Digital BW, The Print

I'm going to ask a dumbie question here.  Having been a mono printer for 
years, but without using a toned inkset, I'd like to know what the 
alternatives are today with the newest printers.  I suppose I should add 
'reasonably priced' but one person's reasonable is another person's 'way out 
of range', so I guess its fairest to just ask for alternatives and leave the 
'reasonable' up to each individual.  I'm referencing David's post but 
changing the subject (knowing, as several of you say here, that he does have 
a dog in this fight LOL).

I know there are new folks on this forum--some I've sent here myself.  There 
are also those of us contemplating changing the ways we print and so would 
like to understand all the alternatives.  I do understand the limitations of 
using a fixed toneset.  I, for one, have been contemplating switching my 
soon to be replaced 2200 with the Piezography split tone K7 and/or mixed 
sets (I'm following the conversations here and other places about the 
possibilities).  However, though I know my new printer won't be supported 
immediately by all the alternatives, I'd appreciate knowing, for instance, 
what is available, what is highly recommended for the 4800.  (I use QTR at 
present--so know this is one alternative).

I know that long searches bring up a lot of this information, but it would 
be helpful to have some recommendations in one thread, easily accessible.

TIA for anyone's input.

Diane

<<<<To me this kind of decision is like choosing whether I'm going to eat
chocolate ice cream indefinately, or vanilla. Of maybe, if I only get one, I 
should
get Chocolate Swirl... The real answer is I want to determine the tint or
crosstint on an image by image basis, not in advance, for an indefinate 
period.
Unless you have a single, preferred tonality in advance, then installing a 
fixed
tone inkset (ANY fixed tone inkset) is a very limiting choice!

C. David Tobie

Diane,
Are you asking for alternatives to a fixed tone set, or fixed tone
alternatives?  I’ll assume the former.

Do you already own monitor and printer calibration tools?  If not, put UT-3D
in your 2200, buy the printfix pro suite, and drive it with the OEM driver.
Printfix has a 30-day money back guarantee IIRC.  It won’t get much better
than that for risk, cost, and ease of use.  It would make the most sense to
do that after your 3800 arrives and is checked out.

Best regards,
John Moody

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Diane
Fields
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 10:44 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] alternatives to fixed tone inkset printing

I'm going to ask a dumbie question here. Having been a mono printer for
years, but without using a toned inkset, I'd like to know what the
alternatives are today with the newest printers. I suppose I should add
'reasonably priced' but one person's reasonable is another person's 'way out
of range', so I guess its fairest to just ask for alternatives and leave the
'reasonable' up to each individual. I'm referencing David's post but
changing the subject (knowing, as several of you say here, that he does have
a dog in this fight LOL).

I know there are new folks on this forum--some I've sent here myself. There
are also those of us contemplating changing the ways we print and so would
like to understand all the alternatives. I do understand the limitations of
using a fixed toneset. I, for one, have been contemplating switching my
soon to be replaced 2200 with the Piezography split tone K7 and/or mixed
sets (I'm following the conversations here and other places about the
possibilities). However, though I know my new printer won't be supported
immediately by all the alternatives, I'd appreciate knowing, for instance,
what is available, what is highly recommended for the 4800. (I use QTR at
present--so know this is one alternative).

I know that long searches bring up a lot of this information, but it would
be helpful to have some recommendations in one thread, easily accessible.

TIA for anyone's input.

Diane



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 11/27/06 11:07:32 AM, picnic@... writes:


> I'm going to ask a dumbie question here. 
> 

Not dumb, just really broad...

>  Having been a mono printer for
> years, but without using a toned inkset, I'd like to know what the
> alternatives are today with the newest printers.  I suppose I should add
> 'reasonably priced' but one person's reasonable is another person's 'way out
> of range', so I guess its fairest to just ask for alternatives and leave the
> 'reasonable' up to each individual.  I'm referencing David's post but
> changing the subject (knowing, as several of you say here, that he does have
> a dog in this fight LOL).
> 
> I have several dogs, and not all on the same team, actually. And this looks 
more like Doggie Daycare than a dogfight, most of the time. <G>

It can probably be split and organized a number of ways. But you said newest 
printers, so I'll try to stick to the solutions for the latest printers with 
at least two levels of gray:

OEM Only: This means using the manufacturer's inks (or something darned 
close), and whatever B&W printing method they provide. Not bad, but there a lack of 
controls, no cross-tints, no preview, and some other advanced complaints. 
This is certainly a good place to start if you buy an Epson 
2400/3800/4800/7800/9800, any Canon iPF printer, or either width of HP Z3100. This list is a bit   
short on smaller models, but the only other "dog" in that category is the new 
HP B9180, and it IS NOT a two gray printer, so its not quite in the category I 
describe above, and its B&W mode is fixed, single tone, neutrality defined by 
the paper involved. So no tintability, without using color mode, which 
creates its light grays from Light Cyan, Light Magenta, and Yellow, as earlier 
Epsons did.

OEM inks, RIP control: This used to offer more improvement than it does 
today, as OEM drivers learn most of the tricks that were advantages for the RIPs 
previously. I don't expect to see this gaining a lot of new users, mostly those 
who already own a RIP, and prefer the convenience of its layout capabilities. 
I have NO IDEA which RIPs currently support which new printers and which 
inksets, and don't even want to try to keep such a list in my head. Research is 
necessary, and a few users you trust who are already using a specific combo 
successfully!

Tinted Inks, RIP control: again, not as much advantage as it used to offer 
over OEM inks, since the OEM inks now use grays for the core of their B&W 
output. Can be viewed as creamier, more detailed, or otherwise superior to OEM inks, 
expecially at very close range, due to more grays to work with. How the RIP 
and inks interact determine what is needed to control tints. Can be as simple 
as choosing an item from a popdown list, or as complex as building a small 
boat...

And now to the variations that could be viewed as "my dogs" on this list:

OEM Inks, ICC control: Same limitations as any OEM inks choice, in terms of 
only two grays, and slightly "thinner" resulting prints, for those situations 
where this might be a factor. Same advantages of both color and all types of B&
W from one printer. Added advantages of standard ICC workflow like color 
images, preview of images like color via ICC, easy tinting, and visual feedback on 
it. Requires an ICC tool, ideally one that has B&W features. Not too many of 
those out there at the moment...

Tinted Inks, ICC Control: Avoids that issue of "thinness" in gray printing, 
but also limits printer to only gray and tinted gray prints. Offers many of the 
ICC advantages of the category above. Gamut limited to inkset's range. Even 
smaller choice of inksets and ICC tools to do this; in fact at the moment, I 
can't guarantee anything except PrintFIX PRO 2.0, and MIS UT3D; and there are 
limited printers supported by this inkset, at this time. There are a couple of 
simple OEM driver tinted sets that just used canned settings or profiles, but 
they are really beginners sets, and as an advanced user, they probably wouldn't 
interest you, and aren't for the latest printers. (anything with EZ in the 
name... <G>)

I can't think of any other categories, but I may have missed one...

So at the moment, I would recommend starting out with an Epson 2400 or 3800 
as the low end threshold, trying its AWB mode, and then moving forward as you 
see fit into one or another of the other options. Keep in mind that this is 
based on you specifying the latest printers.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Diane - I've been happy using ImagePrint's toning and split toning
capabilities.  It's not that easy to use their preview image to see how
things are going to go color-wise, but with experimentation you can come up
with some very subtle and interesting toning effects.  I'm mostly using a
7800 and K3 inks on Innova Photo Smooth Cotton paper.

Hello CDavid,

Excellent overview, a good clear picture of the current printing
landscape.


>...Can be as simple as choosing an item from a popdown list, or as 
>complex as building a small boat...

LOL!  I like that.


>So at the moment, I would recommend starting out with an Epson 2400 
>or 3800 as the low end threshold, trying its AWB mode, and then 
>moving forward as you see fit into one or another of the other 
>options. 

I agree, this is good advice.  Spending some initial time learning the
ins and outs of ABW will provide a good foundation upon which to judge
other systems.  Nothing to lose and much to gain.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

<<Not dumb, just really broad...

Sorry, that was a very broad question...

<<<It can probably be split and organized a number of ways. But you said 
newest
printers, so I'll try to stick to the solutions for the latest printers with
<<at least two levels of gray:

The post was very helpful.  I think its become very confusing for anyone 
thinking of entering fine art b/w printing or even those that are not 
completely centered on b/w but have been more than casual mono printers for 
a number of years---but don't work in volume with  multiple printers.

Diane

Clayton,


>>>So at the moment, I would recommend starting out with an Epson 2400
>>>>or 3800 as the low end threshold, trying its AWB mode, and then
>>>>moving forward as you see fit into one or another of the other
>>>>>options.

>I agree, this is good advice.  Spending some initial time learning the
ins and outs of ABW will provide a good foundation upon which to judge
>other systems.  Nothing to lose and much to gain.

This is where I plan to start.  Never having had the option of ABW before, 
the alternative that I used was QTR.  However, I now also have an extra 
worthy printer (2200) so am considering the possibility of whether I will 
want/need it--and perhaps not.  My 1280 has been put out to pasture.

Best, Diane

In a message dated 11/27/06 1:04:22 PM, cj@... writes:


> Hello CDavid,
> 
> Excellent overview, a good clear picture of the current printing
> landscape.
> 
Thank you, having gone to pains to get a good clear picture of the current B&
W printing landscape over the last year, someone might as well benefit from 
it; after all, I'm too busy to write a book about it. (That chore falls to 
another list member <G>).
> 
> 
> >...Can be as simple as choosing an item from a popdown list, or as
> >complex as building a small boat...
> 
> LOL!  I like that.
> 
> I'm not trying to be unkind here. In fact, as a former fine woodworker, a 
former architect, and a resident of the premier wooden boat building region, I 
don't find building a small boat a particularly daunting task; quite fun 
actually. But: like some methods of B&W printing, it requires a whole lot of 
background knowledge, a specific skillset, and the right tools. Which is why 
boatbuilding popped into my head when I was writing that. 

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

When my 7500 was at risk of crashing, I was close to getting the 3800.  It
looks like a platform that can provide an excellent path to the best there
is.  It has all the flexibility needed for multiple workflows to can take it
to the top.  

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  

 

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Diane
Fields
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 10:36 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] alternatives to fixed tone inkset printing

 

Clayton,

>>>So at the moment, I would recommend starting out with an Epson 2400
>>>>or 3800 as the low end threshold, trying its AWB mode, and then
>>>>moving forward as you see fit into one or another of the other
>>>>>options.

>I agree, this is good advice. Spending some initial time learning the
ins and outs of ABW will provide a good foundation upon which to judge
>other systems. Nothing to lose and much to gain.

This is where I plan to start. Never having had the option of ABW before, 
the alternative that I used was QTR. However, I now also have an extra 
worthy printer (2200) so am considering the possibility of whether I will 
want/need it--and perhaps not. My 1280 has been put out to pasture.

Best, Diane

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 11/27/06 1:31:34 PM, picnic@... writes:


> The post was very helpful.  I think its become very confusing
> 
This field has been splintered for years. Just a listing of all the B&W 
systems Jon Cone has developed over the years would be enough to leave anyone but 
an expert catatonic. So, yes, its confusing, but no, its not likely to get much 
simpler any time soon, and I'm not sure we want it to; variety is a good 
thing, even when it makes picking a phone plan a trauma.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@colorvision.com
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

CDavid,

>>>...Can be as simple as choosing an item from a popdown list, or as
>>>complex as building a small boat...

>I'm not trying to be unkind here. In fact, as a former fine
>woodworker, a former architect, and a resident of the premier 
>wooden boat building region, I don't find building a small boat a 
>particularly daunting task; quite fun actually. But: like some 
>methods of B&W printing, it requires a whole lot of background 
>knowledge, a specific skillset, and the right tools. Which is why 
>boatbuilding popped into my head when I was writing that. 

I have built two small boats in my lifetime and have a real
appreciation for the art and craft of it.  So I had an immediate grok
to your analogy (do you remember what grok means?)


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

In a message dated 11/27/06 7:58:30 PM, cj@... writes:


> I have built two small boats in my lifetime and have a real
> appreciation for the art and craft of it.  So I had an immediate grok
> to your analogy (do you remember what grok means?)
> 

Sadly, I do. <G> Kind of dates us to that 'Stranger in a Strange Land' 
generation, doesn't it?

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Division
DataColor Inc.
CDTobie@colorvision.com
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]