Synth-DIY Yahoo! Groups Archives

Thread

TMI (Too Much Information)

2006-02-14 by David Frascone

Ok, -- I want to try to make some PCB's, but I'm getting a little lost
with all the information. Here's what I have:

HP Laserjet 4MP (with after market (non HP) toner)
Generic Glossy Photo paper for Inkjet printers . .

Should I even start with these? What's the cheapest way to get
started? Go to staples and buy their (Staples Brand) paper and do the
paper soak away?

Please let me know!

-Dave

Re: TMI (Too Much Information)

2006-02-14 by wh1temouse

I prefer "Staples Picture Paper", but it will probably work with what
you have. At least you'll get a baseline to compare against.

Also, you asked earlier about point-to-point layouts, I think Eagle's
ratsnest function would do well to help you decide where to put
components. Draw the schematic, then do a "switch to board", and it
will give you a board outline with all of the components connected
with rubber-band lines.

Mickey

Show quoted textHide quoted text

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, David Frascone <dave@...> wrote:
>
>
> Ok, -- I want to try to make some PCB's, but I'm getting a little lost
> with all the information. Here's what I have:
>
> HP Laserjet 4MP (with after market (non HP) toner)
> Generic Glossy Photo paper for Inkjet printers . .
>
> Should I even start with these? What's the cheapest way to get
> started? Go to staples and buy their (Staples Brand) paper and do the
> paper soak away?
>
> Please let me know!
>
> -Dave
>

Re: TMI (Too Much Information)

2006-02-14 by soffee83

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "wh1temouse" <whitemouse@...>
wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text

>do a "switch to board", and it will give you a board outline with all
>of the components connected with rubber-band lines.

But with no logical locations. ;)

I usually drag mine way out into the free space with enough room
between them to really see all the "crisscrossing" of the wires. Then
you can start moving them around and rotating to get the least amount
of crossed wires, then start bringing them back in. -> you can rotate
during a move by right clicking

It's hard to really see the unrouted wire paths when they're close
together. I wish they allowed for multiple colors on those.

-George

PS- Another feature I managed to to not find all this time, was that
while using the actual rotate tool, you can drag away from the
object's center and "free rotate" to weird angles.

Re: TMI (Too Much Information)

2006-02-14 by wh1temouse

A feature that I miss from my Telesis days:

The ability to change a ratsnest line into a trace. You could insert a
vertex, change layer, change width, and still have the rest of it be a
ratsnest line.

Show quoted textHide quoted text

>
> It's hard to really see the unrouted wire paths when they're close
> together. I wish they allowed for multiple colors on those.
>
> -George
>
> PS- Another feature I managed to to not find all this time, was that
> while using the actual rotate tool, you can drag away from the
> object's center and "free rotate" to weird angles.
>

Re: TMI (Too Much Information)

2006-02-15 by kilocycles

Dave,
I got my start in PCBs before I found this group. What worked for me
was a commercial "plastic paper", Press-n-Peel Blue. It costs about
$10 for a package of five 8 1/2 x 11 inch sheets, plus shipping. One
of the suppliers is Electronix Express.

I would print out my board (reverse image) with my inkjet onto regular
paper, and take it and the P-n-P Blue to the library for photocopying.
The plastic "ink" from the photocopier fused onto the dull side of
the P n P Blue. Then, I ironed it onto the prepared PCB.

I achieved generally good and consistent results. $2-plus a sheet,
however is kind of expensive, and I bought a laser printer to avoid
the trips to the library. I have yet to make an equivalent quality
board using my Brother 2040 and the P-n-P, so I'm trying alternatives,
and learning a lot in the process. The manufacture, Techniks, told me
that "the new laser printers have higher toner temperatures" and that
I needed a hotter iron. Apparently, I need one fired with MAPP gas, then!

So, bottom line, the P-n-P Blue and photocopier is a reasonable way to
start, with minimum frustration. What you learn doing it that way at
first will certainly apply to the more creative ways later on.

Regards,
Ted

Show quoted textHide quoted text

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, David Frascone <dave@...> wrote:
>
>
> Ok, -- I want to try to make some PCB's, but I'm getting a little lost
> with all the information. Here's what I have:
>
> HP Laserjet 4MP (with after market (non HP) toner)
> Generic Glossy Photo paper for Inkjet printers . .
>
> Should I even start with these? What's the cheapest way to get
> started? Go to staples and buy their (Staples Brand) paper and do the
> paper soak away?
>
> Please let me know!
>
> -Dave
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: TMI (Too Much Information)

2006-02-15 by David Frascone

Can the P-n-P blue be used in a laser printer instead of a photo copier?

-Dave

kilocycles wrote:

Show quoted textHide quoted text

> Dave,
> I got my start in PCBs before I found this group. What worked for me
> was a commercial "plastic paper", Press-n-Peel Blue. It costs about
> $10 for a package of five 8 1/2 x 11 inch sheets, plus shipping. One
> of the suppliers is Electronix Express.
>
> I would print out my board (reverse image) with my inkjet onto regular
> paper, and take it and the P-n-P Blue to the library for photocopying.
> The plastic "ink" from the photocopier fused onto the dull side of
> the P n P Blue. Then, I ironed it onto the prepared PCB.
>
> I achieved generally good and consistent results. $2-plus a sheet,
> however is kind of expensive, and I bought a laser printer to avoid
> the trips to the library. I have yet to make an equivalent quality
> board using my Brother 2040 and the P-n-P, so I'm trying alternatives,
> and learning a lot in the process. The manufacture, Techniks, told me
> that "the new laser printers have higher toner temperatures" and that
> I needed a hotter iron. Apparently, I need one fired with MAPP gas, then!
>
> So, bottom line, the P-n-P Blue and photocopier is a reasonable way to
> start, with minimum frustration. What you learn doing it that way at
> first will certainly apply to the more creative ways later on.
>
> Regards,
> Ted
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, David Frascone <dave@...> wrote:
>
>> Ok, -- I want to try to make some PCB's, but I'm getting a little lost
>> with all the information. Here's what I have:
>>
>> HP Laserjet 4MP (with after market (non HP) toner)
>> Generic Glossy Photo paper for Inkjet printers . .
>>
>> Should I even start with these? What's the cheapest way to get
>> started? Go to staples and buy their (Staples Brand) paper and do the
>> paper soak away?
>>
>> Please let me know!
>>
>> -Dave
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: TMI (Too Much Information)

2006-02-15 by Leon Heller

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Frascone" <dave@...>
To: <Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 2:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Homebrew_PCBs] Re: TMI (Too Much Information)

> Can the P-n-P blue be used in a laser printer instead of a photo copier?

Of course! That is how it is normally used.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
leon.heller@...
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller
---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility
to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
currently using to read this email. ]

Re: TMI (Too Much Information)

2006-02-15 by kilocycles

Dave,
Yes, a laser printer can be used directly; but that's my current
problem. I can get very high density of toner deposited on the sheet
of Press-n-Peel, but I'm not having very good results in getting it to
transfer and stick to the circuit board. On my first use of the new
Brother HL-2040 laser printer, I ironed in the normal way, same time,
temperature and pressure that I had been doing before with the
photocopier-generated toner, and I had less than 25 percent of the
toner transfer to the board.

I contacted Techniks tech support, and they told me that many of the
newer laser printers use higher temperatures, over 350 degrees F, than
the older ones, but the P-n-P is good for 450 degrees (recalling from
memory on that one), and that I should use an iron on its highest setting.

I have some example board images scanned, but I'm not sure I want to
put them in the Photos section, from a liability standpoint. I
retouched them heavily with fingernail polish and a Staedtler
Lumicolor Red fiber-tipped pen to make them usable, at least. My
results with photocopying, rather than with laser printing, were much,
much better. Basically, I never really had a bad board.

As to the printer, there are several variables involved, two of which
are the laser printer itself and its temperature, and also the
toner...manufacturer's, or 2nd party vendor brand.

Other variables to the production process are the
time-temperature-pressure of ironing, and also movement of the iron,
and whether or not paper or a piece of cloth is put over the board
while ironing. My next experiment will be to use a folded cloth on
the Press-n-Peel while I iron, to try to get even distribution of
temperature and pressure. Especially with a thin board, the iron may
not be making sufficient contact with all of the board.

Regards,
Ted

Show quoted textHide quoted text

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, David Frascone <dave@...> wrote:
>
> Can the P-n-P blue be used in a laser printer instead of a photo copier?
>
> -Dave
>
> kilocycles wrote:
> > Dave,
> > I got my start in PCBs before I found this group. What worked for me
> > was a commercial "plastic paper", Press-n-Peel Blue. It costs about
> > $10 for a package of five 8 1/2 x 11 inch sheets, plus shipping. One
> > of the suppliers is Electronix Express.
> >
> > I would print out my board (reverse image) with my inkjet onto regular
> > paper, and take it and the P-n-P Blue to the library for photocopying.
> > The plastic "ink" from the photocopier fused onto the dull side of
> > the P n P Blue. Then, I ironed it onto the prepared PCB.
> >
> > I achieved generally good and consistent results. $2-plus a sheet,
> > however is kind of expensive, and I bought a laser printer to avoid
> > the trips to the library. I have yet to make an equivalent quality
> > board using my Brother 2040 and the P-n-P, so I'm trying alternatives,
> > and learning a lot in the process. The manufacture, Techniks, told me
> > that "the new laser printers have higher toner temperatures" and that
> > I needed a hotter iron. Apparently, I need one fired with MAPP
gas, then!
> >
> > So, bottom line, the P-n-P Blue and photocopier is a reasonable way to
> > start, with minimum frustration. What you learn doing it that way at
> > first will certainly apply to the more creative ways later on.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Ted
> >
> > --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, David Frascone <dave@> wrote:
> >
> >> Ok, -- I want to try to make some PCB's, but I'm getting a little
lost
> >> with all the information. Here's what I have:
> >>
> >> HP Laserjet 4MP (with after market (non HP) toner)
> >> Generic Glossy Photo paper for Inkjet printers . .
> >>
> >> Should I even start with these? What's the cheapest way to get
> >> started? Go to staples and buy their (Staples Brand) paper and
do the
> >> paper soak away?
> >>
> >> Please let me know!
> >>
> >> -Dave
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files,
and Photos:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> >
> > If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>