Homebrew PCBs

Howdy,
I have recently just started trying the toner transfer method with
very odd results. I started trying a variety of papers (I am in
Australia) and found that HP Premium Glossy Photo blah blah paper
worked. The first thing I did was a power supply for uni project. Yeah
it worked okay. Fair few pinholes, but I put this down to inexperience.

My next project was a whole heap of gainclones (amps, check
diyaudio.com). Every single one came out perfect, well all except the
super thin traces which I had for a keepout layer. Not important at
all. I was printing with a HP Laserjet with HP toner cartridges.

Just the other day I was making some bodgey circuit and I did the same
process, except the toner wouldn't stick to the board at all. Usually
I would get the paper sticking to the copper, but that wasn't even
happening. I thought it might be my iron, cause my sister constantly
leaves it on when she leaves for work in the morning and it stays on
all day pretty much every day, so I figured it might be stuffed and
not getting hot enough. Tried a few different irons and still the same
result. I eventually got enough toner to etch but still the paper
wasn't sticking like the time when I got the great results. I figured
perhaps the paper might've been exposed to the air too long? I noticed
some other photo paper I got with my printer (can't print on it with
laser though, goes all weird) comes in a foil sealed bag. Maybe all
photo paper has this problem? My other thoughts were that the copper
has to be hot too, and perhaps we weren't getting the copper hot
enough. I was thinking if this is the case, that heating it first with
a heat gun, then pressing the paper onto it, then ironing it would help.

Anyone able to help me explain what is happening here or if anyone
else has had these problems?

Can anyone else in AU suggest paper that works great? Even printers? I
am lookign at a laminator soon from Officeworks. Do they make a big
difference in the results over an iron?

-Mikey

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "milkgonefunky" <mikey@m...> 
wrote:
[snip]
> 
> Can anyone else in AU suggest paper that works great? Even printers? I
> am lookign at a laminator soon from Officeworks. Do they make a big
> difference in the results over an iron?
> 
> -Mikey

I have used Officeworks brand A4 150gsm Matte inkjet photopaper (code 
AUOWPMMW) it costs about $20 for 30 sheets.  I can get 8mil tracks 
without any problems.  Iron for 2 min then allow to cool and peel off, 
I don't even need to use water.  I have not tried the laminator but 
that is on the cards.

Mike

is this type of paper avaliable in canada from staples as I searched 
the site and could not find it.
Thanks



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikegw20" <mikegw20@h...> 
wrote:
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "milkgonefunky" <mikey@m...> 
> wrote:
> [snip]
> > 
> > Can anyone else in AU suggest paper that works great? Even 
printers? I
> > am lookign at a laminator soon from Officeworks. Do they make a 
big
> > difference in the results over an iron?
> > 
> > -Mikey
> 
> I have used Officeworks brand A4 150gsm Matte inkjet photopaper 
(code 
> AUOWPMMW) it costs about $20 for 30 sheets.  I can get 8mil tracks 
> without any problems.  Iron for 2 min then allow to cool and peel 
off, 
> I don't even need to use water.  I have not tried the laminator 
but 

> that is on the cards.
> 
> Mike

is this type of paper avaliable in canada from staples as I searched 
the site and could not find it.
Thanks



--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "mikegw20" <mikegw20@h...> 
wrote:
> --- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "milkgonefunky" <mikey@m...> 
> wrote:
> [snip]
> > 
> > Can anyone else in AU suggest paper that works great? Even 
printers? I
> > am lookign at a laminator soon from Officeworks. Do they make a 
big
> > difference in the results over an iron?
> > 
> > -Mikey
> 
> I have used Officeworks brand A4 150gsm Matte inkjet photopaper 
(code 
> AUOWPMMW) it costs about $20 for 30 sheets.  I can get 8mil tracks 
> without any problems.  Iron for 2 min then allow to cool and peel 
off, 
> I don't even need to use water.  I have not tried the laminator 
but 

> that is on the cards.
> 
> Mike

Hi Mikey

I also recently started using toner transfer, but unlike you, I bought
  a laminator from the beginning (a massive russian laminator), and I
do think it does some, if not all, the difference. From reading a lot
of messages here in the group I expected to have some problems in my
first attempts. 
I bought a case of verbatim photopapers and printed a schematics,
using a HP laserjet 4m. I cleaned a copper clad board with steel wool
and alcohol and ran it through the laminator three times. I then
poured some dish washer soap on the paper and rubbed it with my thumb
under water until the paper came off. To my supprise the result was
perfect, even the fine lines were perfect. 

I think that if the paper you have used works great in some parts on
the copper clad board and bad in others, then it's not likely that the
paper is the problem. Either it is the cleaning of the copper that
went wrong or it is the heating process of the paper that is causing
the problem. Since the cleaning is really easy, I guess it is the
uneven heating (ironing) process you should focus on. With a laminator
(with a motor to feed the paper at a constant rate) you will be able
to fine tune the process, leaving out the stochastic nature of the
iron/sister combination  :-)

I will try to make some experiments to see how fine lines I can make
and also provide much greater details of my settings (feed rate,
temperature, paper type, ...) and post them here - if this could be of
interest.

One thing is for sure, I will stop doing photo pcb's, since toner
transfer is so easy (don't hope it is beginners luck).

\martin

--- In Homebrew_PCBs@yahoogroups.com, "milkgonefunky" <mikey@m...>
wrote:
> Howdy,
> I have recently just started trying the toner transfer method with
> very odd results. I started trying a variety of papers (I am in
> Australia) and found that HP Premium Glossy Photo blah blah paper
> worked. The first thing I did was a power supply for uni project.
Yeah
> it worked okay. Fair few pinholes, but I put this down to
inexperience.
> 
> My next project was a whole heap of gainclones (amps, check
> diyaudio.com). Every single one came out perfect, well all except
the
> super thin traces which I had for a keepout layer. Not important at
> all. I was printing with a HP Laserjet with HP toner cartridges.
> 
> Just the other day I was making some bodgey circuit and I did the
same
> process, except the toner wouldn't stick to the board at all.
Usually
> I would get the paper sticking to the copper, but that wasn't even
> happening. I thought it might be my iron, cause my sister constantly
> leaves it on when she leaves for work in the morning and it stays on
> all day pretty much every day, so I figured it might be stuffed and
> not getting hot enough. Tried a few different irons and still the
same
> result. I eventually got enough toner to etch but still the paper
> wasn't sticking like the time when I got the great results. I
figured
> perhaps the paper might've been exposed to the air too long? I
noticed
> some other photo paper I got with my printer (can't print on it with
> laser though, goes all weird) comes in a foil sealed bag. Maybe all
> photo paper has this problem? My other thoughts were that the copper
> has to be hot too, and perhaps we weren't getting the copper hot
> enough. I was thinking if this is the case, that heating it first
with
> a heat gun, then pressing the paper onto it, then ironing it would
help.
> 
> Anyone able to help me explain what is happening here or if anyone
> else has had these problems?
> 
> Can anyone else in AU suggest paper that works great? Even
printers? I

> am lookign at a laminator soon from Officeworks. Do they make a big
> difference in the results over an iron?
> 
> -Mikey

Hey Mikey,

I must have stuffed up 15 toner transfer attempts before I got a
situation that works.

Bottom lines:
 - Using an iron is pushing your luck. It introduces too many
   variables with respect to temperatures and heat flow. If you
   do it during the right lunar angle, with the right facial expression
   and the right music playing in the background, it might work, but
   then again, it might not
 - a laminator will take away your pain, especially if it's got spring
   loaded rollers (test this by feeding in a stack of 16 sheets of
   standard 80gsm laser/copy paper - if it doesn't choke, it'll be fine)

What's working for me is:
 - print artwork onto any inkjet photo gloss card stock, preferably
   thin stuff (120-180gsm if possible)
 - clean board with a tissue and toothpaste, taking care not to create
   deep scratches (toothpaste is great because it's got small abrasive
   polishing particles, as well as detergent chemicals (yumm!))
 - warm up laminator to its max temperature and its slowest motor
   speed
 - feed board+paper thru laminator, corner first
 - after 5 passes, gently lift corner in a curling motion (do not fully
   remove paper) and see if the first bits of toner have transferred
 - if any bits of toner are still stuck on paper, then feed board+paper
   through for 5 more passes
 - curl paper off the board a little further, and see how you're doing
 - repeat previous 4 steps till all toner is transferred to board, and
   none is remaining on paper, shouldn't take more than 10-30 passes
   all up

Then inspect for breaks/joins in traces. Fix joins with a fine knife.
Fix breaks with a superfine etch-resist pen.

For etch-resist pens, forget the $10+ ripoff ones from DSE and Jaycar,
they're much too coarse. Go to your art supplies store and get a
Staedtler Lumocolor 313 superfine red pen (not black, or blue, because
only the red has the etch-resist chemistry).

If that pen draws too coarse, then:
- go back to your art supplies store (or a stationery store) and get a
  0.1mm Staedtler marker pen (they often come in wallets of 4, from 0.1
  to 0.7).
- using long-nose pliers, pull the tips from the 0.1 pen and the red
  Lumocolor pen
- get a 3.0 mm drill bit, and very carefully drill it 5mm up the shaft
  of the lumocolor pen, taking care to remove all particles
- wash the 0.1mm tip in water, maybe even taking a mouthful of water and
  blowing it thru the 0.1mm tip, till the tip is white. dry thoroughly
- insert the 0.1mm tip into the lumocolor pen shaft
- carefully shake the new hybrid pen till red ink appears at the tip
- you now have an ultra-fine etch resist pen


Cheers
David


milkgonefunky wrote:

> Howdy,
> I have recently just started trying the toner transfer method with
> very odd results. I started trying a variety of papers (I am in
> Australia) and found that HP Premium Glossy Photo blah blah paper
> worked. The first thing I did was a power supply for uni project. Yeah
> it worked okay. Fair few pinholes, but I put this down to inexperience.
> 
> My next project was a whole heap of gainclones (amps, check
> diyaudio.com). Every single one came out perfect, well all except the
> super thin traces which I had for a keepout layer. Not important at
> all. I was printing with a HP Laserjet with HP toner cartridges.
> 
> Just the other day I was making some bodgey circuit and I did the same
> process, except the toner wouldn't stick to the board at all. Usually
> I would get the paper sticking to the copper, but that wasn't even
> happening. I thought it might be my iron, cause my sister constantly
> leaves it on when she leaves for work in the morning and it stays on
> all day pretty much every day, so I figured it might be stuffed and
> not getting hot enough. Tried a few different irons and still the same
> result. I eventually got enough toner to etch but still the paper
> wasn't sticking like the time when I got the great results. I figured
> perhaps the paper might've been exposed to the air too long? I noticed
> some other photo paper I got with my printer (can't print on it with
> laser though, goes all weird) comes in a foil sealed bag. Maybe all
> photo paper has this problem? My other thoughts were that the copper
> has to be hot too, and perhaps we weren't getting the copper hot
> enough. I was thinking if this is the case, that heating it first with
> a heat gun, then pressing the paper onto it, then ironing it would help.
> 
> Anyone able to help me explain what is happening here or if anyone
> else has had these problems?
> 
> Can anyone else in AU suggest paper that works great? Even printers? I
> am lookign at a laminator soon from Officeworks. Do they make a big
> difference in the results over an iron?
> 
> -Mikey
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Be sure to visit the group home and check for new Links, Files, and Photos:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Homebrew_PCBs
> 
> If Files or Photos are running short of space, post them here:
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> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
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