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Using an Epson R300 to make PCBs

Using an Epson R300 to make PCBs

2006-04-10 by aitken_bryce

Hi folks I am new at this and as I have a Epson R300 printer which 
allows printing on CD it should be possible with the correct driver 
to print a PCB up to the size of a CD (120mm) diameter. 

Now I am sure I am not the only person to have considered this but 
unfortunately my programming expertise precludes me from even 
attempting it! 

The black ink cartridge could be filled with resist instead of 
normal ink and providing that a flusher solvent was available for 
use at the end of each print run the printer should come to no harm 
either. A CD is a similar thickness to a PCB so a very 
accurate "print" would be obtained directly onto the PCB.

Have any of you clever guys out there done any work on this front??

Look forward to some replies telling it has all been done and 
telling me where to download the necessary software!!

Best regards,

Bryce

Re: Using an Epson R300 to make PCBs

2006-04-10 by snova1987a

> The black ink cartridge could be filled with resist instead of 
> normal ink and providing that a flusher solvent was available for 
> use at the end of each print run the printer should come to no harm 
> either. A CD is a similar thickness to a PCB so a very 
> accurate "print" would be obtained directly onto the PCB.

I never really thought about that, but that sure is a clever idea.

I have an R200, and its CD printing is nothing short of phenomenal.

I'm not really familiar with Epson's inkjet printers, since this is my
first non-HP inkjet, so would using a different kind of ink (or the
solvent you mentioned) cause any other parts to be damaged?  The ink
in Sharpie pens would be perfect---it dries very fast on copper, and
resists etchant VERY well.

It's not a bad idea if it could work!  And the R220 (the R200's
replacement) is cheap enough that I'd buy one just for PCB printing.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Using an Epson R300 to make PCBs

2006-04-10 by Stefan Trethan

On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 21:53:25 +0200, snova1987a <snova1987a@...>  
wrote:

> I never really thought about that, but that sure is a clever idea.
>
>
> I have an R200, and its CD printing is nothing short of phenomenal.
>
>
> I'm not really familiar with Epson's inkjet printers, since this is my
>
> first non-HP inkjet, so would using a different kind of ink (or the
>
> solvent you mentioned) cause any other parts to be damaged?  The ink
>
> in Sharpie pens would be perfect---it dries very fast on copper, and
>
> resists etchant VERY well.
>
>
> It's not a bad idea if it could work!  And the R220 (the R200's
>
> replacement) is cheap enough that I'd buy one just for PCB printing.


Does this printer not require specially coated inkjet CDs?


If it does, it is just like any other inkjet, only a awkward format.

You can't just pop another ink in there, like permanent marker ink, it  
won't work.
(And i know what because i have been there, tried that).

The mechanic modifications to any printer would be easy, the trick is to  
make it print ink that works as resist.


Try it if you like, if you find a ink that works please tell us, but i'm  
not holding my breath....

ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Using an Epson R300 to make PCBs

2006-04-10 by Bryce Aitken

Hi Stephan of course the CD's need to be specially coated but if the normal 
inks will adhere to  matt and highly glossy "special" CD surfaces then why 
should resist ink not adhere to chemically clean copper??

Cheers,

Bryce

----- Original Message ----- 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 9:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Using an Epson R300 to make PCBs


> On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 21:53:25 +0200, snova1987a <snova1987a@...>
> wrote:
>
>> I never really thought about that, but that sure is a clever idea.
>>
>>
>> I have an R200, and its CD printing is nothing short of phenomenal.
>>
>>
>> I'm not really familiar with Epson's inkjet printers, since this is my
>>
>> first non-HP inkjet, so would using a different kind of ink (or the
>>
>> solvent you mentioned) cause any other parts to be damaged?  The ink
>>
>> in Sharpie pens would be perfect---it dries very fast on copper, and
>>
>> resists etchant VERY well.
>>
>>
>> It's not a bad idea if it could work!  And the R220 (the R200's
>>
>> replacement) is cheap enough that I'd buy one just for PCB printing.
>
>
> Does this printer not require specially coated inkjet CDs?
>
>
> If it does, it is just like any other inkjet, only a awkward format.
>
> You can't just pop another ink in there, like permanent marker ink, it
> won't work.
> (And i know what because i have been there, tried that).
>
> The mechanic modifications to any printer would be easy, the trick is to
> make it print ink that works as resist.
>
>
> Try it if you like, if you find a ink that works please tell us, but i'm
> not holding my breath....
>
> ST
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and 
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Using an Epson R300 to make PCBs

2006-04-10 by Stefan Trethan

On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 23:00:11 +0200, Bryce Aitken <bryce.aitken@...>  
wrote:

> Hi Stephan of course the CD's need to be specially coated but if the  
> normal
>
> inks will adhere to  matt and highly glossy "special" CD surfaces then  
> why
>
> should resist ink not adhere to chemically clean copper??
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> Bryce

'cause the inkjet coating on CDs is the same as on OHP foils, just put a  
laser OHP foil in your inkjet and look at the result.
I'm all for it, but i don't think it's gonna happen. It is only a 5 minute  
effort to try if the original ink will work.

ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Using an Epson R300 to make PCBs

2006-04-11 by Leon Heller

----- Original Message ----- 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Bryce Aitken" <bryce.aitken@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 10:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Using an Epson R300 to make PCBs


> Hi Stephan of course the CD's need to be specially coated but if the 
> normal
> inks will adhere to  matt and highly glossy "special" CD surfaces then why
> should resist ink not adhere to chemically clean copper??

I wouldn't waste your time with that printer. The commercial systems that 
use that inkjet technique cure the ink as it is being applied using UV.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
leon.heller@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

Re: Using an Epson R300 to make PCBs

2006-04-11 by fenrir_co

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "aitken_bryce" 
<bryce.aitken@...> wrote:
>
> Hi folks I am new at this and as I have a Epson R300 printer which 
> allows printing on CD it should be possible with the correct driver 
> to print a PCB up to the size of a CD (120mm) diameter. 
> 
> Now I am sure I am not the only person to have considered this but 
> unfortunately my programming expertise precludes me from even 
> attempting it! 
> 
> The black ink cartridge could be filled with resist instead of 
> normal ink and providing that a flusher solvent was available for 
> use at the end of each print run the printer should come to no harm 
> either. A CD is a similar thickness to a PCB so a very 
> accurate "print" would be obtained directly onto the PCB.
> 
> Have any of you clever guys out there done any work on this front??
> 
> Look forward to some replies telling it has all been done and 
> telling me where to download the necessary software!!
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Bryce

I'll start by saying that I don't like Epson. Their printers make the 
best quality photos for the low price, the printhead technology is 
different than HP or Canon and allows for better prints, but the rest 
of the hardware in the printer is junk. I bought an R340 and only had 
it for 3 months before it broke down, the CD printing function failed 
first, then the rest of the printing functions slowly broke. Their 
warranty service is terrible, it's not an 800 number, and they hassle 
you every step of the way to get it fixed, the staff is rude, and 
they charge your credit card (they said it was just a hold, but then 
they tried to charge it) before they send you a replacement. So if you 
buy an Epson, expect a very big fight if you have to claim warranty 
service and don't give them your debit-with-credit-ability card 
number, only give them a 'real' credit card if you /have/ to.

I know for a fact that the R340/320/300M/300/220/200 ink (all the 
same) will not work on copper or brass. Since I use paper thin sheets 
for what I do, I could feed it through the normal paper path and it 
would print on it, but then bead up. The higher end pigment printers, 
such as the R800, R1800, and R2400 use Ultrachrome inks which are slow 
drying, and only designed to work best on special art print papers, 
and not 'standard' inkjet papers which is why they don't work on 
transparencies and can smear if not allowed to dry for quite awhile. 
However, the Epson C-series printers take Durabrite ink, which have 
something similar to an acrylic enamel in it, which dries nearly 
instantly, and is waterproof. It dries so fast that the C-series 
printers have an extremely long history of breaking down nearly 
instantly - if you do not print constantly, at least 1x a day, and 
preferably much more, the ink will dry in the print heads and destroy 
the printer. The C-series printers do not have a CD printing slot. 
However, the printheads in the R-series and C-series printers are very 
similar (there are aftermarket pigment inks for people who want to use 
Ultrachrome-quality ink in the cheaper R printers). The cartridges are 
also exactly the same size and shape. 

My suggestion would be to go to Epson's website and get a refurbished 
R200 printer, which runs around $60-70, less than a set of the ink 
would cost. Order a black Durabrite cartridge with it, or pick one up 
from the store (the newest Durabrite Ultra type cartridges have the 
Chair logo on them), swap the chips with the black cartridge that the 
printer came with, and try using it that way. Make /sure/ that you 
print at least a little black every day after doing this, or the 
printer /will/ clog up. I wouldn't be able to tell you how to modify 
the CD tray to accept PCBs.

I have seen 'Sublimation' aftermarket refill kits (not the same as a 
real dye-sub printer) for Epsons which allow you to create prints that 
can be transferred to mugs, and I have seen one webpage that also 
mentioned printing on 'specially treated foil paper'. I cannot find 
this website right now, though.

Through plating - double sided

2006-04-11 by Herbert E. Plett

hi guys,
I am new to this group. 
I checked the archives and found some interesting things, but nothing about
home-brew through plating (or DIY equivalent).

How do you guys manage the double sided assembly? not all components allow
soldering on both the solder and component side (caps, DIP bases, connectors,
etc). Also there is the problem of vias under SMDs and the CAD packages (I use
mainly EAGLE) are not very helpful/happy in placing 'redundant' vias for
'wired' through-board connections.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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Re: Using an Epson R300 to make PCBs

2006-04-11 by derekhawkins

>I know for a fact that the R340/320/300M/300/220/200 ink (all the
>same) will not work on copper or brass.

I have a R320 and the ink works fine with Epson's transparencies. That 
ink doesn't clog the nozzles easily either, I'm yet to clean the heads 
yet and usage is like twice a month. There's an Ink and Paper 
Compatibility Guide on their web site. Using Durabrite ink in those 
printers for transparencies is totally unnecessary IMO.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "fenrir_co" <fenrir@...> wrote:
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Using an Epson R300 to make PCBs

2006-04-11 by Stefan Trethan

On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 17:49:53 +0200, derekhawkins <eldata@...> wrote:

>
>
> I have a R320 and the ink works fine with Epson's transparencies. That
>
> ink doesn't clog the nozzles easily either, I'm yet to clean the heads
>
> yet and usage is like twice a month. There's an Ink and Paper
>
> Compatibility Guide on their web site. Using Durabrite ink in those
>
> printers for transparencies is totally unnecessary IMO.


With epson _inkjet_ transparencies i assume.
These are 'specially coated to absorb the ink, the PCB isn't.

I tried red staedtler ink in a epson head, which works very well when  
applied with a pen, but it wouldn't work very well in the printer.
<www.trethan.at.tf/pub/alu_staedtler.jpg>

that was printed before the nozzles clogged up any more.

what i know does work is tektronix phaser solid wax printers directly on  
copper. But that is a wax not a ink.


ST

Re: Through plating - double sided

2006-04-11 by derekhawkins

>How do you guys manage the double sided assembly? not all components 
>allow soldering on both the solder and component side (caps, DIP 
>bases, connectors, etc). 

Looks like I broke all the rules then (Eagle). Here is an example 
where there is no such thing as a dedicated solder and component 
side. It's a mix of thru hole components and SMD components on either 
side. The board is panel mounted in an upright position;

One side;

http://www.pbase.com/eldata/image/57091263/original

Other side:

http://www.pbase.com/eldata/image/57091286/original

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Herbert E. Plett" 
<cachureos@...> wrote:
>

[Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Through plating - double sided

2006-04-11 by Robert Hedan

Derek,

What do you use to get such clean soldering?

Robert
:)




-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de derekhawkins
Envoyé : avril 11 2006 12:15
À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Through plating - double sided


>How do you guys manage the double sided assembly? not all components
>allow soldering on both the solder and component side (caps, DIP 
>bases, connectors, etc). 

Looks like I broke all the rules then (Eagle). Here is an example 
where there is no such thing as a dedicated solder and component 
side. It's a mix of thru hole components and SMD components on either 
side. The board is panel mounted in an upright position;

One side;

http://www.pbase.com/eldata/image/57091263/original

Other side:

http://www.pbase.com/eldata/image/57091286/original

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Herbert E. Plett" 
<cachureos@...> wrote:
>







Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs

If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/ 
Yahoo! Groups Links

Re: Using an Epson R300 to make PCBs

2006-04-11 by derekhawkins

>With epson _inkjet_ transparencies i assume.
>These are 'specially coated to absorb the ink, the PCB isn't.

And Gabriel said to Mohammed....READ!....READ!

>what i know does work is tektronix phaser solid wax printers
>directly on copper. But that is a wax not a ink.

I'm not interested in any process that prints directly to copper.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>

Re: Through plating - double sided

2006-04-11 by derekhawkins

>What do you use to get such clean soldering?

The board was tinned with plumber's solder paste, after that it was 
just a soldering iron and .015" solder from Radio Shack of all places. 

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hedan <robert.hedan@...> 
wrote:
>

[Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Through plating - double sided

2006-04-11 by Robert Hedan

What brand soldering paste?  And what process did you use to tin the board?

And what brand/model solder was it?  Those joints are beautiful, no ugly
residue from rosin.

Robert
:)



-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de derekhawkins
Envoyé : avril 11 2006 13:26
À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Through plating - double sided


The board was tinned with plumber's solder paste, after that it was 
just a soldering iron and .015" solder from Radio Shack of all places.

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Through plating - double sided

2006-04-11 by Stefan Trethan

On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 19:36:22 +0200, Robert Hedan  
<robert.hedan@...> wrote:

> And what brand/model solder was it?  Those joints are beautiful, no ugly
>
> residue from rosin.


guess he washed it?

ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Using an Epson R300 to make PCBs

2006-04-11 by Alan King

derekhawkins wrote:

>>I know for a fact that the R340/320/300M/300/220/200 ink (all the
>>same) will not work on copper or brass.
>>    
>>
>
>I have a R320 and the ink works fine with Epson's transparencies. That 
>ink doesn't clog the nozzles easily either, I'm yet to clean the heads 
>yet and usage is like twice a month. There's an Ink and Paper 
>  
>

   Epson is notorious for wasting 30% of the ink for cleaning the 
heads.  This printer cleans the heads on its own about every time it's 
used, even only hours apart  The reason it's almost never necessary to 
do a manual cleaning is because it does so many automatic ones.  
Printers are super cheap for the manufacturing costs, carts only have 
13.5 grams of ink and cost a fortune.  It's also why the driver resets 
to Epson Vivid every chance it gets, they make their money off the inks..

Alan

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Using an Epson R300 to make PCBs

2006-04-11 by Alan King

>I tried red staedtler ink in a epson head, which works very well when  
>applied with a pen, but it wouldn't work very well in the printer.
><www.trethan.at.tf/pub/alu_staedtler.jpg>
>
>that was printed before the nozzles clogged up any more.
>
>what i know does work is tektronix phaser solid wax printers directly on  
>copper. But that is a wax not a ink.
>
>
>ST
>  
>


  And what would be really good to try would be the parrafin.  But of 
course, Epson with the easy CD tray also has permanent seperate heads, 
which would be much more of a PITA to keep flowing..  And equally of 
course, the HP's with the all in one head and cart don't have an easy 
printer for doing a board that I'm aware of, haven't looked at their 
newest offerings in a while though.  Not helping I finally tossed all my 
old HP inkjets, they aren't worth much and were taking up too much room..

Alan

[Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Through plating - double sided

2006-04-11 by Robert Hedan

I was wondering if that was the results of a no-clean type of solder, I've
never used those before.

Robert
:)


-----Message d'origine-----
De : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com] De
la part de Stefan Trethan
Envoyé : avril 11 2006 13:39
À : Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Objet : Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Through plating - double sided



guess he washed it?

ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Using an Epson R300 to make PCBs

2006-04-11 by Stefan Trethan

On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 19:49:18 +0200, Alan King <alan@...> wrote:

> And what would be really good to try would be the parrafin.  But of
>
> course, Epson with the easy CD tray also has permanent seperate heads,
>
> which would be much more of a PITA to keep flowing..  And equally of
>
> course, the HP's with the all in one head and cart don't have an easy
>
> printer for doing a board that I'm aware of, haven't looked at their
>
> newest offerings in a while though.  Not helping I finally tossed all my
>
> old HP inkjets, they aren't worth much and were taking up too much room..
>
>
> Alan


There's no way on earth paraffin will go through the epson printhead. How  
would you keep the plastic parts hot enough to even keep it liquid?

HPs even need conductive ink to heat it in their bubblejet heads i think.

no way, just no way with wax....

ST

Re: Through plating - double sided

2006-04-11 by derekhawkins

>What brand soldering paste?  And what process did you use to tin
>the board?

Search these archives on >plumber's solder paste<, discussion goes back 
to around August 15, 2005. 

>And what brand/model solder was it?  Those joints are beautiful, no 
>ugly residue from rosin.

Radio Shack, any rosin core solder should do, just use a toothbrush and 
mineral spirits to clean off the residue.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hedan <robert.hedan@...> 
wrote:
>

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Through plating - double sided

2006-04-11 by Alan Marconett

Hi,

I hope that wasn't ACID paste!  Not normally used on electronic circuits!

Alan  KM6VV
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> On Behalf Of Robert Hedan
> 
> What brand soldering paste?  And what process did you use to tin the
> board?
> 
> And what brand/model solder was it?  Those joints are beautiful, no ugly
> residue from rosin.
> 
> Robert
>
> la part de derekhawkins
> 
> The board was tinned with plumber's solder paste, after that it was
> just a soldering iron and .015" solder from Radio Shack of all places.
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Through plating - double sided

2006-04-11 by Jacques Meunier

Hello

i disagree for solder quality, very bad work. Cold solder, not enough solder, solder joint missing (lower side of the 2K2 resistor near the tantalum capacitor, left side of the board)

need a serious "touch-up" work before leaving factory

but photo quality is perfect. 

regards

Jacques
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: derekhawkins 
  To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:04 PM
  Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Through plating - double sided


  >What brand soldering paste?  And what process did you use to tin
  >the board?

  Search these archives on >plumber's solder paste<, discussion goes back 
  to around August 15, 2005. 

  >And what brand/model solder was it?  Those joints are beautiful, no 
  >ugly residue from rosin.

  Radio Shack, any rosin core solder should do, just use a toothbrush and 
  mineral spirits to clean off the residue.

  --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Robert Hedan <robert.hedan@...> 
  wrote:
  >


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Using an Epson R300 to make PCBs

2006-04-11 by Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
...
> HPs even need conductive ink to heat it in their bubblejet heads i
think.
> 

No, they use a tiny resistive element.

Steve Greenfield

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Using an Epson R300 to make PCBs

2006-04-11 by Alan King

Stefan Trethan wrote:

>
>
>There's no way on earth paraffin will go through the epson printhead. How  
>would you keep the plastic parts hot enough to even keep it liquid?
>
>HPs even need conductive ink to heat it in their bubblejet heads i think.
>
>no way, just no way with wax....
>
>  
>
  Build the heater into the cart.  Paraffins melt in the 120-160 F 
range, well below many plastics.  Shouldn't be hard at all.  Even if the 
originals can't take the heat, there are so many clone carts that of 
course someone is using a higher temp plastic..

  Problem is the technology divide.  Epson has the mechanical piezo 
heads, which would likely be better for this.  But they're remote and 
permanent, would need seperate heat and aren't so easily replaced if 
something goes wrong.  HP has throwaway heads built into the cart, but 
IIRC they're resistive and use heat to move the ink, may not work well 
with an already higher temp liquid.  I need to see if I didn't throw 
away my Epson Stylus 800 yet, it'd be great to try with since it's a bit 
simpler being black only.  Still the seperate head but I won't care if 
it gets destroyed, that's if I didn't already toss it.

Alan

Re: Using an Epson R300 to make PCBs

2006-04-11 by Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alan King <alan@...> wrote:
>
> derekhawkins wrote:
> 
> >>I know for a fact that the R340/320/300M/300/220/200 ink (all the
> >>same) will not work on copper or brass.
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >I have a R320 and the ink works fine with Epson's transparencies. That 
> >ink doesn't clog the nozzles easily either, I'm yet to clean the heads 
> >yet and usage is like twice a month. There's an Ink and Paper 
> >  
> >
> 
>    Epson is notorious for wasting 30% of the ink for cleaning the 
> heads.  This printer cleans the heads on its own about every time it's 
> used, even only hours apart  The reason it's almost never necessary to 
> do a manual cleaning is because it does so many automatic ones.  
> Printers are super cheap for the manufacturing costs, carts only have 
> 13.5 grams of ink and cost a fortune.  It's also why the driver resets 
> to Epson Vivid every chance it gets, they make their money off the
inks..

And that's why I only use 3rd party bulk inks in mine...

There are wide format printers that can print directly onto non-coated
vinyl. They use a solvent ink and heat the vinyl. They say this opens
pores in the vinyl, but I wonder how much of this process is simply
that the solvent bites into the vinyl and the head evaporates it quickly.

Down side is you are looking at $20K or more minimum for such a
printer. Other side of this, is that many brands of these use Epson
print heads. However, you'd have to make sure the solvent ink doesn't
eat other parts of the printer such as the parking station and
head-cleaning squeegee.

I tried to get some samples of some of these inks, but they won't send
them to anyone but resellers. Since I have a digital photography
website, they think I'm trying to scam them when I say that, if they
work, I will be reselling them.

Steve Greenfield

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Using an Epson R300 to make PCBs

2006-04-11 by Stefan Trethan

On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 20:56:25 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> No, they use a tiny resistive element.
>
>
> Steve Greenfield


'k , that was something i suspected "back then" god knows why.
You are positive on that?

ST

Re: Using an Epson R300 to make PCBs

2006-04-11 by Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alan King <alan@...> wrote:
>

>   Build the heater into the cart.  Paraffins melt in the 120-160 F 
> range, well below many plastics.  Shouldn't be hard at all.  Even if
the 
> originals can't take the heat, there are so many clone carts that of 
> course someone is using a higher temp plastic..
> 
>   Problem is the technology divide.  Epson has the mechanical piezo 
> heads, which would likely be better for this.  But they're remote and 
> permanent, would need seperate heat and aren't so easily replaced if 
> something goes wrong. 

Another problem: viscousity of the wax. All inkjet printheads are
designed for water-thin ink.

> HP has throwaway heads built into the cart, but 
> IIRC they're resistive and use heat to move the ink, may not work well 
> with an already higher temp liquid.

No, HP won't work because bubblejets work by vaporizing some of the
water/alcohol in the ink to drive ink out the nozzle.

 I need to see if I didn't throw 
> away my Epson Stylus 800 yet, it'd be great to try with since it's a
bit 
> simpler being black only.  Still the seperate head but I won't care if 
> it gets destroyed, that's if I didn't already toss it.

Worth a try if you have the time and a printer to sacrifice. I suspect
the ultra tiny droplets of wax will cool too much to stick on the
short trip to the copper.

Inkjet ink is carefully formulated so it does not dry so fast that the
heads are always clogging, but must dry quickly enough so you can
handle the print immediately, and not continue to soak through the
paper fibers. Some of the ingredients in water based inkjet ink are
water, alcohol, and glycerine. The dye or pigment is a -very- small
percentage.

As far as solvent inkjet inks go, it's a wide open field... true
solvents, eco-solvents, etc. and more etc.

Hey, you know wax dissolves right into lighter fluid? Then the lighter
fluid can just evaporate away. Better do -that- printer testing
outside with a dry fire extinguisher handy.

Steve Greenfield

Re: Using an Epson R300 to make PCBs

2006-04-11 by Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 20:56:25 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:
> 
> > No, they use a tiny resistive element.
> >
> >
> > Steve Greenfield

> 'k , that was something i suspected "back then" god knows why.
> You are positive on that?

Google is your friend.

"In a bubble jet printer, tiny resistors create heat, and this heat
vaporizes ink to create a bubble. The expansion that creates the
bubble causes a droplet to form and eject from the print head."

"The first of these technologies is called the Thermal Bubble
technology. This technology is very popular and is used by well known
printer manufacturers such as Canon as well as Hewlett Packard and
several others. The thermal bubble technology is more popularly known
as the bubble jet technology. In Ink Jet printers that use the thermal
bubble technology small resistors are used to produce heat. The
purpose of creating this heat is so that it can vaporize the ink in
order to make a bubble. When this created bubble swells up, a specific
amount of the ink is forced out of a nozzle and is put on to the page
that is being printed on. As the bubbles bursts it has the effect of
creating a vacuum. This created vacuum serves a very important purpose
in the over all printing process. The vacuum pulls some more ink from
the ink cartridge and puts it in to the print head."

"The thermal drop on demand ink jet technology is very popular. Used
by HP, Canon and others, droplets of ink are forced out of the nozzle
by heating a resistor, which causes an air bubble to expand. When the
bubble collapses, the droplet breaks off and the system returns to its
original state."

Steve Greenfield

Comments onInkjet printing of PCB's

2006-04-11 by Mycroft2152

Inkjet printing is the latest "Holy Grail" for the
homebrew pcb maker. 

Inkjet print heads spit out the ink either through
small piezo pumps or by vaporizing a partion of the
ink solvent. The piezo pump is better.

The key is to find an "ink" that:

1. Flows through the filter screen in print head.
2. Does not clog the nozzles.
3. Dries slowly, preferably after the printing process
is completed.
4. Will 'wet out' and adhere to the copper.
5. Will give a thick enough coating to act as a
resist.
6. Can be post cured/dried for a durable resist during
the etching process.
7. Can be removed after etching.

Pigmented Ink is not suitible. The ink doesn't need to
be pigmented. Pigments are small particles that can
clog the screen. It's the binder in the inks that
holds it to the substrate. Speciality papers have  a
receptive binder on the surface of the paper.

Sublistatic inks. These are inks that transfer color
by vapor transfer, the ink is boiled off and the
substate accepts the color molecules. No binder is
involved.

Wax type inks need a high temp to lower the viscosity
to make it through the print heads. Heaters are built
into the delivery system.

UV cure inks are high solides, low solvent inks used
in industry to reduce air emmissions. That are cured
after printing, away from the printheads ;) These are
usually warmed up to lower the viscosity and make them
flow better.

The ideal ink is a water based (slow drying) clear or
transparent thin liquid, that can be "set" aftward by
heat or UV and can survive the etching process

Anything come to mind? 

How about the spray on photoresist? 

It can be thinned down with a suitible solvent. 
Dries slowly.
Post cured with UV. 
A thick coating is not needed to survive the exposing
and developing process.
A thin coating that is cured and directly etched is
all that is needed.

It's worth a try.

TANSTAAFL!

Myc


PS. Stefan, I'll send you my shipping address for the
printer. 






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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Using an Epson R300 to make PCBs

2006-04-11 by Alan King

Stefan Trethan wrote:

>On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 20:56:25 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>
>>No, they use a tiny resistive element.
>>
>>
>>Steve Greenfield
>>    
>>
>
>
>'k , that was something i suspected "back then" god knows why.
>You are positive on that?
>
>ST
>
>  
>
  Epson, HP, and Cannon are all different tech slightly, I think you're 
thinking Cannon Bubblejet not HP type.  Been a long time since I've 
refreshed on the Cannon tech but it's something more like what you 
described.  HP is just a resistor heater to vaporize and push out some 
ink, Epson is piezo-mechanical..  Cannon was first with a reliable one 
long before the others, but HP and Epson pretty much superceded them 
after getting it right.  HP's heads are reasonably cheap and easy to 
produce, that's how they're throw away on the cart.  Piezo-mechanical 
are much more expensive and why Epson's are on the printer.  Only reason 
their printers are even cheap is they make the money on the inks..  Even 
Epson high end inks aren't so terrible though if you buy the 500ml for 
the large plotters, just an $800 outlay for all colors and a hassle to 
split it up.  Their yellows are superior, there's a website on doing 
this and the difference is very notable, just not worth it for most 
people.  Their seperate cart price for 500 ml ends up being $2K or so, 
not bad for colored water.. :)

Alan

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Using an Epson R300 to make PCBs

2006-04-11 by Alan King

Steve wrote:

>
>Google is your friend.
>  
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inkjet_printer

  Wiki's also a pretty good shot, but probably one of the first links 
from Google anyway.  Problem is both are heavily weighted to current 
technology, pretty sure someone did use current through the ink to make 
the bubble early on, likely Cannon since they were well before the 
others with wide market inkjets like late 70's or early 80's.

Re: Using an Epson R300 to make PCBs

2006-04-11 by derekhawkins

>This printer cleans the heads on its own about every time it's
>used

All Epsons do to a certain extent IMO. There always seems to be a fuss 
and hubbub for sometime before they actually print after switching on. 
I only use the black ink, never printed anything in color using it, so 
I'm able to see how much ink is wasted on cleaning. It's not as bad as 
you seem to imply if I'm to trust the monitor.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alan King <alan@...> wrote:
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Using an Epson R300 to make PCBs

2006-04-11 by Stefan Trethan

Ah yes, but have you actually _seen_ the resistors (in a picture or for  
yourself).

'cause, if i rember right, i had a look with a 'scope back than and  
couldn't see anything between the gap of the apparent electrodes.

ST
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 21:24:01 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:

> Google is your friend.
>
>
> "In a bubble jet printer, tiny resistors create heat, and this heat
>
> vaporizes ink to create a bubble. The expansion that creates the
>
> bubble causes a droplet to form and eject from the print head."
>
>
> "The first of these technologies is called the Thermal Bubble
>
> technology. This technology is very popular and is used by well known
>
> printer manufacturers such as Canon as well as Hewlett Packard and
>
> several others. The thermal bubble technology is more popularly known
>
> as the bubble jet technology. In Ink Jet printers that use the thermal
>
> bubble technology small resistors are used to produce heat. The
>
> purpose of creating this heat is so that it can vaporize the ink in
>
> order to make a bubble. When this created bubble swells up, a specific
>
> amount of the ink is forced out of a nozzle and is put on to the page
>
> that is being printed on. As the bubbles bursts it has the effect of
>
> creating a vacuum. This created vacuum serves a very important purpose
>
> in the over all printing process. The vacuum pulls some more ink from
>
> the ink cartridge and puts it in to the print head."
>
>
> "The thermal drop on demand ink jet technology is very popular. Used
>
> by HP, Canon and others, droplets of ink are forced out of the nozzle
>
> by heating a resistor, which causes an air bubble to expand. When the
>
> bubble collapses, the droplet breaks off and the system returns to its
>
> original state."
>
>
> Steve Greenfield

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Comments onInkjet printing of PCB's

2006-04-11 by Alan King

>Anything come to mind? 
>
>How about the spray on photoresist? 
>
>It can be thinned down with a suitible solvent. 
>Dries slowly.
>Post cured with UV. 
>A thick coating is not needed to survive the exposing
>and developing process.
>A thin coating that is cured and directly etched is
>all that is needed.
>
>  
>

  Developing should only be needed for one side of the process.  Making 
sure to use the pos or neg resist so the printed and UV cured portion is 
the side that stays, then developer shouldn't be needed since there'll 
be no negative side left to remove.  There's UV cure loctite and other 
things to try too.  Worth a try right before paraffin, since that'll 
never come out easily lol..  Of course, this now makes 500,002 things to 
do..

Alan

PS I finally got my CNC back up and running for use, likely won't have 
time to document it much until after the convention in late May.  Have 
two sets of boards paid for but not sent in, gotta send something soon 
so may finish off the stepper controller and have 16 boards made up..

Re: Through plating - double sided

2006-04-11 by derekhawkins

>Cold solder, not enough solder,
>solder joint missing (lower side of the 2K2 resistor near the 
>tantalum capacitor, left side of the board)

Nonsense! Reflections, shadows and tricks of light. The joint you claim 
to be missing is very much there. You have to look carefully. 

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Jacques Meunier" 
<jacques.meunier@...> wrote:
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Using an Epson R300 to make PCBs

2006-04-11 by Stefan Trethan

On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 22:21:53 +0200, derekhawkins <eldata@...> wrote:

>
>
> All Epsons do to a certain extent IMO. There always seems to be a fuss
>
> and hubbub for sometime before they actually print after switching on.
>
> I only use the black ink, never printed anything in color using it, so
>
> I'm able to see how much ink is wasted on cleaning. It's not as bad as
>
> you seem to imply if I'm to trust the monitor.


Well, them epsons actually have a small vacuum pump actively sucking the  
ink out of the head in the cleaning position. (or was it sucking the money  
out of your pocket...)
Also, the "waste ink" disposal container is HUGE compared to hp. In there  
must fit many, many cartridges full of ink.

If you look at the outragous prices for wax-sticks for solid ink printers  
that all is harmless. I mean black for free and color prices just _insane_.

ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Using an Epson R300 to make PCBs

2006-04-11 by Codesuidae

derekhawkins wrote:
>  All Epsons [clean the heads every time it's used] to a certain extent
>  IMO. There always seems to be a fuss and hubbub for sometime before
>  they actually print after switching on. I only use the black ink,
>  never printed anything in color using it, so I'm able to see how much
>  ink is wasted on cleaning. It's not as bad as you seem to imply if
>  I'm to trust the monitor.

I don't know for sure how much ink it uses to clean the heads relative 
to how much it uses printing (may depend on how much ink is used per 
page), but it sure wastes a large volume of ink.  My Epson has a small 
peristaltic pump below the cleaning sponge that delivers the ink used in 
cleaning into a receptacle at the bottom of the printer.  The printer 
died young after consuming less than 10 ink refills and upon disassembly 
for salvage I found that the receptacle had quite a large quantity of 
gooey black ink in it.  Easily 8cc's in total.  Given that this was 
mostly-dehydrated and tar-like in consistency, I hate to think what 
percentage of the original liquid ink ended up down there.

Dave K

Re: Using an Epson R300 to make PCBs

2006-04-11 by Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Alan King <alan@...> wrote:
>
> Steve wrote:
> 
> >
> >Google is your friend.
> >  
> >
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inkjet_printer
> 
>   Wiki's also a pretty good shot, but probably one of the first links 
> from Google anyway.  Problem is both are heavily weighted to current 
> technology, pretty sure someone did use current through the ink to make 
> the bubble early on, likely Cannon since they were well before the 
> others with wide market inkjets like late 70's or early 80's.
>

That is very possible, however all current Canon printers use
resistive heating elements.

The problem with relying on the ink being conductive is that
conductivity is going to vary a lot from one color to another, and the
slightest change in the ink formulation is going to change the
conductivity.

Steve Greenfield

Re: Using an Epson R300 to make PCBs

2006-04-11 by Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> Ah yes, but have you actually _seen_ the resistors (in a picture or
for  
> yourself).
> 
> 'cause, if i rember right, i had a look with a 'scope back than and  
> couldn't see anything between the gap of the apparent electrodes.

Well, no, but I've never seen you but I am pretty sure you exist. ;')

Even the patents say there are resistive elements. I'm not sure what
you expect to see.  What power microscope? As I recall, you'd need an
electron microscope to make out the details of an IC well enough to
pick out single elements of the circuit.

From patent 4,532,530
"A carriage type, bubble jet ink printing system having improved
bubble generating resistors that operate more efficiently and consume
lower power, without sacrificing operating lifetimes. The resistor
material is heavily doped polycrystalline silicon which can be formed
on the same process lines with those for integrated circuits to reduce
equipment costs and achieve higher yields. Glass mesas thermally
isolate the active portion of the resistor from the silicon supporting
substrate and from the electrode connecting points, so that the
electrode connection points are maintained relatively cool during
operation. A thermally grown dielectric layer permits a thinner
electrical isolation layer between the resistor and its protective,
ink interfacing tantalum layer, thus increasing the thermal energy
transfer to the ink."


Same references to an Encad patent improvement on HP cartridges,
referencing resistive elements. Description sounds like you'd not
expect to be able to recognize the resistive elements.

Patent 5,646,660

Steve Greenfield

Re: Through plating - double sided

2006-04-11 by Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "derekhawkins" <eldata@...> wrote:
>
> >Cold solder, not enough solder,
> >solder joint missing (lower side of the 2K2 resistor near the 
> >tantalum capacitor, left side of the board)
> 
> Nonsense! Reflections, shadows and tricks of light. The joint you claim 
> to be missing is very much there. You have to look carefully. 
>

I agree. I can see things that could be taken as missing solder or bad
joints, but on close inspection are just reflections fooling the eye.

Steve Greenfield

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Using an Epson R300 to make PCBs

2006-04-11 by Stefan Trethan

On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 23:09:51 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:

> Well, no, but I've never seen you but I am pretty sure you exist. ;')


You never know, you never know...

Actually i have found a document describing printhead design specifically  
mentioning the one i looked at (black from HP 550C) and it does seem there  
are resistors allright.

I dunno with which 'scope i looked back then, but i remember just behind  
each nozzle there were two structures that looked like electrodes. Must  
have had some other purpose. I don't have the stuff any more so can't  
investigate.

ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Using an Epson R300 to make PCBs

2006-04-11 by Stefan Trethan

On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 23:09:51 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:

> Well, no, but I've never seen you but I am pretty sure you exist. ;')


You never know, you never know...

Actually i have found a document describing printhead design specifically
mentioning the one i looked at (black from HP 550C) and it does seem there
are resistors allright.

I dunno with which 'scope i looked back then, but i remember just behind
each nozzle there were two structures that looked like electrodes. Must
have had some other purpose. I don't have the stuff any more so can't
investigate.

ST


forgot url:

<http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/iel5/84/22266/01038836.pdf?tp=&arnumber=1038836&isnumber=22266>

Re: Using an Epson R300 to make PCBs

2006-04-11 by Steve

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>

> Actually i have found a document describing printhead design
specifically
> mentioning the one i looked at (black from HP 550C) and it does seem
there
> are resistors allright.
> 
> I dunno with which 'scope i looked back then, but i remember just behind
> each nozzle there were two structures that looked like electrodes. Must
> have had some other purpose. I don't have the stuff any more so can't
> investigate.
> 
> ST
> 
> 
> forgot url:
> 
>
<http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/iel5/84/22266/01038836.pdf?tp=&arnumber=1038836&isnumber=22266>
>

That's a members only link.

Steve Greenfield

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Using an Epson R300 to make PCBs

2006-04-11 by Stefan Trethan

On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 23:43:08 +0200, Steve <alienrelics@...> wrote:

> That's a members only link.
>
>
> Steve Greenfield


hmm, did load allright here, i went via google.
isn't that important, it says there are resistive heaters...

ST

Re: Using an Epson R300 to make PCBs

2006-04-12 by fenrir_co

> 
> I don't know for sure how much ink it uses to clean the heads 
>relative 
> to how much it uses printing (may depend on how much ink is used per 
> page), but it sure wastes a large volume of ink.  My Epson has a 
>small 
> peristaltic pump below the cleaning sponge that delivers the ink 
>used in 
> cleaning into a receptacle at the bottom of the printer.  The 
>printer 
> died young after consuming less than 10 ink refills and upon 
>disassembly 
> for salvage I found that the receptacle had quite a large quantity 
>of 
> gooey black ink in it.  Easily 8cc's in total.  Given that this was 
> mostly-dehydrated and tar-like in consistency, I hate to think what 
> percentage of the original liquid ink ended up down there.
> 
> Dave K

Ten refills isn't bad, my Epson R340 died in 3 months and I hadn't 
even finished the original set of cartridges. I /finally/ got the 
thing replaced this week (if it breaks again I'm going to use a 
sledgehammer on it and buy a Canon which I can modify to do CD 
printing). 

Off-topic but very useful information if you already own one of these 
printers: If you have an Epson R-series printer, there's a trap-door 
on the back held on by a single screw. You should open this, and find 
the clear vinyl tube that routes the waste ink to the base of the 
printer. It's got a green stripe on it. The loose end will be pointing 
towards the middle of the printer - be careful not to pull the other 
end off the print-head assembly - point it out the back of the 
printer, and put a cup or something underneath it. There is a program 
called the SSC Service Utility that will allow you to reset the waste 
ink tank counter, which you should do monthly, which will prevent the 
printer from 'shutting down' and requiring an Epson tech to unlock it.

More info can be found here.

http://www.stevesforums.com/forums/view_topic.php?id=51595&forum_id=40

The initial head priming of the replacement R340 took 10 ml of ink - 
that's nearly an /entire/ cartridge worth of ink. This is necessary, 
however, to purge the 'blank' fluid that keeps the printhead from 
drying out while it's in storage. To avoid it cleaning the head all 
the time, you need to leave the printer on unless you are not going to 
use it for an extended period of time. It does a cleaning cycle 
with every power on. The R-series are far less likely to clog than the 
C-series. You can also modify a C-series printer like this, but it 
requires popping the right side of the printer case off or carefully 
cutting a hole in the back of it. C-series should be run constantly, 
or the Durabrite ink will definitely clog the printhead, even with the 
continual cleaning cycles - run a search through comp.periphs.printers 
and you'll see over half the complaints are of a Epson C printer 
getting jammed up.

I still think the Durabrite ink might be able to print on metal, and 
you should be able to trick the R200/300 into using it with swapped 
chips, since the printhead is pretty much the same thing, except 
6-color instead of 4-color. Not something I'd be trying on my own 
since the only reason I bought it is for the CD printing, before I 
found out that Canons can do it too.

Through plating - double sided

2006-04-12 by Herbert E. Plett

sorry, this thread went totally off-topic.

I didn't mean to discuss the quality of solder, but on how you guys solve the
DIY through plating.

In the (nice) pictures I see a connector that on 'one' side has not all of the
pins with traces coming from them and on the 'other' side I can see the white
plastic base of the connector with traces coming out of and I assume they go to
the connector pin. If you have no plate-through, how is the connection done?
The same question for the pots on the upper border?

How do you go from 'one' side to the 'other' ?

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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Through plating - double sided

2006-04-12 by JanRwl@AOL.COM

In a message dated 4/11/2006 1:28:25 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
KM6VV@... writes:

I hope  that wasn't ACID paste! 


Alan:  "Plumber's Solder Paste" is PROBABLY acidic, but  mainly, it is a 
"paste" made of tiny spheres of solder-metal.  It  melts/flows with usual 
soldering heat, and is "painted on" the bright metal  before heating.  If used to 
"tin" a bare copper surface, it is WASHED  OFF before electronic components and 
"rosin core" solder is  used!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Through plating - double sided

2006-04-12 by derekhawkins

>If you have no plate-through, how is the connection done?

This applies to connectors and pin headers.....One way to do 
it...First you normally solder the pins on the "solder side" then 
using a plias (or fine screw driver as a lever) you raise the molded 
plastic on the component side to expose the pads on that side and 
solder. Press the plastic back in place.

Another way....Press the pins sufficiently out of the plastic first 
then solder both sides using a pre-measured or estimated depth on 
the "solder side" then press the plastic back. 

>The same question for the pots on the upper border?

Had to resort to homebrew vias there.

>How do you go from 'one' side to the 'other' ?

Homebrew vias....Just a piece of bus wire (cut component 
lead...whatever) soldered between aligned pads on both sides. Plated 
holes are an unnecessary luxury in a homebrew scenario IMO. 
The "undrilled" board below is only 2" by 1.5" and all the square 
pads are "via pads" with matching pads on the other side. They are 
only .050" square and the drill bit is .032" so side-to-side 
alignment is critical. Another reason for the small size is that the 
cluster of four near the upper left hand corner are necessarily 
beneath a SMD component on the other side;

http://www.pbase.com/eldata/image/57044297/original

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Herbert E. Plett" 
<cachureos@...> wrote:
>

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Through plating - double sided

2006-04-12 by Alan Marconett

HI Jan,

I DO like the effect.  I really wouldn't want any acid residue left on the
board.  

I see the "tinning" process, but as it involves heat as you describe it,
then one must go over EACH trace in it's entirety to tin?

I'd really not want to subject the board to any unnecessary trace heading if
it could be avoided.

I was under the impression that some sort of plating of the tin could be
done; either by current or a chemical solution.  With current, it would seem
that a connection would have to be made to EACH trace, which might prove
difficult.

On through-hole pads, I've heard (but never used) that small eyelets can be
manually inserted in the holes, and then peaned over.  That would be a job!

Alan  KM6VV
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> > I hope  that wasn't ACID paste!
> 
> 
> Alan:  "Plumber's Solder Paste" is PROBABLY acidic, but  mainly, it is a
> "paste" made of tiny spheres of solder-metal.  It  melts/flows with usual
> soldering heat, and is "painted on" the bright metal  before heating.  If
> used to
> "tin" a bare copper surface, it is WASHED  OFF before electronic
> components and
> "rosin core" solder is  used!
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Through plating - double sided

2006-04-12 by Leon Heller

----- Original Message ----- 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Alan Marconett" <KM6VV@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 5:02 PM
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Through plating - double sided


> HI Jan,
>
> I DO like the effect.  I really wouldn't want any acid residue left on the
> board.
>
> I see the "tinning" process, but as it involves heat as you describe it,
> then one must go over EACH trace in it's entirety to tin?
>
> I'd really not want to subject the board to any unnecessary trace heading 
> if
> it could be avoided.
>
> I was under the impression that some sort of plating of the tin could be
> done; either by current or a chemical solution.  With current, it would 
> seem
> that a connection would have to be made to EACH trace, which might prove
> difficult.

There is a chemical tinning process that just involves immersing the board 
in a solution.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
leon.heller@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller 

---
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Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Through plating - double sided

2006-04-12 by John Popelish

Alan Marconett wrote:
(snip)
> On through-hole pads, I've heard (but never used) that small eyelets can be
> manually inserted in the holes, and then peaned over.  That would be a job!

I have seen a spring loaded trip punch type swaging tool that does 
this in a single push.  I don't think this site sells that type, but 
here are some eyelets.
http://www.solder.net/PCB/pcb_repairmaterials.asp

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Through plating - double sided

2006-04-12 by Alan Marconett

HI Leon,

That sounds much more desirable.  And for through-hole plating, I think I
recall that it requires some sort of "painting" (?) of a conductive material
inside the holes first doesn't it?  Graphite comes to mind, but I really
don't know for sure.  

The chemical tinning would be great!  I should have a URL somewhere about
just such a solution.

Alan  KM6VV
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> 
> > HI Jan,
> >
> > I DO like the effect.  I really wouldn't want any acid residue left on
> > the board.
> >
> > I see the "tinning" process, but as it involves heat as you describe it,
> > then one must go over EACH trace in it's entirety to tin?
> >
> > I'd really not want to subject the board to any unnecessary trace
> > heading if it could be avoided.
> >
> > I was under the impression that some sort of plating of the tin could be
> > done; either by current or a chemical solution.  With current, it would
> > seem
> > that a connection would have to be made to EACH trace, which might prove
> > difficult.
> 
> There is a chemical tinning process that just involves immersing the board
> in a solution.
> 
> Leon
> --
> Leon Heller, G1HSM
> leon.heller@...
> http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller
>

Re: Through plating - double sided

2006-04-12 by derekhawkins

>That sounds much more desirable. 

The merits and demerits associated with just about every known tinning 
method have been discussed extensively here and on Usenet. Suggest you 
do some research before making a decision.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Alan Marconett" <KM6VV@...> 
wrote:
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Through plating - double sided

2006-04-12 by Stefan Trethan

On Wed, 12 Apr 2006 18:02:12 +0200, Alan Marconett <KM6VV@...> wrote:

> HI Jan,
>
>
> I DO like the effect.  I really wouldn't want any acid residue left on  
> the
>
> board.

A few minutes earlier you pulled the PCB out of a very corrosive liquid  
that is designed to etch copper, it is not a problem if washed off.

> I see the "tinning" process, but as it involves heat as you describe it,
>
> then one must go over EACH trace in it's entirety to tin?
>

One would heat the whole board with hot air or in an oven.

>
> I'd really not want to subject the board to any unnecessary trace  
> heading if
>
> it could be avoided.

I can see why, but if there is no force put on it it really isn't damaging.

>
>
> I was under the impression that some sort of plating of the tin could be
>
> done; either by current or a chemical solution.  With current, it would  
> seem
>
> that a connection would have to be made to EACH trace, which might prove
>
> difficult.
>

Yes, electroless plating does not require current, but usually the  
chemicals are more expensive and a lot nastier.

ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Through plating - double sided

2006-04-12 by Leon Heller

----- Original Message ----- 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Alan Marconett" <KM6VV@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 5:41 PM
Subject: RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Through plating - double sided


> HI Leon,
>
> That sounds much more desirable.  And for through-hole plating, I think I
> recall that it requires some sort of "painting" (?) of a conductive 
> material
> inside the holes first doesn't it?  Graphite comes to mind, but I really
> don't know for sure.

PTH is very difficult to do at home. Some people have managed it, though.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
leon.heller@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Through plating - double sided

2006-04-12 by Stefan Trethan

On Wed, 12 Apr 2006 19:56:52 +0200, Leon Heller  
<leon.heller@...> wrote:

> PTH is very difficult to do at home. Some people have managed it, though.
>
>
> Leon


But looking at the prices for having it done these days i doubt it is at  
all possible to do it cheaper.

Time might be the driving factor though...


ST

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Through plating - double sided

2006-04-12 by Alan Marconett

Hi Stefan,

Thanks for the comments.  I'm not ready to do any of this yet, but I'm
collecting ideas that are being discussed.

My current goal is just be able to mill the isolation cuts on the boards!

Alan  KM6VV
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> > HI Jan,
> >
> >
> > I DO like the effect.  I really wouldn't want any acid residue left on
> > the
> >
> > board.
> 
> A few minutes earlier you pulled the PCB out of a very corrosive liquid
> that is designed to etch copper, it is not a problem if washed off.
> 
> > I see the "tinning" process, but as it involves heat as you describe it,
> >
> > then one must go over EACH trace in it's entirety to tin?
> >
> 
> One would heat the whole board with hot air or in an oven.
> 
> >
> > I'd really not want to subject the board to any unnecessary trace
> > heading if
> >
> > it could be avoided.
> 
> I can see why, but if there is no force put on it it really isn't
> damaging.
> 
> >
> >
> > I was under the impression that some sort of plating of the tin could be
> >
> > done; either by current or a chemical solution.  With current, it would
> > seem
> >
> > that a connection would have to be made to EACH trace, which might prove
> >
> > difficult.
> >
> 
> Yes, electroless plating does not require current, but usually the
> chemicals are more expensive and a lot nastier.
> 
> ST
> 
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Through plating - double sided

2006-04-12 by Stefan Trethan

On Wed, 12 Apr 2006 20:39:28 +0200, Alan Marconett <KM6VV@...> wrote:

> My current goal is just be able to mill the isolation cuts on the boards!
>
>
> Alan  KM6VV


If you mill your boards there should be nothing stopping you from plating  
the whole area beforehand, with a electroplating process, i think.

ST

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Through plating - double sided

2006-04-12 by Alan Marconett

HI Stefan,

Yes, that would work well.  This is the stuff I was trying to remember:

"   Cool-Amp- #1233-500 (silver plating powder)
Protects copper, brass and bronze against corrosion and maintains a highly
conductive surface.

EASY TO APPLY ON-THE-JOB !!!INSTRUCTIONS:

1. Clean surface with stainless steel wire brush

2. Wipe surface with clean dry cloth

3. Apply Cool-Amp powder with damp cloth

4. Rinse with clean water and rub dry with cloth 
"

http://www.cool-amp.com/New%20cool%20amp%20page.htm


I haven't tried it yet myself.

Expensive, so maybe it could also be applied over etched or milled traces,
to lower the amount of product needed.

Alan  KM6VV
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> If you mill your boards there should be nothing stopping you from plating
> the whole area beforehand, with a electroplating process, i think.
> 
> ST
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Through plating - double sided

2006-04-12 by Stefan Trethan

If you look in the archives you'll find a recepie for homemade "cool amp"  
silver plating.
The problem is some ingredient - silver something - is extremely expensive.

ST
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Wed, 12 Apr 2006 22:04:39 +0200, Alan Marconett <KM6VV@...> wrote:

> HI Stefan,
>
>
> Yes, that would work well.  This is the stuff I was trying to remember:
>
>
> "   Cool-Amp- #1233-500 (silver plating powder)
>
> Protects copper, brass and bronze against corrosion and maintains a  
> highly
>
> conductive surface.
>
>
> EASY TO APPLY ON-THE-JOB !!!INSTRUCTIONS:
>
>
> 1. Clean surface with stainless steel wire brush
>
>
> 2. Wipe surface with clean dry cloth
>
>
> 3. Apply Cool-Amp powder with damp cloth
>
>
> 4. Rinse with clean water and rub dry with cloth
>
> "
>
>
> http://www.cool-amp.com/New%20cool%20amp%20page.htm
>
>
>
> I haven't tried it yet myself.
>
>
> Expensive, so maybe it could also be applied over etched or milled  
> traces,
>
> to lower the amount of product needed.
>
>
> Alan  KM6VV

RE: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Through plating - double sided

2006-04-12 by Alan Marconett

HI Stefan,

I searched the archives, didn't find a recipe (no problem), but I did read
all the great posts on Cool-amp.  Probably where I first heard of it in '02!

The plumber's paste sounds useable as well.  I might try it, although I have
a few other uses for the pure silver plating as well.

Alan  KM6VV
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> If you look in the archives you'll find a recepie for homemade "cool amp"
> silver plating.
> The problem is some ingredient - silver something - is extremely
> expensive.
> 
> ST
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Through plating - double sided

2006-04-12 by Stefan Trethan

On Wed, 12 Apr 2006 23:28:03 +0200, Alan Marconett <KM6VV@...> wrote:

> HI Stefan,
>
>
> I searched the archives, didn't find a recipe (no problem), but I did  
> read
>
> all the great posts on Cool-amp.  Probably where I first heard of it in  
> '02!
>
>
> The plumber's paste sounds useable as well.  I might try it, although I  
> have
>
> a few other uses for the pure silver plating as well.
>
>
> Alan  KM6VV


below a copy of the post with the recepie.

I asked my chemicals shop for prices and they told me

25g Silberchlorid \ufffd 128,33
25g Silbernitrat \ufffd 98,44

so that's quite steep prices.
Now if there was a way to somehow create these chemicals out of something  
like silver coins or flatware that might be cheaper. Should you find  
something let me know.

Silver plating might not be so great anyway, since it tarnishes too.

ST



Did some reading, and found a german page that lists several plating and  
electroless plating recepies.

The relevant ones are:

Versilbern von Kupfer/Messing

(silver plating of copper/brass)

Zutaten:

(ingredients:)

10 g Silberchlorid

(10g silver chloride)

65 g Kaliumhydrogentartrat (=Weinstein)

(65g cream of tartar)

30 g Natriumchlorid (=Kochsalz)

(30g NaCl / table salt)

Wasser

(water)

Ansatz: Die Zutaten werden mit Wasser zu einem Brei anger\ufffdhrt.

(make-up: The ingredients are mixed to a paste.)

Hinweis: Die zu versilbernden Gegenst\ufffdnde werden damit abgerieben oder man  
l\ufffdsst den Brei darauf antrocknen. Mit Kreide wird
nachgeputzt.

(Notice: Rub the items to be plated with it or let the paste dry on them.  
Polish with chalk.



second recepie:



Versilbern verschiedener Metalle

Zutaten:

(Silvering of various metals, ingredients:)

10 g Silbernitrat

(10g silver nitrate)

3,3 g Natriumchlorid

(3.3g NaCl/table salt)

10 g Kaliumhydrogentartrat (=Weinstein)

(10g cream of tartar)

20 g Schl\ufffdmmkreide

(20g precipitate chalk (calcium carbonate))

87 g Wasser

(87g water)

50 g Salmiakgeist

(50g spirits of ammonia / ammonia solution)



Ansatz: Das Silbernitrat wird in etwas Wasser gel\ufffdst. Getrennt davon wird  
das Kochsalz in etwas Wasser gel\ufffdst. Man vereinigt beide
L\ufffdsungen und vermischt damit die restlichen Zutaten in einem M\ufffdrser.

(make-up: The silver-nitrate is solved in some water. Separate of it the  
table salt is solved in some water. Unite both and mix
with the remaining ingredients in a mortar.)

Hinweis: Die Mischung darf keinem hellen Licht ausgesetzt werden.

(Notice: This mixture mustn't be exposed to bright light.)

Zum Versilbern wird der metallene Gegenstand mit Salmiakgeist gereinigt  
und mit einem wollenen Lappen, der mit der Mischung
getr\ufffdnkt ist, gut gerieben, bis sich eine Silberschicht niedergeschlagen  
hat.

(To silver plate the item is cleaned with ammonia solution, and rubbed  
with a woolen rag saturated with the plating mixture until
a silver layer is deposited.)

Eiserne Gegenst\ufffdnde m\ufffdssen vor dem Versilbern erst kurz in eine  
Kupfersulfatl\ufffdsung getaucht werden.

(Items made of iron must be dipped in a copper suplhate solution before  
silver plating.)

  German instructions for those (and more) can be found at  
<http://\ufffdtzradierung.de/radierung/radihtm65.html>, translation courtesy of
  myself, no liability if i made a mistake


Notice the _impressive_ similarity with cool-amp, the silver compound,  
table salt, calcium carbonate, that's more or less it. Also,
  these are quite likely ancient recepies so there should be no legal  
issues like there would be when trying to copy cool-amp
specifically.


I'm quite eager to try those, i'll be at my chemicals shop next week for  
sure! The first one seems easier to me.


While i'm OK satisfied with the solderpaste results i'd be more than happy  
to find a cold method for silver plating.

I'll let you know about what i find.



ST

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Through plating - double sided

2006-04-12 by Stefan Trethan

On Wed, 12 Apr 2006 23:44:54 +0200, Stefan Trethan <stefan_trethan@...>  
wrote:

> I asked my chemicals shop for prices and they told me
>
>
> 25g Silberchlorid \ufffd 128,33
>
> 25g Silbernitrat \ufffd 98,44
>
>
> so that's quite steep prices.


just want to add i see 50g silver nitrate on ebay for 25eur, so that would  
not be so expensive, but due to the disadvantages of silver plating i  
don't really want to go there anyway i think...

ST

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