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Laser Printer Toner transfer with plain regular paper

Laser Printer Toner transfer with plain regular paper

2003-02-21 by rolanyang <rolan@hacksrus.com>

I've seen some posts here about people doing
the Laser Printer heat toner-transfer to PCB with
the special sugar coated paper, but I've been
doing it for quite a while with just plain
regular paper.

The only difference is that the paper doesn't
float right off the PCB in water. You have to
soak the board in water, let the paper soften
then gently rub it off.

In our experience, the traces stick to the PCB better
with this method in comparison to using the special paper.

I've done many boards reliably with 10 mil traces.

A few weeks ago, I posted a msg to another group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/argnj/message/447

There are also pics of an example board at
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/argnj/lst

under the "Laser Toner PCB Etching" folder.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Laser Printer Toner transfer with plain regular paper

2003-02-21 by Ned Konz

On Thursday 20 February 2003 11:17 pm, rolanyang <rolan@...>
wrote:
> I've seen some posts here about people doing
> the Laser Printer heat toner-transfer to PCB with
> the special sugar coated paper, but I've been
> doing it for quite a while with just plain
> regular paper.
>
> The only difference is that the paper doesn't
> float right off the PCB in water. You have to
> soak the board in water, let the paper soften
> then gently rub it off.
>
> In our experience, the traces stick to the PCB better
> with this method in comparison to using the special paper.
>
> I've done many boards reliably with 10 mil traces.

What do you mean by "plain paper"? Does the paper have a name? There
are a wide variety of coatings and clay content on different papers.

--
Ned Konz
http://bike-nomad.com
GPG key ID: BEEA7EFE

Re: Laser Printer Toner transfer with plain regular paper

2003-02-22 by rolanyang <rolan@hacksrus.com>

I'm not sure. It's really cheap paper that was lying around.
I've done it with all sorts of paper and it seems to work.
The cheaper "low weight" paper dissolves in water more
easily. I will see if I can find a the brand and model number
of the most recent paper used.

>
> What do you mean by "plain paper"? Does the paper have a name? There
> are a wide variety of coatings and clay content on different papers.
>
> --
> Ned Konz
> http://bike-nomad.com
> GPG key ID: BEEA7EFE

Re: Laser Printer Toner transfer with plain regular paper

2003-02-22 by David Saum

I have found that thin glossy paper soaks
off most easily - something like the paper
use for Time magazine pages. Maybe a
paper expert can tell me what magazines
use?

I went to a paper store and got some
#60 glossy paper and it works pretty well.

Here is a brief description of my procedure
http://www.infiltec.com/SID-GRB@home/pcb-home.htm

Hope this helps,

Dave

Build your own GRB detector
http://www.infiltec.com/SID-GRB@home/
Build your own seismometer
http://www.infiltec.com/seismo/


> Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 14:09:28 -0800
> From: Ned Konz <ned@...>
> Subject: Re: Laser Printer Toner transfer with plain regular paper
>
> Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2003 06:09:15 -0000
> From: "rolanyang <rolan@...>" <rolan@...>
> Subject: Re: Laser Printer Toner transfer with plain regular paper
>
> I'm not sure. It's really cheap paper that was lying around.
> I've done it with all sorts of paper and it seems to work.
> The cheaper "low weight" paper dissolves in water more
> easily. I will see if I can find a the brand and model number
> of the most recent paper used.
>
> >
> > What do you mean by "plain paper"? Does the paper have a name? There
> > are a wide variety of coatings and clay content on different papers.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Laser Printer Toner transfer with plain regular paper

2003-02-22 by Ned Konz

On Saturday 22 February 2003 07:13 am, David Saum wrote:
> I have found that thin glossy paper soaks
> off most easily - something like the paper
> use for Time magazine pages. Maybe a
> paper expert can tell me what magazines
> use?
>
> I went to a paper store and got some
> #60 glossy paper and it works pretty well.
>
> Here is a brief description of my procedure
> http://www.infiltec.com/SID-GRB@home/pcb-home.htm

Thanks.

Some comments and questions about the procedure:

* Don't recommend steel wool. It can leave little bits of steel in the
copper (which become rusty). Use copper wool instead (grocery store
copper scrubbers).

* Interesting tip to use floor wax to prevent corrosion. Does it
affect soldering at all?

* How do you keep the paper on the second side in registration after
you hold it up to the light and before you iron it?

--
Ned Konz
http://bike-nomad.com
GPG key ID: BEEA7EFE

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Laser Printer Toner transfer with plain regular paper

2003-02-22 by Steve Greenfield

I recall long ago in one of the hobby electronic magazines there
was an article that suggested using glossy thin magazine pages.
That is an ultrasmooth clay coated paper, I believe.

I like your websites, BTW. I'm going to add links from the Mad
Scientist list. Don't take that the wrong way, the Mad Scientist
list is about real science.

Steve Greenfield

--- David Saum <dsaum@...> wrote:
> I have found that thin glossy paper soaks
> off most easily - something like the paper
> use for Time magazine pages. Maybe a
> paper expert can tell me what magazines
> use?
>
> I went to a paper store and got some
> #60 glossy paper and it works pretty well.
>
> Here is a brief description of my procedure
> http://www.infiltec.com/SID-GRB@home/pcb-home.htm
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Dave
>
> Build your own GRB detector
> http://www.infiltec.com/SID-GRB@home/
> Build your own seismometer
> http://www.infiltec.com/seismo/


=====
Steve Greenfield // Digital photography, scanning,
Polymorph Digital Photography // retouching, and photomorphing
253/318-2473 voice // to your specs.
polymorph@... //
http://www.polyphoto.com/ // Based in Tacoma, WA, USA

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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Laser Printer Toner transfer with plain regular paper

2003-02-22 by kenneth magers

i have made geat boards with jet printphoto paper
the multi project photo paper 14 bucks at wallmart
good luck
--- "rolanyang <rolan@...>"
<rolan@...> wrote:
> I'm not sure. It's really cheap paper that was lying
> around.
> I've done it with all sorts of paper and it seems to
> work.
> The cheaper "low weight" paper dissolves in water
> more
> easily. I will see if I can find a the brand and
> model number
> of the most recent paper used.
>
> >
> > What do you mean by "plain paper"? Does the paper
> have a name? There
> > are a wide variety of coatings and clay content on
> different papers.
> >
> > --
> > Ned Konz
> > http://bike-nomad.com
> > GPG key ID: BEEA7EFE
>
>


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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Laser Printer Toner transfer with plain regular paper

2003-02-22 by kenneth magers

--- kenneth magers <kenneth_m_73149@...> wrote:
> i have made great boards with jet printphoto paper
> the multi project photo paper 14 bucks at wallmart
> for 60 sheets good luck
> --- "rolanyang <rolan@...>"
> <rolan@...> wrote:
> > I'm not sure. It's really cheap paper that was
> lying
> > around.
> > I've done it with all sorts of paper and it seems
> to
> > work.
> > The cheaper "low weight" paper dissolves in water
> > more
> > easily. I will see if I can find a the brand and
> > model number
> > of the most recent paper used.
> >
> > >
> > > What do you mean by "plain paper"? Does the
> paper
> > have a name? There
> > > are a wide variety of coatings and clay content
> on
> > different papers.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Ned Konz
> > > http://bike-nomad.com
> > > GPG key ID: BEEA7EFE
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/
>


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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Laser Printer Toner transfer with plain regular paper

2003-02-23 by Russell Shaw

David Saum wrote:
> I have found that thin glossy paper soaks
> off most easily - something like the paper
> use for Time magazine pages. Maybe a
> paper expert can tell me what magazines
> use?
>
> I went to a paper store and got some
> #60 glossy paper and it works pretty well.
>
> Here is a brief description of my procedure
> http://www.infiltec.com/SID-GRB@home/pcb-home.htm

Rice paper may dissolve well in water...

Re: Laser Printer Toner transfer with plain regular paper

2003-02-25 by macglobalus <macglobalus@yahoo.com>

Hi, here is the paper expert. I sell computer consumables, ink, paper,
the works. The paper used by magazines like "Time" is called "couche"
and it does come in different weights. It is used extensibly by offset
printers but is not a paper suited for laser or inkjet printes. Its
main caracteristic is low absorbtion of inks, thus, it will not hold
enough laser toner to be transfer to a PCB board. The type used by
"Time" is recycled couche wich is even worse absorbtionwise. In my
opinnion you could try low weight highly compacted bond paper. Higly
compacted means it will not suck the toner deep into its fibers an low
weight insures a high "disolve" rate in water. But, probably, low
weight clay cotted paper should be a better idea; they do not absorb
the toner into its fibers but will retain a lot more toner that couche
and/or higly compacted bond paper. Once in water it might take longer
to dissolve but a lot more toner will be transfer to the board since it
is not being hold by the paper fibers. See you
gabriel lorenzo




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "David Saum" <dsaum@i...> wrote:
> I have found that thin glossy paper soaks
> off most easily - something like the paper
> use for Time magazine pages.....

Re: Laser Printer Toner transfer with plain regular paper

2003-02-25 by caveteursus <j.walton@amlp.com>

Somewhere down here I have some "Corrasable" paper -- I am showing my
age -- this was a paper stock that you used when doing term papers
etc. since the inks wouldn't set until a period of time had passed.
You could just use a pencil eraser to remove mistakes.

Typewriters have apparently gone the way of the dodo, however.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Laser Printer Toner transfer with plain regular paper

2003-02-25 by milwiron@terrorbydesign.com

At 03:09 AM 02/25/2003 -0000, you wrote:
>Highly compacted means it will not suck the toner deep into its fibers an
low
>weight insures a high "disolve" rate in water... Once in water it might
take >longer to dissolve but a lot more toner will be transfer to the board
since it
>is not being hold by the paper fibers. See you
>gabriel lorenzo

Hi Gabriel,
Thank you for the info and the name of the paper.
From personal experience I've found the pages of Jameco Electronics
catalogs work best for laser toner transfer. I've suspected what Gabriel
has said. The coated paper keeps the toner from bonding too tightly to the
paper fibers
Two other things that figure prominently in to the mix-
1. Not all laser copiers or printers will handle the thin paper without
adding a carrier sheet and using carrier sheets adds another set of problems.
2. Not all toners are created equal. Our old HP printer and its' HP toner
cartridges made excellent transfers, the HP cartridges for our newer HP
2100 series printer has a toner that doesn't stick well to copper and is
very brittle.
Our old Xerox copier toner couldn't make good transfers but the Canon
copier we now have does.
Denny

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Laser Printer Toner transfer with plain regular paper

2003-02-25 by Peter Welty

What is a typewriter? I know what dodo is. :)

PJW



j.walton@...
02/25/2003 05:27 AM

To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com@Internet
cc: (bcc: Peter Welty/Americas/NSC)
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Laser Printer Toner transfer with plain regular paper

Somewhere down here I have some "Corrasable" paper -- I am showing my
age -- this was a paper stock that you used when doing term papers
etc. since the inks wouldn't set until a period of time had passed.
You could just use a pencil eraser to remove mistakes.

Typewriters have apparently gone the way of the dodo, however.


Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs

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Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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Re: Laser Printer Toner transfer with plain regular paper

2003-02-26 by macglobalus <macglobalus@yahoo.com>

Basicly we are talking about "glossy paper". Stay away from "photo
quality" and "Glossy Photo Quality" since those have a rather plastic
coating and will take a longer time to dissolve. I'll be runnig a
couple of test next week on an EPSON paper model #S041654 and I'll let
you know how it went.
Gabriel

> Hi Gabriel,
> Thank you for the info and the name of the paper.....

Re: Laser Printer Toner transfer with plain regular paper

2003-03-03 by rolanyang <rolan@hacksrus.com>

I had a chance to play around with some CuCl2 (Cupric Chloride)
etching last Friday and performed a test etch with a small segment of
PCB created using the "cheap paper laser toner-transfer method".
The traces are 10 mil in width.

You can see check out some pics at

http://www.techfreakz.org/~rolan/mypics/cucl2/

The neat thing about using CuCl2 is that the byproduct
of the etching process generates more CuCl2. And because of
this, the etchant solution can be used over and over.

I can't imagine why people are still using Ferric Chloride.

~Rolan

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Laser Printer Toner transfer with plain regular paper

2003-03-04 by Ned Konz

On Monday 03 March 2003 12:06 am, rolanyang <rolan@...>
wrote:
> I had a chance to play around with some CuCl2 (Cupric Chloride)
> etching last Friday and performed a test etch with a small segment
> of PCB created using the "cheap paper laser toner-transfer method".
> The traces are 10 mil in width.
>
> You can see check out some pics at
>
> http://www.techfreakz.org/~rolan/mypics/cucl2/
>
> The neat thing about using CuCl2 is that the byproduct
> of the etching process generates more CuCl2. And because of
> this, the etchant solution can be used over and over.

No, the etching reaction (a reduction reaction) generates CuCl .

Cu + CuCl2 => 2 CuCl

People do regenerate the etchant using oxidizers (like chlorine gas or
hydrogen peroxide).

2 CuCl + H202 + 2 HCl => 2 CuCl2 + 2 H2O

2CuCl + Cl2 => 2 CuCl2

--
Ned Konz
http://bike-nomad.com
GPG key ID: BEEA7EFE

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Laser Printer Toner transfer with plain regular paper

2003-03-06 by Adam Seychell

Ned Konz wrote:
> On Monday 03 March 2003 12:06 am, rolanyang <rolan@...>
> wrote:
>
>>I had a chance to play around with some CuCl2 (Cupric Chloride)
>>etching last Friday and performed a test etch with a small segment
>>of PCB created using the "cheap paper laser toner-transfer method".
>>The traces are 10 mil in width.
>>
>>You can see check out some pics at
>>
>>http://www.techfreakz.org/~rolan/mypics/cucl2/
>>
>>The neat thing about using CuCl2 is that the byproduct
>>of the etching process generates more CuCl2. And because of
>>this, the etchant solution can be used over and over.
>
>
> No, the etching reaction (a reduction reaction) generates CuCl .
>
> Cu + CuCl2 => 2 CuCl
>
> People do regenerate the etchant using oxidizers (like chlorine gas or
> hydrogen peroxide).
>
> 2 CuCl + H202 + 2 HCl => 2 CuCl2 + 2 H2O
>
> 2CuCl + Cl2 => 2 CuCl2
>

Ordinary old air can regenerate the solution too. The cuprous
chloride complex is quickly oxidized to the cupric state (Cu++)
with dissolved oxygen. Air is widely available and doesn't cost
anything. I don't know why more hobbyists are using this etchant.

Re: Laser Printer Toner transfer with plain regular paper

2003-03-06 by rolanyang

Yea, from what I read, you just let the let the pump bubble/aerate
the solution for a while, and then it changes back to the
green color.... and it seems to work :)

If this were to become popular, it would put those Ferric Chloride
distributors out of business.

Someone on the list mentioned earlier that they were hospitalized
for copper poisoning. I am slightly concerned about the toxicity
of the stuff. From the MSDS, it doesn't sound very toxic, but
the fact that the guy was sick enough to be put in the hospital
concerns me..

~Rolan

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Adam Seychell <adam_seychell@y...> wrote:
>
>
> Ned Konz wrote:
> > On Monday 03 March 2003 12:06 am, rolanyang <rolan@h...>
> > wrote:
>
> >>The neat thing about using CuCl2 is that the byproduct
> >>of the etching process generates more CuCl2. And because of
> >>this, the etchant solution can be used over and over.
> >
> >
> > No, the etching reaction (a reduction reaction) generates CuCl .
> >
> > Cu + CuCl2 => 2 CuCl
> >
> > People do regenerate the etchant using oxidizers (like chlorine gas or
> > hydrogen peroxide).
> >
> > 2 CuCl + H202 + 2 HCl => 2 CuCl2 + 2 H2O
> >
> > 2CuCl + Cl2 => 2 CuCl2
> >
>
> Ordinary old air can regenerate the solution too. The cuprous
> chloride complex is quickly oxidized to the cupric state (Cu++)
> with dissolved oxygen. Air is widely available and doesn't cost
> anything. I don't know why more hobbyists are using this etchant.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Laser Printer Toner transfer with plain regular paper

2003-03-06 by Adam Seychell

rolanyang wrote:
> Yea, from what I read, you just let the let the pump bubble/aerate
> the solution for a while, and then it changes back to the
> green color.... and it seems to work :)
>
> If this were to become popular, it would put those Ferric Chloride
> distributors out of business.
>
> Someone on the list mentioned earlier that they were hospitalized
> for copper poisoning. I am slightly concerned about the toxicity
> of the stuff. From the MSDS, it doesn't sound very toxic, but
> the fact that the guy was sick enough to be put in the hospital
> concerns me..
>
> ~Rolan


What he didn't mention was *HOW* he became intoxicated. I mean
was he drunk one day and his friends dared him to drink some
cupric chloride solution, or did he get a spec under his
fingernail and later got poisoned when he bit his fingernail.
Yes, I agree there is reason to be concerned, but no more so than
any copper compound which includes *ALL* copper etchants use for
PCB making. For a good understanding on the biochemical aspects
of copper see;

http://www.inchem.org/documents/jecfa/jecmono/v48aje06.htm

Fatal oral human dose is 200mg/kg bodyweight.

that translates to a 70kg person eating about 2 TABLESPOONS
(55grams) of copper sulfate.

Dietary copper intake is 0.05mg/kg bodyweight.

Cupric Chloride and Stainless Steel

2003-03-06 by milwiron@terrorbydesign.com

Hey All,
Does anybody know the effects of the cupric chloride etchant solution on
stainless steel? I have a few stainless screws in my etching tank that
ammonium persulfate doesn't touch but I know ferric chloride will slowly eat.
Thanks,
Denny

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Laser Printer Toner transfer with plain regular paper

2003-03-06 by kenneth magers

i must tell you i was not poisend from cupric chloride
i was working at a place that made pc boards for the
goverment and had to clean larg copper electrodes
bur even with a resperator and all safty equipment
still got enough through my skin to get realy sick
i still am interested in the cuperic chloride use
but i would probley do it in a vented hood and use
gloves sorry if i mislead anyone but copper poisening
is very bad there was only one docter that knew
exactly how to treat it at the time.
--- Adam Seychell
<adam_seychell@...> wrote:
>
>
> rolanyang wrote:
> > Yea, from what I read, you just let the let the
> pump bubble/aerate
> > the solution for a while, and then it changes back
> to the
> > green color.... and it seems to work :)
> >
> > If this were to become popular, it would put those
> Ferric Chloride
> > distributors out of business.
> >
> > Someone on the list mentioned earlier that they
> were hospitalized
> > for copper poisoning. I am slightly concerned
> about the toxicity
> > of the stuff. From the MSDS, it doesn't sound very
> toxic, but
> > the fact that the guy was sick enough to be put in
> the hospital
> > concerns me..
> >
> > ~Rolan
>
>
> What he didn't mention was *HOW* he became
> intoxicated. I mean
> was he drunk one day and his friends dared him to
> drink some
> cupric chloride solution, or did he get a spec under
> his
> fingernail and later got poisoned when he bit his
> fingernail.
> Yes, I agree there is reason to be concerned, but no
> more so than
> any copper compound which includes *ALL* copper
> etchants use for
> PCB making. For a good understanding on the
> biochemical aspects
> of copper see;
>
>
http://www.inchem.org/documents/jecfa/jecmono/v48aje06.htm
>
> Fatal oral human dose is 200mg/kg bodyweight.
>
> that translates to a 70kg person eating about 2
> TABLESPOONS
> (55grams) of copper sulfate.
>
> Dietary copper intake is 0.05mg/kg bodyweight.
>
>
>
>
>


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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Cupric Chloride and Stainless Steel

2003-03-07 by Adam Seychell

Yes it will, but probably not fast as Ferric Chloride. I once had
a stainless teaspoon sitting in a beaker containing cupric
chloride etching and it etched a good part of it away over a few
days. When its long term you need good chemical resistant
materials. Are you close by to any titanium screw suppliers? :)

You could try coating the screw and its surrounding with a
solvent based contact adhesive.

milwiron@... wrote:
> Hey All,
> Does anybody know the effects of the cupric chloride etchant solution on
> stainless steel? I have a few stainless screws in my etching tank that
> ammonium persulfate doesn't touch but I know ferric chloride will slowly eat.
> Thanks,
> Denny
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Cupric Chloride and Stainless Steel

2003-03-07 by milwiron@terrorbydesign.com

Hi Adam,
Thank you for the feedback. Thankfully the screws are common sizes, I
probably replace them with Delrin or nylon versions.
Denny

At 02:07 PM 03/07/2003 +1100, you wrote:
>Yes it will, but probably not fast as Ferric Chloride. I once had
>a stainless teaspoon sitting in a beaker containing cupric
>chloride etching and it etched a good part of it away over a few
>days. When its long term you need good chemical resistant
>materials. Are you close by to any titanium screw suppliers? :)
>
>You could try coating the screw and its surrounding with a
>solvent based contact adhesive.
>
>milwiron@... wrote:
>> Hey All,
>> Does anybody know the effects of the cupric chloride etchant solution on
>> stainless steel? I have a few stainless screws in my etching tank that
>> ammonium persulfate doesn't touch but I know ferric chloride will slowly
eat.
>> Thanks,
>> Denny
>>
>>
>> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>>
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>
>>
>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Cupric Chloride and Stainless Steel

2003-03-07 by Ned Konz

On Friday 07 March 2003 05:44 am, milwiron@... wrote:
> Hi Adam,
> Thank you for the feedback. Thankfully the screws are common sizes,
> I probably replace them with Delrin or nylon versions.

Beware that nylon is attacked by HCl. I've had nylon zip ties fall
apart when used in a FeCl etch tank.

> At 02:07 PM 03/07/2003 +1100, you wrote:
> >Yes it will, but probably not fast as Ferric Chloride. I once had
> >a stainless teaspoon sitting in a beaker containing cupric
> >chloride etching and it etched a good part of it away over a few
> >days. When its long term you need good chemical resistant
> >materials. Are you close by to any titanium screw suppliers? :)
> >
> >You could try coating the screw and its surrounding with a
> >solvent based contact adhesive.
> >
> >milwiron@... wrote:
> >> Hey All,
> >> Does anybody know the effects of the cupric chloride etchant
> >> solution on stainless steel? I have a few stainless screws in
> >> my etching tank that ammonium persulfate doesn't touch but I
> >> know ferric chloride will slowly
>
> eat.
>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Denny
> >>
> >>
> >> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and
> >> files: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> >>
> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
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--
Ned Konz
http://bike-nomad.com
GPG key ID: BEEA7EFE

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Cupric Chloride and Stainless Steel

2003-03-07 by adam Seychell

Very good point. Nylon doesn't like strong acids. It tends to crumble apart
after some time, in week or so.

Ned Konz wrote:
> On Friday 07 March 2003 05:44 am, milwiron@... wrote:
>
>>Hi Adam,
>>Thank you for the feedback. Thankfully the screws are common sizes,
>>I probably replace them with Delrin or nylon versions.
>
>
> Beware that nylon is attacked by HCl. I've had nylon zip ties fall
> apart when used in a FeCl etch tank.
>
>
>>At 02:07 PM 03/07/2003 +1100, you wrote:
>>
>>>Yes it will, but probably not fast as Ferric Chloride. I once had
>>>a stainless teaspoon sitting in a beaker containing cupric
>>>chloride etching and it etched a good part of it away over a few
>>>days. When its long term you need good chemical resistant
>>>materials. Are you close by to any titanium screw suppliers? :)
>>>
>>>You could try coating the screw and its surrounding with a
>>>solvent based contact adhesive.
>>>
>>>milwiron@... wrote:
>>>
>>>>Hey All,
>>>>Does anybody know the effects of the cupric chloride etchant
>>>>solution on stainless steel? I have a few stainless screws in
>>>>my etching tank that ammonium persulfate doesn't touch but I
>>>>know ferric chloride will slowly
>>>
>>eat.
>>
>>
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>Denny
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and
>>>>files: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>>>>
>>>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>>>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>>>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>
>>>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and
>>>files: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>>>
>>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and
>>files: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>>
>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>
>>
>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Cupric Choride etching - costs and benefits

2003-03-09 by grantfair2001

I think there are many reasons that ferric chloride is still used so
commonly. It's the "done thing". If you just ask around most advice
about making PCB's will be to use FeCl. And it is readily available,
as are the persulfates which can also be used to etch.

The CuCl approach has several advantages - it is cheap, after the
initial investment for equipment (and maybe chemicals - the mail order
source I found in Canada for CuCL wants $175 for a pound!) and cupric
chloride is very environmentally friendly, since you don't have to
throw out the solution, just top up the hcl from time to time. But for
this you need some lab equipment to do titration, and some bromalin
orange indicator. All this is new and different for most amateurs, the
chemical equipment is not easy to find in the corner store, and it
costs some money when you do track it down. While hcl is readily
available from Home Depot or pool supplies, at the concentrations sold
(28% here in Toronto) it is much more dangerous than fecl or
persulphate. Acid proof gloves and goggles are wise. You need to find
an effective way to generate air bubbles evenly to get a reasonably
even etch. Think and Tinker (IIRC) outlines a good approach with PVC
pipe, but this takes time and tools). To speed etch times, you need
heat. To heat the solution requires a quartz covered heater element,
again not a home depot item, although available cheaply from surplus
sources sometimes. You also need a container to hold the cupric
chloride etchant (the original web article suggests using a plastic
picnic cooler, which is cheap and easily located) but if you heat the
solution I think there can be some hcl fumes which you need to get rid
of without acidifying your work environment with fumes. Do you need a
fume hood? Where do you find an acid proof fan? Where do you safely
vent hcl fumes without corroding neighbors or homes?

I hope to use this approach, but it is not as simple as buying some
fecl and adding water in a plastic container. The benefits are worth
the costs as far as I am concerned, but IMHO its not quick and easy to
get started.

Grant

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "rolanyang <rolan@h...>"
<rolan@h...> wrote:
> I had a chance to play around with some CuCl2 (Cupric Chloride)
> etching last Friday and performed a test etch {snip]
> I can't imagine why people are still using Ferric Chloride.
>
> ~Rolan

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Cupric Choride etching - costs and benefits

2003-03-09 by adam Seychell

I agree, ferric is the good old "standard" hobby etchant. Its quick and low fuss
to getting started. Simply pour some into and old ice-cream container, place in
the board and agitate or let it sit.
The cupric chloride etchant will require a special etching tank permanently
setup. However if you do a fair bit of prototyping I definitely think its worth
the effort building one of these tanks or buying one. Its clean because the
etchant stays in the tank, and there is no setup time involved, just flick the
aquarium pump switch and insert the PCB. I found you also need to make something
to hold the PCB while its immersed in the tank. That way not a drop should spill
on the floor or your skin. Unfortunately chemical resistant tank building is not
that easy. There are a number of ways it can be done, but the best is probably
from perspex sheet and various plastic building materials. Glass is not a good
idea as I found that silicon sealant doesn't make a good long term seal for acid
solutions. The silicon goes a little softer than usual and after several months
to a year it eventually gets salt creep between the glass silicon interface.
Once that happens its a run away effect and you will loose the tank contents.
The easiest way to to find a plastic fabricator and ask them to make you a very
basic slit tank from 3 mm PVC. The top of the tank should be flanged outwards
for added strength, and also to act as carry handles. They will be able to make
this kind of thing in 15 minutes. My tank cost AUD$40. PVC is a good choice
because its easy to work with and can glued for modifications. Note that PVC has
a 48°C temperature rating, after that is starts to weaken. The good thing is
cupric chloride works so fast you can keep it at room temp.

The $175 quoted for 1lb of cupric chloride must be an analytical grade from a
lab supplier. For etching you don't need such purity. Read my post "Subject:
Preparation of cupric chloride etchant" from the other day. Its possible to
prepare the etchant from water, HCl and scrap copper metal, all of wich are very
cheap and readily available.

Acquiring the titration equipment is probably be biggest headache for the
hobbyist0. However once you own this equipment there is no maintenance costs.
Its very basic lab equipment so any lab supplier will sell this kind of stuff.
There should be plenty places around, just look in the local business directory.
Lab suppliers have a tendency not to sell chemicals cheap. Thats ok because you
only need to get the glassware from them (indicator powder if price is right),
and the chemicals come from supermarkets. You could probably get away with food
dyes for the indicator, even turmeric powder is probably accurate enough. The
NaOH standard solution can be made up if you know anyone who has 0.01g accurate
scales. An far easier way to prepare standard NaOH will be to make up a
saturated solution, measure its temperature and then look up solubility chart to
find the concentration. For example, the solubility of NaOH at 20°C is 1090 g/L.
Pipette 5.0 ml of saturate into exactly 1 liter of deionized water to get
0.005*1090/40 = 0.136 Molar standard NaOH solution. You have to buy a pipette
and pipette sucker for doing titration anyhow.

The fumes from cupric chloride ethants are minor as the HCl concentration is
approx 1 Moles/L or 3.6%. It smells a little at room temperature, but only if
you put your nose up close while air is bubbling through the solution. Just keep
the windows in the room open and everything will be fine. Iron tools have a
tendency to rust around HCl fumes.

Adam


grantfair2001 wrote:
> I think there are many reasons that ferric chloride is still used so
> commonly. It's the "done thing". If you just ask around most advice
> about making PCB's will be to use FeCl. And it is readily available,
> as are the persulfates which can also be used to etch.
>
> The CuCl approach has several advantages - it is cheap, after the
> initial investment for equipment (and maybe chemicals - the mail order
> source I found in Canada for CuCL wants $175 for a pound!) and cupric
> chloride is very environmentally friendly, since you don't have to
> throw out the solution, just top up the hcl from time to time. But for
> this you need some lab equipment to do titration, and some bromalin
> orange indicator. All this is new and different for most amateurs, the
> chemical equipment is not easy to find in the corner store, and it
> costs some money when you do track it down. While hcl is readily
> available from Home Depot or pool supplies, at the concentrations sold
> (28% here in Toronto) it is much more dangerous than fecl or
> persulphate. Acid proof gloves and goggles are wise. You need to find
> an effective way to generate air bubbles evenly to get a reasonably
> even etch. Think and Tinker (IIRC) outlines a good approach with PVC
> pipe, but this takes time and tools). To speed etch times, you need
> heat. To heat the solution requires a quartz covered heater element,
> again not a home depot item, although available cheaply from surplus
> sources sometimes. You also need a container to hold the cupric
> chloride etchant (the original web article suggests using a plastic
> picnic cooler, which is cheap and easily located) but if you heat the
> solution I think there can be some hcl fumes which you need to get rid
> of without acidifying your work environment with fumes. Do you need a
> fume hood? Where do you find an acid proof fan? Where do you safely
> vent hcl fumes without corroding neighbors or homes?
>
> I hope to use this approach, but it is not as simple as buying some
> fecl and adding water in a plastic container. The benefits are worth
> the costs as far as I am concerned, but IMHO its not quick and easy to
> get started.
>
> Grant
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "rolanyang <rolan@h...>"
> <rolan@h...> wrote:
>
>>I had a chance to play around with some CuCl2 (Cupric Chloride)
>>etching last Friday and performed a test etch {snip]
>>I can't imagine why people are still using Ferric Chloride.
>>
>>~Rolan
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Re: Cupric Choride etching - costs and benefits

2003-03-09 by grantfair2001

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, adam Seychell
<adam_seychell@y...> wrote:

Thanks Adam - this is helpful advice. Is there any reason not to use a
plastic picnic cooler? I believe these are PVC.

Grant

> I agree, ferric is the good old "standard" hobby etchant. Its quick
and low fuss
> to getting started. Simply pour some into and old ice-cream
container, place in
> the board and agitate or let it sit.
> The cupric chloride etchant will require a special etching tank
permanently
> setup. However if you do a fair bit of prototyping I definitely
think its worth
> the effort building one of these tanks or buying one. Its clean
because the
> etchant stays in the tank, and there is no setup time involved, just
flick the
> aquarium pump switch and insert the PCB. I found you also need to
make something
> to hold the PCB while its immersed in the tank. That way not a drop
should spill
> on the floor or your skin. Unfortunately chemical resistant tank
building is not
> that easy. There are a number of ways it can be done, but the best
is probably
> from perspex sheet and various plastic building materials. Glass is
not a good
> idea as I found that silicon sealant doesn't make a good long term
seal for acid
> solutions. The silicon goes a little softer than usual and after
several months
> to a year it eventually gets salt creep between the glass silicon
interface.
> Once that happens its a run away effect and you will loose the tank
contents.
> The easiest way to to find a plastic fabricator and ask them to make
you a very
> basic slit tank from 3 mm PVC. The top of the tank should be flanged
outwards
> for added strength, and also to act as carry handles. They will be
able to make
> this kind of thing in 15 minutes. My tank cost AUD$40. PVC is a good
choice
> because its easy to work with and can glued for modifications. Note
that PVC has
> a 48°C temperature rating, after that is starts to weaken. The good
thing is
> cupric chloride works so fast you can keep it at room temp.
>
> The $175 quoted for 1lb of cupric chloride must be an analytical
grade from a
> lab supplier. For etching you don't need such purity. Read my post
"Subject:
> Preparation of cupric chloride etchant" from the other day. Its
possible to
> prepare the etchant from water, HCl and scrap copper metal, all of
wich are very
> cheap and readily available.
>
> Acquiring the titration equipment is probably be biggest headache
for the
> hobbyist0. However once you own this equipment there is no
maintenance costs.
> Its very basic lab equipment so any lab supplier will sell this kind
of stuff.
> There should be plenty places around, just look in the local
business directory.
> Lab suppliers have a tendency not to sell chemicals cheap. Thats ok
because you
> only need to get the glassware from them (indicator powder if price
is right),
> and the chemicals come from supermarkets. You could probably get
away with food
> dyes for the indicator, even turmeric powder is probably accurate
enough. The
> NaOH standard solution can be made up if you know anyone who has
0.01g accurate
> scales. An far easier way to prepare standard NaOH will be to make up a
> saturated solution, measure its temperature and then look up
solubility chart to
> find the concentration. For example, the solubility of NaOH at 20°C
is 1090 g/L.
> Pipette 5.0 ml of saturate into exactly 1 liter of deionized water
to get
> 0.005*1090/40 = 0.136 Molar standard NaOH solution. You have to buy
a pipette
> and pipette sucker for doing titration anyhow.
>
> The fumes from cupric chloride ethants are minor as the HCl
concentration is
> approx 1 Moles/L or 3.6%. It smells a little at room temperature,
but only if
> you put your nose up close while air is bubbling through the
solution. Just keep
> the windows in the room open and everything will be fine. Iron tools
have a
> tendency to rust around HCl fumes.
>
> Adam
>
>
> grantfair2001 wrote:
> > I think there are many reasons that ferric chloride is still used so
> > commonly. It's the "done thing". If you just ask around most advice
> > about making PCB's will be to use FeCl. And it is readily available,
> > as are the persulfates which can also be used to etch.
> >
> > The CuCl approach has several advantages - it is cheap, after the
> > initial investment for equipment (and maybe chemicals - the mail order
> > source I found in Canada for CuCL wants $175 for a pound!) and cupric
> > chloride is very environmentally friendly, since you don't have to
> > throw out the solution, just top up the hcl from time to time. But for
> > this you need some lab equipment to do titration, and some bromalin
> > orange indicator. All this is new and different for most amateurs, the
> > chemical equipment is not easy to find in the corner store, and it
> > costs some money when you do track it down. While hcl is readily
> > available from Home Depot or pool supplies, at the concentrations sold
> > (28% here in Toronto) it is much more dangerous than fecl or
> > persulphate. Acid proof gloves and goggles are wise. You need to find
> > an effective way to generate air bubbles evenly to get a reasonably
> > even etch. Think and Tinker (IIRC) outlines a good approach with PVC
> > pipe, but this takes time and tools). To speed etch times, you need
> > heat. To heat the solution requires a quartz covered heater element,
> > again not a home depot item, although available cheaply from surplus
> > sources sometimes. You also need a container to hold the cupric
> > chloride etchant (the original web article suggests using a plastic
> > picnic cooler, which is cheap and easily located) but if you heat the
> > solution I think there can be some hcl fumes which you need to get rid
> > of without acidifying your work environment with fumes. Do you need a
> > fume hood? Where do you find an acid proof fan? Where do you safely
> > vent hcl fumes without corroding neighbors or homes?
> >
> > I hope to use this approach, but it is not as simple as buying some
> > fecl and adding water in a plastic container. The benefits are worth
> > the costs as far as I am concerned, but IMHO its not quick and easy to
> > get started.
> >
> > Grant
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "rolanyang <rolan@h...>"
> > <rolan@h...> wrote:
> >
> >>I had a chance to play around with some CuCl2 (Cupric Chloride)
> >>etching last Friday and performed a test etch {snip]
> >>I can't imagine why people are still using Ferric Chloride.
> >>
> >>~Rolan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Cupric Choride etching - costs and benefits

2003-03-09 by adam Seychell

No reason I can think of. picnic coolers are cheap, and have a good lid. I built
my tanks because I needed those dimensions. I coudnl't find anything off the
shelf that was narrow and deep enough, base = 45x250mm high = 350 mm.
Any of the food plastics are ok with strong acids.
Now you only concern is getting hold of some lab equipment.

Here is lab order list.

1 * 5 ml class B volumetric pipette
(preferred to graduated pipette)
(buy a second in case you break it)
1 * rubber bulb pipette sucker
1 * 125 ml dropper bottle for indicator (makes life easier)
1 * 50 ml glass burette, class B.
1 * 0-50°C (or 0-100°C) glass thermometer
1 * 250 ml erlenmeyer flask
1 * Bromophenol Blue indicator
(1 gram will last you ever and a day)


You also have to make some kind of stand to hold the burette, I made something
out of wood that was a *LOT* cheaper than buying a dedicated stand. Fasten the
burette with rubber bands to a length of wood, and hold that by a stand from a
heavy base using a diagonal pole. The area under the burette nozzle needs to be
free to place the erlenmeyer flask.

The deionized water and sodium hydroxide is available from most supermarkets.
You also need some ethanol to make up the bromophenol blue indicator. Its
probably better to get the right indicator rather trying to use turmeric power
because it will be easier to see the end point of the titration, which makes the
job easier to carry out.






grantfair2001 wrote:
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, adam Seychell
> <adam_seychell@y...> wrote:
>
> Thanks Adam - this is helpful advice. Is there any reason not to use a
> plastic picnic cooler? I believe these are PVC.
>
> Grant
>
>
>>I agree, ferric is the good old "standard" hobby etchant. Its quick
>
> and low fuss
>
>>to getting started. Simply pour some into and old ice-cream
>
> container, place in
>
>>the board and agitate or let it sit.
>>The cupric chloride etchant will require a special etching tank
>
> permanently
>
>>setup. However if you do a fair bit of prototyping I definitely
>
> think its worth
>
>>the effort building one of these tanks or buying one. Its clean
>
> because the
>
>>etchant stays in the tank, and there is no setup time involved, just
>
> flick the
>
>>aquarium pump switch and insert the PCB. I found you also need to
>
> make something
>
>>to hold the PCB while its immersed in the tank. That way not a drop
>
> should spill
>
>>on the floor or your skin. Unfortunately chemical resistant tank
>
> building is not
>
>>that easy. There are a number of ways it can be done, but the best
>
> is probably
>
>>from perspex sheet and various plastic building materials. Glass is
>
> not a good
>
>>idea as I found that silicon sealant doesn't make a good long term
>
> seal for acid
>
>>solutions. The silicon goes a little softer than usual and after
>
> several months
>
>>to a year it eventually gets salt creep between the glass silicon
>
> interface.
>
>>Once that happens its a run away effect and you will loose the tank
>
> contents.
>
>>The easiest way to to find a plastic fabricator and ask them to make
>
> you a very
>
>>basic slit tank from 3 mm PVC. The top of the tank should be flanged
>
> outwards
>
>>for added strength, and also to act as carry handles. They will be
>
> able to make
>
>>this kind of thing in 15 minutes. My tank cost AUD$40. PVC is a good
>
> choice
>
>>because its easy to work with and can glued for modifications. Note
>
> that PVC has
>
>>a 48°C temperature rating, after that is starts to weaken. The good
>
> thing is
>
>>cupric chloride works so fast you can keep it at room temp.
>>
>>The $175 quoted for 1lb of cupric chloride must be an analytical
>
> grade from a
>
>>lab supplier. For etching you don't need such purity. Read my post
>
> "Subject:
>
>>Preparation of cupric chloride etchant" from the other day. Its
>
> possible to
>
>>prepare the etchant from water, HCl and scrap copper metal, all of
>
> wich are very
>
>>cheap and readily available.
>>
>>Acquiring the titration equipment is probably be biggest headache
>
> for the
>
>>hobbyist0. However once you own this equipment there is no
>
> maintenance costs.
>
>>Its very basic lab equipment so any lab supplier will sell this kind
>
> of stuff.
>
>>There should be plenty places around, just look in the local
>
> business directory.
>
>>Lab suppliers have a tendency not to sell chemicals cheap. Thats ok
>
> because you
>
>>only need to get the glassware from them (indicator powder if price
>
> is right),
>
>>and the chemicals come from supermarkets. You could probably get
>
> away with food
>
>>dyes for the indicator, even turmeric powder is probably accurate
>
> enough. The
>
>>NaOH standard solution can be made up if you know anyone who has
>
> 0.01g accurate
>
>>scales. An far easier way to prepare standard NaOH will be to make up a
>>saturated solution, measure its temperature and then look up
>
> solubility chart to
>
>>find the concentration. For example, the solubility of NaOH at 20°C
>
> is 1090 g/L.
>
>>Pipette 5.0 ml of saturate into exactly 1 liter of deionized water
>
> to get
>
>>0.005*1090/40 = 0.136 Molar standard NaOH solution. You have to buy
>
> a pipette
>
>>and pipette sucker for doing titration anyhow.
>>
>>The fumes from cupric chloride ethants are minor as the HCl
>
> concentration is
>
>>approx 1 Moles/L or 3.6%. It smells a little at room temperature,
>
> but only if
>
>>you put your nose up close while air is bubbling through the
>
> solution. Just keep
>
>>the windows in the room open and everything will be fine. Iron tools
>
> have a
>
>>tendency to rust around HCl fumes.
>>
>>Adam
>>
>>
>>grantfair2001 wrote:
>>
>>>I think there are many reasons that ferric chloride is still used so
>>>commonly. It's the "done thing". If you just ask around most advice
>>>about making PCB's will be to use FeCl. And it is readily available,
>>>as are the persulfates which can also be used to etch.
>>>
>>>The CuCl approach has several advantages - it is cheap, after the
>>>initial investment for equipment (and maybe chemicals - the mail order
>>>source I found in Canada for CuCL wants $175 for a pound!) and cupric
>>>chloride is very environmentally friendly, since you don't have to
>>>throw out the solution, just top up the hcl from time to time. But for
>>>this you need some lab equipment to do titration, and some bromalin
>>>orange indicator. All this is new and different for most amateurs, the
>>>chemical equipment is not easy to find in the corner store, and it
>>>costs some money when you do track it down. While hcl is readily
>>>available from Home Depot or pool supplies, at the concentrations sold
>>>(28% here in Toronto) it is much more dangerous than fecl or
>>>persulphate. Acid proof gloves and goggles are wise. You need to find
>>>an effective way to generate air bubbles evenly to get a reasonably
>>>even etch. Think and Tinker (IIRC) outlines a good approach with PVC
>>>pipe, but this takes time and tools). To speed etch times, you need
>>>heat. To heat the solution requires a quartz covered heater element,
>>>again not a home depot item, although available cheaply from surplus
>>>sources sometimes. You also need a container to hold the cupric
>>>chloride etchant (the original web article suggests using a plastic
>>>picnic cooler, which is cheap and easily located) but if you heat the
>>>solution I think there can be some hcl fumes which you need to get rid
>>>of without acidifying your work environment with fumes. Do you need a
>>>fume hood? Where do you find an acid proof fan? Where do you safely
>>>vent hcl fumes without corroding neighbors or homes?
>>>
>>>I hope to use this approach, but it is not as simple as buying some
>>>fecl and adding water in a plastic container. The benefits are worth
>>>the costs as far as I am concerned, but IMHO its not quick and easy to
>>>get started.
>>>
>>>Grant
>>>
>>>--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "rolanyang <rolan@h...>"
>>><rolan@h...> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I had a chance to play around with some CuCl2 (Cupric Chloride)
>>>>etching last Friday and performed a test etch {snip]
>>>>I can't imagine why people are still using Ferric Chloride.
>>>>
>>>>~Rolan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>>>
>>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>
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Re: Cupric Choride etching - costs and benefits

2003-03-10 by grantfair2001

Thanks again Adam.

The Rex Allers article suggests obtaining a hydrometer to monitor the
density of the etchant, which should start out at a density of 1.17
g/mL, and will increase as copper dissolves into the solution. He
suggests a hydrometer with an expanded scale of 1.15 to 1.25 g/mL.
According to my tentative understanding a range of 19 to 31 Baume
would work here, does this seem right?

I note that American Science and Surplus has some Chinex lab glassware
(student grade) at low prices. The beaker and erlenmeyer flasks are
available in the sizes you suggest:

http://www.sciplus.com/category.cfm?subsection=4

Would any of their pipettes do the trick?

The Rex Allers article shows titration using the burette and beaker,
is the erlenmyer flask better in some way?

Grant

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, adam Seychell
<adam_seychell@y...> wrote:
> No reason I can think of. picnic coolers are cheap, and have a good
lid. I built
> my tanks because I needed those dimensions. I coudnl't find anything
off the
> shelf that was narrow and deep enough, base = 45x250mm high = 350 mm.
> Any of the food plastics are ok with strong acids.
> Now you only concern is getting hold of some lab equipment.
>
> Here is lab order list.
>
> 1 * 5 ml class B volumetric pipette
> (preferred to graduated pipette)
> (buy a second in case you break it)
> 1 * rubber bulb pipette sucker
> 1 * 125 ml dropper bottle for indicator (makes life easier)
> 1 * 50 ml glass burette, class B.
> 1 * 0-50°C (or 0-100°C) glass thermometer
> 1 * 250 ml erlenmeyer flask
> 1 * Bromophenol Blue indicator
> (1 gram will last you ever and a day)
>
>
> You also have to make some kind of stand to hold the burette, I made
something
> out of wood that was a *LOT* cheaper than buying a dedicated stand.
Fasten the
> burette with rubber bands to a length of wood, and hold that by a
stand from a
> heavy base using a diagonal pole. The area under the burette nozzle
needs to be
> free to place the erlenmeyer flask.
>
> The deionized water and sodium hydroxide is available from most
supermarkets.
> You also need some ethanol to make up the bromophenol blue
indicator. Its
> probably better to get the right indicator rather trying to use
turmeric power
> because it will be easier to see the end point of the titration,
which makes the
> job easier to carry out.

Re: Cupric Choride etching - costs and benefits

2003-03-10 by rolanyang

For a etching tank, I used a tupper "juice" pitcher which can be
purchased from the local grocery store or around here in NJ... the
99-cent stores.

I haven't run into problems with an imbalanced etching solution yet,
but if I did notice sludging that didn't clear up with aeration, I
imagine one
could buy a beer/wine hygrometer for cheap
( http://brewsupplies.com/cgi-bin/quikstore.cgi has them for $5 a
piece ).

and if the sludging still didn't clear up after correcting the sp
density of the water,
then it can be assumed that the solution may need more HCl.
At which point I would add a nonscientific "dash" to the bath every
now and then
until the sludge cleared up.

All that laboratory equipment seems like a bit of overkill to
maintain a simple
bath of CuCl etchant - which doesn't really need a precise PH to
perform
its duty.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, adam Seychell
<adam_seychell@y...> wrote:
> No reason I can think of. picnic coolers are cheap, and have a good
lid. I built
> my tanks because I needed those dimensions. I coudnl't find
anything off the
> shelf that was narrow and deep enough, base = 45x250mm high = 350
mm.
> Any of the food plastics are ok with strong acids.
> Now you only concern is getting hold of some lab equipment.
>
> Here is lab order list.
>
> 1 * 5 ml class B volumetric pipette
> (preferred to graduated pipette)
> (buy a second in case you break it)
> 1 * rubber bulb pipette sucker
> 1 * 125 ml dropper bottle for indicator (makes life easier)
> 1 * 50 ml glass burette, class B.
> 1 * 0-50°C (or 0-100°C) glass thermometer
> 1 * 250 ml erlenmeyer flask
> 1 * Bromophenol Blue indicator
> (1 gram will last you ever and a day)
>
>
> You also have to make some kind of stand to hold the burette, I
made something
> out of wood that was a *LOT* cheaper than buying a dedicated stand.
Fasten the
> burette with rubber bands to a length of wood, and hold that by a
stand from a
> heavy base using a diagonal pole. The area under the burette nozzle
needs to be
> free to place the erlenmeyer flask.
>
> The deionized water and sodium hydroxide is available from most
supermarkets.
> You also need some ethanol to make up the bromophenol blue
indicator. Its
> probably better to get the right indicator rather trying to use
turmeric power
> because it will be easier to see the end point of the titration,
which makes the
> job easier to carry out.
>
>
> > Thanks Adam - this is helpful advice. Is there any reason not to
use a
> > plastic picnic cooler? I believe these are PVC.
> >
> > Grant
>
> >

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Cupric Choride etching - costs and benefits

2003-03-11 by Adam Seychell

If you have a experience with the process then you can probably
throw away the instrumentation and do it by eye, noise and
conscious. Etching solutions aren't that critical. The ability to
perform titration will give you confidence that the bath is
running at optimum for someone who is inexperienced. The two
variables are free HCl and solution density (which indicates a
copper content).
I found the "cheap" hydrometers that don't comply with any
standard are not worth their money. I've compared them to good
ones and the difference in readings is shameful. The BS718
standard hydrometers are not hugely more expensive, in Australia
$31 compared to $18 "educational" hydrometers.

rolanyang wrote:
> For a etching tank, I used a tupper "juice" pitcher which can be
> purchased from the local grocery store or around here in NJ... the
> 99-cent stores.
>
> I haven't run into problems with an imbalanced etching solution yet,
> but if I did notice sludging that didn't clear up with aeration, I
> imagine one
> could buy a beer/wine hygrometer for cheap
> ( http://brewsupplies.com/cgi-bin/quikstore.cgi has them for $5 a
> piece ).
>
> and if the sludging still didn't clear up after correcting the sp
> density of the water,
> then it can be assumed that the solution may need more HCl.
> At which point I would add a nonscientific "dash" to the bath every
> now and then
> until the sludge cleared up.
>
> All that laboratory equipment seems like a bit of overkill to
> maintain a simple
> bath of CuCl etchant - which doesn't really need a precise PH to
> perform
> its duty.
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, adam Seychell
> <adam_seychell@y...> wrote:
>
>>No reason I can think of. picnic coolers are cheap, and have a good
>
> lid. I built
>
>>my tanks because I needed those dimensions. I coudnl't find
>
> anything off the
>
>>shelf that was narrow and deep enough, base = 45x250mm high = 350
>
> mm.
>
>>Any of the food plastics are ok with strong acids.
>>Now you only concern is getting hold of some lab equipment.
>>
>>Here is lab order list.
>>
>>1 * 5 ml class B volumetric pipette
>> (preferred to graduated pipette)
>> (buy a second in case you break it)
>>1 * rubber bulb pipette sucker
>>1 * 125 ml dropper bottle for indicator (makes life easier)
>>1 * 50 ml glass burette, class B.
>>1 * 0-50°C (or 0-100°C) glass thermometer
>>1 * 250 ml erlenmeyer flask
>>1 * Bromophenol Blue indicator
>> (1 gram will last you ever and a day)
>>
>>
>>You also have to make some kind of stand to hold the burette, I
>
> made something
>
>>out of wood that was a *LOT* cheaper than buying a dedicated stand.
>
> Fasten the
>
>>burette with rubber bands to a length of wood, and hold that by a
>
> stand from a
>
>>heavy base using a diagonal pole. The area under the burette nozzle
>
> needs to be
>
>>free to place the erlenmeyer flask.
>>
>>The deionized water and sodium hydroxide is available from most
>
> supermarkets.
>
>>You also need some ethanol to make up the bromophenol blue
>
> indicator. Its
>
>>probably better to get the right indicator rather trying to use
>
> turmeric power
>
>>because it will be easier to see the end point of the titration,
>
> which makes the
>
>>job easier to carry out.
>>
>>
>>
>>>Thanks Adam - this is helpful advice. Is there any reason not to
>>
> use a
>
>>>plastic picnic cooler? I believe these are PVC.
>>>
>>>Grant
>>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Cupric Choride etching - costs and benefits

2003-03-11 by Adam Seychell

Oh sorry, I forgot to mention the hydrometer. I've only seen
1.100 to 1.200 g/mL range. Any equipment that is used for doing a
measurement then I don't recommend no name brands. This stuff is
only for education purposes. I originally tried to save a few
dollars and bought by first lab equipment from an educational
supply that had cheap plastic burettes, glass hydrometers. I
later bought proper brand name glassware that come with a
specified tolerance. When I compared readings to no name brand
equipment the differences were very high. >30% error for
hydrometer and 4% error for the burette. When making measurement
you should some idea of the tolerance of the instrument being
used. Otherwise you are wasting your money.

Luther m stroud mentioned, having all this lab equipment might be
an overkill. He brings up a good point. How about setting up your
etching tank and start etching circuit boards before investing in
some lab ware. You don't need any fancy equipment to prepare the
copper etchant. Only some kitchen scales and measuring jugs.
Later, when your etchant starts to become exhausted you may
decide to buy the equipment and restore the etchant.

Adam

grantfair2001 wrote:
> Thanks again Adam.
>
> The Rex Allers article suggests obtaining a hydrometer to monitor the
> density of the etchant, which should start out at a density of 1.17
> g/mL, and will increase as copper dissolves into the solution. He
> suggests a hydrometer with an expanded scale of 1.15 to 1.25 g/mL.
> According to my tentative understanding a range of 19 to 31 Baume
> would work here, does this seem right?
>
> I note that American Science and Surplus has some Chinex lab glassware
> (student grade) at low prices. The beaker and erlenmeyer flasks are
> available in the sizes you suggest:
>
> http://www.sciplus.com/category.cfm?subsection=4
>
> Would any of their pipettes do the trick?
>
> The Rex Allers article shows titration using the burette and beaker,
> is the erlenmyer flask better in some way?
>
> Grant
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, adam Seychell
> <adam_seychell@y...> wrote:
>
>>No reason I can think of. picnic coolers are cheap, and have a good
>
> lid. I built
>
>>my tanks because I needed those dimensions. I coudnl't find anything
>
> off the
>
>>shelf that was narrow and deep enough, base = 45x250mm high = 350 mm.
>>Any of the food plastics are ok with strong acids.
>>Now you only concern is getting hold of some lab equipment.
>>
>>Here is lab order list.
>>
>>1 * 5 ml class B volumetric pipette
>> (preferred to graduated pipette)
>> (buy a second in case you break it)
>>1 * rubber bulb pipette sucker
>>1 * 125 ml dropper bottle for indicator (makes life easier)
>>1 * 50 ml glass burette, class B.
>>1 * 0-50°C (or 0-100°C) glass thermometer
>>1 * 250 ml erlenmeyer flask
>>1 * Bromophenol Blue indicator
>> (1 gram will last you ever and a day)
>>
>>
>>You also have to make some kind of stand to hold the burette, I made
>
> something
>
>>out of wood that was a *LOT* cheaper than buying a dedicated stand.
>
> Fasten the
>
>>burette with rubber bands to a length of wood, and hold that by a
>
> stand from a
>
>>heavy base using a diagonal pole. The area under the burette nozzle
>
> needs to be
>
>>free to place the erlenmeyer flask.
>>
>>The deionized water and sodium hydroxide is available from most
>
> supermarkets.
>
>>You also need some ethanol to make up the bromophenol blue
>
> indicator. Its
>
>>probably better to get the right indicator rather trying to use
>
> turmeric power
>
>>because it will be easier to see the end point of the titration,
>
> which makes the
>
>>job easier to carry out.
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Re: Cupric Choride etching - costs and benefits

2003-03-13 by grantfair2001

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Adam Seychell
<adam_seychell@y...> wrote:
> Oh sorry, I forgot to mention the hydrometer. [snip]
>
> Luther m stroud mentioned, having all this lab equipment might be
> an overkill. He brings up a good point. How about setting up your
> etching tank and start etching circuit boards before investing in
> some lab ware. You don't need any fancy equipment to prepare the
> copper etchant. Only some kitchen scales and measuring jugs.
> Later, when your etchant starts to become exhausted you may
> decide to buy the equipment and restore the etchant.
>
> Adam

Well, that's pretty good advice. I already have some HCl. I did not
realize it took so long for the copper to react - so when I tried it,
after an hour I assumed nothing had happened or would happen. When I
get the picnic chest and a workplace organized I will give it a go.

Grant