Homebrew PCBs

I did a Google on "copper pour" Eagle and found this gem.  Here is a
good link that succintly identifies many of the odd user interface
aspects of Eagle (for example, "cut" in Eagle really means "copy" in
the rest of the computer software applications universe).

http://www.piclist.com/techref/com/cadsoftusa/notes.htm

Cheers,
Ted

The writer's description of the copper pour process is not completely
accurate.  He says to rip up the traces and let the autorouter work
while doing the pour.  I've never done it that way.  I do the pour
(polygon gnd) command *after* my board is completely routed...auto,
manual or a combination of both sometimes...and I've resized the
traces, etc.

Cheers,
Ted

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "kilocycles" <kilocycles@...> wrote:

>
> I did a Google on "copper pour" Eagle and found this gem.  Here is a
> good link that succintly identifies many of the odd user interface
> aspects of Eagle (for example, "cut" in Eagle really means "copy" in
> the rest of the computer software applications universe).
> 
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/com/cadsoftusa/notes.htm
> 
> Cheers,
> Ted
>

On Fri, 10 Mar 2006 17:33:29 +0100, kilocycles <kilocycles@...>  
wrote:

> The writer's description of the copper pour process is not completely
>
> accurate.  He says to rip up the traces and let the autorouter work
>
> while doing the pour.  I've never done it that way.  I do the pour
>
> (polygon gnd) command *after* my board is completely routed...auto,
>
> manual or a combination of both sometimes...and I've resized the
>
> traces, etc.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Ted


I would also say the copper pour must be the last step in the process. All  
traces are finished and the board is basically working before i add a  
copper pour.
This is for one or two layer boards, if you have more layers with  
dedicated ground and power planes you would not need to route ground  
traces beforehand.

I do not know the peculiarities of eagle, since the UI is way above what  
my nerves can take, but it should be the same principle.


By the way, anyone know advanced PCb layout pages/online courses/faqs/...  
please let us know.
Someone suggested that analog devices online seminar on PCB design a while  
ago, i watched it but thought it rather poor. The information i learned  
was minimal, and the speaker was really bad (maybe it has to do with the  
transfer/bandwidth limitations).
I do not know if this is in general a problem with analog courses, but the  
ones by national semi are great in comparision.

I would like to know more about design considerations concerning ground  
planes / copper pours especially.

ST

Ted, I'm very glad you found that page useful. I wrote it when I 
first tried to use Eagle and was so frustrated by simple little 
differences like the cut = copy thing that I figured there had to be 
a need for it and by writing it all down, it helped me remember as 
well.

Reguarding the pour process, please do note that piclist.com is a 
wiki (of sorts) and there is a form at the bottom of each page where 
you can add comments/corrections.


James Newton: PICList webmaster/Admin
mailto:jamesnewton@...  1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com/member/JMN-EFP-786
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com




--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "kilocycles" <kilocycles@...> 
wrote:
>
> The writer's description of the copper pour process is not 
completely
> accurate.  He says to rip up the traces and let the autorouter work
> while doing the pour.  I've never done it that way.  I do the pour
> (polygon gnd) command *after* my board is completely routed...auto,
> manual or a combination of both sometimes...and I've resized the
> traces, etc.
> 
> Cheers,
> Ted
> 
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "kilocycles" <kilocycles@> 
wrote:
> >
> > I did a Google on "copper pour" Eagle and found this gem.  Here 
is a
> > good link that succintly identifies many of the odd user 
interface
> > aspects of Eagle (for example, "cut" in Eagle really 
means "copy" in

> > the rest of the computer software applications universe).
> > 
> > http://www.piclist.com/techref/com/cadsoftusa/notes.htm
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > Ted
> >
>

>I would also say the copper pour must be the last step in the 
>process. All traces are finished and the board is basically working 
>before i add a copper pour.

Doesn't have to be with Eagle. By design, the pour doesn't exist when 
you load the saved board. A **repour** will only occur after you use 
the ratsnest command. For all intents and purposes a repour is like 
pouring for the first time. In other words nothing is written in 
stone (or copper).

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 10 Mar 2006 17:33:29 +0100, kilocycles <kilocycles@...>  
> wrote:
> 
> > The writer's description of the copper pour process is not 
completely
> >
> > accurate.  He says to rip up the traces and let the autorouter 
work
> >
> > while doing the pour.  I've never done it that way.  I do the pour
> >
> > (polygon gnd) command *after* my board is completely 
routed...auto,
> >
> > manual or a combination of both sometimes...and I've resized the
> >
> > traces, etc.
> >
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Ted
> 
> 
> I would also say the copper pour must be the last step in the 
process. All  
> traces are finished and the board is basically working before i add 
a  
> copper pour.
> This is for one or two layer boards, if you have more layers with  
> dedicated ground and power planes you would not need to route 
ground  
> traces beforehand.
> 
> I do not know the peculiarities of eagle, since the UI is way above 
what  
> my nerves can take, but it should be the same principle.
> 
> 
> By the way, anyone know advanced PCb layout pages/online 
courses/faqs/...  
> please let us know.
> Someone suggested that analog devices online seminar on PCB design 
a while  
> ago, i watched it but thought it rather poor. The information i 
learned  
> was minimal, and the speaker was really bad (maybe it has to do 
with the  
> transfer/bandwidth limitations).
> I do not know if this is in general a problem with analog courses, 
but the  
> ones by national semi are great in comparision.
> 
> I would like to know more about design considerations concerning 
ground  

> planes / copper pours especially.
> 
> ST
>

On Fri, 10 Mar 2006 18:21:05 +0100, derekhawkins <eldata@...> wrote:

> Doesn't have to be with Eagle. By design, the pour doesn't exist when
>
> you load the saved board. A **repour** will only occur after you use
>
> the ratsnest command. For all intents and purposes a repour is like
>
> pouring for the first time. In other words nothing is written in
>
> stone (or copper).
>


huh?

OK ;-), whatever...

(What does the ratsnest have to do with copper pour?)

ST

> huh?

Pours can be redone each time you open the board file for editing. If 
your CAD program doesn't have a similar means of redoing pours then 
it sucks frankly.

> What does the ratsnest have to do with copper pour?

The ratsnest tool in Eagle initiates polygon fills hence copper pours.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 10 Mar 2006 18:21:05 +0100, derekhawkins <eldata@...> wrote:
> 
> > Doesn't have to be with Eagle. By design, the pour doesn't exist 
when
> >
> > you load the saved board. A **repour** will only occur after you 
use
> >
> > the ratsnest command. For all intents and purposes a repour is 
like

> >
> > pouring for the first time. In other words nothing is written in
> >
> > stone (or copper).
> >
> 
> 
> huh?
> 
> OK ;-), whatever...
> 
> (What does the ratsnest have to do with copper pour?)
> 
> ST
>

On Fri, 10 Mar 2006 19:10:14 +0100, derekhawkins <eldata@...> wrote:

> Pours can be redone each time you open the board file for editing. If
>
> your CAD program doesn't have a similar means of redoing pours then
>
> it sucks frankly.


But why would i want to re-do it?

I do the copper pour once, and then it's there, and i'll store it. It'll  
still be there next time i open the file. I'll only re-do it if i do  
something like change board size, why would i want to re-do it more  
regularly?

I really don't get that part, i have heard it several times now that this  
happens in eagle, and i don't understand it.

thanks

ST

>But why would i want to re-do it?

**If** your CAD program has the tools to redo the pour then what you 
said below is meaningless which was the point of my reply to the same;

"I would also say the copper pour must be the last step in the 
process. All traces are finished and the board is basically working 
before i add a copper pour."

>I really don't get that part, i have heard it several times now 
>that this happens in eagle

It's quite possible that all relevant CAD programs cause a pour redo 
when the board opens...Something like a reset. Perhaps the only 
difference with Eagle is that by default the redo doesn't take place 
automatically allowing you to edit in unfilled space first if you so 
wish. Otherwise, there would have to be a command to rollback the 
pour. Neither here nor there IMO.



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 10 Mar 2006 19:10:14 +0100, derekhawkins <eldata@...> wrote:
> 
> > Pours can be redone each time you open the board file for 
editing. If
> >
> > your CAD program doesn't have a similar means of redoing pours 
then
> >
> > it sucks frankly.
> 
> 
> But why would i want to re-do it?
> 
> I do the copper pour once, and then it's there, and i'll store it. 
It'll  
> still be there next time i open the file. I'll only re-do it if i 
do  
> something like change board size, why would i want to re-do it 
more  
> regularly?
> 
> I really don't get that part, i have heard it several times now 
that this  

> happens in eagle, and i don't understand it.
> 
> thanks
> 
> ST
>

On Fri, 10 Mar 2006 20:17:11 +0100, derekhawkins <eldata@...> wrote:

> **If** your CAD program has the tools to redo the pour then what you
>
> said below is meaningless which was the point of my reply to the same;


I could do the pour first thing, but what would be the reason for doing  
that?
I still would need to route all signals, and having a colored area there  
in your work field is sort of distracting, and switching it invisible  
makes creating it first thing a bit unreasonable.

> It's quite possible that all relevant CAD programs cause a pour redo
>
> when the board opens...Something like a reset. Perhaps the only
>
> difference with Eagle is that by default the redo doesn't take place
>
> automatically allowing you to edit in unfilled space first if you so
>
> wish. Otherwise, there would have to be a command to rollback the
>
> pour. Neither here nor there IMO.


I would say all CAD programs cause a pour redo each time the display is  
refreshed, no?
For example, if you move a trace the pour must change to, or there will be  
shorts.

ST

>I could do the pour first thing, but what would be the reason for 
>doing that?

Do all Euros argue this way...LOL!

>For example, if you move a trace the pour must change to, or there 
>will be shorts.

And your first post suggested it would be the end of the world. 

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 10 Mar 2006 20:17:11 +0100, derekhawkins <eldata@...> wrote:
> 
> > **If** your CAD program has the tools to redo the pour then what 
you
> >
> > said below is meaningless which was the point of my reply to the 
same;
> 
> 
> I could do the pour first thing, but what would be the reason for 
doing  
> that?
> I still would need to route all signals, and having a colored area 
there  
> in your work field is sort of distracting, and switching it 
invisible  
> makes creating it first thing a bit unreasonable.
> 
> > It's quite possible that all relevant CAD programs cause a pour 
redo
> >
> > when the board opens...Something like a reset. Perhaps the only
> >
> > difference with Eagle is that by default the redo doesn't take 
place
> >
> > automatically allowing you to edit in unfilled space first if you 
so
> >
> > wish. Otherwise, there would have to be a command to rollback the
> >
> > pour. Neither here nor there IMO.
> 
> 
> I would say all CAD programs cause a pour redo each time the 
display is  
> refreshed, no?
> For example, if you move a trace the pour must change to, or there 
will be  

> shorts.
> 
> ST
>

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> (What does the ratsnest have to do with copper pour?)

I translate it my mind as "recalc", or similar to autocad's regen. Eagle 
does almost everything differently than everyone else. Why shouldn't pours 
be any different? :)