Homebrew PCBs

I'll give the brush solution a try tomorrow. As I purchase my boards pre
laminated with dry film, I'm sure cleanliness is not the issue, but
underdeveloped dry film resist probably is.

I do my developing in a tray with agitation too, looks like I'll need to set
up a simple to do spraying.

Thanks
Ron
----- Original Message -----

From: <twb8899@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 10:09 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Ferric Chloride


> Ron mentioned in a previous post that he was getting uneven etching
> with ferric chloride. When this happens it's usually due to under
> development of the photoresist. I am assuming that dry film resist is
> being used. The best way to develop dry film is with a spray tank set
> up with a 1% sodium carbonate (soda ash)solution. Find out how long
> it takes to "break through" to bare copper and then go about that
> same time again for final developing. For example if the bare copper
> shows up in 1 minute then continue the process for an additional 1
> minute and then you can etch.
>
> Another good idea is to make up a tray of weak etchant from a couple
> of ounces of ferric chloride in one gallon of water. If a developed
> board is put into this solution for a minute or so the areas that are
> fully developed will turn a dark color and the under developed spots
> will show bright copper. This will amaze you the first time you see
> it because the panel still has some dry film "scum" on the surface
> when the board looked like it was fully developed. If the board has
> scum, just put back in the developer for a bit longer and try again.
> When a uniform dark color appears across the entire surface you will
> be ready for final etching and obtain excellent results.
>
> If developemnt is being done in a tray, try using a very soft
> bristled brush to gently work the solution across the board surface.
> This will help to break through any scum on the board. The bottom
> line is that this scum must be removed or you will never obtain
> uniform etching. Hope this idea helps out.
>
> Tom
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

I once tried to built a bubble agitated developer but found the 
bubbles could not reliably remove the dry-film from the board. In the 
end I found best results using something similar to what Tom described 
  with the brush.
I also agree with Tom that you could be suffering dry-film residue, 
which is an invisible scum left behind after developing and is 
impermeable to the etchant. I am only familiar with negative dryfilm, 
are you sure the boards are this film or is it positive pre coated PCB 
material often sold at hobby shops ?
The way to check if you have a residue problem is after about 1 minute 
in the etchant you should see the copper turn matte pink. If it still 
shows shinny scrubbing marks then its dry-film scum. This happens when 
the dry film has been on the board longer than a few weeks. I have 
some stuff that's over a year old and is a problem to develop. The way 
to develop these boards is to extend the developing time (brushing 
over the board for upto 3 minutes). I put it in the etcher and if the 
copper doesn't become matte pink over the entire board then I take it 
back to the developer and brush over it for another minute. The second 
pass usually gets it all. I apply my own dry-film these days and 
develop the board the same day so I never have residue problems.

Ron Amundson wrote:

> I'll give the brush solution a try tomorrow. As I purchase my boards pre
> laminated with dry film, I'm sure cleanliness is not the issue, but
> underdeveloped dry film resist probably is.
> 
> I do my developing in a tray with agitation too, looks like I'll need to set
> up a simple to do spraying.
> 
> Thanks
> Ron
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <twb8899@...>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 10:09 AM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Ferric Chloride
> 
> 
> 
>>Ron mentioned in a previous post that he was getting uneven etching
>>with ferric chloride. When this happens it's usually due to under
>>development of the photoresist. I am assuming that dry film resist is
>>being used. The best way to develop dry film is with a spray tank set
>>up with a 1% sodium carbonate (soda ash)solution. Find out how long
>>it takes to "break through" to bare copper and then go about that
>>same time again for final developing. For example if the bare copper
>>shows up in 1 minute then continue the process for an additional 1
>>minute and then you can etch.
>>
>>Another good idea is to make up a tray of weak etchant from a couple
>>of ounces of ferric chloride in one gallon of water. If a developed
>>board is put into this solution for a minute or so the areas that are
>>fully developed will turn a dark color and the under developed spots
>>will show bright copper. This will amaze you the first time you see
>>it because the panel still has some dry film "scum" on the surface
>>when the board looked like it was fully developed. If the board has
>>scum, just put back in the developer for a bit longer and try again.
>>When a uniform dark color appears across the entire surface you will
>>be ready for final etching and obtain excellent results.
>>
>>If developemnt is being done in a tray, try using a very soft
>>bristled brush to gently work the solution across the board surface.
>>This will help to break through any scum on the board. The bottom
>>line is that this scum must be removed or you will never obtain
>>uniform etching. Hope this idea helps out.
>>
>>Tom
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>>
>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>
>>
>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
> 
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> 
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> 
>  
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
>

Its a dry film negative acting materal. Please see
http://www.kepro.com/cprecut.htm for details.

How do you apply your own dryfilm, do you have a laminator, and if so how
big.. I can only buy it in huge rolls, and I'm worried about its shelf life
expiring. Or are you indicating that the shelf life starts once its applied?

I like the idea of your concept of appying the film one day and processing
the boards the same day. It would alleviate lots of problems.

Thanks
Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Seychell" <adam_seychell@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 7:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Ferric Chloride


> I once tried to built a bubble agitated developer but found the
> bubbles could not reliably remove the dry-film from the board. In the
> end I found best results using something similar to what Tom described
>   with the brush.
> I also agree with Tom that you could be suffering dry-film residue,
> which is an invisible scum left behind after developing and is
> impermeable to the etchant. I am only familiar with negative dryfilm,
> are you sure the boards are this film or is it positive pre coated PCB
> material often sold at hobby shops ?
> The way to check if you have a residue problem is after about 1 minute
> in the etchant you should see the copper turn matte pink. If it still
> shows shinny scrubbing marks then its dry-film scum. This happens when
> the dry film has been on the board longer than a few weeks. I have
> some stuff that's over a year old and is a problem to develop. The way
> to develop these boards is to extend the developing time (brushing
> over the board for upto 3 minutes). I put it in the etcher and if the
> copper doesn't become matte pink over the entire board then I take it
> back to the developer and brush over it for another minute. The second
> pass usually gets it all. I apply my own dry-film these days and
> develop the board the same day so I never have residue problems.
>
> Ron Amundson wrote:
> > I'll give the brush solution a try tomorrow. As I purchase my boards pre
> > laminated with dry film, I'm sure cleanliness is not the issue, but
> > underdeveloped dry film resist probably is.
> >
> > I do my developing in a tray with agitation too, looks like I'll need to
set
> > up a simple to do spraying.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Ron
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <twb8899@...>
> > To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 10:09 AM
> > Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Ferric Chloride
> >
> >
> >
> >>Ron mentioned in a previous post that he was getting uneven etching
> >>with ferric chloride. When this happens it's usually due to under
> >>development of the photoresist. I am assuming that dry film resist is
> >>being used. The best way to develop dry film is with a spray tank set
> >>up with a 1% sodium carbonate (soda ash)solution. Find out how long
> >>it takes to "break through" to bare copper and then go about that
> >>same time again for final developing. For example if the bare copper
> >>shows up in 1 minute then continue the process for an additional 1
> >>minute and then you can etch.
> >>
> >>Another good idea is to make up a tray of weak etchant from a couple
> >>of ounces of ferric chloride in one gallon of water. If a developed
> >>board is put into this solution for a minute or so the areas that are
> >>fully developed will turn a dark color and the under developed spots
> >>will show bright copper. This will amaze you the first time you see
> >>it because the panel still has some dry film "scum" on the surface
> >>when the board looked like it was fully developed. If the board has
> >>scum, just put back in the developer for a bit longer and try again.
> >>When a uniform dark color appears across the entire surface you will
> >>be ready for final etching and obtain excellent results.
> >>
> >>If developemnt is being done in a tray, try using a very soft
> >>bristled brush to gently work the solution across the board surface.
> >>This will help to break through any scum on the board. The bottom
> >>line is that this scum must be removed or you will never obtain
> >>uniform etching. Hope this idea helps out.
> >>
> >>Tom
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> >>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> >>
> >>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >>Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>
> >
> >
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> >
> >
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Bookmarks and files:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Homebrew_PCBs-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

Has anyone been to Radio Shack lately looking for Ferric Chloride? I went there this weekend and the store doesn't have it in stock and the wearhouse is out.  Think there not stocking it anymore?

Any suggestions on where I can get ferric chloride locally?

Thanks,

John



      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "John Michaud" <greyfox1143@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 9:57 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Ferric Chloride


> Has anyone been to Radio Shack lately looking for Ferric Chloride? I went 
> there this weekend and the store doesn't have it in stock and the 
> wearhouse is out.  Think there not stocking it anymore?
>
> Any suggestions on where I can get ferric chloride locally?

Any electronic component supplier should have it, it'll probably be the 
crystalline form as it's easier to ship.

Leon
--
Leon Heller
Amateur radio call-sign G1HSM
Yaesu FT-817ND and FT-857D transceivers
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
leon355@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 4:57 PM, John Michaud <greyfox1143@...> wrote:

>   Has anyone been to Radio Shack lately looking for Ferric Chloride? I
> went there this weekend and the store doesn't have it in stock and the
> wearhouse is out. Think there not stocking it anymore?
>
> Any suggestions on where I can get ferric chloride locally?
>
> 
>



I usually get it dry from ebay or
http://www.mpja.com/prodinfo.asp?number=16384+DT

Not sure where local is, but if you are trying to avoid mail order, it's
also used as a deflocking agent, so maybe a chemical supplier for water
treatment would have some around.

-- 
carl
--------------------------------------------------------
Henry Carl Ott N2RVQ hcarlott@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 13:57:05 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>Has anyone been to Radio Shack lately looking for Ferric Chloride? I went there this weekend and the store doesn't have it in stock and the wearhouse is out.  Think there not stocking it anymore?

Depending on the store, you will be told that either 1) we stopped
carrying it; 2) we don't know what it is; 3) that's a catalog item;
and 4) what do you use it for?

Last I got was from JDR micro (IIRC) or Mouser.  Relatively quick
delivery from Mouser, but none of it is cheap.  Gallons are your best
prices.

Harvey

>
>Any suggestions on where I can get ferric chloride locally?
>
>Thanks,
>
>John
>
>
>
>      
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks - I'm in the Portland OR area - and ya the manager of that Radio Shack said check on Tuesday when they get there stock shipments.  But I had the impression they may not carry the product anymore.  Also I believe it was $6.99 for 16 oz

Thanks for the links everyone -

John

----- Original Message ----
From: Harvey White <madyn@...>
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 3:49:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Ferric Chloride


On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 13:57:05 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>Has anyone been to Radio Shack lately looking for Ferric Chloride? I went there this weekend and the store doesn't have it in stock and the wearhouse is out.  Think there not stocking it anymore?

Depending on the store, you will be told that either 1) we stopped
carrying it; 2) we don't know what it is; 3) that's a catalog item;
and 4) what do you use it for?

Last I got was from JDR micro (IIRC) or Mouser.  Relatively quick
delivery from Mouser, but none of it is cheap.  Gallons are your best
prices.

Harvey

>
>Any suggestions on where I can get ferric chloride locally?
>
>Thanks,
>
>John
>
>
>
> 
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    


      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 16:00:42 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

>Thanks - I'm in the Portland OR area - and ya the manager of that Radio Shack said check on Tuesday when they get there stock shipments.  But I had the impression they may not carry the product anymore.  Also I believe it was $6.99 for 16 oz

About right, IIRC.  If you can get it.  A gallon is about 30 dollars
from on line sources + about 8 dollars delivery.  A gallon has lasted
me about a year, so that's not all that much, amortized.  I am
considering HCl + H202....

Harvey

>
>Thanks for the links everyone -
>
>John
>
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: Harvey White <madyn@...>
>To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 3:49:48 PM
>Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Ferric Chloride
>
>
>On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 13:57:05 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:
>
>>Has anyone been to Radio Shack lately looking for Ferric Chloride? I went there this weekend and the store doesn't have it in stock and the wearhouse is out.  Think there not stocking it anymore?
>
>Depending on the store, you will be told that either 1) we stopped
>carrying it; 2) we don't know what it is; 3) that's a catalog item;
>and 4) what do you use it for?
>
>Last I got was from JDR micro (IIRC) or Mouser.  Relatively quick
>delivery from Mouser, but none of it is cheap.  Gallons are your best
>prices.
>
>Harvey
>
>>
>>Any suggestions on where I can get ferric chloride locally?
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>John
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>    
>
>
>      
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi John,
--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, John Michaud <greyfox1143@...> 
wrote:
>
> Thanks - I'm in the Portland OR area - and ya the manager of that 
Radio Shack said check on Tuesday when they get there stock shipments.  
But I had the impression they may not carry the product anymore.  Also 
I believe it was $6.99 for 16 oz

Try Frys in Wilsonville.  I bought a gallon there for around $25 a 
couple years ago.

Regards,
Dennis

Try All Electronics:  $6.25 for a quarter pound.

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/ER-3/DRY-CONCENTRATED-ETCHANT/-/1.html


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, John Michaud <greyfox1143@...>
wrote:
>
> Has anyone been to Radio Shack lately looking for Ferric Chloride? I
went there this weekend and the store doesn't have it in stock and the
wearhouse is out.  Think there not stocking it anymore?

> 
> Any suggestions on where I can get ferric chloride locally?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
>       
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

That is where I bought my etchant from. 

Just be aware that you need to be very careful mixing the dry etchant
with water. A lot of heat gets generated as you add it to water, so
add it very slowly. 

If you go this route, mix it outside, wear full face protection,
gloves and something to protect your clothes in case the mixture over
heats and sprays acid all over 

That did not happen to me, but I found the whole mixing process a
rather unpleasant experience. When I have to get  more etchant I will
order it premixed.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "bob_ledoux" <bobledoux@...> wrote:
>
> Try All Electronics:  $6.25 for a quarter pound.
> 
>
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/ER-3/DRY-CONCENTRATED-ETCHANT/-/1.html

> 
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, John Michaud <greyfox1143@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Has anyone been to Radio Shack lately looking for Ferric Chloride? I
> went there this weekend and the store doesn't have it in stock and the
> wearhouse is out.  Think there not stocking it anymore?
> > 
> > Any suggestions on where I can get ferric chloride locally?
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > John
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >       
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

I've been looking at the link a member share recently:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Stop-using-Ferric-Chloride-etchant!--A-better-etc/

What do you guys think of this?

Lee Studley <indigo_red@...> writes:
> http://www.instructables.com/id/Stop-using-Ferric-Chloride-etchant!--A-better-etc/

See also http://members.optusnet.com.au/~eseychell/PCB/etching_CuCl/

I've been trying to get set up to do this, but it seems that the
"starter etchant" has a short shelf life, so make it when you've got
boards to etch!  That way you convert it to a CuCl etchant before it
stops working as an HCl/H2O2 etchant.

> Has anyone been to Radio Shack lately looking for Ferric Chloride? I
went there this weekend and the store doesn't have it in stock and the
wearhouse is out.  Think there not stocking it anymore?
> 
> Any suggestions on where I can get ferric chloride locally?

Don't know where Local is, but you can get it thru Mouser 
www.mouser.com they carry the M G Chemicals.  However they don't stock
it anymore either at least not in the 4 liter/1 gal. size that I buy.
 They ship it from M G Chemicals warehouse.

I think Allied Electronics will do the same.

Ben

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, John Michaud <greyfox1143@...> 
wrote:
>
> Thanks - I'm in the Portland OR area - and ya the manager of that 
Radio Shack said check on Tuesday when they get there stock 
shipments.  But I had the impression they may not carry the product 
anymore.  Also I believe it was $6.99 for 16 oz
> 
> Thanks for the links everyone -
> 
> John
> 
If your near Beaverton stop in at Falk hardware on Cedar hills and 
pick up a gallon of Hydrochloric acid ~37% sold under the name 
Muratic acid  for $5. Then stop off at any drug store and buy a quart 
of 3% Hydrogen Peroxide for about $1. Add 2 parts Hydrogen peroxide 
to your etch tank first, then add 1 part Hydrocloric Acid last. You 
will not need to heat it, it creates it own, just add an air bubbler. 
This will etch your board in about 3 minutes. Its way CLEANER, 
CHEAPER, and FASTER than the brown stuff from Radio shack.

Before everyone jumps all over me. Hydrochloric acid is used by brick 
layers to clean brick work, and to clean concrete driveways, and its 
also used adjust pH in swimming pools. Yes, you have to be carefull 
because it is a STRONG acid. Wear eye and skin protection, and use in 
well ventilated area, you should be doing that anyway with the Ferric 
Chloride.

Once you give it a try, you'll never go back. 

Ron

> Before everyone jumps all over me. Hydrochloric acid is used by brick
> layers to clean brick work, and to clean concrete driveways, and its
> also used adjust pH in swimming pools. Yes, you have to be carefull
> because it is a STRONG acid. Wear eye and skin protection, and use in
> well ventilated area, you should be doing that anyway with the Ferric
> Chloride.

We find it hard to get such things in the UK, I looked at this last
year, as my FE was getting exhausted etc, still using Fe and will be
buying more at the york ham radio rally on the 6th, but only because I
cant find a way to buy anything else.

We just dont have chemical supply companies over here unless your a
business that needs them, or a dept of education/school

I can buy ''drive cleaner'' and it does have a strong eggy sulphur
type smell, but dont know really what it is.

Hell I'm off to the garden center to see whats in the stuff!

maybe I have found a source....

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Lez" <lez.briddon@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Ferric Chloride


>> Before everyone jumps all over me. Hydrochloric acid is used by brick
>> layers to clean brick work, and to clean concrete driveways, and its
>> also used adjust pH in swimming pools. Yes, you have to be carefull
>> because it is a STRONG acid. Wear eye and skin protection, and use in
>> well ventilated area, you should be doing that anyway with the Ferric
>> Chloride.
>
> We find it hard to get such things in the UK, I looked at this last
> year, as my FE was getting exhausted etc, still using Fe and will be
> buying more at the york ham radio rally on the 6th, but only because I
> cant find a way to buy anything else.

Most hardware shops sell HCl. You should look for "Spirit of salt", that's 
the usual name on the container.

Leon

Muriatic acid is another industrial name for HCl.



On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 7:17 AM, Leon <leon355@...> wrote:

>    ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lez" <lez.briddon@... <lez.briddon%40googlemail.com>>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>>
> Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 11:35 AM
> Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Ferric Chloride
>
> >> Before everyone jumps all over me. Hydrochloric acid is used by brick
> >> layers to clean brick work, and to clean concrete driveways, and its
> >> also used adjust pH in swimming pools. Yes, you have to be carefull
> >> because it is a STRONG acid. Wear eye and skin protection, and use in
> >> well ventilated area, you should be doing that anyway with the Ferric
> >> Chloride.
> >
> > We find it hard to get such things in the UK, I looked at this last
> > year, as my FE was getting exhausted etc, still using Fe and will be
> > buying more at the york ham radio rally on the 6th, but only because I
> > cant find a way to buy anything else.
>
> Most hardware shops sell HCl. You should look for "Spirit of salt", that's
> the usual name on the container.
>
> Leon
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

2008/6/26 Myc Holmes <mycroft2152y@...>:
> Muriatic acid is another industrial name for HCl.

And as most would not have a clue on that name, you would get some
very funny looks, in fact I had to look it up, not a common term on
this little island anymore.

>> Most hardware shops sell HCl. You should look for "Spirit of salt", that's
>> the usual name on the container.

Hardware stores started closing in the 80's, now for a ''hardware
store'' we have diy.com , and ''home base'' which sell paints and
laura ashley wallpaper, tools come from screwfix direct or toolmart.

If you want a simple nut and and a bolt you buy a bag of ten bolts for
$5 and the nuts in another bag...

I'm lucky, I actually know and live near a speciality nut and bolt and
screw shop, but they dont sell anything chemical.

We are now a country populated by consumers, very very few people
build anything here, unless its model planes/trains

sorry to generalise and if that upsets any other uk'ers, but its how I
see it where I live, if you live in a small village/farming area, you
may get a small hardware store, but i still dont think they would ever
sell chemicals other than cleaning products

I did manage to find some drain cleaner last year, one of the local
''anything for a £/$'' stores had some, it was american branded and
made in china........

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Myc Holmes" <mycroft2152y@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Ferric Chloride


> Muriatic acid is another industrial name for HCl.

It's not used in the UK.

Leon

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Lez" <lez.briddon@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 1:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Ferric Chloride


2008/6/26 Myc Holmes <mycroft2152y@...>:
> Muriatic acid is another industrial name for HCl.

And as most would not have a clue on that name, you would get some
very funny looks, in fact I had to look it up, not a common term on
this little island anymore.

>> Most hardware shops sell HCl. You should look for "Spirit of salt", 
>> that's
>> the usual name on the container.

Hardware stores started closing in the 80's, now for a ''hardware
store'' we have diy.com , and ''home base'' which sell paints and
laura ashley wallpaper, tools come from screwfix direct or toolmart.

I have two shops near where I live in St. Leonards which sell it.

Leon

On Thu, 26 Jun 2008, Leon wrote:
> Hardware stores started closing in the 80's, now for a ''hardware
> store'' we have diy.com , and ''home base'' which sell paints and
> laura ashley wallpaper, tools come from screwfix direct or toolmart.

In general, what kind of stores sell HCl? I can't find hardly any of the
fun chemicals you could buy in the 90s, no doubt due to the 'war on
terrah' or health and safety.

I've drawn a complete blank on HCl. We even have real hardware stores here
(there's two within walking distance from where I live). Would a builders'
merchant be a better bet?

-- 
Dylan Smith, Port St Mary, Isle of Man

Try a swimming pool supplier if you can find one.  They are all over the
place in Florida so it depends on where you live.

 

Building supplier would be another choice.  It is used for cleaning off
concrete.

Bertho

 

From: Dylan Smith    Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 10:22

In general, what kind of stores sell HCl? I can't find hardly any of the
fun chemicals you could buy in the 90s, no doubt due to the 'war on
terrah' or health and safety.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Dylan Smith" <dyls@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2008 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Ferric Chloride


> On Thu, 26 Jun 2008, Leon wrote:
>> Hardware stores started closing in the 80's, now for a ''hardware
>> store'' we have diy.com , and ''home base'' which sell paints and
>> laura ashley wallpaper, tools come from screwfix direct or toolmart.
>
> In general, what kind of stores sell HCl? I can't find hardly any of the
> fun chemicals you could buy in the 90s, no doubt due to the 'war on
> terrah' or health and safety.
>
> I've drawn a complete blank on HCl. We even have real hardware stores here
> (there's two within walking distance from where I live). Would a builders'
> merchant be a better bet?

The one near me sells both hardware and builder's stuff like plumbing 
supplies.

Leon

I had to check a couple of stores to find HCl - Wal-Mart and Home
Depot didn't have anything, but Lowes and True Value did (in both
cases, in the paint dept).  Only True Value had NaOH, in the kitchen
dept.  For sodium carbonate, I ended up getting some at a small Market
Basket because the big supermarkets didn't have it.

Dylan Smith wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Jun 2008, Leon wrote:
> 
> I've drawn a complete blank on HCl. We even have real hardware stores here
> (there's two within walking distance from where I live). Would a builders'
> merchant be a better bet?
> 

I'm in Australia and I've seen HCl (%33 wt/wt) sold at most building 
suppliers, or any place that sell cement. Its usually in 5L or 20L drums 
for brick cleaning/etching.

You may need to venture out of your domestic area and go somewhere more 
industrial. I'm lucky that I live in on the side of the city which is 
fairly close to a number of large industrial areas.

You best bet is to look through your local business directory and start 
phoning around. That how I've always sourced chemicals, those a lot more 
exotic than garden variety HCl.

On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 15:21:59 +0100 (BST), you wrote:

>On Thu, 26 Jun 2008, Leon wrote:
>> Hardware stores started closing in the 80's, now for a ''hardware
>> store'' we have diy.com , and ''home base'' which sell paints and
>> laura ashley wallpaper, tools come from screwfix direct or toolmart.
>
>In general, what kind of stores sell HCl? I can't find hardly any of the
>fun chemicals you could buy in the 90s, no doubt due to the 'war on
>terrah' or health and safety.
>
>I've drawn a complete blank on HCl. We even have real hardware stores here
>(there's two within walking distance from where I live). Would a builders'
>merchant be a better bet?

Builder's merchant.  Often used to clean concrete, pools (got to be a
big need where you are) and sidewalks.  

H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide), try a chemist, or any sort of beauty supply
store.  Concentrations vary wildly, so adjust the recipe.

Harvey (not in the U.K.)

> for brick cleaning/etching.
>

i dont think anywhere uk wise sells anything that strong without lots
of paperwork, if it could etch into brickwork etc, you would probably
need paperwork just to move it on the public road.

I tried biodiesel, if I got waste chip cooking fat from the
restaurant, I'd need paper work for waste transport....

UK has gone mad, anything to make a profit from the public, as all
bits of paperwork will cost money.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:

Greetings all, I am new here and have read a few posts on using 
hydrocloric acid instead of ferric chloride, I used ferric chloride 
from Radio Shack once or twice back in the '70s, I haven't etched a 
board since, is it safe to use hydrochloric acid on pcboards?, I 
purchased a galon a few years back and poured an ounce or two on 
concrete to make it porous and it ate it up, I gave the rest to a 
friend.
I'v been using perfboards to make my prototypes but it would be nice to 
make pcboards again, I was thinking of purchasing a cnc machine but 
they are pricey, I think Radio Shack is going to discontinue to sell 
ferric chloride.
What I purchased was Muriatic acid.

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Lez" <lez.briddon@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 3:35 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Ferric Chloride


>> for brick cleaning/etching.
>>
> 
> i dont think anywhere uk wise sells anything that strong without lots
> of paperwork, if it could etch into brickwork etc, you would probably
> need paperwork just to move it on the public road.

You don't need any paperwork.

Leon

Since the forum members are from all around the globe, chemical names and
purchasing requirements will vary from country to country.
so be aware of the laws in your area.

In the US, HCl is very available at hardware stores and pool supply
companies, while H2O2 (Hydrogen Peroxide) 3% is available at grocery stores
and drug stores. The more concentrated H2O2 30 and 40 volume) is available
at beauty supply stores. Note; you hust have a hairdresser's license to buy
the 40 volume.

Myc

On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 11:12 PM, Viper62 <viper62pr@...> wrote:

>   --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:
>
> Greetings all, I am new here and have read a few posts on using
> hydrocloric acid instead of ferric chloride, I used ferric chloride
> from Radio Shack once or twice back in the '70s, I haven't etched a
> board since, is it safe to use hydrochloric acid on pcboards?, I
> purchased a galon a few years back and poured an ounce or two on
> concrete to make it porous and it ate it up, I gave the rest to a
> friend.
> I'v been using perfboards to make my prototypes but it would be nice to
> make pcboards again, I was thinking of purchasing a cnc machine but
> they are pricey, I think Radio Shack is going to discontinue to sell
> ferric chloride.
> What I purchased was Muriatic acid.
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Myc Holmes" <mycroft2152y@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Ferric Chloride


> Since the forum members are from all around the globe, chemical names and
> purchasing requirements will vary from country to country.
> so be aware of the laws in your area.
>
> In the US, HCl is very available at hardware stores and pool supply
> companies, while H2O2 (Hydrogen Peroxide) 3% is available at grocery 
> stores
> and drug stores. The more concentrated H2O2 30 and 40 volume) is available
> at beauty supply stores. Note; you hust have a hairdresser's license to 
> buy
> the 40 volume.

Where I get my hair cut (unisex salon) I asked the lady doing my hair if 
they could buy some high-strength H2O2 for me. She said that they don't use 
it any more, it comes pre-mixed with the other stuff they use, and was I 
into bomb-making. She was joking, of course. You don't need a license to buy 
it in the UK, of course. I suppose if I ordered it from a chemical supplier 
together with acetone, the supplier might be suspicious and report me to the 
police. The (failed) bombers recently convicted here used H2O2 bought from a 
hairdessers' supplier.

Leon
--
Leon Heller
Amateur radio call-sign  G1HSM
Yaesu FT-817ND transceiver
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
leon355@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

Which is of course a highly likely combination someone making PCBs
might want. I'm sure i have bought those two chemicals together in the
past. Acetone is good for board cleaning, after all, and one of the
three chemicals i need for making PCBs.

ST

On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 1:47 PM, Leon <leon355@...> wrote:
> I suppose if I ordered it from a chemical supplier
> together with acetone, the supplier might be suspicious and report me to the
> police. The (failed) bombers recently convicted here used H2O2 bought from a
> hairdessers' supplier.
>
> Leon

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 2:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Ferric Chloride


> Which is of course a highly likely combination someone making PCBs
> might want. I'm sure i have bought those two chemicals together in the
> past. Acetone is good for board cleaning, after all, and one of the
> three chemicals i need for making PCBs.

I think you might have problems now.

I remember making acetone at school from alcohol, so I wouldn't need to buy 
it if I wanted to make bombs. The reaction did get out of control though, 
and all the glassware got blown out of the top of the flask together with a 
green fountain of alcohol, sulphuric acid, copper filings and acetone. The 
whole lot hit the ceiling and bits of glass, acid etc. rained down on us. 
The green stain was still there when I left a year later. 8-)

Leon

Actually i don't think i would have any problems where i buy
chemicals, but i'm certain there will be problems at some places, even
if one only buys H2O2 alone.
Of course it's also hard for the shops, if someone was to buy stuff
there and cause mayhem with it there would be much finger pointing, at
the very least.

As long as they stay reasonable, i would not have an issue with
providing ID and an explanation why i need it. But i am also certain
any such measure would be utterly ineffective since the criminals will
just use another substance. If they are prepared to die you can
imagine to what length they are prepared to go in order to get what
they want.

The problem is the authorities overreact, and many shop owners may
decide it's not worth the bother. As a result perfectly useful (and
cheap) chemicals will be even harder to come by. I'm sure that has
already happened in some places, especially the UK where it seems
chemicals were already difficult to come by before.

Personally i would recommend to try and find a specialist chemical
supplier. They see customers needing H2O2 for many different purposes
every day. If you go to the hairdressers supplier you are the odd
person without license who claims to need H2O2 for something weird, if
hairdresser suppliers and hairdressers are alike they will never be
able to understand your explanation.

ST

On 6/27/08, Leon <leon355@...> wrote:

> I think you might have problems now.
>
>  I remember making acetone at school from alcohol, so I wouldn't need to buy
>  it if I wanted to make bombs. The reaction did get out of control though,
>  and all the glassware got blown out of the top of the flask together with a
>  green fountain of alcohol, sulphuric acid, copper filings and acetone. The
>  whole lot hit the ceiling and bits of glass, acid etc. rained down on us.
>  The green stain was still there when I left a year later. 8-)
>
>
>  Leon
>

--- On Fri, 6/27/08, Viper62 <viper62pr@...> wrote:
...
> I'v been using perfboards to make my prototypes but it
> would be nice to 
> make pcboards again, I was thinking of purchasing a cnc
> machine but they are pricey, 

not anymore....
try
http://www.fireballcnc.com/

I'll second that! the Fireball CNC is a great machine.

Myc

On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 8:20 PM, Herbert E. Plett <cachureos@...>
wrote:

>   --- On Fri, 6/27/08, Viper62 <viper62pr@...<viper62pr%40yahoo.com>>
> wrote:
> ...
> > I'v been using perfboards to make my prototypes but it
> > would be nice to
> > make pcboards again, I was thinking of purchasing a cnc
> > machine but they are pricey,
>
> not anymore....
> try
> http://www.fireballcnc.com/
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Wow, I thought they were a lot more expensive, can it do SOIC and small SMD packages, most manufactures are switching over to SMD and some devices only come in SMD.
Thanks for the info on that CNC machine

--- On Sun, 6/29/08, Myc Holmes <mycroft2152y@...> wrote:

From: Myc Holmes <mycroft2152y@...>
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Ferric Chloride
To: Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, June 29, 2008, 8:08 AM






I'll second that! the Fireball CNC is a great machine.

Myc

On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 8:20 PM, Herbert E. Plett <cachureos@yahoo. com>
wrote:

> --- On Fri, 6/27/08, Viper62 <viper62pr@yahoo. com<viper62pr%40yahoo. com>>
> wrote:
> ...
> > I'v been using perfboards to make my prototypes but it
> > would be nice to
> > make pcboards again, I was thinking of purchasing a cnc
> > machine but they are pricey,
>
> not anymore....
> try
> http://www.fireball cnc.com/
>
> 
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 














      

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

depends on the spindle used...
a Dremel will hardly do


--- On Sun, 6/29/08, Viper62pr <viper62pr@...> wrote:

> Wow, I thought they were a lot more expensive, can it do
> SOIC and small SMD packages, most manufactures are
> switching over to SMD and some devices only come in SMD.
> Thanks for the info on that CNC machine

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Herbert E. Plett" 
<cachureos@...> wrote:millpcbs.com
>
> depends on the spindle used...
> a Dremel will hardly do
> 
> 
> --- On Sun, 6/29/08, Viper62pr <viper62pr@...> wrote:
> 
> > Wow, I thought they were a lot more expensive, can it do
> > SOIC and small SMD packages, most manufactures are
> > switching over to SMD and some devices only come in SMD.
> > Thanks for the info on that CNC machine
>

Take a look at millpcbs.com and you can see the type of work that 
can be done using a Fireball cnc.
   Jack

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "oerehak" <oerehak@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 2:48 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Ferric Chloride


> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Herbert E. Plett"
> <cachureos@...> wrote:millpcbs.com
>>
>> depends on the spindle used...
>> a Dremel will hardly do
>>
>>
>> --- On Sun, 6/29/08, Viper62pr <viper62pr@...> wrote:
>>
>> > Wow, I thought they were a lot more expensive, can it do
>> > SOIC and small SMD packages, most manufactures are
>> > switching over to SMD and some devices only come in SMD.
>> > Thanks for the info on that CNC machine
>>
>
> Take a look at millpcbs.com and you can see the type of work that
> can be done using a Fireball cnc.

I get much better results than that, cheaper and quicker, with photo-etch. 
8-)

Leon

Hi Leon,

I thought of you whiel in a pool supply store today. They had pallet loads
of gallon jugs ofHydrogen Peroxide 27%. the price was $6.99US per gallon.

Myc

On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 10:09 AM, Leon <leon355@...> wrote:

>    ----- Original Message -----
> From: "oerehak" <oerehak@... <oerehak%40yahoo.com>>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>>
> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 2:48 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Ferric Chloride
>
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com <Homebrew_PCBs%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "Herbert E. Plett"
> > <cachureos@...> wrote:millpcbs.com
> >>
> >> depends on the spindle used...
> >> a Dremel will hardly do
> >>
> >>
> >> --- On Sun, 6/29/08, Viper62pr <viper62pr@...> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Wow, I thought they were a lot more expensive, can it do
> >> > SOIC and small SMD packages, most manufactures are
> >> > switching over to SMD and some devices only come in SMD.
> >> > Thanks for the info on that CNC machine
> >>
> >
> > Take a look at millpcbs.com and you can see the type of work that
> > can be done using a Fireball cnc.
>
> I get much better results than that, cheaper and quicker, with photo-etch.
> 8-)
>
> Leon
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]