Homebrew PCBs

I have followed the suggestions of those more experienced then me in
  precleaning the pcb, and found that I 'must have' been doing
  something wrong.

  My first 2 boards were cleaned using the scotch brite pad and dish
  detergent and failed when I ran the board through the laminator.
  By failed, I mean the toner did not adhere to the board.  I had to
  repeat the cleaning/transfer 3-4 times before I got good adhesion.
  Wasted a lot of TTS paper that way.

  I recently ordered some pcb's from abcfab, and on on the EBay page
  describing the boards, Bill mentioned that there were a number of
  cleaning solutions that would clean the copper, and that the
  scotch brite scrub wasn't necessary.

  One of the cleaners mentioned was Tarn-X.  I went out and bought a
  new bottle (the bottle we had must have been 5-6 years old) and
  tried it on 4 boards last night.  I pre-washed the boards with soap
  and water using a cotton ball, dried with a paper towel then using a
  cotton ball soaked with Tarn-X , simply applied it to the the boards.
  I then washed off the boards with water only and dried them, laminated 
  them and after 5-6 passes through the laminator I dropped 
  the boards into cold tap water and, in 2-3 minutes, the paper floated
  off and there was no toner on the carrier at all (I use Pulsar TTS)
  and the boards were perfect.  I had a hard time believing it could
  be that easy.
  
  The boards from abcfab were not tarnished in any way so this may be
  why this worked so well.  Even so I did see a change in the color of
  the copper as I applied the Tarn-X.  I am so pleased with the
  results, I though I better pass it on.

  This Pulsar TTS paper, though somewhat expensive, is a dream to work
  with.  The paper floats off and does not require any work at all.  I
  have tried other medium but it is just too much work getting the
  paper layers off the toner. As I am only making boards for my own
  use, I find the Pulsar TTS is the way to go.  Using the Pulsar, 1
  minute etch method, I can go from printer to finished board in about
  15-20 minutes.  

  Good Transferring!

  Wayne

That's a good one! I can't find mentioned product here, so i tried 
similar stuff - tarnish remover - i found Cillit Bang in local 
store, tried on some old copper and it cleaned it perfectly! I will 
try transferring tomorrow to see how it works in real life, but for 
now thanks for info!

Paul


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Wayne Topa <linuxone@...> 
wrote:
>
>   I have followed the suggestions of those more experienced then 
me in
>   precleaning the pcb, and found that I 'must have' been doing
>   something wrong.
> 
>   My first 2 boards were cleaned using the scotch brite pad and 
dish
>   detergent and failed when I ran the board through the laminator.
>   By failed, I mean the toner did not adhere to the board.  I had 
to
>   repeat the cleaning/transfer 3-4 times before I got good 
adhesion.
>   Wasted a lot of TTS paper that way.
> 
>   I recently ordered some pcb's from abcfab, and on on the EBay 
page
>   describing the boards, Bill mentioned that there were a number of
>   cleaning solutions that would clean the copper, and that the
>   scotch brite scrub wasn't necessary.
> 
>   One of the cleaners mentioned was Tarn-X.  I went out and bought 
a
>   new bottle (the bottle we had must have been 5-6 years old) and
>   tried it on 4 boards last night.  I pre-washed the boards with 
soap
>   and water using a cotton ball, dried with a paper towel then 
using a
>   cotton ball soaked with Tarn-X , simply applied it to the the 
boards.
>   I then washed off the boards with water only and dried them, 
laminated 
>   them and after 5-6 passes through the laminator I dropped 
>   the boards into cold tap water and, in 2-3 minutes, the paper 
floated
>   off and there was no toner on the carrier at all (I use Pulsar 
TTS)
>   and the boards were perfect.  I had a hard time believing it 
could
>   be that easy.
>   
>   The boards from abcfab were not tarnished in any way so this may 
be
>   why this worked so well.  Even so I did see a change in the 
color of
>   the copper as I applied the Tarn-X.  I am so pleased with the
>   results, I though I better pass it on.
> 
>   This Pulsar TTS paper, though somewhat expensive, is a dream to 
work
>   with.  The paper floats off and does not require any work at 
all.  I
>   have tried other medium but it is just too much work getting the
>   paper layers off the toner. As I am only making boards for my own
>   use, I find the Pulsar TTS is the way to go.  Using the Pulsar, 1
>   minute etch method, I can go from printer to finished board in 
about

>   15-20 minutes.  
> 
>   Good Transferring!
> 
>   Wayne
>

protonceksleeperman(protoncek@...) is reported to have said:
> That's a good one! I can't find mentioned product here, so i tried 
> similar stuff - tarnish remover - i found Cillit Bang in local 
> store, tried on some old copper and it cleaned it perfectly! I will 
> try transferring tomorrow to see how it works in real life, but for 
> now thanks for info!
> 
> Paul

Sorry Paul, I should have mentioned the other cleaners he said would
work.

They are: Zap! and Restore4 (Home Depot?)

He ( Bill abcfab@...) states that
"These cleaners al return the copper to as new condition without
scratching and because they're all basically acids, they deep clean
the copper to get out gunk that may be located just below the surface.
Just be sure to rinse after cleaning and to dry with a clean towel 
so you don't leave water spots."

Hope you have as good luck as I did.

Wayne

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Wayne Topa <linuxone@...> wrote:
>
> protonceksleeperman(protoncek@...) is reported to have said:
> > That's a good one! I can't find mentioned product here, so i tried 
> > similar stuff - tarnish remover - i found Cillit Bang in local 
> > store, tried on some old copper and it cleaned it perfectly! I 
will 
> > try transferring tomorrow to see how it works in real life, but 
for 
> > now thanks for info!
> > 
> > Paul

Remember that many of these tarnish removal chemicals /also/ leave a 
'protective layer' in order to prevent the metal from tarnishing 
again. This can prevent adhesion - I'm surprised Tarn-X worked. I 
would reccomend wiping down with 91% isporopyl (Wal-mart has this) 
with Bounty's 'No Streak Glass Paper Towels', designed not to leave 
residue. Some paper towels will leave their own residue - I've found 
that Scott white shop rags on a roll leave a mess if used with 
acetone.

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Wayne Topa <linuxone@...> 
wrote:
>
> protonceksleeperman(protoncek@...) is reported to have said:
> > That's a good one! I can't find mentioned product here, so i 
tried 
> > similar stuff - tarnish remover - i found Cillit Bang in local 
> > store, tried on some old copper and it cleaned it perfectly! I 
will 
> > try transferring tomorrow to see how it works in real life, but 
for 
> > now thanks for info!
> > 
> > Paul
> 
> Sorry Paul, I should have mentioned the other cleaners he said 
would
> work.
> 
> They are: Zap! and Restore4 (Home Depot?)
> 
> He ( Bill abcfab@...) states that
> "These cleaners al return the copper to as new condition without
> scratching and because they're all basically acids, they deep clean
> the copper to get out gunk that may be located just below the 
surface.
> Just be sure to rinse after cleaning and to dry with a clean towel 
> so you don't leave water spots."
> 
> Hope you have as good luck as I did.
> 
> Wayne
>

no worries...i think that problem is in the country...i'm in Europe 
(slovenia) and so products here are totally different... but, i got 
the point ... namely getting some brass-copper-silver cleaner. I'll 
just get them a few and test them which one cleans best. They are 
still cheaper than paper :-)

Paul

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "protonceksleeperman" <protoncek@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 7:10 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Board cleaning trials


> That's a good one! I can't find mentioned product here, so i tried
> similar stuff - tarnish remover - i found Cillit Bang in local
> store, tried on some old copper and it cleaned it perfectly! I will
> try transferring tomorrow to see how it works in real life, but for
> now thanks for info!

That very irritating character in the Cillit Bang adverts demonstrates its 
cleaning power by dipping a copper coin in the stuff.

Leon 

---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility 
to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
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--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Leon Heller" 
<leon.heller@...> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "protonceksleeperman" <protoncek@...>
> To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 7:10 PM
> Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Board cleaning trials
> 
> 
> > That's a good one! I can't find mentioned product here, so i 
tried
> > similar stuff - tarnish remover - i found Cillit Bang in local
> > store, tried on some old copper and it cleaned it perfectly! I 
will
> > try transferring tomorrow to see how it works in real life, but 
for
> > now thanks for info!
> 
> That very irritating character in the Cillit Bang adverts 
demonstrates its 
> cleaning power by dipping a copper coin in the stuff.
> 
> Leon 
> 
I agree about that character...grrrr....but, i've had a piece of old 
board with very oxidized copper and it really work wonders!
It's just as a fenrir said...maybe it's a good idea to clean the 
board with alcohol or similar stuff.

Paul

In article <dtihah+2cnb@...>,
   protonceksleeperman <protoncek@...> wrote:

> no worries...i think that problem is in the country...i'm in Europe 
> (slovenia) and so products here are totally different... but, i got 
> the point ... namely getting some brass-copper-silver cleaner. I'll 
> just get them a few and test them which one cleans best. They are 
> still cheaper than paper :-)

Have you tried Coca-cola? You can yet that pretty well anywhere. It's the
Phosphoric acid content that does the trick!

fenrir_co(fenrir@...) is reported to have said:
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Wayne Topa <linuxone@...> wrote:
> >
> > protonceksleeperman(protoncek@...) is reported to have said:
> > > That's a good one! I can't find mentioned product here, so i tried 
> > > similar stuff - tarnish remover - i found Cillit Bang in local 
> > > store, tried on some old copper and it cleaned it perfectly! I 
> will 
> > > try transferring tomorrow to see how it works in real life, but 
> for 
> > > now thanks for info!
> > > 
> > > Paul
> 
> Remember that many of these tarnish removal chemicals /also/ leave a 
> 'protective layer' in order to prevent the metal from tarnishing 
> again. This can prevent adhesion - I'm surprised Tarn-X worked. I 
> would reccomend wiping down with 91% isporopyl (Wal-mart has this) 
> with Bounty's 'No Streak Glass Paper Towels', designed not to leave 
> residue. Some paper towels will leave their own residue - I've found 
> that Scott white shop rags on a roll leave a mess if used with 
> acetone.
I will add a 91% isporopyl to the list for my next board.

Thanks!

Wayne

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "lists" <stuart.winsor.lists@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 9:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Board cleaning trials


> In article <dtihah+2cnb@...>,
>   protonceksleeperman <protoncek@...> wrote:
> 
>> no worries...i think that problem is in the country...i'm in Europe 
>> (slovenia) and so products here are totally different... but, i got 
>> the point ... namely getting some brass-copper-silver cleaner. I'll 
>> just get them a few and test them which one cleans best. They are 
>> still cheaper than paper :-)
> 
> Have you tried Coca-cola? You can yet that pretty well anywhere. It's the
> Phosphoric acid content that does the trick!

It dissolves tooth enamel, as well!

Leon

I wonder what a "watered down", wiped on mix of the actual etchants 
would do in that regard?

I've also wondered at times, just how much effect the texture of the 
surface plays with the toner adhesion (ie: steel wool vs. emery cloth,
etc.)

Take Care

George

>   I recently ordered some pcb's from abcfab, and on on the EBay page
>   describing the boards, Bill mentioned that there were a number of
>   cleaning solutions that would clean the copper, and that the
>   scotch brite scrub wasn't necessary.
> 
>   One of the cleaners mentioned was Tarn-X.

Don't ask me how I discovered this (I don't remember), but the
commonly available (in the US anyway) "Scrub Free" soap scum remover
intended for cleaning bathroom showers, tubs and sinks cleans copper
even better than Tarn-X, is less expensive and might be something you
already have around the house (it DOES work great on soap scum, too).
 It's in one of those pump spray containers.  Its active ingredient is
the same one used in Tarn-X, sulfamic acid:

http://householdproducts.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/brands?tbl=chem&id=11&query=sulfamic

Strange that it's not listed on the above NIH list since it does
contain sulfamic acid according to the label. For some reason, it
cleans copper more evenly than Tarn-X (I have a bottle of Tarn-X that
I don't use any more) and just as easily (sounds like I work for
them... but I don't). I spray a good amount over the board and then
swirl it around with a paper towel.  After the copper is bright
(doesn't take long), I rinse the board with tap water, dry it and do a
final cleaning using 91% IPA.  Other products that claim to be "scrub
free" tub and sink cleaners might also contain sulfamic acid, but I
haven't checked.

WB

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "soffee83" <soffee83@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 3:02 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Board cleaning trials


>I wonder what a "watered down", wiped on mix of the actual etchants
> would do in that regard?
>
> I've also wondered at times, just how much effect the texture of the
> surface plays with the toner adhesion (ie: steel wool vs. emery cloth,
> etc.)

The usual test for cleanliness is to see if water wets the surface properly. 
When I used to use TT I rubbed the copper with a special block of rubbery 
abrasive compound. I've still got it and use it for cleaning PCB material 
before prototyping RF circuits using 'ugly' construction.

Leon

fwiw, here is the cleaning procedure that I have used
successfully
for over 20 years...

1)  Scrub board with the scour-side of 3M kitchen-sponge and
liquid dish-detergent.  Can't recall the 'grade' name of the
sponge
(they make 3), but it's the agressive one....has a 'scratchy'
feeling.

This step removes oils, greases, and debris.  Important first
step.


2)  Microetch board for 15-60 seconds in a weak solution of
sodium persulphate....or a weak sulfuric-peroxide solution works
very good also.

Ferric Chloride is not really suitable for this task.  By using
the
clear-solution etchants, one can see the color of the copper
change before your eyes; from the typical "orange" look, to the
true reddish color of 100% pure clean non-oxidized copper.

It happens in just a few seconds.  I generally swish the board
around a bit in a little plastic tray while watching it.

When it's obvious that the whole surface has been microetched
to pure reddish copper; I rinse, blow dry with an air-gun (100psi

from compressor tank), and take it right to the laminator for
applying dry-film resist.

I.e., don't let it sit around for 3 days and oxidize again.

I would think that this clean-then-microetch procedure would
work equally well for toner-transfer processes.  The microetch
-guarantees- a clean surface because it makes the old surface
go away!  <grin>
--
============================
Please do NOT add or "subscribe" my name to ANY lists/databases.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 08:52:54 +0100, Richard <metal@...> wrote:

>
>
> When it's obvious that the whole surface has been microetched
>
> to pure reddish copper; I rinse, blow dry with an air-gun (100psi
>
>
> from compressor tank), and take it right to the laminator for
>
> applying dry-film resist.


Just make sure it is oil-free air ;-)

I haven't found the microetch necessary for 100% reliable transfers, but  
it sure is a way to exclude cleaning errors if you have trouble.

ST

I've had 100% success with this process even with very tarnished boards:

1, Clean with Tarn-X

2. Scrub, both directions,under water, with 400 grit wet or dry paper.

3. Dry with cotton cloth (diaper).

4. Wipe with cotton swab damp with lacquer thinner.

5. Dry with cotton cloth (diaper).

6.  Apply toner transfer paper.


--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Wayne Topa <linuxone@...> wrote:
>
>   I have followed the suggestions of those more experienced then me in
>   precleaning the pcb, and found that I 'must have' been doing
>   something wrong.
> 
>   My first 2 boards were cleaned using the scotch brite pad and dish
>   detergent and failed when I ran the board through the laminator.
>   By failed, I mean the toner did not adhere to the board.  I had to
>   repeat the cleaning/transfer 3-4 times before I got good adhesion.
>   Wasted a lot of TTS paper that way.
> 
>   I recently ordered some pcb's from abcfab, and on on the EBay page
>   describing the boards, Bill mentioned that there were a number of
>   cleaning solutions that would clean the copper, and that the
>   scotch brite scrub wasn't necessary.
> 
>   One of the cleaners mentioned was Tarn-X.  I went out and bought a
>   new bottle (the bottle we had must have been 5-6 years old) and
>   tried it on 4 boards last night.  I pre-washed the boards with soap
>   and water using a cotton ball, dried with a paper towel then using a
>   cotton ball soaked with Tarn-X , simply applied it to the the boards.
>   I then washed off the boards with water only and dried them,
laminated 

>   them and after 5-6 passes through the laminator I dropped 
>   the boards into cold tap water and, in 2-3 minutes, the paper floated
>   off and there was no toner on the carrier at all (I use Pulsar TTS)
>   and the boards were perfect.  I had a hard time believing it could
>   be that easy.
>   
>   The boards from abcfab were not tarnished in any way so this may be
>   why this worked so well.  Even so I did see a change in the color of
>   the copper as I applied the Tarn-X.  I am so pleased with the
>   results, I though I better pass it on.
> 
>   This Pulsar TTS paper, though somewhat expensive, is a dream to work
>   with.  The paper floats off and does not require any work at all.  I
>   have tried other medium but it is just too much work getting the
>   paper layers off the toner. As I am only making boards for my own
>   use, I find the Pulsar TTS is the way to go.  Using the Pulsar, 1
>   minute etch method, I can go from printer to finished board in about
>   15-20 minutes.  
> 
>   Good Transferring!
> 
>   Wayne
>

Wyane,

I've been dying to try a copper cleaner like you did. It's sounds like
a great solution. Thanks for reporting the results.

Mike



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Wayne Topa <linuxone@...> wrote:
>
>   I have followed the suggestions of those more experienced then me in
>   precleaning the pcb, and found that I 'must have' been doing
>   something wrong.
> 
>   My first 2 boards were cleaned using the scotch brite pad and dish
>   detergent and failed when I ran the board through the laminator.
>   By failed, I mean the toner did not adhere to the board.  I had to
>   repeat the cleaning/transfer 3-4 times before I got good adhesion.
>   Wasted a lot of TTS paper that way.
> 
>   I recently ordered some pcb's from abcfab, and on on the EBay page
>   describing the boards, Bill mentioned that there were a number of
>   cleaning solutions that would clean the copper, and that the
>   scotch brite scrub wasn't necessary.
> 
>   One of the cleaners mentioned was Tarn-X.  I went out and bought a
>   new bottle (the bottle we had must have been 5-6 years old) and
>   tried it on 4 boards last night.  I pre-washed the boards with soap
>   and water using a cotton ball, dried with a paper towel then using a
>   cotton ball soaked with Tarn-X , simply applied it to the the boards.
>   I then washed off the boards with water only and dried them,
laminated 

>   them and after 5-6 passes through the laminator I dropped 
>   the boards into cold tap water and, in 2-3 minutes, the paper floated
>   off and there was no toner on the carrier at all (I use Pulsar TTS)
>   and the boards were perfect.  I had a hard time believing it could
>   be that easy.
>   
>   The boards from abcfab were not tarnished in any way so this may be
>   why this worked so well.  Even so I did see a change in the color of
>   the copper as I applied the Tarn-X.  I am so pleased with the
>   results, I though I better pass it on.
> 
>   This Pulsar TTS paper, though somewhat expensive, is a dream to work
>   with.  The paper floats off and does not require any work at all.  I
>   have tried other medium but it is just too much work getting the
>   paper layers off the toner. As I am only making boards for my own
>   use, I find the Pulsar TTS is the way to go.  Using the Pulsar, 1
>   minute etch method, I can go from printer to finished board in about
>   15-20 minutes.  
> 
>   Good Transferring!
> 
>   Wayne
>

wbblair3(wbblair3@...) is reported to have said:
> >   I recently ordered some pcb's from abcfab, and on on the EBay page
> >   describing the boards, Bill mentioned that there were a number of
> >   cleaning solutions that would clean the copper, and that the
> >   scotch brite scrub wasn't necessary.
> > 
> >   One of the cleaners mentioned was Tarn-X.
> 
> Don't ask me how I discovered this (I don't remember), but the
> commonly available (in the US anyway) "Scrub Free" soap scum remover
> intended for cleaning bathroom showers, tubs and sinks cleans copper
> even better than Tarn-X, is less expensive and might be something you
> already have around the house (it DOES work great on soap scum, too).
>  It's in one of those pump spray containers.  Its active ingredient is
> the same one used in Tarn-X, sulfamic acid:

Just found that we had 2 Scrub Free cleaners under the sink.  Neither
has sulfamic acid listed on the label, Tilex and one called Scrub
Free.

Took a 6" x 18" copper clad blank that had some blemishes and tried
each of the scrub free cleaners in a 4x6" strip.  Both did show a
change in the color of the copper but neither took out the blemishes.
Washed off the board and dried it, then tried Tarn-X.  That fully
cleaned the board and no blemishes remain.

I think the Tarn-X cost around $5.  The label says to use rubber
gloves (the scum cleaners don't) so for my money, I will stick to the
Tarn-X.  There should be enough in the bottle to last me for many many
boards.  Maybe if I could find a Scum Cleaner that 'does' list
sulfamic acid on the label it would work better then those that don't,
but Tarn-X is working so I'm happy.  

I do wonder if the other 2 cleaners that Bill mentioned, Zap! and
Restore4, might be better but so far, I have not been able to find
them.


Thanks for the tip WB.  It might help those overseas that don't have a
source for Tarn-X or the others.

Wayne

In article <000a01c63808$ed0c2dd0$0301a8c0@AZATHOTH>,
   Leon Heller <leon.heller@...> wrote:
> > Have you tried Coca-cola? You can yet that pretty well anywhere. It's
> > the Phosphoric acid content that does the trick!

> It dissolves tooth enamel, as well!

I know, that's why I rarely touch the stuff :-)

> Just found that we had 2 Scrub Free cleaners under the sink.  Neither
> has sulfamic acid listed on the label, Tilex and one called Scrub
> Free.
> 
> Took a 6" x 18" copper clad blank that had some blemishes and tried
> each of the scrub free cleaners in a 4x6" strip.  Both did show a
> change in the color of the copper but neither took out the blemishes.
> Washed off the board and dried it, then tried Tarn-X.  That fully
> cleaned the board and no blemishes remain.
> 
> I think the Tarn-X cost around $5.  The label says to use rubber
> gloves (the scum cleaners don't) so for my money, I will stick to the
> Tarn-X.  There should be enough in the bottle to last me for many many
> boards.  Maybe if I could find a Scum Cleaner that 'does' list
> sulfamic acid on the label it would work better then those that don't,
> but Tarn-X is working so I'm happy.  
> 
> I do wonder if the other 2 cleaners that Bill mentioned, Zap! and
> Restore4, might be better but so far, I have not been able to find
> them.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the tip WB.  It might help those overseas that don't have a
> source for Tarn-X or the others.
> 
> Wayne
>
I looked at the Household products database and found tarn-x is 3-5
sulfamic acid but also contains Thiourea which may help cleaning.I
found that Lime Away has < 11 percent sulfamic acid acording to the
MSDS sheet. Tried some on some BAD copper and all the dark brown areas
turned that nice reddish color you want. The black and green areas
appeared to clean up with some scrubbing. This stuff is readily
available. Assuming the sulfamic acid is what you want there is a
product called Aqua Mix Sulfamic Acid Crystals available at Lowes that
is a 99.5 percent pure sulfamic acid crystals. Don't know what it
costs yet. But Lime Away does work and it doesn't have a lot of exta
stuff in it you may not want.
Keith

On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 21:56:23 +0100, klmjr22 <keithlmartin@...>  
wrote:

> but also contains Thiourea which may help cleaning


and may get you a nice cancer too for all your troubles...

ST

klmjr22(keithlmartin@...) is reported to have said:
> 
> > Just found that we had 2 Scrub Free cleaners under the sink.  Neither
> > has sulfamic acid listed on the label, Tilex and one called Scrub
> > Free.
> > 
> > Took a 6" x 18" copper clad blank that had some blemishes and tried
> > each of the scrub free cleaners in a 4x6" strip.  Both did show a
> > change in the color of the copper but neither took out the blemishes.
> > Washed off the board and dried it, then tried Tarn-X.  That fully
> > cleaned the board and no blemishes remain.
> > 
> > I think the Tarn-X cost around $5.  The label says to use rubber
> > gloves (the scum cleaners don't) so for my money, I will stick to the
> > Tarn-X.  There should be enough in the bottle to last me for many many
> > boards.  Maybe if I could find a Scum Cleaner that 'does' list
> > sulfamic acid on the label it would work better then those that don't,
> > but Tarn-X is working so I'm happy.  
> > 
> > I do wonder if the other 2 cleaners that Bill mentioned, Zap! and
> > Restore4, might be better but so far, I have not been able to find
> > them.
> > 
> > 
> > Thanks for the tip WB.  It might help those overseas that don't have a
> > source for Tarn-X or the others.
> > 
> > Wayne
> >
> I looked at the Household products database and found tarn-x is 3-5
> sulfamic acid but also contains Thiourea which may help cleaning.I
> found that Lime Away has < 11 percent sulfamic acid acording to the
> MSDS sheet. Tried some on some BAD copper and all the dark brown areas
> turned that nice reddish color you want. The black and green areas
> appeared to clean up with some scrubbing. This stuff is readily
> available. Assuming the sulfamic acid is what you want there is a
> product called Aqua Mix Sulfamic Acid Crystals available at Lowes that
> is a 99.5 percent pure sulfamic acid crystals. Don't know what it
> costs yet. But Lime Away does work and it doesn't have a lot of exta
> stuff in it you may not want.
> Keith

Way to go Keith!

Lime Away would seem to be something to try.  "Aqua Mix Sulfamic Acid
Crystals" would seem, to me, to be a bit of overkill.  I'd have to get
a rubber suit as well as boots & gloves.  :-)

I'll get some lile away tomorrow and give it a ahot.

Thanks again!

Wayne

Anybody tried Coca Cola?  we used to clean the old aussie pennies with it 
and they had a reasonably high copper content.

Bill
----- Original Message ----- 

From: "klmjr22" <keithlmartin@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 7:56 AM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Board cleaning trials


>
>> Just found that we had 2 Scrub Free cleaners under the sink.  Neither
>> has sulfamic acid listed on the label, Tilex and one called Scrub
>> Free.
>>
>> Took a 6" x 18" copper clad blank that had some blemishes and tried
>> each of the scrub free cleaners in a 4x6" strip.  Both did show a
>> change in the color of the copper but neither took out the blemishes.
>> Washed off the board and dried it, then tried Tarn-X.  That fully
>> cleaned the board and no blemishes remain.
>>
>> I think the Tarn-X cost around $5.  The label says to use rubber
>> gloves (the scum cleaners don't) so for my money, I will stick to the
>> Tarn-X.  There should be enough in the bottle to last me for many many
>> boards.  Maybe if I could find a Scum Cleaner that 'does' list
>> sulfamic acid on the label it would work better then those that don't,
>> but Tarn-X is working so I'm happy.
>>
>> I do wonder if the other 2 cleaners that Bill mentioned, Zap! and
>> Restore4, might be better but so far, I have not been able to find
>> them.
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the tip WB.  It might help those overseas that don't have a
>> source for Tarn-X or the others.
>>
>> Wayne
>>
> I looked at the Household products database and found tarn-x is 3-5
> sulfamic acid but also contains Thiourea which may help cleaning.I
> found that Lime Away has < 11 percent sulfamic acid acording to the
> MSDS sheet. Tried some on some BAD copper and all the dark brown areas
> turned that nice reddish color you want. The black and green areas
> appeared to clean up with some scrubbing. This stuff is readily
> available. Assuming the sulfamic acid is what you want there is a
> product called Aqua Mix Sulfamic Acid Crystals available at Lowes that
> is a 99.5 percent pure sulfamic acid crystals. Don't know what it
> costs yet. But Lime Away does work and it doesn't have a lot of exta
> stuff in it you may not want.
> Keith
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and 
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Bill Maxwell" <wrmaxwell@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 11:26 AM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Board cleaning trials


> Anybody tried Coca Cola?  we used to clean the old aussie pennies with it
> and they had a reasonably high copper content.

HP Sauce works quite well, also. I can remember someone who sold a quack 
medecine for many years in Shepherds Bush Market, West London, who used to 
demonstrate the effect HP Sauce would have on one's innards by cleaning 
pennies with the stuff. I suppose it was the vinegar that did the cleaning. 
He wore a hearing aid when he got older, I always wondered why his 
miraculous liquid didn't cure his deafness, he claimed it cured everything 
else. 8-)

That was about 50 years ago, BTW. He'd get into trouble for that sort of 
thing these days.

Leon

No need to buy a fancy cleaner.    I used to clean pennies in a
mixture of vinegar and salt.    The proportions make little
difference.   The solution strips off all the copper oxide almost
instantly.    Any kind of vinegar.   Of course, you'll have to rinse
the board in water right after doing this.
Alan

On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 17:07:36 +0100, alan00463 <alan00463@...> wrote:

> No need to buy a fancy cleaner.    I used to clean pennies in a
>
> mixture of vinegar and salt.    The proportions make little
>
> difference.   The solution strips off all the copper oxide almost
>
> instantly.    Any kind of vinegar.   Of course, you'll have to rinse
>
> the board in water right after doing this.
>
> Alan


Ok, what i don't get here, why are you cleaning pennies? I mean, it  
doesn't really matter if they are dirty when you spend them, right?
What am i missing here?

ST

Could be a collector of historical pennies?



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Stefan Trethan" 
<stefan_trethan@...> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 17:07:36 +0100, alan00463 <alan00463@...> 
wrote:
> 
> > No need to buy a fancy cleaner.    I used to clean pennies in a
> >
> > mixture of vinegar and salt.    The proportions make little
> >
> > difference.   The solution strips off all the copper oxide almost
> >
> > instantly.    Any kind of vinegar.   Of course, you'll have to 
rinse
> >
> > the board in water right after doing this.
> >
> > Alan
> 
> 
> Ok, what i don't get here, why are you cleaning pennies? I mean, 
it  

> doesn't really matter if they are dirty when you spend them, right?
> What am i missing here?
> 
> ST
>

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "alan00463" <alan00463@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 4:07 PM
Subject: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Board cleaning trials


> No need to buy a fancy cleaner.    I used to clean pennies in a
> mixture of vinegar and salt.    The proportions make little
> difference.   The solution strips off all the copper oxide almost
> instantly.    Any kind of vinegar.   Of course, you'll have to rinse
> the board in water right after doing this.

That's probably why HP Sauce works so well, the ingredients include vinegar 
and salt. 8-)

Leon

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Stefan Trethan" <stefan_trethan@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 4:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: Board cleaning trials


> On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 17:07:36 +0100, alan00463 <alan00463@...> wrote:
>
>> No need to buy a fancy cleaner.    I used to clean pennies in a
>>
>> mixture of vinegar and salt.    The proportions make little
>>
>> difference.   The solution strips off all the copper oxide almost
>>
>> instantly.    Any kind of vinegar.   Of course, you'll have to rinse
>>
>> the board in water right after doing this.
>>
>> Alan
>
>
> Ok, what i don't get here, why are you cleaning pennies? I mean, it
> doesn't really matter if they are dirty when you spend them, right?
> What am i missing here?

It's the sort of thing I used to do when I was about 10 years old. At school 
we used to rub them with mercury to make them look like half-crowns - 25 x 
as much. We got a bus conductor to take one, once. We told him what we'd 
done before he gave us our change, he was rather angry.

Leon

> I looked at the Household products database and found tarn-x is 3-5
> sulfamic acid but also contains Thiourea which may help cleaning.I
> found that Lime Away has < 11 percent sulfamic acid acording to the
> MSDS sheet. Tried some on some BAD copper and all the dark brown areas
> turned that nice reddish color you want. The black and green areas
> appeared to clean up with some scrubbing. This stuff is readily
> available. Assuming the sulfamic acid is what you want there is a
> product called Aqua Mix Sulfamic Acid Crystals available at Lowes that
> is a 99.5 percent pure sulfamic acid crystals. Don't know what it
> costs yet. But Lime Away does work and it doesn't have a lot of exta
> stuff in it you may not want.
> Keith

That NIH link:

http://householdproducts.nlm.nih.gov/

is pretty useful (for those in the US anyway since the brands listed
are US brands) when one wants to find a substitute for a product once
the active ingredient is known.  Thanks for actually taking the time
to go to it.  As I mentioned in my previous message, I found it
strange that Scrub Free wasn't listed with the other products in the
sulfamic acid listing.  Perhaps they've changed the formulation
considering that they apparently don't list sulfamic acid on the label
any more.  Too bad, since the stuff I have cleans PCBs quickly, evenly
and effortlessly but the bottle has only about 1/3 of its contents
remaining.  BTW, I used to use Lime Away for soap scum removal, but
moved to Scrub Free because it smelled better!  Now I may have to go
back to Lime Away because it cleans PCBs better than the "new, not so
improved (for PCB cleaning)" Scrub Free. I'll have to check out the
labels on the even cheaper generic house brands to see if they contain
sulfamic acid.

WB

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "klmjr22" <keithlmartin@...> wrote:

> I looked at the Household products database and found tarn-x is 3-5
> sulfamic acid but also contains Thiourea which may help cleaning.I
> found that Lime Away has < 11 percent sulfamic acid acording to the
> MSDS sheet. Tried some on some BAD copper and all the dark brown areas
> turned that nice reddish color you want. The black and green areas
> appeared to clean up with some scrubbing. This stuff is readily
> available. Assuming the sulfamic acid is what you want there is a
> product called Aqua Mix Sulfamic Acid Crystals available at Lowes that
> is a 99.5 percent pure sulfamic acid crystals. Don't know what it
> costs yet. But Lime Away does work and it doesn't have a lot of exta
> stuff in it you may not want.
> Keith

I looked on the Lowes.com web page, but didn't find the Aqua Mix
Sulfamic Acid Crystals.  I called my local store and they didn't have
them either.  I did find an online source:

http://www.artistictile.net/store/aquamix.html

$5.85 for 1 lb (makes 2.5 gallons) plus whatever postage they charge.
 I'll be taking a look at the premixed Aqua Mix and other tile & grout
cleaning products at Lowes and elsewhere and looking for the crystals
just for the heck of it since Lime Away (and possibly generic
versions) will apparently do the job and can be found easily (in the
US anyway).

WB