Homebrew PCBs

All:

After seeing all those posts on Eagle and its board size
limitations, I just thought I'd let people know that there
is an open source PCB program called KiCAD.  Here's the URL:

  <http://www.lis.inpg.fr/realise_au_lis/kicad/>

The short summary is:

  - Multi-platform -- Windows, Linux, etc.
  - Schematic Capture
  - PCB's up to 16 copper layers and no board size limits
  - Gerber viewer
  - An active (and growing) Yahoo support group

I haven't designed a board with it yet, but I've gone through
a tutorial and it does not seem to have any show stoppers for
me.

Enjoy,

-Wayne

gEDA is another GPL package under development.  I'll add it to the
database.  It's Linux; I took a look at it a couple of weeks ago, and
it is an ambitious project to provide a full CAD suite free of any
licensing restrictions whatsoever.  In its current state of
development, a lot of integration on the part of the user is required
to get it running.

The url is http://www.geda.seul.org/

Cheers,
Ted

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne C. Gramlich" <Yahoo@...>
wrote:

>
> All:
> 
> After seeing all those posts on Eagle and its board size
> limitations, I just thought I'd let people know that there
> is an open source PCB program called KiCAD.  Here's the URL:
> 
>   <http://www.lis.inpg.fr/realise_au_lis/kicad/>
> 
> The short summary is:
> 
>   - Multi-platform -- Windows, Linux, etc.
>   - Schematic Capture
>   - PCB's up to 16 copper layers and no board size limits
>   - Gerber viewer
>   - An active (and growing) Yahoo support group
> 
> I haven't designed a board with it yet, but I've gone through
> a tutorial and it does not seem to have any show stoppers for
> me.
> 
> Enjoy,
> 
> -Wayne
>

Hi Wayne!

Fancy meeting you here!  Although it's no surprise!

Yes, I think I may have been responsible for starting the thread on Eagle.
Funny, I think it was eagle that got me into this list when it was started.
Although that time I evidently was more interested in translating the Gerber
RS-274 files to Gcode then actually learning the schematic and layout
modules!  I did eventually get a module of my STEP4 controller program
written to import Gerber and generate Gcode (well, actually Vectors PLC
first).  

I'm just now getting back to PCBs; I'm on this 32 R/C servo board project
that just begs for a board.  I'm now exploring routing the power for the
board, and I've experimented with allowing Eagle to auto-route the board.
Interesting!

KICAD could be interesting, due to it's open-source!  However that would
mean ANOTHER project!

I got your Servo8 code translated into C, and had it running on a '452 demo
board that I use all the time.  But with the CAM interface and 9-bit
addressing mode, I haven't gotten to "command" the board.  I did manage to
set up some simple initialization values and send a servo or two to various
positions.

We hired an engineering tech for work, and HE has a 24-servo hexapod project
underway.  All the legs with their servos, and a round base!  He's working
on a PIC board to drive the servo using discrete servo chips, but expects to
abandon that in favor of a new design. 

Alan  KM6VV  

> 
> All:
> 
> After seeing all those posts on Eagle and its board size
> limitations, I just thought I'd let people know that there
> is an open source PCB program called KiCAD.  Here's the URL:
> 
>   <http://www.lis.inpg.fr/realise_au_lis/kicad/>
> 
> The short summary is:
> 
>   - Multi-platform -- Windows, Linux, etc.
>   - Schematic Capture
>   - PCB's up to 16 copper layers and no board size limits
>   - Gerber viewer
>   - An active (and growing) Yahoo support group
> 
> I haven't designed a board with it yet, but I've gone through
> a tutorial and it does not seem to have any show stoppers for
> me.
> 
> Enjoy,
> 
> -Wayne

Not specifically to Wayne.
  I have been using KiCAD now for a couple of months.  I'm currently
using it for a four layer PCI-104 board that uses an ADV202 J2K
compression chip to do the hard work.  It has a BlackFin 535P handling
the  PCI interface.
  My experience with KiCAD has been mainly positive (other than when I
mentioned it on this group).  It has some rough edges, but it is only
a few years old.  People are just starting to get it up and running as
an opensource/multiple developer project, so the burrs should be filed
off fairly soon.
  What I don't like about it: The component construction system is not
as clean as Eagle, which is already not as clean as DipTrace or
WinQCad.  You can not selectively grab a block of components and
traces and 'rubber-band' the connections to a new location.  
  I have not gotten it working as a project under VC++.NET, so I have
not broken anything trying to fix these issue yet.
  What I like:  Clearly, the price is right.  It handles 16 layers,
which has allowed me to build a 6 layer board and optimize it down to
4 layers.  It is unlimited size and pins (though a '104 board would
pretty much work in free Eagle).
  It does allow block moves, but any segment of trace with an end that
falls conpletely or partially within the block get moved completly,
but reappear as unconnected in ratsnest.  I much prefer Eagles
approach of violating DRC, but letting the connections remain intact.
  KiCAD is a multi-platform system, running on Windows, Linux and Mac.
 It uses an UI framework that handles all three OSs, so the interface
is not Windows specific.
I had fewer troubles learning how to use it than Eagle.  That could be
because it is easier, or it could be I have a better understanding of
the concepts.  Eagle was the first schematics and board layout program
I used.  I had to learn both what to do, and how to do it in Eagle. 
In KiCAD, I understand what I want to do, I just need to figure out
how to make KiCAD do it.
Hope this helps anyone trying to decide.
Richard

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "rmustakos" <rmustakos@...> wrote:
>
> Not specifically to Wayne.
>   I have been using KiCAD now for a couple of months.  I'm currently
> using it for a four layer PCI-104 board that uses an ADV202 J2K
> compression chip to do the hard work.  It has a BlackFin 535P
> handling the  PCI interface.
>   My experience with KiCAD has been mainly positive (other than
> when I mentioned it on this group).  It has some rough edges,
> but it is only a few years old.  People are just starting to
> get it up and running as an opensource/multiple developer project,
> so the burrs should be filed off fairly soon.
>   What I don't like about it: The component construction system
> is not as clean as Eagle, which is already not as clean as
> DipTrace or WinQCad.  You can not selectively grab a block of
> components and traces and 'rubber-band' the connections to a new
> location.  
>   I have not gotten it working as a project under VC++.NET,
> so I have not broken anything trying to fix these issue yet.
>   What I like:  Clearly, the price is right.  It handles 16
> layers, which has allowed me to build a 6 layer board and
> optimize it down to 4 layers.  It is unlimited size and pins
> (though a '104 board would pretty much work in free Eagle).
>   It does allow block moves, but any segment of trace with
> an end that falls conpletely or partially within the block
> get moved completly, but reappear as unconnected in ratsnest.
> I much prefer Eagles approach of violating DRC, but letting
> the connections remain intact.
>   KiCAD is a multi-platform system, running on Windows,
> Linux and Mac.
>  It uses an UI framework that handles all three OSs, so the
> interface is not Windows specific.
> I had fewer troubles learning how to use it than Eagle.
> That could be because it is easier, or it could be I have a
> better understanding of the concepts.  Eagle was the first 
>schematics and board layout program I used.  I had to learn
> both what to do, and how to do it in Eagle. 
> In KiCAD, I understand what I want to do, I just need to
> figure out how to make KiCAD do it.
> Hope this helps anyone trying to decide.
> Richard

Richard:

Thanks for the review.  It pretty much agrees with my
experience to date.

I'm hoping that the next board that I send out to Olimex
will be done with KiCAD.  There is still one remaining
"gotcha" issue that I have to resolve with KiCAD.  I need
to figure out how to cram multiple 1.25" x 2.50" mini-boards
onto a single 3.9" x 6.3" Eurocard board in KiCAD.  I'm sure
I'll figure it out.

If you are finding that you can't get your latest project
done using the free version of EagleCAD, you might want to
give KiCAD a look.

Later,

-Wayne

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne C. Gramlich" 
<Yahoo@...> wrote:
>
<snip> 
> 
> I'm hoping that the next board that I send out to Olimex
> will be done with KiCAD.  There is still one remaining
> "gotcha" issue that I have to resolve with KiCAD.  I need
> to figure out how to cram multiple 1.25" x 2.50" mini-boards
> onto a single 3.9" x 6.3" Eurocard board in KiCAD.  I'm sure
> I'll figure it out.
> 

Are these multiple copies of the same layout? If so, it's possible 
to manually edit the Gerber files to do an array of boards. I'll be 
posting a file (StepAndRepeat.zip) shortly with the applicable 
editing information.

Doesn't Olimex 'panelize' layouts onto their board sizes for free 
anyway?


Regards, Bob

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Wayne C. Gramlich" <Yahoo@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 8:31 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: KiCAD


[deleted]

> Richard:
>
> Thanks for the review.  It pretty much agrees with my
> experience to date.
>
> I'm hoping that the next board that I send out to Olimex
> will be done with KiCAD.  There is still one remaining
> "gotcha" issue that I have to resolve with KiCAD.  I need
> to figure out how to cram multiple 1.25" x 2.50" mini-boards
> onto a single 3.9" x 6.3" Eurocard board in KiCAD.  I'm sure
> I'll figure it out.
>
> If you are finding that you can't get your latest project
> done using the free version of EagleCAD, you might want to
> give KiCAD a look.

It might be easier to use GC-Prevue for that, I think it can do 
panelisation. The Pulsonix software I use has a nice step and repeat 
function for multiple copies of the same PCB on one board.

Leon

On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 11:41:34 +0100, Leon Heller  
<leon.heller@...> wrote:

> It might be easier to use GC-Prevue for that, I think it can do
>
> panelisation. The Pulsonix software I use has a nice step and repeat
>
> function for multiple copies of the same PCB on one board.
>
>
> Leon


Since it seems to be unlimited software why not simply copy it and paste  
it several times.
The "problems" coming from that if your software doesn't allow good signal  
management when copying should not matter if you store under a different  
filename.

Remember to leave the correct toolpath.

ST

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Bob_xyz" <bob_barr@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne C. Gramlich" 
> <Yahoo@> wrote:
> >
> <snip> 
> > 
> > I'm hoping that the next board that I send out to Olimex
> > will be done with KiCAD.  There is still one remaining
> > "gotcha" issue that I have to resolve with KiCAD.  I need
> > to figure out how to cram multiple 1.25" x 2.50" mini-boards
> > onto a single 3.9" x 6.3" Eurocard board in KiCAD.  I'm sure
> > I'll figure it out.
> > 
> 
> Are these multiple copies of the same layout?

No, in my case, each sub-panel is a separate project
that is different.  I will typically put 6-8 different
projects on the same panel.

> If so, it's possible 
> to manually edit the Gerber files to do an array of boards. I'll be 
> posting a file (StepAndRepeat.zip) shortly with the applicable 
> editing information.

I'm sure that will be useful.  If KiCAD does not privide a
way of panelizing different files, I'll have to write my own
little app. to do so.  RS274X (i.e. "Gerber" files) are
reasonably well documented and fairly easy to manipulate.
I'll post the request to the KiCAD group first, tho'.

> Doesn't Olimex 'panelize' layouts onto their board
> sizes for free anyway?

To the best of my knowledge, Olimex will only replicate
a single design.  I have historically always sent them
projects that were pre panelized.  They are perfectly happy
to chop the panels up into smaller pieces tho'.

Thanks,

-Wayne

Quick question for Kicad users...

How do I draw a trace - I can start it, but can't figure out how to 
make it go from point-to-point. I have tried right-click, middle-
click, left-click, enter, etc. and no matter what I try I can't seem 
to make a trace go anywhere.

I posted on their support group, however, being new, I have to wait 
for approval etc. so I am hoping one of you guys can answer it for me.

Thanks

chris

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Leon Heller" <leon.heller@...>
wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Wayne C. Gramlich" <Yahoo@...>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 8:31 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: KiCAD
> 
> 
> [deleted]
> 
> > Richard:
> >
> > Thanks for the review.  It pretty much agrees with my
> > experience to date.
> >
> > I'm hoping that the next board that I send out to Olimex
> > will be done with KiCAD.  There is still one remaining
> > "gotcha" issue that I have to resolve with KiCAD.  I need
> > to figure out how to cram multiple 1.25" x 2.50" mini-boards
> > onto a single 3.9" x 6.3" Eurocard board in KiCAD.  I'm sure
> > I'll figure it out.
> >
> > If you are finding that you can't get your latest project
> > done using the free version of EagleCAD, you might want to
> > give KiCAD a look.
> 
> It might be easier to use GC-Prevue for that, I think it can do 
> panelisation. The Pulsonix software I use has a nice step and repeat 
> function for multiple copies of the same PCB on one board.

Leon:

I'll give GC-Prevue a look see.  I think it is Windows only,
so I'll have to fire up my Windows partion to give it a try.
Since, I'm a Linux kind of guy, I tend to look for Linux
based solutions tho'.

Later,

-Wayne

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan"
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

[snip]

> Since it seems to be unlimited software why not simply copy
> it and paste it several times.  The "problems" coming from
> that if your software doesn't allow good signal management
> when copying should not matter if you store under a different  
> filename.

This is another reasonable idea.  I haven't found a way
for KiCAD to read in a board yet.  I've still got some
homework to go here.

-Wayne

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne C. Gramlich" 
<Yahoo@...> 
wrote:
<snip>
> 
> I'll give GC-Prevue a look see.  I think it is Windows only,
> so I'll have to fire up my Windows partion to give it a try.
> Since, I'm a Linux kind of guy, I tend to look for Linux
> based solutions tho'.
> 

There's an open source package called 'GerbMerge'. While I've never 
figured out exactly how to use it, it does look like it's a *very* 
flexible Gerber panelization program. 


http://claymore.engineer.gvsu.edu/~steriana/Python/gerbmerge/index.ht
ml


Regeards, Bob

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Bob_xyz" <bob_barr@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne C. Gramlich" 
[snip]

> There's an open source package called 'GerbMerge'. While I've never 
> figured out exactly how to use it, it does look like it's a *very* 
> flexible Gerber panelization program. 
> 
> <http://claymore.engineer.gvsu.edu/~steriana/Python/gerbmerge/index.html

Bob:

That is *exactly* what I want.  If it has problems eating
KiCAD output, I'll figure it out and send the patches back
to the author.

Thanks,

-Wayne

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne C. Gramlich" <Yahoo@...> 
wrote:
>
<snip>
> 
> Bob:
> 
> That is *exactly* what I want.  If it has problems eating
> KiCAD output, I'll figure it out and send the patches back
> to the author.
> 

Since GerbMerge works only with the Gerber files rather than with 
the KiCAD files themselves, it shouldn't matter which EDA package was 
used to generate the Gerber files.


Regards, Bob

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Bob_xyz" <bob_barr@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne C. Gramlich" <Yahoo@> 
> wrote:
> >
> <snip>
> > 
> > Bob:
> > 
> > That is *exactly* what I want.  If it has problems eating
> > KiCAD output, I'll figure it out and send the patches back
> > to the author.
> > 
> 
> Since GerbMerge works only with the Gerber files rather than with 
> the KiCAD files themselves, it shouldn't matter which EDA package
> was used to generate the Gerber files.

Bob:

I just had time to read the introductory documenation and it
says:

    GerbMerge currently works with:

        * CAM data generated by the Eagle circuit board
          design program, with "best effort" support for
          Orcad and PCB
        * Artwork in Gerber RS274-X format
        * Drill files in Excellon format

If I'm lucky, it will slurp up KiCAD output without any
problems.  Otherwise, I will have to find out what it does
not like, and fix it.  There are all sorts of little things
in RS274X that can trip up a program like this.  I'll give
it a try in a week or so and report back to the group.

-Wayne

>><http://claymore.engineer.gvsu.edu/~steriana/Python/gerbmerge/index.html
>>    
>>
>
>Bob:
>
>That is *exactly* what I want.  If it has problems eating
>KiCAD output, I'll figure it out and send the patches back
>to the author.
>
>  
>
http://www.superference.com/images/PCB/PCBpanel2.jpg
 
  Takes a little work to get everything installed and set up, but once 
you do it's fairly easy to use.  My boards are often irregular shaped 
and need manual placement, but I assume the auto works fine too if you 
mainly use rectangular boards.  Board updates then run gerbmerge then 
pull it into gcprevue ends up being fairly painless after you get the 
gerbmerge config file set up for the boards you want..
  While there's probably a ton of commands, I'd imagine just like HPGL 
most packages really only use a few for output to keep things simple, so 
likely you'll have it working without too much problem.  The secondary 
installs and config file setup for gerbmerge are likley to take more 
time, it's still kind of an in-development level tool.  Seems to work 
very well once it's running though.

Alan

Hi Wayne:
  
  I've been using Kicad for three weeks and just completed one project. I also had to penalize the boards.
  
  I exported them from Kicad as post script, opened in GSview, exported  as bit map, then opened in open office draw used copy and paste to  penalize. It sounds like a lot of work but after a few times it went  real fast.
  
  I really like Kicad, but I agree that the component editor needs work.
  
  Cheers
  
  Chuck

"Wayne C. Gramlich" <Yahoo@...> wrote:
Thanks for the review.  It pretty much agrees with my
experience to date.

I'm hoping that the next board that I send out to Olimex
will be done with KiCAD.  There is still one remaining
"gotcha" issue that I have to resolve with KiCAD.  I need
to figure out how to cram multiple 1.25" x 2.50" mini-boards
onto a single 3.9" x 6.3" Eurocard board in KiCAD.  I'm sure
I'll figure it out.
    
  



-Wayne





		
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I much prefer open-source *nix software.    So I'm very happy you
all brought this other CAD package to my attention.   Thanks.   I
will try it when I "outgrow" EAGLE.