Doepfer

Hello

yes. MIDI Clock simply does not support shuffle officially. ANd the DT 
will not change its outgoing MIDI clock that way.
Even if there are some custom devices, which add some shuffle to MIDI 
clock. (example http://frequencyresponse.ch/?p=shufflebox). But MIDI 
clock is not intended to behave so, and some devices will not understand 
a shuffled MIDI clock (and won't sync safely to it).

Florian

On 17.05.14 15:05 , raccoon_boy@yahoo.com [Doepfer_a100] wrote:
>
>
> Perhaps it's an issue with my MFB drum machine, but I have a feeling
> it's down to the Dark Time.
>
> When I put shuffle onto the dark time, it does not seem to output this
> shuffle through midi?
>
> This is a bit annoying as my bassline through DT will be swinging but
> not the drums etc.
>
> Does anybody know if there is there a fix/planned update for this?
>
> Also, is there a way to make the Dark Time 'behave' better when it comes
> to external sync? it seems to go out of time a lot (whereas the internal
> clock is perfect), perhaps the MAQ 16/3 has some of these features?
>
> Thanks
>
>

Hi Dan

basically there is no difference between DIN-Sync or MIDI. The problem 
is, that the internal clock and tempo of the slaved devices can be 
derived in many different ways from the master clock. There are direct 
divide down clocks and there are extrapolated tempo translations (like 
the MFB drum machine). And some of the extrapolations use only the time 
dfference between two clock ticks (which will work with a shuffled 
clock), others use the average out of six clock ticks (which will not 
work with an shuffled clock).

As an example: The TR-808/606/TB303 do extrapolation, but they work like 
charm with the shuffle box. The TR909 does stumble with a shuffled 
clock. The Korg EMX does ignore the shuffle a low shuffle amounts, and 
will stop playing at high shuffle amount. The Xbase09 again works 
perfectly with a shuffled clock....

A flawless shuffle can be achieved only by internally generation in the 
slaved device, or with an slaved device that works with direct divide 
down clock.

Florian

On 17.05.14 15:52 , raccoon_boy@yahoo.com [Doepfer_a100] wrote:
>
>
> Interesting, this makes a lot of sense, from my experiences.
>
> I'll look into this shufflebox which I've heard about before.
>
> Are there any alternate approaches to get getting things shuffling in
> sync that are more reliable? or is MIDI our best bet?
>
> Thanks
>
> Dan
>
>

Hello Dan

unfortunately, yes: it is a kind of dark art. I don't know any detailled 
text about that. There are some books about programming for MIDI (but I 
did not read them) and assumingly there are textes about clock 
synchronization in general in the programming world.

To understand this topic, you have to have a deeper knowledge of how 
this gear iw working electronically, you have to be able to read 
schematics (and you have to have read a lot of schematics) and you need 
at least a basic knowledge about programming.

Maybe Dieter or Chris Assall know some sources.

Florian

On 18.05.14 17:08 , raccoon_boy@yahoo.com [Doepfer_a100] wrote:
>
>
> thanks for the info.
>
> Is there anywhere I can read about stuff I can't seem to find much info
> on it. Seems like a dark art.
>
> Cheers
>
>
> Dan
>
>

On 18.05.14 18:42 , draks@apollo111.demon.co.uk [Doepfer_a100] wrote:
> I would email Dave Smith at Dave Smith instruments.
> Isn't he the god of MIDI?
Let us say: Dave Smith is one of the parents of MIDI.

And talking about shuffle in any kind of sequencer or drum machine, is 
not necessarily related to MIDI. MIDI provides only one out of several 
possibilities to transfer a tempo between two machines and to 
synchronize them. And all of them will have the same problem with 
shuffle, because shuffle is basically a contradiction to a good tempo sync.

Florian

I was following this thread a few days back and it happens that just today I ran across this: 

http://www.emusician.com/news/0766/audiowerkstatt-releases-midi-clock-shifter/154856 

I don't know how helpful it may or may not be but I thought I'd pass it along. Looks like a useful gadget in any case! 

Chris 

----- Original Message -----
From: "raccoon_boy@yahoo.com [Doepfer_a100]" <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> 
To: "Doepfer a100" <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> 
Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2014 9:05:53 AM 
Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Dark Time swing output 






Perhaps it's an issue with my MFB drum machine, but I have a feeling it's down to the Dark Time. 

When I put shuffle onto the dark time, it does not seem to output this shuffle through midi? 

This is a bit annoying as my bassline through DT will be swinging but not the drums etc. 

Does anybody know if there is there a fix/planned update for this? 

Also, is there a way to make the Dark Time 'behave' better when it comes to external sync? it seems to go out of time a lot (whereas the internal clock is perfect), perhaps the MAQ 16/3 has some of these features? 

Thanks 


Dan

Presumably one could do something like this using an Ardcore. Anybody tried?

Jonathan Shapero
From my iPad Air

> On 22 May 2014, at 20:51, "Christophe cburke55@comcast.net [Doepfer_a100]" <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> I was following this thread a few days back and it happens that just today I ran across this:
> 
> http://www.emusician.com/news/0766/audiowerkstatt-releases-midi-clock-shifter/154856
> 
> I don't know how helpful it may or may not be but I thought I'd pass it along.  Looks like a useful gadget in any case!
> 
> Chris
> 
> From: "raccoon_boy@yahoo.com [Doepfer_a100]" <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com>
> To: "Doepfer a100" <Doepfer_a100@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2014 9:05:53 AM
> Subject: [Doepfer_a100] Dark Time swing output
> 
> Perhaps it's an issue with my MFB drum machine, but I have a feeling it's down to the Dark Time.
> 
> When I put shuffle onto the dark time, it does not seem to output this shuffle through midi?
> 
> This is a bit annoying as my bassline through DT will be swinging but not the drums etc.
> 
> Does anybody know if there is there a fix/planned update for this?
> 
> Also, is there a way to make the Dark Time 'behave' better when it comes to external sync? it seems to go out of time a lot (whereas the internal clock is perfect), perhaps the MAQ 16/3 has some of these features?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> Dan
> 
> 
> 
>

> Hi Dan
> 
> basically there is no difference between DIN-Sync or MIDI. The problem 
> is, that the internal clock and tempo of the slaved devices can be 
> derived in many different ways from the master clock. There are direct 
> divide down clocks and there are extrapolated tempo translations (like 
> the MFB drum machine). And some of the extrapolations use only the time 
> dfference between two clock ticks (which will work with a shuffled 
> clock), others use the average out of six clock ticks (which will not 
> work with an shuffled clock).
> 
> As an example: The TR-808/606/TB303 do extrapolation, but they work like 
> charm with the shuffle box. The TR909 does stumble with a shuffled 
> clock. The Korg EMX does ignore the shuffle a low shuffle amounts, and 
> will stop playing at high shuffle amount. The Xbase09 again works 
> perfectly with a shuffled clock....
> 
> A flawless shuffle can be achieved only by internally generation in the 
> slaved device, or with an slaved device that works with direct divide 
> down clock.
> 
> Florian

Interesting.  I don't have much appropriate gear to experiment with, but I suspect that some of the more primitive synths use the wonderfully elegant approach of merely counting the clock pulses coming in and, say, incrementing their internal sequencer's cursor every six pulses for 24PPQN and a 16 step sequencer.  That way, they don't need to extrapolate or time anything at all, they're just counting pulses.

At any rate, when I switched to this approach, I was able to greatly simplify my firmware and it works great.

I just don't know for sure if it's what anyone *else* does in their synths. :)

All the best,
Zoë.

On 28.05.14 19:41 , raccoon_boy@yahoo.com [Doepfer_a100] wrote:
>
>
> I've just had the time to do a few wee tests. Turns out the shuffle mode
> on the dark time sends the midi just find to Dark Energy and my Korg
> MS-20, and both of these things play the shuffle just fine too.
>
> However swing has absolutely no effect on the MFB-522. So it must
> interpolate the timing..
>
> I wonder if there is a way to modify this.
>
> Dan
Sorry, but it seems you don't understand MIDI at all.

The Synths do not receive a clock which transmits a tempo, but they 
receive individual notes. Those notes are within the shuffle setting of 
course, because they are created internally (with swing in the DT.

The MFB receives the (straight) clock from the DT, and then creates 
notes for the drums internally. From the point of view of the MIDI 
principles it is the MFB which should create swing, not the DT.

Florian

> Sorry, but it seems you don't understand MIDI at all.
> 
> The Synths do not receive a clock which transmits a tempo, but they 
> receive individual notes.

I don't know about many specific individual synths, but in general, MIDI can indeed send a 24PPQN clock pulse out, which can easily be converted to the DIN sync standard as it's essentially an encoded version of that anyway.  It isn't technically a tempo, but you can count the pulses and increment the cursor in your synth's sequencer accordingly.  This is quite separate, and in addition, to sending out the notes.  Or, for that matter, CC controller/value pairs, or even sysex dumps.

See http://www.gweep.net/~prefect/eng/reference/protocol/midispec.html#Seq for more information on this.

All the best,
Zoë.