Homebrew PCBs

On Wed Nov 2, 2005  7:06 pm
Mike Young asked, 

( snip )
In the freebie Eagle, is there a way to print, for toner transfer, 
more than one image per page? I'm trying to maximize use of each 
toner transfer sheet while keeping the passes through the printer to 
a minimum.
( snip )

I started doing the following procedure without remembering that you 
had said you wished to keep "passes through the printer to a minimum" 

In the "Board" module of Eagle if you go into the "Print setup" and 
then select the "Page" button, you can set the output to Top, Bottom, 
Left, Right for printing rather than the default of Center. The PDF 
File ( Files > Toner_Transfer > Eagle "Lite" Multi Output )
"4 Way Prt from Eagle Lite.pdf"

http://f5.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/EIqpQ1mk4SD3FASWsQ6dof_jUbBKC9hT4Wd_begx
baQBGzWT2KCG2DtT9TotG7LQ_YC_UAbTSdAqCdRvMZitd1xQk0N4efY2yIU/Toner_Tran
sfer/Eagle%20%22Lite%22%20Multi%20Output/4%20Way%20Prt%20from%20Eagle%
20Lite.pdf 

shows PROPORTIONALLY what the output looks like, this is actually a 
Photoshop edited SCAN of a real printed page with everything set for 
Landscape Printing. Red lines indicate the 8.5 X 11 sheet size. If 
you are doing a double sided board it might help to use the X or Y 
axis as a "hinge"  on one edge of the board. Even if you cut all four 
images from the sheet, I think this is faster than the "cut material 
and tape to carrier sheet" way of doing things.

I think you can also export to a standard image file as opposed to 
printing. This should allow you to manipulate and paste it in whatever 
program you want. Windows screen capture to jpg (print screen button?) 
may work too, but either way I'd check the dimensions in your graphics 
app. If the resolution is decent, it should at least save you whatever 
difference the extra scan steps might make.

I normally do the Eagle "page" technique too. I usually move things 
from top to center to bottom, actually slicing the paper into thirds. 
With my regular photo paper, I haven't had any trouble feeding the 3.
66" sheets. For the really small boards, that way still sucks, and on 
occasion I have moved the horizontal alignment as well, just letting 
the finished prints run through more than once to get two or three per 
row (not sure what the extra heat does to the toner).

-George

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "scratch_6057" <dml.empsrch@...>
> In the "Board" module of Eagle if you go into the "Print setup" and
> then select the "Page" button, you can set the output to Top, Bottom,
> Left, Right for printing rather than the default of Center. The PDF
> File ( Files > Toner_Transfer > Eagle "Lite" Multi Output )
> "4 Way Prt from Eagle Lite.pdf"
>
> http://f5.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/EIqpQ1mk4SD3FASWsQ6dof_jUbBKC9hT4Wd_begx
> baQBGzWT2KCG2DtT9TotG7LQ_YC_UAbTSdAqCdRvMZitd1xQk0N4efY2yIU/Toner_Tran
> sfer/Eagle%20%22Lite%22%20Multi%20Output/4%20Way%20Prt%20from%20Eagle%
> 20Lite.pdf

I doubt this link will do any better. Probably an issue with Yahoo logins
and cookies, rather than simply one of links and things. You can keep
multi-line URLs together by quoting them in angle brackets, '<' and '>'.

http://f5.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/MKapQ_YmP483CeTMGotsiRM7hzltWDnDJaaRN5O77sFOvKYEEadRf_xeqHmeg_ipf4txGsov32UcH_G0NFrdDaKo77pCOq2SCypb6Fi30KtQl2k/Toner_Transfer/Eagle%20%22Lite%22%20Multi%20Output/4%20Way%20Prt%20from%20Eagle%20Lite.pdf

>
> shows PROPORTIONALLY what the output looks like, this is actually a
> Photoshop edited SCAN of a real printed page with everything set for
> Landscape Printing. Red lines indicate the 8.5 X 11 sheet size. If
> you are doing a double sided board it might help to use the X or Y
> axis as a "hinge"  on one edge of the board. Even if you cut all four
> images from the sheet, I think this is faster than the "cut material
> and tape to carrier sheet" way of doing things.

Are you printing each image into the different quadrants, then? Four passes?

I got pretty good at combining the separate images in Photoshop, and then 
printing from there. But it's still tedious. cam2images.ulp helps by 
automating the image export from Eagle. cam2print.ulp does something similar 
for printing, but only one image per page.

At $1.50 per sheet, I'm still pretty miserly with the Pulsar paper, 
especially for the very teensie weensie boards I do. Either way you do it, 
though, you still have to trim off the excess. Trimming the bulk of it 
beforehand seems as good a way to do it as any. Excepting that the cut off 
has a real chance of being tainted and contaminated with skin oil, and thus 
one step closer to garbage, each time I pick it up to handle it.

I think the only answer is to find cheap paper, something cheap enough even 
that the terminally neurotic can stand to knowingly "waste". :)

I export each layout to a bitmap with eagle, at 600 dpi which is my
printer's resolution, that makes it exactly the right dimensions... then
import it into photoshop, invert the colors, and then I copy and paste
multiple layouts into one image file and print all at once.  As long as you
don't resize any of the bitmaps, and make sure the image you paste them into
is also at the same resolution (dpi)...

photoshop also makes it easy since you can use the little ruler tool to get
the different boards positioned a certain distance apart, so that you can do
multiple boards with one big toner pattern and keep them just far enough
apart to cut them apart afterward without leaving much excess.

also, with photoshop, you can do "print with preview" and position the image
anywhere on the page, that way you can individually print a few different
things on one page by running it through the printer several times, if you
wish.

-Evan

On 12/21/05, Mike Young <mikewhy@...> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "scratch_6057" <dml.empsrch@...>
> > In the "Board" module of Eagle if you go into the "Print setup" and
> > then select the "Page" button, you can set the output to Top, Bottom,
> > Left, Right for printing rather than the default of Center. The PDF
> > File ( Files > Toner_Transfer > Eagle "Lite" Multi Output )
> > "4 Way Prt from Eagle Lite.pdf"
> >
> > http://f5.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/EIqpQ1mk4SD3FASWsQ6dof_jUbBKC9hT4Wd_begx
> > baQBGzWT2KCG2DtT9TotG7LQ_YC_UAbTSdAqCdRvMZitd1xQk0N4efY2yIU/Toner_Tran
> > sfer/Eagle%20%22Lite%22%20Multi%20Output/4%20Way%20Prt%20from%20Eagle%
> > 20Lite.pdf
>
> I doubt this link will do any better. Probably an issue with Yahoo logins
> and cookies, rather than simply one of links and things. You can keep
> multi-line URLs together by quoting them in angle brackets, '<' and '>'.
>
>
> http://f5.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/MKapQ_YmP483CeTMGotsiRM7hzltWDnDJaaRN5O77sFOvKYEEadRf_xeqHmeg_ipf4txGsov32UcH_G0NFrdDaKo77pCOq2SCypb6Fi30KtQl2k/Toner_Transfer/Eagle%20%22Lite%22%20Multi%20Output/4%20Way%20Prt%20from%20Eagle%20Lite.pdf
>
> >
> > shows PROPORTIONALLY what the output looks like, this is actually a
> > Photoshop edited SCAN of a real printed page with everything set for
> > Landscape Printing. Red lines indicate the 8.5 X 11 sheet size. If
> > you are doing a double sided board it might help to use the X or Y
> > axis as a "hinge"  on one edge of the board. Even if you cut all four
> > images from the sheet, I think this is faster than the "cut material
> > and tape to carrier sheet" way of doing things.
>
> Are you printing each image into the different quadrants, then? Four
> passes?
>
> I got pretty good at combining the separate images in Photoshop, and then
> printing from there. But it's still tedious. cam2images.ulp helps by
> automating the image export from Eagle. cam2print.ulp does something
> similar
> for printing, but only one image per page.
>
> At $1.50 per sheet, I'm still pretty miserly with the Pulsar paper,
> especially for the very teensie weensie boards I do. Either way you do it,
> though, you still have to trim off the excess. Trimming the bulk of it
> beforehand seems as good a way to do it as any. Excepting that the cut off
> has a real chance of being tainted and contaminated with skin oil, and
> thus
> one step closer to garbage, each time I pick it up to handle it.
>
> I think the only answer is to find cheap paper, something cheap enough
> even
> that the terminally neurotic can stand to knowingly "waste". :)
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
> Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Young" <mikewhy@s...> 
wrote:
> 
> Are you printing each image into the different quadrants, then? 
Four passes?
> 
Yes that is the idea with what I presented in that message.

> I got pretty good at combining the separate images in Photoshop,
> and then printing from there. 

Yea, I have a copy of the full version of Adobe Acrobat 4.0 (old I 
know but it works) with Distiller, so when I want to do "panalizing" 
I print from Eagle to my PDF printer and import into Photoshop, layers
make it easyer to line up double sided boards and do other editing
which might be impossable without major $$$ otherwise.

> But it's still tedious. cam2images.ulp helps by 
> automating the image export from Eagle. cam2print.ulp does
> something similar for printing, but only one image per page.

Are those CAM files on the Cadsoft site? If not, where can I find 
them? 
> 
> At $1.50 per sheet, I'm still pretty miserly with the Pulsar paper, 
> especially for the very teensie weensie boards I do. 

Oh Yea $1.50 per sheet is kind of expensive, I'm using the 
Staples "photo basic" "gloss" Staples item# 471861 
UPC code 71803028561 ~$9.00 for 30 sheet pack, so about 1/5 the cost 
of Pulsar paper. Also you might want to look at my post on "WATER 
SOLUABLE PAPER" ~ $0.85 per sheet.

Are your boards just  the wrong size to use the panelize.ulp in Eagle
and get multiples to a 80mm x 100mm print?

> Either way you do it, though, you still have to trim off the
> excess. Trimming the bulk of it beforehand seems as good a way to
> do it as any. Excepting that the cut off has a real chance of being
> tainted and contaminated with skin oil, and thus one step closer to
> garbage, each time I pick it up to handle it.

You might consider going to the Pharmacy / drug store and picking up 
some latex gloves (probably should use around etchant anyway) and get 
some tweezers from the cosmetics section.
> 
> I think the only answer is to find cheap paper, something cheap 
enough even that the terminally neurotic can stand to 
>knowingly "waste". :)
>

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "scratch_6057" <dml.empsrch@...>
>> But it's still tedious. cam2images.ulp helps by
>> automating the image export from Eagle. cam2print.ulp does
>> something similar for printing, but only one image per page.
>
> Are those CAM files on the Cadsoft site? If not, where can I find
> them?

Define them in the CAM processor. File|CAM Processor... Define a new job, 
and then define a section in that job for each group of layers you want to 
image.

> Oh Yea $1.50 per sheet is kind of expensive, I'm using the
> Staples "photo basic" "gloss" Staples item# 471861
> UPC code 71803028561 ~$9.00 for 30 sheet pack, so about 1/5 the cost
> of Pulsar paper. Also you might want to look at my post on "WATER
> SOLUABLE PAPER" ~ $0.85 per sheet.

That's getting closer. The problem really isn't the money, is it? I spend 
that on a cup of pseudo-coffee without thinking or blinking. The trick, I 
think, is to just buy a ream of something usable, and then quickly forget 
how much you paid for it. When it comes in packs of 10, they feel just a 
little more precious, too precious to waste let alone use properly, no 
matter how much or little it cost. Running out of something is to be 
dreaded, because then I'll have to be aware for a short while how much it 
costs when replacing it. (Direct deposit and debit cards work well for me; 
money is a problem only when it leaves that level of abstraction.)

> Are your boards just  the wrong size to use the panelize.ulp in Eagle
> and get multiples to a 80mm x 100mm print?

Everything I do is one of, so that isn't a problem. Anyway, I just assumed 
that the freebie Eagle wouldn't let the board get larger than whatever limit 
it has, but maybe that's only for the autorouter. Panelizing in Photoshop is 
also pretty easy, even if it can't be 100% automated.

>> tainted and contaminated with skin oil, and thus one step closer to
>> garbage, each time I pick it up to handle it.
>
> You might consider going to the Pharmacy / drug store and picking up
> some latex gloves (probably should use around etchant anyway) and get
> some tweezers from the cosmetics section.

Boy, have I got tweezers. :) Vacuum suction thingees, too. SOT23's and 
0402's lost that fight some time ago.

I still work with negatives (digital won't begin to touch 4x5 film for 
detail for some time yet; probably never will). I use lint-free cotton 
gloves but am still paranoid about things. Swipe the side of your nose or 
forehead just once...

I can't wait to see what new neuroses next year brings.

Hi

I'm in the UK and use the TT method / HP 4L laser printer & a hot iron 
(steam setting without the steam :) - never looked back.

I've used many brands of glossy paper, all with different results, 
however, the best by far is from the MORRISONS supermarket chain.
It is cheaper than virtually all other alternatives - the results are 
superb and repeatable.

100% toner transfer every time, with no white 'film' residue.

Richard