Digital BW, The Print

In a message dated 11/27/06 2:31:35 PM, paul.roark@... writes:


> > Assuming that $$$ is not the reason, why would one ever choose
> > to print on matte paper?
> 
> Lack of reflections is one reason.  Sometimes people talk about being able
> to "see into" a matte print.  (What I like to see in a good B&W print is a
> window to a B&W reality, not a piece of paper.)  I think this translates
> into lack of reflections that distract from the image. (Of course, if one
> uses glass, that introduces reflections there also. 
> 

Which is one reason I am moving more and more to matte canvas instead of 
matte art paper: it doesn't require glazing. This reduces reflection issues, but 
also makes larger sizes more practical, since an image can be stretched to 
size, without inflation for the mat size, and glazing with its issues of breakage 
(glass) or scratching and high cost (plexi). Plus frames can be much lighter, 
if used at all, on canvasses. This wasn't of interest to me as long as canvas 
was a slick, artificial surface with limited longevity. But the new matte 
canvasses are longlived, beautifully textured, and offer d-max and detail that 
nearly matches art paper; PLUS: they look great with B&W images, which slick 
canvasses do NOT.

So even if my matte art paper prints are a bit nicer to hold, once finished, 
they are lost behind glass and matte, while the canvas prints are... still the 
canvas. Kind of like a piece of furniture with an oil finish, where the wood 
is still at the surface, versus one with a Urethane finish, where the wood is 
some distance back from the clear coat at the surface.

Lower costs, easier hanging, lighter shipping, freedom from breakage and 
scratching issues, more immediacy of the image... and no reflection issues.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Any suggestions for good matte canvas?

Chris Hargens


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:
>
> 
> In a message dated 11/27/06 2:31:35 PM, paul.roark@... writes:
> 
> 
> > > Assuming that $$$ is not the reason, why would one ever choose
> > > to print on matte paper?
> > 
> > Lack of reflections is one reason.  Sometimes people talk about
being able
> > to "see into" a matte print.  (What I like to see in a good B&W
print is a
> > window to a B&W reality, not a piece of paper.)  I think this
translates
> > into lack of reflections that distract from the image. (Of course,
if one
> > uses glass, that introduces reflections there also. 
> > 
> 
> Which is one reason I am moving more and more to matte canvas
instead of 
> matte art paper: it doesn't require glazing. This reduces reflection
issues, but 
> also makes larger sizes more practical, since an image can be
stretched to 
> size, without inflation for the mat size, and glazing with its
issues of breakage 
> (glass) or scratching and high cost (plexi). Plus frames can be much
lighter, 
> if used at all, on canvasses. This wasn't of interest to me as long
as canvas 
> was a slick, artificial surface with limited longevity. But the new
matte 
> canvasses are longlived, beautifully textured, and offer d-max and
detail that 
> nearly matches art paper; PLUS: they look great with B&W images,
which slick 
> canvasses do NOT.
> 
> So even if my matte art paper prints are a bit nicer to hold, once
finished, 
> they are lost behind glass and matte, while the canvas prints are...
still the 
> canvas. Kind of like a piece of furniture with an oil finish, where
the wood 
> is still at the surface, versus one with a Urethane finish, where
the wood is 
> some distance back from the clear coat at the surface.
> 
> Lower costs, easier hanging, lighter shipping, freedom from breakage
and 
> scratching issues, more immediacy of the image... and no reflection
issues.

> 
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> ColorVision Business Unit
> Datacolor Inc.
> CDTobie@...
> www.colorvision.com
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

At 04:41 PM 11/27/2006, CDTobie@... wrote:

>Which is one reason I am moving more and more to matte canvas instead of
>matte art paper: it doesn't require glazing.

WHY does it not require glazing?

And can you tell us which mat canvas (s) you find most useful.


Arthur Fink

	A r t h u r    F i n k    P h o t o g r a p h y
	-----------------------------------------------
	Ten New Island Avenue         land 207.766.5722
	Peaks Island, Maine 04108     cell 207.615.5722
	www.arthurfinkphoto.com  af@...

	 Photographing people, places, objects, events

I'd also like to know if there are any that don't have such a prominent
canvas texture.  I personally find that texture more annoying than the
glass.  I also have some doubts as to whether such a product would sell as
well as one that is more closely associated with the B&W "fine art"
tradition.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 


>Any suggestions for good matte canvas?

>Chris Hargens

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... wrote:
>
> .
> I am moving more and more to matte canvas
.

In a message dated 11/27/06 6:00:12 PM, af@... writes:


> >Which is one reason I am moving more and more to matte canvas instead of
> >matte art paper: it doesn't require glazing.
> 
> WHY does it not require glazing?
> 
Because its a stretched canvas, not paper behind matte, behind glass... in 
effect, its exhibited as an oil painting, not a watercolor...
> 
> And can you tell us which mat canvas (s) you find most useful.
> 
Sorry, not at this time (see other post)...

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Breathing Color Chromata White. You can even use PK if you don't want 
to switch out the black inks (assuming you're using PK already). 

http://www.breathingcolor.com/bc/catalog/index.php?cPath=303

I'm using a 4800 w/PK and coating the prints with a couple of the 
Golden products.

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "tzinzunzan2006" 
<tzinzunzan2006@...> wrote:
>
> Any suggestions for good matte canvas?
> 
> Chris Hargens
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@ wrote:
> >
> > 
> > In a message dated 11/27/06 2:31:35 PM, paul.roark@ writes:
> > 
> > 
> > > > Assuming that $$$ is not the reason, why would one ever choose
> > > > to print on matte paper?
> > > 
> > > Lack of reflections is one reason.  Sometimes people talk about
> being able
> > > to "see into" a matte print.  (What I like to see in a good B&W
> print is a
> > > window to a B&W reality, not a piece of paper.)  I think this
> translates
> > > into lack of reflections that distract from the image. (Of 
course,
> if one
> > > uses glass, that introduces reflections there also. 
> > > 
> > 
> > Which is one reason I am moving more and more to matte canvas
> instead of 
> > matte art paper: it doesn't require glazing. This reduces 
reflection
> issues, but 
> > also makes larger sizes more practical, since an image can be
> stretched to 
> > size, without inflation for the mat size, and glazing with its
> issues of breakage 
> > (glass) or scratching and high cost (plexi). Plus frames can be 
much
> lighter, 
> > if used at all, on canvasses. This wasn't of interest to me as 
long
> as canvas 
> > was a slick, artificial surface with limited longevity. But the 
new
> matte 
> > canvasses are longlived, beautifully textured, and offer d-max and
> detail that 
> > nearly matches art paper; PLUS: they look great with B&W images,
> which slick 
> > canvasses do NOT.
> > 
> > So even if my matte art paper prints are a bit nicer to hold, once
> finished, 
> > they are lost behind glass and matte, while the canvas prints 
are...
> still the 
> > canvas. Kind of like a piece of furniture with an oil finish, 
where
> the wood 
> > is still at the surface, versus one with a Urethane finish, where
> the wood is 
> > some distance back from the clear coat at the surface.
> > 
> > Lower costs, easier hanging, lighter shipping, freedom from 
breakage
> and 
> > scratching issues, more immediacy of the image... and no 
reflection

> issues.
> > 
> > C. David Tobie
> > Product Technology Manager
> > ColorVision Business Unit
> > Datacolor Inc.
> > CDTobie@
> > www.colorvision.com
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

And they all look so much like framed wallpaper.  Sorry but for me, canvas
is for painting on (or making retro tents).

From: scott_now_coming <scott_now_coming@...>
Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 23:17:15 -0000
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: why print on matte paper? when you can use matte
canvas...

 
 
 

Breathing Color Chromata White. You can even use PK if you don't want
to switch out the black inks (assuming you're using PK already).

http://www.breathingcolor.com/bc/catalog/index.php?cPath=303

I'm using a 4800 w/PK and coating the prints with a couple of the
Golden products.

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com> , "tzinzunzan2006"
<tzinzunzan2006@...> wrote:
>
> Any suggestions for good matte canvas?
> 
> Chris Hargens



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>Any suggestions for good matte canvas?

Today I received two sample prints from HP, and one is on their
"Artist Matte Canvas".  It is gorgeous and I find the texture not
objectionable at all.  I can't say how it compares to others, but it's
certainly worth considering.

How do you get it through the printer?


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Here in Australia, canvas prints seem to sell well, as they are the 
current vogue with purchasers. Though I am not sure if they are the 
fine art collectors that are in the fine art tradition.

Regards,

Len

www.leonardmetcalf.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> 
> I'd also like to know if there are any that don't have such a 
prominent
> canvas texture.  I personally find that texture more annoying than 
the
> glass.  I also have some doubts as to whether such a product would 
sell as
> well as one that is more closely associated with the B&W "fine art"
> tradition.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> 
> >Any suggestions for good matte canvas?
> 
> >Chris Hargens
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@ 
wrote:

> >
> > .
> > I am moving more and more to matte canvas
> .
>

Steve,

Everyone has an opinion.

I guess it all depends on what canvas you're using and what subjects 
you're printing.

The portraits I print on canvas look better than any paper I used 
(Epson, Silver Rag....).

But, then, I'm printing in color.

Although, a friend has a b&w portrait of her two childern, a studio 
shot, printed on canvas and I think it looks real nice.

As far as canvas looking like wallpaper, I don't have any in my home, 
so maybe I don't mind a few canvas portraits hanging here and there.

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@...> wrote:
>
> And they all look so much like framed wallpaper.  Sorry but for me, 
canvas
> is for painting on (or making retro tents).
> 
> 
> 
> From: scott_now_coming <scott_now_coming@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 23:17:15 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: why print on matte paper? when you can 
use matte
> canvas...
> 
>  
>  
>  
> 
> Breathing Color Chromata White. You can even use PK if you don't 
want
> to switch out the black inks (assuming you're using PK already).
> 
> http://www.breathingcolor.com/bc/catalog/index.php?cPath=303
> 
> I'm using a 4800 w/PK and coating the prints with a couple of the
> Golden products.
> 
> Scott
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%
40yahoogroups.com> , "tzinzunzan2006"

> <tzinzunzan2006@> wrote:
> >
> > Any suggestions for good matte canvas?
> > 
> > Chris Hargens
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... 
wrote:
>
> 
> In a message dated 11/27/06 6:00:12 PM, af@... writes:
> 
> 
> > >Which is one reason I am moving more and more to matte canvas 
instead of
> > >matte art paper: it doesn't require glazing.
> > 
> > WHY does it not require glazing?
> > 
> Because its a stretched canvas, not paper behind matte, behind 
glass... in 
> effect, its exhibited as an oil painting, not a watercolor...

I had the same question and I still don't understand. I would expect 
a matte coating would be needed. The canvas itself isof course strong 
enoguth. But the difference with an oil painting is that in the 
painting there is a VERY thick layer of pigments. Tiny scratches just 
don't have an effect. The pigment layer of an inkjet canvas is MUCH 
thinner and therefor much more vulnerable.

Joost

Clayton Jones wrote:
>> Any suggestions for good matte canvas?
> 
> Today I received two sample prints from HP, and one is on their
> "Artist Matte Canvas".  It is gorgeous and I find the texture not
> objectionable at all.  I can't say how it compares to others, but it's
> certainly worth considering.
> 
> How do you get it through the printer?

It is good. The Hahnemuhle Artist Matt canvas has a slightly 
better image but the HP is much cheaper. We had some problems 
with HP batches that cracked more so now we use Intellicoat's 
Magicl\ufffde Torino Canvas Matt UV that's also a bit heavier = 374 
grams/m2, polycotton. Their range of roll sizes is impressive 
too. Avoid the cheaper Hahnemuhle canvas varieties, they dry 
incredibly slow (especially with the 9000 MIS quad I have 
here, at the edge of inklimit I guess), I'm told that the 
cheaper HM canvas has just one coating layer and the good one 
above has 3 like the good HM papers.
The Magic coating has been tested by Wilhelm, one of the few.

There are lots of good canvasses around but prices differ a 
lot too on good and bad. Fuji-Hunt has nice ones, Oc\ufffd send me 
two good trial rolls. HP + Sihl recently introduced 3 new 
qualities here. Sihl is the coater for Hahnemuhle so usually 
has the same coating level but price likewise.

 From all the canvas suppliers I get the information that 
quality Indian canvas is hard to get and they all face the 
same problem. Using polycotton = polyester + cotton fabric is 
one way to get around without quality loss.

I'm using Lascaux's 6xxx varnishes, apply them with an air 
gun. First a layer of gloss and then a layer of matte. Drying 
with the silkscreen dryer tunnel. Total gloss on a quad print 
is nice too, use not too heavy texture and not too much 
varnish, getting deep blacks. Image is much more protected and 
with some nice edge printing and good stretcher bars I do not 
find it cheap. Frames sometimes distract and in this case you 
get the image and little more. It just isn't suited for every 
image or artist.

I've made QTR profiles for the quad printer for the Magic 
canvas: gloss, mat/satin and without varnish

With most canvasses the transport is no problem from the roll. 
The image has to be extended in the transport direction with 
0,5 -1% as the canvas is rolled tight and will shrink in the 
printing process. Trying to print left overs isn't a good idea 
in some cases. They warp.

Met vriendelijke groeten,  Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

In a message dated 11/28/06 1:29:25 AM, j.h.j.h@... writes:


> I had the same question and I still don't understand. I would expect
> a matte coating would be needed. The canvas itself isof course strong
> enoguth. But the difference with an oil painting is that in the
> painting there is a VERY thick layer of pigments. Tiny scratches just
> don't have an effect. The pigment layer of an inkjet canvas is MUCH
> thinner and therefor much more vulnerable.
> 

I don't find inkjet print on canvas to be as durable as most oil paintings; 
but durable enough for display. Some people spray with a matte fixative, but 
definately avoid a thick varnish (as would be used on a gesso canvas) as it 
ruins the matte look and intimate texture. I'll have more input on durability in a 
few years... By the way, I do also matte and frame such canvas prints, as I 
would art paper, but thats a different effect entirely.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Interesting topic which I know very little about. I have some questions.  Some people print on canvas then stretch it.  Others do not. What are the advantages and disadvantages of doing either? If you don't stretch it with stretcher bars, how do you mount and hang it? Excuse my total igorance. I print with the Epson 2400 in case there are things specific to the type of printer.

Thank you,
Charlotte





www.charlottewhitaker.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Charlotte" 
<cieloblu@...> wrote:
>
> Interesting topic which I know very little about. I have some 
questions.  Some people print on canvas then stretch it.  Others do 
not. What are the advantages and disadvantages of doing either? If you 
don't stretch it with stretcher bars, how do you mount and hang it? 
Excuse my total igorance. I print with the Epson 2400 in case there are 
things specific to the type of printer.
> 
> Thank you,
> Charlotte
> 

I've read a few things about this, but to get a good answer you would 
need to hear from some painters and conservators. Some people prefer 
stretched canvas on open bars, others prefer to mount on "solid" wood 
backing. There were reasons for each, but I don't really know enough 
about it to try and explain. But that might give you some keywords for 
a web search.

I did a series of canvas (BC chromata) prints awhile ago using 13x19  
inch sheets printed with MIS K4 inks in my 2400 and 4000.  I just  
mounted the canvas prints to adhesive coated gatorfoam, trimmed  
flush, sprayed with matte fixative, and then displayed in frames  
without matte or glazing.  I didn't like the high OBA, bright white  
coating of the BC canvas, but otherwise worked fine.

Carl

On Nov 28, 2006, at 11:48 AM, Charlotte wrote:

> Interesting topic which I know very little about. I have some  
> questions.  Some people print on canvas then stretch it.  Others do  
> not. What are the advantages and disadvantages of doing either? If  
> you don't stretch it with stretcher bars, how do you mount and hang  
> it? Excuse my total igorance. I print with the Epson 2400 in case  
> there are things specific to the type of printer.
>
> Thank you,
> Charlotte

David,

In this old post you refer to a new mat canvas coming up. It's now 
almost a year later. Has this "magic canvas" been released by now? If 
so, what brand and type?

Joost


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... 
wrote:
>
> 
> In a message dated 11/27/06 6:00:12 PM, af@... writes:
> 
> 
> > >Which is one reason I am moving more and more to matte canvas 
instead of
> > >matte art paper: it doesn't require glazing.
> > 
> > WHY does it not require glazing?
> > 
> Because its a stretched canvas, not paper behind matte, behind 
glass... in 

> effect, its exhibited as an oil painting, not a watercolor...
> > 
> > And can you tell us which mat canvas (s) you find most useful.
> > 
> Sorry, not at this time (see other post)...
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> ColorVision Business Unit
> Datacolor Inc.
> CDTobie@...
> www.colorvision.com
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

In a message dated 10/4/07 7:11:08 AM, j.h.j.h@... writes:


> 
> In this old post you refer to a new mat canvas coming up. It's now
> almost a year later. Has this "magic canvas" been released by now? If
> so, what brand and type?
> 

Same question, twice in one week, after not being asked in a year. There are 
more than one matte/nongesso canvas on the market at this point, so "magic" 
would be a bit strong. But feel free to stop by at PhotoPlus and take a look at 
the sample prints in the Datacolor booth, or wait for new canvas product 
announcements. Not from Datacolor, of course, since its not a media company, but we 
have to print our sample prints on something. <G>

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com




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In a message dated 10/4/07 11:05:55 AM, paul.roark@... writes:


> The only one I've tested has a weak dmax.
> 
There is a clear d-max differential between gloss and matte papers (a matte 
paper with a lower d-max looks darker than a gloss paper with that low a 
d-max); and I suspect there is a similar measured d-max/ visual d-max differential 
between paper and ungessoed canvas, due to the canvas texture. But 
subjectively, the best of the matte canvasses I've been seeing look very much like fine 
art paper prints, in visual d-max, color gamut, and even (most suprisingly) in 
image detail.
> 
> I'm seeing more B&W being displayed simply on canvass that is wrapped around
> stretcher bars.  It's simple, but -- just subjectively -- the aesthetics
> don't appeal to me.
> 
I'm not fond of wrapping the image itself around the stretchers, I prefer 
gallery wrap with black tape edging. This tends to be thought of, in art circles, 
as a temporary edging, allowing the purchaser to choose a frame which relates 
to the room the canvas is placed in, and the other art its displayed with.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@colorvision.com
www.colorvision.com



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> ... Has this "magic canvas" been released by now? 

The only one I've tested has a weak dmax.

I'm seeing more B&W being displayed simply on canvass that is wrapped around
stretcher bars.  It's simple, but -- just subjectively -- the aesthetics
don't appeal to me.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Hi David,

Sorry if I missed something (did a search before my question and 
checked after your reply cut could not find something in the last 
few weeks). Thanks for the suggestion, but I'm afraid that being 
Netherlands based I won't manage. Any specific suggestion for types 
I should check out?

Joost  


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, CDTobie@... 
wrote:
>
> 
> In a message dated 10/4/07 7:11:08 AM, j.h.j.h@... writes:
> 
> 
> > 
> > In this old post you refer to a new mat canvas coming up. It's 
now
> > almost a year later. Has this "magic canvas" been released by 
now? If
> > so, what brand and type?
> > 
> 
> Same question, twice in one week, after not being asked in a year. 
There are 
> more than one matte/nongesso canvas on the market at this point, 
so "magic" 
> would be a bit strong. But feel free to stop by at PhotoPlus and 
take a look at 
> the sample prints in the Datacolor booth, or wait for new canvas 
product 
> announcements. Not from Datacolor, of course, since its not a 
media company, but we 
> have to print our sample prints on something. <G>
>

In a message dated 10/4/07 12:26:45 PM, j.h.j.h@... writes:


> Any specific suggestion for types
> I should check out?
> 

Unfortunately not, at this time. Sorry!

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


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