Homebrew_PCBs

Hi all,

Didn't see any discussion on this topic in past posts, so I thought
I'd throw this out to the group...

I am trying to reproduce a circuit board for a very old arcade game
from 1975. Its an old style pitch and bat game, so the electronics
are fairly simple, but the board is huge (approx 13x19") with about
100 TTL Logic chips and various resistors/capactors. Double
sided... This board is no longer available and I have not been able
to locate a board for quite some time... I was able to borrow a
board from a fellow collector, but it is only on-loan. I also have
the schematics...

My question to the group: Does this sound like a resonable process
to reproduce this board:

1) Remove all components from board
2) Scan in both sides (double sided board)
3) Touch up artwork and output to transfer paper
4) Transfer images to copper clad board
5) Etch, drill, populate...

Is this the process most of you would follow to reproduce a board?
Or am I missing an easier process? I actually thought about re-
designing the board a little smaller, but I cannot afford the cost of
an auto-routing software package to do a board of that size.

Any thoughts or suggestions?
Thanks!

Tony

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 19:22:47 +0200, Tony <trossi@...> wrote:

> Hi all,
> Didn't see any discussion on this topic in past posts, so I thought
> I'd throw this out to the group...
> I am trying to reproduce a circuit board for a very old arcade game
> from 1975. Its an old style pitch and bat game, so the electronics
> are fairly simple, but the board is huge (approx 13x19") with about
> 100 TTL Logic chips and various resistors/capactors. Double
> sided... This board is no longer available and I have not been able
> to locate a board for quite some time... I was able to borrow a
> board from a fellow collector, but it is only on-loan. I also have
> the schematics...
> My question to the group: Does this sound like a resonable process
> to reproduce this board:
> 1) Remove all components from board
> 2) Scan in both sides (double sided board)
> 3) Touch up artwork and output to transfer paper
> 4) Transfer images to copper clad board
> 5) Etch, drill, populate...
> Is this the process most of you would follow to reproduce a board?
> Or am I missing an easier process? I actually thought about re-
> designing the board a little smaller, but I cannot afford the cost of
> an auto-routing software package to do a board of that size.
> Any thoughts or suggestions?
> Thanks!
> Tony

First, forget about auto-routing. It doesn't work.
Without putting WAY more effort into setting it up than it would take to
hand route a few boards that is.


I wonder if a fully manual method would not be easier in this case,
putting a piece of transparent paper over the board and drawing it...
scanning and touchup would work well with a software that supports layers,
like paint shop pro for example.

It sonds like a right nightmare to me, the whole affair. Desoldering all
that stuff, and then making sure it works after re-populating.

I haven't reproduced a PCB from the board itself, but i have reproduced
several layouts that i had as bitmap into files for my layout software,
using the import picture feature and working "over" it.

ST

>I haven't reproduced a PCB from the board itself, but i have reproduced
>several layouts that i had as bitmap into files for my layout software,
>using the import picture feature and working "over" it.
>
>ST

I'm interested, which software you use for that, please?
Cristian


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 20:11:36 +0200, cristian <cristianbip@...>
wrote:

>
> I'm interested, which software you use for that, please?
> Cristian

I use target from www.ibfriedrich.com

It has a import feature that converts a picture into a drawing made of
lines (the software doesn't really support bitmap display), so you need to
have a 2 color bitmap to start with. The feature was meant to import
company logos but it has served me well for that other purpose. I just put
the imported graphic on a unused layer.

ST

Hi,

This is something I have done a few times using LineArt in Photoshop to get
a clear black/white image. At the time I didn't have toner paper and used
printer paper sprayed with Transparantiser and coated PCB boards. It worked
but was a lot of messing.

Regards,

Terry


| Hi all,
|
| Didn't see any discussion on this topic in past posts, so I thought
| I'd throw this out to the group...
|
| I am trying to reproduce a circuit board for a very old arcade game
| from 1975. Its an old style pitch and bat game, so the electronics
| are fairly simple, but the board is huge (approx 13x19") with about
| 100 TTL Logic chips and various resistors/capactors. Double
| sided... This board is no longer available and I have not been able
| to locate a board for quite some time... I was able to borrow a
| board from a fellow collector, but it is only on-loan. I also have
| the schematics...
|
| My question to the group: Does this sound like a resonable process
| to reproduce this board:
|
| 1) Remove all components from board
| 2) Scan in both sides (double sided board)
| 3) Touch up artwork and output to transfer paper
| 4) Transfer images to copper clad board
| 5) Etch, drill, populate...
|
| Is this the process most of you would follow to reproduce a board?
| Or am I missing an easier process? I actually thought about re-
| designing the board a little smaller, but I cannot afford the cost of
| an auto-routing software package to do a board of that size.
|
| Any thoughts or suggestions?
| Thanks!
|
| Tony
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and
Photos:
| http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
|
| If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
| http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
| Yahoo! Groups Links
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| --
| No virus found in this incoming message.
| Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
| Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.4/109 - Release Date: 21/09/05
|
|

>
>I use target from www.ibfriedrich.com

I use Sprint Layout which has a special 1bit bitmap transparent import,
from www.abacom-online.de/
It is not a sophisticated one, but very good for such a reverse engineering.
Cristian



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Get quote from prototype PCB shop for a 19x13" plated hole PCB.
I think you want plated holes unless your looking for a challenge and
want to connect every single 100*16 pin ICs= 1600 holes + vias.

The computer scanner is the only way I would do it. Do in multiple A4
and then join/edit in Photoshop, ect. I imagine some skill would be
needed to drive the editing software, like Photoshop.

Unless you have nothing better to do in the next several months of your
life, I wouldn't even think about designing and manufacturing the PCB
from the schematic.

As for non-destructive desoldering of PTH components, I use one of those
100W plumber electric soldering irons. I made a copper spade tip that
matches the length of row of pins on 16 pin DIP IC. All 8 pins are
heated and the package is pulled out slightly by pliers on the component
side. You can make custom tips easy with materials like, steel rod,
copper sheet metal, steel screws, ect.


Adam

Tony wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Didn't see any discussion on this topic in past posts, so I thought
> I'd throw this out to the group...
>
> I am trying to reproduce a circuit board for a very old arcade game
> from 1975. Its an old style pitch and bat game, so the electronics
> are fairly simple, but the board is huge (approx 13x19") with about
> 100 TTL Logic chips and various resistors/capactors. Double
> sided... This board is no longer available and I have not been able
> to locate a board for quite some time... I was able to borrow a
> board from a fellow collector, but it is only on-loan. I also have
> the schematics...
>
> My question to the group: Does this sound like a resonable process
> to reproduce this board:
>
> 1) Remove all components from board
> 2) Scan in both sides (double sided board)
> 3) Touch up artwork and output to transfer paper
> 4) Transfer images to copper clad board
> 5) Etch, drill, populate...
>
> Is this the process most of you would follow to reproduce a board?
> Or am I missing an easier process? I actually thought about re-
> designing the board a little smaller, but I cannot afford the cost of
> an auto-routing software package to do a board of that size.
>
> Any thoughts or suggestions?
> Thanks!
>
> Tony
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
>
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs_Archives/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

10 days max.

Adam Seychell <a_seychell@...> wrote:Unless you have nothing better to do in the next several months of your
life, I wouldn't even think about designing and manufacturing the PCB
from the schematic.




---------------------------------
Yahoo! for Good
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Even less if the schematic is in electronic form and can be imported
into an EDA program. Remember - You don't have to own a fancy
autorouter so long as someone else does and is willing to do the
autorouting for you. I'm sure that there are a number of people in
this group who have these capabilities.

Tony, Do you have the schematic in electronic form? If so, what CAD
format is it?

Regards, Bob

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, guja <guja2001bg@y...> wrote:
> 10 days max.
>
> Adam Seychell <a_seychell@y...> wrote:Unless you have nothing
better
to do in the next several months of your
> life, I wouldn't even think about designing and manufacturing the
PCB
> from the schematic.
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! for Good
> Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thinking of treating myself to a new laser, would prefer a colour, any
suggestions or any info on if colour works with TT

Or should I replace my 4l with a BW etc, its drum got scratched this
morning so its off to silicone heaven, but I need to replace it for
letters and TT

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 12:50:54 +0200, Lez <lez.briddon@...> wrote:

>
> Thinking of treating myself to a new laser, would prefer a colour, any
> suggestions or any info on if colour works with TT
> Or should I replace my 4l with a BW etc, its drum got scratched this
> morning so its off to silicone heaven, but I need to replace it for
> letters and TT

I wonder if color toner would work in a B/W printer?

I prefer printers where the drum gets exchanged with the toner, personally.
If the drum is still good i can refill the cartridge. Of course the
cartridges are more expensive, too.

ST

Bob,

Unfortunately, the schmatic is on several sheets of 8.5 x 11 paper.

:(

Tony

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Bob_xyz" <bob_barr@h...> wrote:
> Even less if the schematic is in electronic form and can be
imported
> into an EDA program. Remember - You don't have to own a fancy
> autorouter so long as someone else does and is willing to do the
> autorouting for you. I'm sure that there are a number of people in
> this group who have these capabilities.
>
> Tony, Do you have the schematic in electronic form? If so, what CAD
> format is it?
>
> Regards, Bob
>
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, guja <guja2001bg@y...> wrote:
> > 10 days max.
> >
> > Adam Seychell <a_seychell@y...> wrote:Unless you have nothing
> better
> to do in the next several months of your
> > life, I wouldn't even think about designing and manufacturing the
> PCB
> > from the schematic.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Yahoo! for Good
> > Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "Tony" <trossi@h...> wrote:

> Bob,
>
> Unfortunately, the schmatic is on several sheets of 8.5 x 11 paper.
>
> :(
>
> Tony
>

Ouch! That hurts.

That would take quite a bit of work to re-create the board with an
EDA package. I don't know that there's any program that can convert
paper copies to electronic form.


Regards, Bob

> Hi all,
>
> Didn't see any discussion on this topic in past
> posts, so I thought
> I'd throw this out to the group...
>
> I am trying to reproduce a circuit board for a very
> old arcade game
> from 1975. Its an old style pitch and bat game, so
> the electronics
> are fairly simple, but the board is huge (approx
> 13x19") with about
> 100 TTL Logic chips and various resistors/capactors.
> Double
> sided... This board is no longer available and I
> have not been able
> to locate a board for quite some time... I was able
> to borrow a
> board from a fellow collector, but it is only
> on-loan. I also have
> the schematics...
>
> My question to the group: Does this sound like a
> resonable process
> to reproduce this board:
>
> 1) Remove all components from board
> 2) Scan in both sides (double sided board)
> 3) Touch up artwork and output to transfer paper
> 4) Transfer images to copper clad board
> 5) Etch, drill, populate...
>
> Is this the process most of you would follow to
> reproduce a board?
> Or am I missing an easier process? I actually
> thought about re-
> designing the board a little smaller, but I cannot
> afford the cost of
> an auto-routing software package to do a board of
> that size.
>
> Any thoughts or suggestions?
> Thanks!
>
> Tony
>

One other concern. Can you still get the parts? A lot
of logic at that time is no longer made. Most newer
parts have much faster risetimes, and as a result,
what worked then, may no longer work with todays
parts.

Occasionally we would be asked to reverse engineer,
and bring an old product line back to life. In a lot
of cases, this usually meant setting up a micro or
fpga to recreate the functions, rather than trying to
make a duplicate of an old design. Otoh, these were
not one off units, normally if someone wanted an old
product brought back into production, they wanted 10's
if not 100's of thousands of units, thus making the
process worthwhile.

In other cases, we might have the pcb digitally
xrayed, and then separate out the board layers. That
way, the golden unit would not be susceptible to
damage, and we could test and verify the new design
against what might be the one and only working old one
still in existance.

Ron




______________________________________________________
Yahoo! for Good
Donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 17:22:47 +0000, you wrote:

>I am trying to reproduce a circuit board for a very old arcade game
>from 1975. Its an old style pitch and bat game, so the electronics

>I also have the schematics...

Since you have the schematic you should be able to functionally replace the board using a uProcessor with
flash memory, such as the Zilog z8 Encore or a PIC.

Earl

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, Adam Seychell <a_seychell@y...>
wrote:
...

> As for non-destructive desoldering of PTH components, I use one of

those

> 100W plumber electric soldering irons. I made a copper spade tip that
> matches the length of row of pins on 16 pin DIP IC. All 8 pins are
> heated and the package is pulled out slightly by pliers on the

component

> side. You can make custom tips easy with materials like, steel rod,
> copper sheet metal, steel screws, ect.

There is also ChipQuik. Melt ChipQuik onto the existing solder, and
the parts almost fall out. Basic idea is that it is an alloy that is
very soft. Clean it all off before soldering the parts back in.

http://www.chipquik.com

I got a sample but haven't had a chance to try it out yet.

Steve Greenfield

Steve wrote:

>
>
> There is also ChipQuik. Melt ChipQuik onto the existing solder, and
> the parts almost fall out. Basic idea is that it is an alloy that is
> very soft. Clean it all off before soldering the parts back in.
>
> http://www.chipquik.com
>
> I got a sample but haven't had a chance to try it out yet.
>
> Steve Greenfield
>

Interesting. Although their web site has no mention of application to
through hole components.

For SO8 and bigger you just need to get some 2mm diameter solid copper
wire, and bend to shape so it fits perimeter of IC pads (I extend the
wire out to make a small handle). Put soldering iron tip on the wire,
heat, apply extra solder between pads and 2mm wire, and soon the IC just
falls off. Do this all the time for TQFP, SO8, SO16 and the like. And
zero collateral damage if your careful.

Adam Seychell