printing I
> am pretty sure could be modified, but not the wide.
>
>
> Either way, the printer is worthless as I can't get
> updated drivers
> for it to work on the newer operating systems :-(
>
> Chris
>
>
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Mycroft2152
> <mycroft2152@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > "Techno-Bqbble" is only useful after passing
> through a
> > Pragmatic filter. Usually there is nothing left.
> >
> > Seriously, for direct to pcb printing to be
> practical,
> > it must use commonly availible components. Of
> course
> > there will be the the few that will go to
> extremes.
> >
> > The MIS ink results have not yet been duplicated.
> > Anyone?
> >
> > More postings have been concerned with converting
> > printers for flat bed printing and cleaning
> > printheads. This is re-inventing the wheel, CD
> > printers are now commonplace.
> >
> > Based on the discussion to date, the simplest
> method
> > is to use an EPSON R220 CD printer with MIS ink,
> > filled replacement cartridges.
> >
> > Once the MIS Ink use is validated, then ~$50 will
> buy
> > the ink and cartidges.
> >
> > Myc
> >
> > Side posting alert!
> >
> > L
> > e
> > n
> >
> > d
> > r
> > o
> > p
> > y
> >
> > t
> > h
> > e
> >
> > l
> > i
> > n
> > k
> > s
> >
> > a
> > b
> > o
> > u
> > t
> >
> > t
> > o
> > p
> >
> > p
> > o
> > s
> > t
> > i
> > n
> > g
> > !
> >
> > :
> > )
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- lcdpublishing <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Len,
> > >
> > > That was one of the best "Techno-Babble" posts
> on
> > > this subject yet!
> > > It would appear as though you have a really good
> > > understanding of
> > > the chemistry involved in this process that we
> are
> > > trying to achieve.
> > >
> > > Based on your experience, what exactly do you
> think
> > > we should be
> > > doing? So far, the MIS inks seem to be "on top"
> as
> > > being capable of
> > > resisting the etching as well as being able to
> be
> > > used in the
> > > commonly available printers.
> > >
> > > As for board prep, from first hand experience, I
> > > know that not all
> > > PCB copper is the same. I had some where toner
> > > transfer works
> > > perfectly everytime, yet others where I can't
> get
> > > toner to stick to
> > > it unless I pre-etch it.
> > >
> > > As most of us here are not chemists, nor do we
> play
> > > one on TV, all
> > > we can do is experiment and try different
> things.
> > >
> > > As for the requirements of board prep and
> solvents
> > > in inks (being
> > > water or otherwise) etc. I came to my "hunches"
> > > above based on
> > > something similar in experience. We have all
> used
> > > Sharpie brand
> > > markers as a resist. I have used it on every
> type
> > > of PCB material I
> > > have purchased.
> > >
> > > Oddly enough, I have never had to do ANY board
> prep
> > > work to get that
> > > ink to adhere and work good. I don't believe it
> is
> > > water based (or
> > > uses water as a solvent) and being that black is
> the
> > > standard color,
> > > it also makes pretty good sense that black ink
> > > should also work in
> > > ink jet printing. Now if we could extract the
> > > Sharpie ink out of the
> > > pen, AND get it to pass through an ink jet
> printer,
> > > we would have
> > > our solution that works very reliably. My hope
> is
> > > that the MIS inks
> > > are similar enough in "chemsitry" that they will
> > > perform in an ink
> > > jet printer as well as the sharpie pens :-)
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Len Warner
> > > <yahoo@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Wed, 19 Apr 2006 19:48, lcdpublishing wrote:
> > > > ><snip Tarn-X>
> > > > >I have a hunch there are two key elements to
> this
> > > whole ink-jet
> > > > >printing thing..
> > > > >
> > > > >1) The proper type of ink - solvent based as
> > > opposed to water
> > > based
> > > >
> > > > But water _is_ a solvent, and a darned good
> one at
> > > that :-)
>
=== message truncated ===


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

Trim! Re: Prepping PCB for printing with MISPRO pigmented ink

2006-04-21 by Steve

C'mon guys, trim! I know you can work that mouse! Have pity on those
on digest or dial-up, especially those who have to pay for even local
phone service by the minute.

And eventually we're going to start losing the beginnings of the
archives as the list overflows. I have no idea when that happens,
Yahoo doesn't say, but I have seen lists that start in high numbers.

Steve Greenfield
listowner

Re: Prepping PCB for printing with MISPRO pigmented ink

2006-04-21 by lcdpublishing

Very cool! I will have to look into that.

Chris




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Mycroft2152 <mycroft2152@...>
wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> The R220 is a standard 8.5" injet printer with a CD
> trqy on the bottom. My wife got one bundled with a
> camera at christmas. Not very expensive.
>
> Myc
>
>
> --- lcdpublishing <lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
>
> > Hi MYC,
> >
> > I have not yet looked at a 220 printer from Epson so
> > I have no idea
> > what it looks like. How wide can it print?
> >
> > The reason I ask is that I have one of those Fargo
> > Signature series
> > CD printers. It is design ONLY to work with CDs,
> > and thus can only
> > print on an area as wide as the CD itself. The
> > length of printing I
> > am pretty sure could be modified, but not the wide.
> >
> >
> > Either way, the printer is worthless as I can't get
> > updated drivers
> > for it to work on the newer operating systems :-(
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Mycroft2152
> > <mycroft2152@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > "Techno-Bqbble" is only useful after passing
> > through a
> > > Pragmatic filter. Usually there is nothing left.
> > >
> > > Seriously, for direct to pcb printing to be
> > practical,
> > > it must use commonly availible components. Of
> > course
> > > there will be the the few that will go to
> > extremes.
> > >
> > > The MIS ink results have not yet been duplicated.
> > > Anyone?
> > >
> > > More postings have been concerned with converting
> > > printers for flat bed printing and cleaning
> > > printheads. This is re-inventing the wheel, CD
> > > printers are now commonplace.
> > >
> > > Based on the discussion to date, the simplest
> > method
> > > is to use an EPSON R220 CD printer with MIS ink,
> > > filled replacement cartridges.
> > >
> > > Once the MIS Ink use is validated, then ~$50 will
> > buy
> > > the ink and cartidges.
> > >
> > > Myc
> > >
> > > Side posting alert!
> > >
> > > L
> > > e
> > > n
> > >
> > > d
> > > r
> > > o
> > > p
> > > y
> > >
> > > t
> > > h
> > > e
> > >
> > > l
> > > i
> > > n
> > > k
> > > s
> > >
> > > a
> > > b
> > > o
> > > u
> > > t
> > >
> > > t
> > > o
> > > p
> > >
> > > p
> > > o
> > > s
> > > t
> > > i
> > > n
> > > g
> > > !
> > >
> > > :
> > > )
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- lcdpublishing <lcdpublishing@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Len,
> > > >
> > > > That was one of the best "Techno-Babble" posts
> > on
> > > > this subject yet!
> > > > It would appear as though you have a really good
> > > > understanding of
> > > > the chemistry involved in this process that we
> > are
> > > > trying to achieve.
> > > >
> > > > Based on your experience, what exactly do you
> > think
> > > > we should be
> > > > doing? So far, the MIS inks seem to be "on top"
> > as
> > > > being capable of
> > > > resisting the etching as well as being able to
> > be
> > > > used in the
> > > > commonly available printers.
> > > >
> > > > As for board prep, from first hand experience, I
> > > > know that not all
> > > > PCB copper is the same. I had some where toner
> > > > transfer works
> > > > perfectly everytime, yet others where I can't
> > get
> > > > toner to stick to
> > > > it unless I pre-etch it.
> > > >
> > > > As most of us here are not chemists, nor do we
> > play
> > > > one on TV, all
> > > > we can do is experiment and try different
> > things.
> > > >
> > > > As for the requirements of board prep and
> > solvents
> > > > in inks (being
> > > > water or otherwise) etc. I came to my "hunches"
> > > > above based on
> > > > something similar in experience. We have all
> > used
> > > > Sharpie brand
> > > > markers as a resist. I have used it on every
> > type
> > > > of PCB material I
> > > > have purchased.
> > > >
> > > > Oddly enough, I have never had to do ANY board
> > prep
> > > > work to get that
> > > > ink to adhere and work good. I don't believe it
> > is
> > > > water based (or
> > > > uses water as a solvent) and being that black is
> > the
> > > > standard color,
> > > > it also makes pretty good sense that black ink
> > > > should also work in
> > > > ink jet printing. Now if we could extract the
> > > > Sharpie ink out of the
> > > > pen, AND get it to pass through an ink jet
> > printer,
> > > > we would have
> > > > our solution that works very reliably. My hope
> > is
> > > > that the MIS inks
> > > > are similar enough in "chemsitry" that they will
> > > > perform in an ink
> > > > jet printer as well as the sharpie pens :-)
> > > >
> > > > Chris
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Len Warner
> > > > <yahoo@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Wed, 19 Apr 2006 19:48, lcdpublishing wrote:
> > > > > ><snip Tarn-X>
> > > > > >I have a hunch there are two key elements to
> > this
> > > > whole ink-jet
> > > > > >printing thing..
> > > > > >
> > > > > >1) The proper type of ink - solvent based as
> > > > opposed to water
> > > > based
> > > > >
> > > > > But water _is_ a solvent, and a darned good
> > one at
> > > > that :-)
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Where's Tarn-X? Was-Re: Prepping PCB for printing with MISPRO pigmented ink

2006-04-22 by lists

In article <e26ijm+28bb@...>,
kilocycles <kilocycles@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Steve,
> I stumbled upon Tarn-X at the local Home Depot last week, and of
> course I bought some. It was only $4.95, if I recall correctly, for
> about a half-pint (if I recall correctly).

There is a product available in the UK, by Goddards, called Silver dip or
possibly "Hotel Silver dip" which sounds very similar but I believe it
contains a polish.

When we used to use this for cleaning Klystron cavities we used to use IPA
afterwards to remove the polish.

Later we got some made without the polish but I can't remember now who
made it.

Tarn-X MSDS found -Was-Re: Prepping PCB for printing with MISPRO pigmented ink

2006-04-24 by kilocycles

Len,
Sorry, I misstated that. The site I visited the other day (Google
search on Tarn-X) simply stated that were "none reported" for
carcinogens on the MSDS. I did not actually read the MSDS at that
time, but I found today where it is available: download at <
http://www.jelmar.com/msds.asp >. Jelmar is the registered company on
the MSDS.You have to provide some information, which I did not care to do.

I did find the MSDS for the Tarn-X product I bought at the following
web address, provided through Cornell University: <
http://msds.ehs.cornell.edu/msds/siri/files/bzd/bzdgd.html >. (I got
there by Googling "MSDS").

The Tarn-X I bought is labeled "Tarn-X" and subtitled "Tarnish
Remover". The MSDS link is for Tarn-X Wipe & Rinse, which is also a
subtitle on the 12 oz. bottle I bought. The label does have a
precaution on the front label: "Caution: Irritant. Harmful if
swallowed. See back lael for other precautions". The back label has
a direction to WEAR HOUSEHOLD GLOVES (their caps, not mine; I presume
they mean rubber gloves). The back label also says "Caution: Contains
thiourea, sulphuric acid, corrosion inhibitors and detergent. AVOID
CONTACT WITH SKIN AND EYES."

It goes on to say if swallowed, do not induce vomiting, and to keep
out of the reach of children. Here's what we're looking for in terms
of carcinogens:

"WARNING: This product contains thiourea, a chemical known in the
state of California to cause cancer."

Here is the relevant info from the MSDS on carcinogens:

Health Hazards Data
=======================================================
Route Of Entry Inds - Inhalation: NO
Skin: NO
Ingestion: NO
Carcinogenicity Inds - NTP: YES
IARC: YES
OSHA: NO
Effects of Exposure: EYES: CAN CAUSE SLIGHT TO MODERATE IRRITATION.
Explanation Of Carcinogenicity: SEE INGREDIENTS.
Signs And Symptions Of Overexposure: EYES: CAN CAUSE SLIGHT TO MODERATE
IRRITATION.
Medical Cond Aggravated By Exposure: NONE
First Aid: INHALATION: REMOVE TO FRESH AIR. EYES: FLUSH W/WATER.
INGESTION:
GIVE LUKE WARM WATER (PINT), DON'T INDUCE VOMITING. OBTAIN MEDICAL
ATTENTION
IN ALL CASES.

From the Ingredients section of the MSDS:

Cas: 62-56-6
RTECS #: YU2800000
Name: THIOUREA (SUSP ANIMAL CARC BY IARC GROUP 2B; SUSPECTED
CARCINOGEN BY NTP)
*96-1*
% Wt: 6-7
EPA Rpt Qty: 10 LBS
DOT Rpt Qty: 10 LBS

I will be more precise in the future to prevent misleading statements.

Regards,
Ted

Show quoted textHide quoted text
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Len Warner <yahoo@...> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 20 Apr 2006 at 00:07, kilocycles mumbled:
>
> >Hmmm, the posted MSDS
>
> Posted where? There's no Tarn-X MSDS or link to it
> that I can find in a search of messages since Jan 26th.
>
> >for Tarn-X
>
> Which Tarn-X? Tarn-X is a brand, not a product.
---snip---
> Last time I Googled it to find out what you guys were talking about
> I came up with _three_ products with three different formulations.
---snip---
> I wish you would be more precise. Identify the product then go to the
> specific MSDS. Chemistry doesn't seem to be our forte. :-(
>
>
> Regards, LenW
---snip---

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Tarn-X MSDS found -Was-Re: Prepping PCB for printing with MISPRO pigmented ink

2006-04-24 by Stefan Trethan

Oh well, i don't live in California, it won't cause cancer here then ;-)


I really don't think tarn-x is absolutely necessary to make inkjet prints,
i can live without it.


Thanks for doing the research, i was curious if that other page was
correct or not.

ST

On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 21:28:07 +0200, kilocycles <kilocycles@...>
wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
> "WARNING: This product contains thiourea, a chemical known in the
>
> state of California to cause cancer."

Tarn-X MSDS found -Was-Re: Prepping PCB for printing with MISPRO pigmented ink

2006-04-24 by lcdpublishing

Worry not Stefan! I believe every man made substance is known to
cause cancer in California!




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> Oh well, i don't live in California, it won't cause cancer here
then ;-)
>
>
> I really don't think tarn-x is absolutely necessary to make inkjet
prints,
> i can live without it.
>
>
> Thanks for doing the research, i was curious if that other page
was
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> correct or not.
>
> ST
>
> On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 21:28:07 +0200, kilocycles <kilocycles@...>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > "WARNING: This product contains thiourea, a chemical known in the
> >
> > state of California to cause cancer."
>

Tarn-X MSDS found -Was-Re: Prepping PCB for printing with MISPRO pigmented ink

2006-04-25 by kilocycles

And I bet those lab rats weren't wearing "household gloves".

Ted

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "lcdpublishing"
<lcdpublishing@...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Worry not Stefan! I believe every man made substance is known to
> cause cancer in California!

> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
> <stefan_trethan@> wrote:
> > Oh well, i don't live in California, it won't cause cancer here
> then ;-)

> > I really don't think tarn-x is absolutely necessary to make inkjet
> prints,
> > i can live without it.

> > Thanks for doing the research, i was curious if that other page
> was
> > correct or not.
> >
> > ST
> >
> > On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 21:28:07 +0200, kilocycles <kilocycles@>
> > wrote:

> > > "WARNING: This product contains thiourea, a chemical known in the

> > > state of California to cause cancer."