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2006-03-16 by wwodets
I am wondering if people have experience archiving image files on DVD as opposed to CD. Is the DVD less reliable data storage? After transferring many CDs to DVDs, PS is suddenly unable to read the DVDs and I get a "Cyclic redundancy check" error. And yes, I've still got all the CDs. Experience would be much appreciated. Thanks, Walt
2006-03-17 by Andrew S. Webb
On 3/16/06 at 11:22 PM GMT wwodets arranged some pixels so they looked like this: >I am wondering if people have experience archiving image files on DVD >as opposed to CD. Is the DVD less reliable data storage? After >transferring many CDs to DVDs, PS is suddenly unable to read the DVDs >and I get a "Cyclic redundancy check" error. And yes, I've still got >all the CDs. > >Experience would be much appreciated. > I archive to DVD all the time and never have any problems. Been doing it for a couple three years now. What are you using to burn with? (Hardware & software) Are you verifying your burns? Are you using stick-on labels? Are you trying to read in the same drive that wrote the DVDs? Have the DVDs seen direct sunlight for any length of time? Have you used and weird corrosive markers on the DVDs? (Sharpies seem to work dandy, but I keep hearing that they are a danger. I roll my media over every couple of years, so I'm not too worried about it.) Cheers, _andrew webb --------------------------- WebbWorks Words & Pictures mailto:andrew@... http://www.webbwork.com
2006-03-17 by Barbara Woolner
I've used an SK168-ll from MIS for the past couple of years. The last time I used it the light was a bit sluggish but it worked. Today I can't get the light, red or green, to come on. Do these things eventually just stop working? If that's the case I'll re-order from MIS. It's too late for their tech support now and I'm an impatient sort when it comes to questions. Thanks. Barbara Woolner
2006-03-17 by hogarth@snappydsl.net
Replace the battery? -- Bruce Watson Barbara Woolner wrote:
> > I've used an SK168-ll from MIS for the past couple of years. The last > time > I used it the light was a bit sluggish but it worked. Today I can't > get the > light, red or green, to come on. Do these things eventually just stop > working? If that's the case I'll re-order from MIS. It's too late for > their > tech support now and I'm an impatient sort when it comes to questions. > Thanks. > > Barbara Woolner
2006-03-17 by Greg
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Barbara Woolner" <bfwoolner@...> wrote: > > > I've used an SK168-ll from MIS for the past couple of years. The last time > I used it the light was a bit sluggish but it worked. Today I can't get the > light, red or green, to come on. Do these things eventually just stop > working? If that's the case I'll re-order from MIS. It's too late for their > tech support now and I'm an impatient sort when it comes to questions. > Thanks. > > Barbara Woolner > Yes, they stop working as there is a battery inside (somewhere). Cut it open and replace the battery. If you destroy it, nothing lost since you are ready to buy a new one now. I've never done this, so I can't help with specifics, but somewhere in there is a battery that will eventually run out of energy.
2006-03-17 by John Moody
DVDs are much better for archival life. Of course you should always full-bit verify after burn. For important things, you may want to create, or use software that implements MD5 checksums; that is pretty good stuff. The government (NIST) has a rather large program evaluating the whole topic; go to http://www.itl.nist.gov/div895/ and click on digital data preservation. Have fun. :-) Best regards, John Moody
-----Original Message----- From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of wwodets Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 6:23 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Digital BW] Archiving images on DVD? I am wondering if people have experience archiving image files on DVD as opposed to CD. Is the DVD less reliable data storage? After transferring many CDs to DVDs, PS is suddenly unable to read the DVDs and I get a "Cyclic redundancy check" error. And yes, I've still got all the CDs. Experience would be much appreciated. Thanks, Walt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2006-03-17 by Greg
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "wwodets" <odets@...> wrote: > > I am wondering if people have experience archiving image files on DVD > as opposed to CD. Is the DVD less reliable data storage? After > transferring many CDs to DVDs, PS is suddenly unable to read the DVDs > and I get a "Cyclic redundancy check" error. And yes, I've still got > all the CDs. > > Experience would be much appreciated. > > Thanks, > Walt > DVD+-R is is currently less stable than some CD disks. If you want greater longevity with the larger storage, use one of the phase change technology disks like DVD-RW or DVD-RAM. And once again it pays to buy high quality disks, and not the cheapest that can be found.
2006-03-17 by Barbara Woolner
Thanks to Bruce and Greg for your responses. I've opened it but the battery is not evident and I haven't "played" with it more than that. I'll reorder and then take the thing apart. Barbara
-----Original Message----- From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of hogarth@... Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 4:14 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Digital BW] OT Chip Resetter Replace the battery? -- Bruce Watson Barbara Woolner wrote: > > I've used an SK168-ll from MIS for the past couple of years. The last > time > I used it the light was a bit sluggish but it worked. Today I can't > get the > light, red or green, to come on. Do these things eventually just stop > working? If that's the case I'll re-order from MIS. It's too late for > their > tech support now and I'm an impatient sort when it comes to questions. > Thanks. > > Barbara Woolner Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. Please follow these basic guidelines: - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice. - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership. - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. Yahoo! Groups Links
2006-03-17 by Barbara Woolner
<Replace the battery? -- Bruce Watson> Bingo! Three (3) AG3 Button Cell watch batteries. One seemed to be glued in place, one was corroded. Will replace and update. Barbara Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. Please follow these basic guidelines: - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice. - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership. - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. Yahoo! Groups Links
2006-03-17 by Barbara Woolner
Thanks, Bob. I found them, there are 3 and one hot glued in. Will replace tomorrow. Barbara
-----Original Message----- From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bob Michaels Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 7:02 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Digital BW] OT Chip Resetter The battery is very evident in mine as I remember. There's not much inside. The battery fell out of the clip when I got mine new. I had to just open it up and reinsert the battery. So look again. Bob Michaels --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Barbara Woolner" <bfwoolner@...> wrote: > > Thanks to Bruce and Greg for your responses. I've opened it but the battery > is not evident and I haven't "played" with it more than that. I'll reorder > and then take the thing apart. > > Barbara > > -----Original Message----- > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of > hogarth@... > Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 4:14 PM > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] OT Chip Resetter > > Replace the battery? > -- > Bruce Watson > > > Barbara Woolner wrote: > > > > > I've used an SK168-ll from MIS for the past couple of years. The last > > time > > I used it the light was a bit sluggish but it worked. Today I can't > > get the > > light, red or green, to come on. Do these things eventually just stop > > working? If that's the case I'll re-order from MIS. It's too late for > > their > > tech support now and I'm an impatient sort when it comes to questions. > > Thanks. > > > > Barbara Woolner Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. Please follow these basic guidelines: - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice. - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership. - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. Yahoo! Groups Links
2006-03-17 by aromanocpa@optonline.net
From my current studies I have read the saving onto DVD or CD is a wast of time. They don't last as long as we are all led to believe. You are better off getting a 200gig drive and saving your images their. Art [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2006-03-17 by Gary Brown
----- Original Message -----
From: <aromanocpa@...> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 9:12 AM Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Archiving images on DVD? >From my current studies I have read the saving onto DVD or CD is a wast of >time. They don't last as long as we are >all led to believe. You are better >off getting a 200gig drive and saving your images their. >Art Would you care to elaborate a bit further, where did you find this information. Its sound very inaccurate (I am trying to be polite). Gary www.pbase.com/garyallenbrown
2006-03-17 by Rob
He's right Gary. Not all recordable DVDs are created equal. None should be considered a long term archival solution. DVD/CDs all decay. Their failure rate is quite high. However, if you insist on using DVDs for backup storage, to improve your chances, you should always uses the highest quality writable media available. For more information on that, see: http://www.best-dvd-burning-software-reviews.com/best-blank-dvd- media.asp or (shortened) http://tinyurl.com/7lssl And if you do decide to use DVD/CD for backups, you should always have backups of your backups. Rob Greer http://www.robgreer.com/ --- "Gary Brown" <baffin@...> wrote: > Would you care to elaborate a bit further, where did you find this > information. Its sound very inaccurate (I am trying to be polite). >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >From my current studies I have read the saving onto DVD or CD is a wast of >> >time. They don't last as long as we are >all led to believe. You are better >> >off getting a 200gig drive and saving your images their.
2006-03-18 by how786
I would think that the best DVD media currently available are the new Mitsui Gold Archive Grade. The reflective layer is comprised of 24 karat gold, which allows maximum resistance to chemical breakdown -- one of the major causes of disc failure. Along with choosing the right recording dye material and bonding agent (Note: A DVD-R is made of two polycarbonate discs bonded together) the long-term stability of the reflective layer is crucial. Reflective layers using your standard "silver" surface are subject to oxidation (rust) over a long period of exposure to moisture. Unlike silver jewelry, a gold ring won't rust and neither will the gold reflective layer in this disc. In optical discs, the use of gold can triple the life of a standard disc. Best Howard --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" <digitalblackandwhitetheprint@...> wrote:
> > He's right Gary. Not all recordable DVDs are created equal. None > should be considered a long term archival solution. DVD/CDs all > decay. Their failure rate is quite high. However, if you insist on > using DVDs for backup storage, to improve your chances, you should > always uses the highest quality writable media available. For more > information on that, see: > > http://www.best-dvd-burning-software-reviews.com/best-blank-dvd- > media.asp > > or (shortened) > > http://tinyurl.com/7lssl > > And if you do decide to use DVD/CD for backups, you should always > have backups of your backups. > > Rob Greer > http://www.robgreer.com/ > > --- "Gary Brown" <baffin@> wrote: > > > Would you care to elaborate a bit further, where did you find this > > information. Its sound very inaccurate (I am trying to be polite). > > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> > >> >From my current studies I have read the saving onto DVD or CD is > a wast of > >> >time. They don't last as long as we are >all led to believe. You > are better > >> >off getting a 200gig drive and saving your images their. >
2006-03-18 by wwodets
Howard- Your post is verbatim the advertising copy from the MAM-A Inc. website, the (presumed) manufacturer of the disks with which I had an extremely high rate of data corruption. I would not recommend these discs--with the very common Phillips recorder I used they showed about a 75% corruption rate. So their logevity is moot. Walt --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "how786" <how786@...> wrote: > > I would think that the best DVD media currently available are the > new Mitsui Gold Archive Grade. The reflective layer is comprised of > 24 karat gold, which allows maximum resistance to chemical breakdown > -- one of the major causes of disc failure. Along with choosing the > right recording dye material and bonding agent (Note: A DVD-R is made > of two polycarbonate discs bonded together) the long-term stability of > the reflective layer is crucial. Reflective layers using your standard > "silver" surface are subject to oxidation (rust) over a long period of > exposure to moisture. Unlike silver jewelry, a gold ring won't rust > and neither will the gold reflective layer in this disc. In optical > discs, the use of gold can triple the life of a standard disc. > > Best > Howard > > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" > <digitalblackandwhitetheprint@> wrote: > > > > He's right Gary. Not all recordable DVDs are created equal. None > > should be considered a long term archival solution. DVD/CDs all > > decay. Their failure rate is quite high. However, if you insist on > > using DVDs for backup storage, to improve your chances, you should > > always uses the highest quality writable media available. For more > > information on that, see: > > > > http://www.best-dvd-burning-software-reviews.com/best-blank-dvd- > > media.asp > > > > or (shortened) > > > > http://tinyurl.com/7lssl > > > > And if you do decide to use DVD/CD for backups, you should always > > have backups of your backups. > > > > Rob Greer > > http://www.robgreer.com/ > > > > --- "Gary Brown" <baffin@> wrote: > > > > > Would you care to elaborate a bit further, where did you find this > > > information. Its sound very inaccurate (I am trying to be polite). > > > > > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > >> > > >> >From my current studies I have read the saving onto DVD or CD is > > a wast of > > >> >time. They don't last as long as we are >all led to believe. You
> > are better > > >> >off getting a 200gig drive and saving your images their. > > >
2006-03-18 by Clayton Jones
Hello Rob, >http://www.best-dvd-burning-software-reviews.com/best-blank-dvd- >media.asp > or (shortened) > http://tinyurl.com/7lssl What a great site, thanks very much. I haven't used DVD, so was unaware of the problem in this kind of detail. I've been using outboard USB hard drives for my backups - I think I'll continue expanding in that avenue. Regards, Clayton Info on black and white digital printing at http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
2006-03-18 by Greg
Taiyo Yuden makes some of the best disks in the business, you might want to give them a try.
2006-03-18 by elwood@wsnconsult.com
Really.... Taiyo Yuden are the best when it comes to blank disks and have been for a number of years. I used their CD's to master live performances of once in a lifetime performances. Don't give it a second thought. There are many issues when it comes to capturing a live performance but the blank disks are not one of them. Go with Taiyo Yuden Woody Spedden Fort Collins, CO
----- Original Message ----
From: Greg <dfaprinting@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 7:26:18 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Archiving images on DVD?
Taiyo Yuden makes some of the best disks in the business, you might
want to give them a try.
Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2006-03-18 by how786
Walt, The quote is entirely accurate. So, I used it. (I have nothing whatsoever to do with Mitsui, btw) Mitsui has maintained a VERY high level of quality in their Gold CDs for many years. If you are truly using the GOLD Mitsuis, the problem is NOT in their disks, as you assert, but in your recorder or recording methodology. We carefully test and monitor the Gold CDs for our project. I cannot speak for their other lines. Very few people pay the significant extra cost for the Gold line. I am involved in an ongoing archiving project for a large company. We test all our media and media in relation to burning speed. Our testing equipment has a $25,000 figure base cost. We monitor the media for, among other things, BLER. (Block Error Rate) Mitsui has consistently been the best media we have tested for quite a few years. Of interest, in CDs, right now, their 700 meg CDs have fewer errors than their 650 meg CDs. In the past, the opposite was the case. Recording speed will affect the end-product error status so we test different recorders at different recording speeds. The very best recorders can be used as high as 16X but no higher for archiving projects. 8X is safer. (Talking about data CDs here only) Not all recorders have the ability to make good CDs/DVDs. Some produce far more errors than others regardless of media quality. Block error Rate (BLER) is defined as the number of data blocks per second that have any bad symbols. BLER is the most general and useful measurement of the quality of a disc. The Red Book specification (IEC 908) calls for a maximum BLER of 220 per second averaged over ten seconds. Discs with higher BLERs are likely to produce uncorectable errors. Presently, the best discs have average BLERs below 10. A low BLER shows that the system as a whole is performing well, and that the pit geometry is good. Relying on the BLER alone is not advisable, however, although the BLER provides information on the number of bad blocks per second, it does not indicate the severity of the errors. In principle, a disc with an average BLER of five can be unusable, if all the those errors are uncorrectable! The error codes described above provide details that indicate the severity of the errors and distinguish between correctable and uncorrectable errors. Well, I could go on and on, but will stop here. Best Regards Howard \--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "wwodets" <odets@...> wrote:
> > Howard- > > Your post is verbatim the advertising copy from the MAM-A Inc. > website, the (presumed) manufacturer of the disks with which I had an > extremely high rate of data corruption. > > I would not recommend these discs--with the very common Phillips > recorder I used they showed about a 75% corruption rate. So their > logevity is moot. > > Walt > > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "how786" > <how786@> wrote: > > > > I would think that the best DVD media currently available are the > > new Mitsui Gold Archive Grade. The reflective layer is comprised of > > 24 karat gold, which allows maximum resistance to chemical breakdown > > -- one of the major causes of disc failure. Along with choosing the > > right recording dye material and bonding agent (Note: A DVD-R is > made > > of two polycarbonate discs bonded together) the long-term stability > of > > the reflective layer is crucial. Reflective layers using your > standard > > "silver" surface are subject to oxidation (rust) over a long period > of > > exposure to moisture. Unlike silver jewelry, a gold ring won't rust > > and neither will the gold reflective layer in this disc. In optical > > discs, the use of gold can triple the life of a standard disc. > > > > Best > > Howard > > > > > > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" > > <digitalblackandwhitetheprint@> wrote: > > > > > > He's right Gary. Not all recordable DVDs are created equal. None > > > should be considered a long term archival solution. DVD/CDs all > > > decay. Their failure rate is quite high. However, if you insist > on > > > using DVDs for backup storage, to improve your chances, you > should > > > always uses the highest quality writable media available. For > more > > > information on that, see: > > > > > > http://www.best-dvd-burning-software-reviews.com/best-blank-dvd- > > > media.asp > > > > > > or (shortened) > > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/7lssl > > > > > > And if you do decide to use DVD/CD for backups, you should always > > > have backups of your backups. > > > > > > Rob Greer > > > http://www.robgreer.com/ > > > > > > --- "Gary Brown" <baffin@> wrote: > > > > > > > Would you care to elaborate a bit further, where did you find > this > > > > information. Its sound very inaccurate (I am trying to be > polite). > > > > > > > > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > > >> > > > >> >From my current studies I have read the saving onto DVD or CD > is > > > a wast of > > > >> >time. They don't last as long as we are >all led to believe. > You > > > are better > > > >> >off getting a 200gig drive and saving your images their. > > > > > >
2006-03-18 by Tim Atherton
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "how786" <how786@...> wrote: > > Walt, > The quote is entirely accurate. So, I used it. (I have nothing > whatsoever to do with Mitsui, btw) Mitsui has maintained a VERY high > level of quality in their Gold CDs for many years. > If you are truly using the GOLD Mitsuis, the problem is NOT in their > disks, as you assert, but in your recorder or recording methodology. etc My onetime colleague Joe Iraci's variopus papers have some good info on all this, such as: http://www.uni-muenster.de/Forum-Bestandserhaltung/downloads/iraci.pdf http://www.cci-icc.gc.ca/publications/cidb/view-document_e.aspx? Document_ID=396
2006-03-19 by wwodets
Howard, I am sorry, but your two posts have been nonsense. My post was about DVDs and your response is about CDs. I, too, have used the Mitsui "GOLD" (yes, I know the difference between silver and gold) CDs without problem. But their *newly released* gold DVDs are defective and it is misleading to encourage anyone to rely on them. I used both Phillips and Sony recorders and both Sonic and Nero recording programs, both at various speeds, and the Mitsui DVDs showed something like a 75% corruption rate regardless. The same tests with Sony, TDK and Maxell DVDs produced perfect results. So, this has a lot to do with the Mitsui discs. Some on this forum, and many others, have recommended the Taiyo Yuden DVDs and I will probably go with them. The usefullness of this forum relies on our speaking up when we really know something and otherwise just keeping our mouthes shut. Walt --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "how786" <how786@...> wrote: > > Walt, > The quote is entirely accurate. So, I used it. (I have nothing > whatsoever to do with Mitsui, btw) Mitsui has maintained a VERY high > level of quality in their Gold CDs for many years. > If you are truly using the GOLD Mitsuis, the problem is NOT in their > disks, as you assert, but in your recorder or recording methodology. > We carefully test and monitor the Gold CDs for our project. I cannot > speak for their other lines. Very few people pay the significant extra > cost for the Gold line. > I am involved in an ongoing archiving project for a large company. We > test all our media and media in relation to burning speed. Our testing > equipment has a $25,000 figure base cost. We monitor the media for, > among other things, BLER. (Block Error Rate) > Mitsui has consistently been the best media we have tested for quite > a few years. Of interest, in CDs, right now, their 700 meg CDs have > fewer errors than their 650 meg CDs. In the past, the opposite was the > case. > Recording speed will affect the end-product error status so we test > different recorders at different recording speeds. The very best > recorders can be used as high as 16X but no higher for archiving > projects. 8X is safer. (Talking about data CDs here only) > Not all recorders have the ability to make good CDs/DVDs. Some > produce far more errors than others regardless of media quality. > > Block error Rate (BLER) is defined as the number of data blocks per > second that have any bad symbols. BLER is the most general and useful > measurement of the quality of a disc. The Red Book specification (IEC > 908) calls for a maximum BLER of 220 per second averaged over ten > seconds. Discs with higher BLERs are likely to produce uncorectable > errors. Presently, the best discs have average BLERs below 10. A low > BLER shows that the system as a whole is performing well, and that the > pit geometry is good. > > Relying on the BLER alone is not advisable, however, although the > BLER provides information on the number of bad blocks per second, it > does not indicate the severity of the errors. In principle, a disc > with an average BLER of five can be unusable, if all the those errors > are uncorrectable! The error codes described above provide details > that indicate the severity of the errors and distinguish between > correctable and uncorrectable errors. > > Well, I could go on and on, but will stop here. > > Best Regards > Howard > > > \--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "wwodets" > <odets@> wrote: > > > > Howard- > > > > Your post is verbatim the advertising copy from the MAM-A Inc. > > website, the (presumed) manufacturer of the disks with which I had an > > extremely high rate of data corruption. > > > > I would not recommend these discs--with the very common Phillips > > recorder I used they showed about a 75% corruption rate. So their > > logevity is moot. > > > > Walt > > > > > > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "how786" > > <how786@> wrote: > > > > > > I would think that the best DVD media currently available are the > > > new Mitsui Gold Archive Grade. The reflective layer is comprised of > > > 24 karat gold, which allows maximum resistance to chemical breakdown > > > -- one of the major causes of disc failure. Along with choosing the > > > right recording dye material and bonding agent (Note: A DVD-R is > > made > > > of two polycarbonate discs bonded together) the long-term stability > > of > > > the reflective layer is crucial. Reflective layers using your > > standard > > > "silver" surface are subject to oxidation (rust) over a long period > > of > > > exposure to moisture. Unlike silver jewelry, a gold ring won't rust > > > and neither will the gold reflective layer in this disc. In optical > > > discs, the use of gold can triple the life of a standard disc. > > > > > > Best > > > Howard > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" > > > <digitalblackandwhitetheprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > He's right Gary. Not all recordable DVDs are created equal. None > > > > should be considered a long term archival solution. DVD/CDs all > > > > decay. Their failure rate is quite high. However, if you insist > > on > > > > using DVDs for backup storage, to improve your chances, you > > should > > > > always uses the highest quality writable media available. For > > more > > > > information on that, see: > > > > > > > > http://www.best-dvd-burning-software-reviews.com/best-blank- dvd- > > > > media.asp > > > > > > > > or (shortened) > > > > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/7lssl > > > > > > > > And if you do decide to use DVD/CD for backups, you should always > > > > have backups of your backups. > > > > > > > > Rob Greer > > > > http://www.robgreer.com/ > > > > > > > > --- "Gary Brown" <baffin@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Would you care to elaborate a bit further, where did you find > > this > > > > > information. Its sound very inaccurate (I am trying to be > > polite). > > > > > > > > > > > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > > > >> > > > > >> >From my current studies I have read the saving onto DVD or CD > > is > > > > a wast of > > > > >> >time. They don't last as long as we are >all led to believe.
> > You > > > > are better > > > > >> >off getting a 200gig drive and saving your images their. > > > > > > > > > >
2006-03-19 by how786
Nicely done study. It's main drawback is that they only tested 2 Gold CDs ' and no GOLD DVDs. This surprises me since it is a very recent study. Heck, we've been using Mitsui Gold CDs for many years...even back when Apogee was marketing them and they were only 60 minutes or so. Regards Howard --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Atherton" <timatherton@...> wrote:
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "how786" > <how786@> wrote: > > > > Walt, > > The quote is entirely accurate. So, I used it. (I have nothing > > whatsoever to do with Mitsui, btw) Mitsui has maintained a VERY high > > level of quality in their Gold CDs for many years. > > If you are truly using the GOLD Mitsuis, the problem is NOT in their > > disks, as you assert, but in your recorder or recording methodology. > etc > > My onetime colleague Joe Iraci's variopus papers have some good info on > all this, such as: > > http://www.uni-muenster.de/Forum-Bestandserhaltung/downloads/iraci.pdf > > http://www.cci-icc.gc.ca/publications/cidb/view-document_e.aspx? > Document_ID=396 >
2006-03-19 by Steve Gledhill
Wise approach Clayton. I commented on external hard disk backup to external drives a few months ago (post 71205) suggesting it's the only way to be sure of keeping your data secure. The moment you narrow your secured copy of your files to a single instance which is never 'refreshed' - then you're vulnerable. If you always use current storage technology with multiple copies (stored separately) that's about as secure as you can get. Data storage is very cheap and easy to do to external hard disks - and fast. But securing your data means you do have to have the discipline to make sure you do the deed and swap disks regularly / frequently - every week for me with daily incremental backups too. Steve Gledhill ----- http://www.virtuallygrey.co.uk/ Clayton Jones wrote: > Hello Rob, > > >http://www.best-dvd-burning-software-reviews.com/best-blank-dvd- > >media.asp > > or (shortened) > > http://tinyurl.com/7lssl > > What a great site, thanks very much. I haven't used DVD, so was > unaware of the problem in this kind of detail. I've been using > outboard USB hard drives for my backups - I think I'll continue > expanding in that avenue. > > Regards, > Clayton > > Info on black and white digital printing at > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Photos \ufffd NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 8p a photo http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
2006-03-19 by how786
Considering how often hard drives fail, I do not think this is a wise choice. We've been doing an archiving project for a religious organization for many years---scannng and storing all of their negatives. We have used Mitsui Gold CDs since the onset of the project. All images are placed onto the CDs in TIFF format. We actually make a total of 4 for each roll of film. They are stored in 4 different locations. We use a high-quality CD copier unit to quickly accomplish this step burning at 8x. The project has been ongoing for close to 8 years. We test 3 Gold CDs annually from each batch and compare them with the original data. Thus far our degradation has been zero. Truly---ZERO. Our plan all along has been to make new generational copies on new Gold media when we begin to see signs of significant degradation. I don't advise using HDs for long-term storage. We have suffered a myriad of HD losses during the same time period. We have always used the highest quality Seagate SCSI HDs. Seagate HDs are currently guaranteed for 5 years. They have rarely made it that long. (Thank God for Ghost backups!) The CDs are stored in jeweled cases within a beautifully made, lined, oak storage unit kept at a reasonable temperature and humidity. The units are extremely well made and nice to look at, as well. http://www.musicstorage.com/cd-storage-4-drawer.htm Yes, DVDs have a lot more space than CDs but Gold DVDs have only very recently become available. We are currently testing Mitsui Archival Gold DVDs. Even if we DO switch to the Gold DVDs sometime soon, we will continue to have storage on CDs as well since our experience with them has been stellar. BTW, all Gold CDs are not equal! A few years ago when we tested Kodak Golds and they contained many errors. No point having a Gold CD last 200 years if there are many errors already present on day one. Taiyo Yuden CDs have always tested well but I am not aware of them producing a Gold product yet. I hope this information is of some use to you. Best Regards Howard --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Gledhill <stephengledhill@...> wrote: > > Wise approach Clayton. I commented on external hard disk backup to > external drives a few months ago (post 71205) suggesting it's the only > way to be sure of keeping your data secure. The moment you narrow your > secured copy of your files to a single instance which is never > 'refreshed' - then you're vulnerable. If you always use current storage > technology with multiple copies (stored separately) that's about as > secure as you can get. Data storage is very cheap and easy to do to > external hard disks - and fast. But securing your data means you do > have to have the discipline to make sure you do the deed and swap disks > regularly / frequently - every week for me with daily incremental > backups too. > Steve Gledhill ----- http://www.virtuallygrey.co.uk/ > > Clayton Jones wrote: > > > Hello Rob, > > > > >http://www.best-dvd-burning-software-reviews.com/best-blank-dvd- > > >media.asp > > > or (shortened) > > > http://tinyurl.com/7lssl > > > > What a great site, thanks very much. I haven't used DVD, so was > > unaware of the problem in this kind of detail. I've been using > > outboard USB hard drives for my backups - I think I'll continue > > expanding in that avenue. > > > > Regards, > > Clayton > > > > Info on black and white digital printing at > > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Yahoo! Photos NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 8p a photo http://uk.photos.yahoo.com >
2006-03-19 by Bob Frost
Howard, > I don't advise using HDs for long-term storage. We have suffered a > myriad of HD losses during the same time period. But do you leave the backup HDs running all the time? You don't leave the CDs spinning all the time. You don't seem to be comparing like with like. I store some of my backup HDs, and just refresh them occasionally. bob Frosl. ----- Original Message ----- From: "how786" <how786@...>
2006-03-19 by Steve Gledhill
Howard, I agree that your strategy as described seems very robust, particularly as you test and replace and store in separate locations. All very sound components of a secure strategy. If I'd said that long term storage to hard drive was my solution then I'd have to agree with you - it's unwise. But my post (referred to below - did you read my post number 71205?) talks about always using current technology and refreshing the backed up data periodically - every week in my case. Whilst I didn't explicitly state it in my earlier post, I certainly intended it to be meant that by keeping up to date with hard disk technology (or whatever new storage technology replaces it in time) you would of course replace your external backup drives periodically too. You test your CDs periodically (3 from each batch each year), I test my external hard disk backup with a full read/verify every week before taking it off site and replacing it with another external drive. Ultimately there is no such thing as a 100% guaranteed secure long term storage solution so each of us needs to find the solution that provides that balance of risk, security, effort and cost which is commensurate with the value (financial or personal) of what we want to secure. Steve Gledhill ----- http://www.virtuallygrey.co.uk/ how786 wrote: > Considering how often hard drives fail, I do not think this is a wise > choice. > We've been doing an archiving project for a religious organization > for many years---scannng and storing all of their negatives. We have > used Mitsui Gold CDs since the onset of the project. All images are > placed onto the CDs in TIFF format. We actually make a total of 4 for > each roll of film. They are stored in 4 different locations. We use a > high-quality CD copier unit to quickly accomplish this step burning at 8x. > The project has been ongoing for close to 8 years. > We test 3 Gold CDs annually from each batch and compare them with the > original data. Thus far our degradation has been zero. > Truly---ZERO. Our plan all along has been to make new generational > copies on new Gold media when we begin to see signs of significant > degradation. > I don't advise using HDs for long-term storage. We have suffered a > myriad of HD losses during the same time period. We have always used > the highest quality Seagate SCSI HDs. Seagate HDs are currently > guaranteed for 5 years. They have rarely made it that long. (Thank God > for Ghost backups!) > The CDs are stored in jeweled cases within a beautifully made, lined, > oak storage unit kept at a reasonable temperature and humidity. The > units are extremely well made and nice to look at, as well. > http://www.musicstorage.com/cd-storage-4-drawer.htm > Yes, DVDs have a lot more space than CDs but Gold DVDs have only very > recently become available. We are currently testing Mitsui Archival > Gold DVDs. Even if we DO switch to the Gold DVDs sometime soon, we > will continue to have storage on CDs as well since our experience with > them has been stellar. > BTW, all Gold CDs are not equal! A few years ago when we tested Kodak > Golds and they contained many errors. No point having a Gold CD last > 200 years if there are many errors already present on day one. > Taiyo Yuden CDs have always tested well but I am not aware of them > producing a Gold product yet. > I hope this information is of some use to you. > Best Regards > Howard > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Gledhill > <stephengledhill@...> wrote: > > > > Wise approach Clayton. I commented on external hard disk backup to > > external drives a few months ago (post 71205) suggesting it's the only > > way to be sure of keeping your data secure. The moment you narrow your > > secured copy of your files to a single instance which is never > > 'refreshed' - then you're vulnerable. If you always use current > storage > > technology with multiple copies (stored separately) that's about as > > secure as you can get. Data storage is very cheap and easy to do to > > external hard disks - and fast. But securing your data means you do > > have to have the discipline to make sure you do the deed and swap disks > > regularly / frequently - every week for me with daily incremental > > backups too. > > Steve Gledhill ----- http://www.virtuallygrey.co.uk/ > > > > Clayton Jones wrote: > > > > > Hello Rob, > > > > > > >http://www.best-dvd-burning-software-reviews.com/best-blank-dvd- > > > >media.asp > > > > or (shortened) > > > > http://tinyurl.com/7lssl > > > > > > What a great site, thanks very much. I haven't used DVD, so was > > > unaware of the problem in this kind of detail. I've been using > > > outboard USB hard drives for my backups - I think I'll continue > > > expanding in that avenue. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Clayton > > > > > > Info on black and white digital printing at > > > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm ___________________________________________________________ Win a BlackBerry device from O2 with Yahoo!. Enter now. http://www.yahoo.co.uk/blackberry
2006-03-19 by ellery
Art From what I read and see, I think the safest would be multiple copies over different media. Hard disks are know to fail too. So if its due deligence then perhaps 2 copies on DVD's from a manufacturer of known quality and 1 or 2 hard disk copies. Unfortunatley there is a cost element to all of this. I have just seen a CDR from Verbatim have its recording surface abraded off from rubbing on the a hard plastic decorative trim of a cd holder - of course the disk was not properly stored ie not in a sleeve. But it underlines the delicate nature of the media we trust our data too.
----- Original Message -----
From: aromanocpa@...
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 12:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Archiving images on DVD?
From my current studies I have read the saving onto DVD or CD is a wast of time. They don't last as long as we are all led to believe. You are better off getting a 200gig drive and saving your images their.
Art
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]2006-03-19 by Sam McCandless
All of Howard's post is interesting to me, but I'm trying to divide and conquer the archiving problem, and to focus in this thread on storage unit(s) for CDs and DVDs (which would be complementary to hard drives). The oak cases Howard's firm uses are attractive, but I'd also like to have some recommendations on plastic or metal storage cases. I never expect to have many discs to store. I'm thinking about keeping a few in a safe deposit box, in something small enough for that if jewel cases aren't protection enough inside a safe deposit box. A duplicate set of those might be stashed in something protective in the trunk of my getaway (from earthquakes & floods) car. And many more discs, if still not very many for a photographer, I'd keep at home, maybe a hundred? Thanks. -- Sam At 11:25 AM +0000 3/19/06, how786 [Howard] wrote:
> >[snip] > > The CDs are stored in jeweled cases within a beautifully made, lined, >oak storage unit kept at a reasonable temperature and humidity. The >units are extremely well made and nice to look at, as well. >http://www.musicstorage.com/cd-storage-4-drawer.htm > >[snip]
2006-03-19 by how786
Backup HDs are always asleep. Never spinning all the time. Best Howard --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Frost" <bob@...> wrote: > > Howard, > > > I don't advise using HDs for long-term storage. We have suffered a > > myriad of HD losses during the same time period. > > But do you leave the backup HDs running all the time? You don't leave the > CDs spinning all the time. You don't seem to be comparing like with like. I
> store some of my backup HDs, and just refresh them occasionally. > > bob Frosl. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "how786" <how786@...> >
2006-03-19 by sinar001
You guys talk about the use of "gold" media, as if it were the panacia for long term storage. The reflective layer is but one source of problems for CD's & DVD's! If you have read any of the reports on this problem, you will notice that the greatest weakness of the media is the dye that is used to create the dots! I believe there are three kinds of dyes used the the manufacture of the disks. Two of them are rather unstable, the third seems to have pretty good life. (I don't have the actual data available here at home) The other sources of failure are ply separation, deformation due to heat and various failures of the reflective layer. Good storage practices are the best way of preventing data loss of disks. This means keeping the disks at constant room temperature, and out of exposure to light. The most important procedure, not to overlook, is keeping your fingers crossed. ;-) Your best bet is having multiple back-up stragegies--Hard disks and CD/DVD/s. Heard reports that Google is talking having free back-up type program at some time in the future. John Nollendorfs
2006-03-19 by Andrew Rodger
All this talk of the frailty of back ups on disc is making me hanker after film :0) I don't know if it at all relevant but I store all my images on DVD RAM (with double back ups on CDs for really precious ones). It means the discs are permanently housed in a protective case and one can add images as they are created rather than accumulating for a burn. The down side is the discs are quite dear. I think the flexibility offsets the cost disadvantages though. However, I would be interested to know if anyone has a favourite brand for reliability. I use mostly LaCie. Maxell or Imation. I use them in a built in drive on my G4 which doubles as a CD ROM but I would be curious to know if it is now possible to get an option which combines either a DVD RAM and a CDR/ RW drive or a DVD RAM and DVDR without requiring me to take the DVD RAM discs out of the cartridges. Drew
On 19 Mar 2006, at 19:03, sinar001 wrote: > You guys talk about the use of "gold" media, as if it were the panacia > for long term storage. The reflective layer is but one source of > problems for CD's & DVD's! > > If you have read any of the reports on this problem, you will notice > that the greatest weakness of the media is the dye that is used to > create the dots! I believe there are three kinds of dyes used the the > manufacture of the disks. Two of them are rather unstable, the third > seems to have pretty good life. (I don't have the actual data > available here at home) > > The other sources of failure are ply separation, deformation due to > heat and various failures of the reflective layer. > > Good storage practices are the best way of preventing data loss of > disks. This means keeping the disks at constant room temperature, and > out of exposure to light. > > The most important procedure, not to overlook, is keeping your fingers > crossed. ;-) > > Your best bet is having multiple back-up stragegies--Hard disks and > CD/DVD/s. Heard reports that Google is talking having free back-up > type program at some time in the future. > > John Nollendorfs
2006-03-19 by Greg
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Rodger <leasburnstudio@...> wrote: > LaCie. Maxell or Imation. I use them in a built in drive on my G4 > which doubles as a CD ROM but I would be curious to know if it is now > possible to get an option which combines either a DVD RAM and a CDR/ > RW drive or a DVD RAM and DVDR without requiring me to take the DVD > RAM discs out of the cartridges. > Check with Panasonic and Toshiba. I think they have one. You might also want to read up on why Panasonic thinks the DVD-RAM disks are more archival than regular burn once disks. I have no idea if what they say is in any way true. I've had the best luck with Panasonic DVD-RAM, but Imation has also worked OK. CompUSA brand has not been great, but it does still work. I've had my drive for 3+ years if that helps. And people could go back to Travan type tapes if they want, at least those have a few more years on them, plus large amounts of error correction build in. There are other error correction methods through software, but last time I mentioned those nobody cared so I won't bother.
2006-03-19 by ginnylady33
I feel like I am stirring a hornets nest. :) "You don't seem to be comparing like with like." Actually, one cannot compare 'like with like' since the essential components of HDs are not made of gold. I have 4 computers at home for me and the family. We have at least one HD failure a year amongst the 4. (Each has 2 HDs---one is for ghosting) The whole point of the posts I've read of Howard's is that gold is the 'archival standard' since it will not degrade unlike other materials. (His own experience and testing thus far verify that.) It is highly unlikely that a HD stored under any conditions will outlive a gold cd or dvd. I went to the Mitsui website. It states, "The MAM DVD is offered as the long awaited companion to the MAM Archive Grade Gold CD-R, which has an expected lifetime of 300 years and has earned a reputation as the highest quality storage media available today." Hard to believe that a company of the stature and reputation of Mitsui would be blatantly posting a fabrication on their website regarding lifespan without being sued. Even if they are off by 200 years....the media should last for 100 years. Bottom line: it would seem that none of us will be around when gold media starts to fail. Just my 2 cents. After reading this thread, I will most certainly use gold media for my data storage. Best to all, Ginny --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Frost" <bob@...> wrote: > > Howard, > > > I don't advise using HDs for long-term storage. We have suffered a > > myriad of HD losses during the same time period. > > But do you leave the backup HDs running all the time? You don't leave the > CDs spinning all the time. You don't seem to be comparing like with like. I
> store some of my backup HDs, and just refresh them occasionally. > > bob Frosl. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "how786" <how786@...> >
2006-03-19 by Andrew S. Webb
On 3/19/06 at 8:46 PM GMT ginnylady33 arranged some pixels so they looked like this: >. We have at least one HD failure a year amongst the >4. (Each has 2 HDs---one is for ghosting) If you have that many failures, you should check your incoming power lines and possibly invest in a power conditioner. It sounds as though power fluctuations are killing your drives. Or maybe you're buying refurbs? I use many more drives than you and I see failure rates of one in twenty over a year or less. Seagate drives being moved in and out of sleds and enclosures with about 1 terabyte online all the time. Power conditioners on all. Inconsistent power is a hard drives second worst enemy after heat. _andrew webb --------------------------- WebbWorks Words & Pictures mailto:andrew@... http://www.webbwork.com
2006-03-19 by ginnylady33
1-I only use Seagate ATA HDs. 2-They are mainly in sleep mode or whatever it is called. They are not spinning all day long. 3-Our computer room is equipped with Monster power centers with 'CleanPower'. 4-I never buy refurbs of anything. 5-I have a very cool room and the systems run equally cool in very nice Antec cases that have pull-out trays for each HD and individual fans. The bottom line is, as tempting as it may look space-wise, I'd never feel secure having my images backed up on a 500 GB HD for archival storage If/when that HD fails, I'd be in very deep trouble. It would be a huge loss. This is just my personal view, what I feel comfortable with. Everyone has different confort levels and different ways of evaluating choices. For those of you who feel secure using HD backups, I wish you the best. From all that I've read, from now on, I will be making 2 gold CDs of everything and store them in different places. Perhaps, ultimately, I will try the Mitsui gold DVDs. Best Regards Ginny --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew S. Webb" <andrew@...> wrote:
> > On 3/19/06 at 8:46 PM GMT ginnylady33 arranged some pixels so they > looked like this: > > >. We have at least one HD failure a year amongst the > >4. (Each has 2 HDs---one is for ghosting) > > > If you have that many failures, you should check your incoming power > lines and possibly invest in a power conditioner. It sounds as though > power fluctuations are killing your drives. Or maybe you're buying > refurbs? > > I use many more drives than you and I see failure rates of one in twenty > over a year or less. Seagate drives being moved in and out of sleds and > enclosures with about 1 terabyte online all the time. Power conditioners > on all. Inconsistent power is a hard drives second worst enemy after > heat. > > _andrew webb > > --------------------------- > WebbWorks Words & Pictures > mailto:andrew@... > http://www.webbwork.com >
2006-03-19 by Bob Frost
Ginny, > Actually, one cannot compare 'like with like' since the essential > components of HDs are not made of gold. I have 4 computers at home for > me and the family. We have at least one HD failure a year amongst the > 4. (Each has 2 HDs---one is for ghosting) I would buy a different brand of hard disk in that case! I have been using Western Digital HDs for many, many years (20?) and never had a failure yet. I currently have about 20 WD Caviar and Raptor disks in various capacities in several computers, and none have failed. Old ones I either use for backups and leave on the shelf, or sell or give away, and none of those I have sold or given away seem to have gone wrong either. So you can see why I said what I did. I used to use Kodak Gold cds and Panasonic DVD-rams, but having now got about 400GB of images, it just seemed impractical to put them all on cds - I'd need about 600 cds for one copy! I could get one copy on less than 100 dvds, but with reliable 250GB hard disks at current prices, it seems by far the best option. I keep about three copies of everything on three separate disks, so even if a disk does go one day, I still would have two more to recover from. So it comes down to three hard disks, versus 1800 cds, or 300 dvds, for a main copy and two backups. The new dvds will improve things with 15, 20, or 30GB per disk, but we don't know their reliability yet. Cds and dvds are great for music and films etc, where you can lose some info and it still works and most people won't know the difference, but with data you can't afford to lose anything, Bob Frost. ----- Original Message ----- From: "ginnylady33" <ginnylady33@...>
2006-03-19 by ginnylady33
Understood Bob. Interesting suggestion...switching brands to Western Digital. I'll have to give that serious thought. My situation is probably unique for this board. I don't own a digital camera. I still shoot film, develop it myself and scan it on an LS-9000. So, it is not a hassle after scanning a roll of film, to make a CD backup. It only take a few minutes. Regards Ginny --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Frost" <bob@...> wrote: > > Ginny, > > > Actually, one cannot compare 'like with like' since the essential > > components of HDs are not made of gold. I have 4 computers at home for > > me and the family. We have at least one HD failure a year amongst the > > 4. (Each has 2 HDs---one is for ghosting) > > I would buy a different brand of hard disk in that case! > > I have been using Western Digital HDs for many, many years (20?) and never > had a failure yet. I currently have about 20 WD Caviar and Raptor disks in > various capacities in several computers, and none have failed. Old ones I > either use for backups and leave on the shelf, or sell or give away, and > none of those I have sold or given away seem to have gone wrong either. > > So you can see why I said what I did. > > I used to use Kodak Gold cds and Panasonic DVD-rams, but having now got > about 400GB of images, it just seemed impractical to put them all on cds - > I'd need about 600 cds for one copy! I could get one copy on less than 100 > dvds, but with reliable 250GB hard disks at current prices, it seems by far > the best option. I keep about three copies of everything on three separate > disks, so even if a disk does go one day, I still would have two more to > recover from. > > So it comes down to three hard disks, versus 1800 cds, or 300 dvds, for a > main copy and two backups. The new dvds will improve things with 15, 20, or > 30GB per disk, but we don't know their reliability yet. > > Cds and dvds are great for music and films etc, where you can lose some info > and it still works and most people won't know the difference, but with data
> you can't afford to lose anything, > > Bob Frost. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "ginnylady33" <ginnylady33@...> >
2006-03-20 by mrehmus
Have you considered a SAN? Novell makes a very affordable chassis into which you can install 2 of your favorite drives and run them in a mirrored pair. The backup software which comes with the Novell backsup whatever you want at the schedule you set. I back up 3 different computers to one Novell, each having their own 'Drives' which are carved out of the overall disk space. After bootup, these drives look like any other drive on the computer. Only downside is the LAN connect speed is 100 Mbits, not 1 Gig. However, since it is running in the background during the backups, it doesn't subtract any time from a workday. If you are really concerned, you could get a pair and run them both for quad redundancy. Your hard drive life seems way too short. I think I've had 1 or 2 drives go bad in the past 10 years. I've run Hitachi's, IBM, Seagate & Western Digital with no problems. IDE, EIDE, ATA, SATA and SCSI. I have a fan blowing on each drive in a large square box server chassis. Over 1 terrabyte in the box in somewhere around 7 or 8 drives (I'd have to open it and count to know). --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ginnylady33" <ginnylady33@...> wrote: > > 1-I only use Seagate ATA HDs. > 2-They are mainly in sleep mode or whatever it is called. They are not > spinning all day long. > 3-Our computer room is equipped with Monster power centers with > 'CleanPower'. > 4-I never buy refurbs of anything. > 5-I have a very cool room and the systems run equally cool in very > nice Antec cases that have pull-out trays for each HD and individual fans. > > The bottom line is, as tempting as it may look space-wise, I'd never > feel secure having my images backed up on a 500 GB HD for archival > storage If/when that HD fails, I'd be in very deep trouble. It would > be a huge loss. > This is just my personal view, what I feel comfortable with. Everyone > has different confort levels and different ways of evaluating choices. > For those of you who feel secure using HD backups, I wish you the best. > From all that I've read, from now on, I will be making 2 gold CDs of > everything and store them in different places. Perhaps, ultimately, I
> will try the Mitsui gold DVDs. > > Best Regards > Ginny >
2006-03-20 by John Moody
I purchased "The DAM Book", Digital Asset Management for Photographers by Peter Krogh. I picked it up at the local Barnes and Noble. I found it very helpful to the whole thought process of how to organize and preserve digital images. Best regards, John Moody
-----Original Message----- From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Bob Frost Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2006 6:05 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Archiving images on DVD? Ginny, > Actually, one cannot compare 'like with like' since the essential > components of HDs are not made of gold. I have 4 computers at home for > me and the family. We have at least one HD failure a year amongst the > 4. (Each has 2 HDs---one is for ghosting) I would buy a different brand of hard disk in that case! I have been using Western Digital HDs for many, many years (20?) and never had a failure yet. I currently have about 20 WD Caviar and Raptor disks in various capacities in several computers, and none have failed. Old ones I either use for backups and leave on the shelf, or sell or give away, and none of those I have sold or given away seem to have gone wrong either. So you can see why I said what I did. I used to use Kodak Gold cds and Panasonic DVD-rams, but having now got about 400GB of images, it just seemed impractical to put them all on cds - I'd need about 600 cds for one copy! I could get one copy on less than 100 dvds, but with reliable 250GB hard disks at current prices, it seems by far the best option. I keep about three copies of everything on three separate disks, so even if a disk does go one day, I still would have two more to recover from. So it comes down to three hard disks, versus 1800 cds, or 300 dvds, for a main copy and two backups. The new dvds will improve things with 15, 20, or 30GB per disk, but we don't know their reliability yet. Cds and dvds are great for music and films etc, where you can lose some info and it still works and most people won't know the difference, but with data you can't afford to lose anything, Bob Frost.
2006-03-20 by Sam McCandless
At 11:32 PM +0000 3/19/06, ginnylady33 wrote: > >[snip] >My situation is probably unique for this board. I don't own a digital >camera. Me, either, Ginny. I'm still looking for one I'd like to use, but I'm also still shooting color film. And convert scans of it for printing BO or B&W, mostly so I can shoot and print color too without elaborating my kit more than necessary. > I still shoot film, develop it myself and scan it on an >LS-9000. So, it is not a hassle after scanning a roll of film, to make >a CD backup. It only take a few minutes. >[snip] Does the LS-9000 pause between exposures for you to see whether you want to make any adjustments and then let you use the computer for something else while it does the next exposure? Does a whole roll of 16-bit scans fit comfortably on a single CD? I think I'd like to have a one-to-one correspondence between the rolls of film and the CDs. Giving that up is the only thing I don't like about using DVDs instead. But maybe I'll do both - make a CD at scan time as you do and also make a DVD of n CDs for the sake of redundancy and more compact off-site storage. Maybe you can tell I need a new scanner. And a new computer with a killer optical drive. And ... . -- Sam
2006-03-20 by ginnylady33
> Does the LS-9000 pause between exposures for you to see whether you > want to make any adjustments and then let you use the computer for > something else while it does the next exposure? No. I can do batch scans and there is no pause. I also can do other stuff on the computer while it scans. Not a problem for me. I guess that'd depend on how much RAM one has. You can apply one setting to a whole batch of negs if the exposures are similar. Or, you can adjust each one thru a preview and the 9000 will remember each adjustment. (It's VERY fast) > Does a whole roll of 16-bit scans fit comfortably on a single CD? I adjust all my scans in Photoshop and then store at 8 bits. (Printer drivers can't tell 8 from 16 bits) You'd only need 16 bits if you were not adjusting the images before burning the CD. And, yes, one roll generally can fit on 1 CD. (700 meg) Also, if the images are not very good, I reduce dpi to 300 before burning. That, too, will save some space. It's rare that one roll will not fit on 1 CD. I am shooting with a Nikon F3 and a Pentax 6X7. By the way, FYI, the Mitsui Gold CDs that Howard recommends have phthalcyanine dye, the real archival dye according to the research paper posted here by Joe Iraci. (In fact, Mitsui invented the dye.) Taiyo Yuden CDs, though VERY well constructed, no not use the most archival dye. They use cyanine dye. Best Regards Ginny
2006-03-20 by John Moody
That is not true. For example, OPM uses 16 bits, and it is measurable in the print. Best regards, John Moody
-----Original Message----- From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of ginnylady33 Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 4:42 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Archiving images on DVD? (Printer drivers can't tell 8 from 16 bits) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2006-03-20 by Sam McCandless
Are sleeves used inside jewel boxes? Or instead of them? Thanks. -- Sam At 11:48 PM +0800 3/19/06, ellery wrote:
>[snip] > >I have just seen a CDR from Verbatim have its recording surface >abraded off from rubbing on the a hard plastic decorative trim of a >cd holder - of course the disk was not properly stored ie not in a >sleeve. But it underlines the delicate nature of the media we trust >our data too. > >[snip]
2006-03-20 by ginnylady33
It is best to use jewelled boxes and NOT sleeves. Ginny --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Sam McCandless <samcc@...> wrote:
> > Are sleeves used inside jewel boxes? Or instead of them? > > Thanks. > -- > Sam > > > At 11:48 PM +0800 3/19/06, ellery wrote: > >[snip] > > > >I have just seen a CDR from Verbatim have its recording surface > >abraded off from rubbing on the a hard plastic decorative trim of a > >cd holder - of course the disk was not properly stored ie not in a > >sleeve. But it underlines the delicate nature of the media we trust > >our data too. > > > >[snip] >
2006-03-20 by ginnylady33
Th topic of 8 vs 16 bit storage has been discussed extensively on the LS-9000 forum. The vast majority of people agree that there is no point storing images that have already been corrected at 16 bits. 8 bits is just fine. A quote follows from the conclusion of the thread. As with everything, there will be other opinions. In truth, I tried hard looking at prints made from 8 bit and 16 bit files and there was no difference visible. I then asked 3 photographer friends if they could pick out the 16 bit prints and they could not. End of story for me. (The guys I asked are really good and have critical/discerning eyes.) "Storing and printing 8 bit vs. 16 bit will never show any difference because the printer driver only works in 8 bit. However, if you open an image and do any extensive editing of the colors, retouching faces, or any transformation of the RGB values into other values you can then run into posterization problems. Think of it this way. Adjusting 256 shades (8 bit) into 128 shades has lost half of the visible(?) information. Converting both results to 8 bit for printing will only result in an error of 1 or 2 out of 128 and you can't probably see it. Transforming 65,535 shades (16 bit) into half the space gives 32,765 remaining shades. To visualize the issue, set your monitor card to High Color (16 bit) and view some of your pictures that have nice blends (blue sky or skin tones) and then look at the same in True Color (32 bit). You can see the difference. If it didn't matter, our monitor cards would still be only 4 bits per RGB color. The bottom line is that 16 bit storage is only appropriate if you will want to do significant editing to the image before printing it. When printed or viewed you cannot see the difference because the devices are only 8 bits, 256 shades of each color." Best Regards Ginny --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Moody" <moodymz3@...> wrote: > > That is not true. For example, OPM uses 16 bits, and it is measurable in
> the print. > > Best regards, > John Moody > > -----Original Message----- > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of > ginnylady33 > Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 4:42 PM > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Archiving images on DVD? > > > (Printer drivers can't tell 8 from 16 bits) > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >
2006-03-20 by John Moody
Ginny, You are quoting things again that are not true; print drivers are not _only_ 8-bit. There are print drivers with a complete 16-bit pipeline; this has been discussed numerous times. I have owned an LS-8000 for years, and Im also a member of that list. Your impression that The vast majority of people agree 8 bits is enough, is generally opposite of my impression, but thats OK, I just hope that people consider the few pennies saved on storage before they toss away so many tones. 16-bit storage is required if you want to preserve the quality of the scan you just made, period. Best regards, John Moody
-----Original Message----- From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of ginnylady33 Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 6:32 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Archiving images on DVD? Th topic of 8 vs 16 bit storage has been discussed extensively on the LS-9000 forum. The vast majority of people agree that there is no point storing images that have already been corrected at 16 bits. 8 bits is just fine. A quote follows from the conclusion of the thread. As with everything, there will be other opinions. In truth, I tried hard looking at prints made from 8 bit and 16 bit files and there was no difference visible. I then asked 3 photographer friends if they could pick out the 16 bit prints and they could not. End of story for me. (The guys I asked are really good and have critical/discerning eyes.) "Storing and printing 8 bit vs. 16 bit will never show any difference because the printer driver only works in 8 bit. However, if you open an image and do any extensive editing of the colors, retouching faces, or any transformation of the RGB values into other values you can then run into posterization problems. Think of it this way. Adjusting 256 shades (8 bit) into 128 shades has lost half of the visible(?) information. Converting both results to 8 bit for printing will only result in an error of 1 or 2 out of 128 and you can't probably see it. Transforming 65,535 shades (16 bit) into half the space gives 32,765 remaining shades. To visualize the issue, set your monitor card to High Color (16 bit) and view some of your pictures that have nice blends (blue sky or skin tones) and then look at the same in True Color (32 bit). You can see the difference. If it didn't matter, our monitor cards would still be only 4 bits per RGB color. The bottom line is that 16 bit storage is only appropriate if you will want to do significant editing to the image before printing it. When printed or viewed you cannot see the difference because the devices are only 8 bits, 256 shades of each color." Best Regards Ginny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2006-03-21 by ginnylady33
"You are quoting things again that are not true" 'Again'? What are you referring to John? Be specific. If you are going to take a shot at me, be specific. As I said, I could not tell a 16 bit from an 8 bit print. Not one of my discerning photographer friends could tell a 16 bit from an 8 bit print. If neither myself nor any of my 3 critical photographer friends can tell an 8 bit from a 16 bit print, I'm not going to store finished images at 16 bits. I value most what my eyes tell me regarding image quality. The prints made from 8-bit files look just great! I welcome you to store your images in 16 bit format. But, I would seriously doubt that one can tell the difference between a 16 bit and 8 bit print. Let's really investigate the matter...setup a double blind study. Let's do it. It must truly be double-blinded. Prints made from 16 bit files vs. prints made from 8 bit files from the same image. Let's see if anyone can consistently tell the difference. Best Regards Ginny --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Moody" <moodymz3@...> wrote: > > Ginny, > You are quoting things again that are not true; print drivers are not _only_ > 8-bit. There are print drivers with a complete 16-bit pipeline; this has > been discussed numerous times. > > I have owned an LS-8000 for years, and I'm also a member of that list. Your > impression that "The vast majority of people agree" 8 bits is enough, is > generally opposite of my impression, but that's OK, I just hope that people > consider the few pennies saved on storage before they toss away so many > tones. > > 16-bit storage is required if you want to preserve the quality of the scan
> you just made, period. > > Best regards, > John Moody > > -----Original Message----- > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of > ginnylady33 > Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 6:32 PM > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Archiving images on DVD? > > Th topic of 8 vs 16 bit storage has been discussed extensively on the > LS-9000 forum. The vast majority of people agree that there is no > point storing images that have already been corrected at 16 bits. 8 > bits is just fine. > A quote follows from the conclusion of the thread. > > As with everything, there will be other opinions. > > In truth, I tried hard looking at prints made from 8 bit and 16 bit > files and there was no difference visible. I then asked 3 photographer > friends if they could pick out the 16 bit prints and they could not. > End of story for me. > (The guys I asked are really good and have critical/discerning eyes.) > > "Storing and printing 8 bit vs. 16 bit will never show any difference > because the printer driver only works in 8 bit. However, if you open > an image and do any extensive editing of the colors, retouching faces, > or any transformation of the RGB values into other values you can then > run into posterization problems. Think of it this way. Adjusting 256 > shades (8 bit) into 128 shades has lost half of the visible(?) > information. Converting both results to 8 bit for printing will only > result in an error of 1 or 2 out of 128 and you can't probably see it. > Transforming 65,535 shades (16 bit) into half the space gives 32,765 > remaining shades. To visualize the issue, set your monitor card to > High Color (16 bit) and view some of your pictures that have nice > blends (blue sky or skin tones) and then look at the same in True > Color (32 bit). You can see the difference. If it didn't matter, our > monitor cards would still be only 4 bits per RGB color. > > The bottom line is that 16 bit storage is only appropriate if you will > want to do significant editing to the image before printing it. When > printed or viewed you cannot see the difference because the devices > are only 8 bits, 256 shades of each color." > > Best Regards > Ginny > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >
2006-03-21 by edrudolpho
I think there's 2 issues here. One is about human perception and the other about existing
technology.
Issue 1 is, if no human eye is capable of seeing more than 256 shades of gray, then why
store at 16 bit?
The other issue, 2, the existing technology issue, can be studied by considering the 1955
TV newsroom. Why shoot color 16mm news footage in 1955, after all, there are no color
TV sets? Now in 2006, the value of shooting color news footage in 1955 seems clear. In
other words, today's printers are for the most part converting all files to 8 bit for printing.
But what if a future generation of printers can make better use of the 16 bits than current
printers?
To go back to issue #1, human perception. The human hearing range is, let's say, 20 Hz
to 20 kHz. Why then do certain hi-fi buffs assemble systems that can reproduce sound
beyond those limits, and why do high-end recording studios try to record sound beyond
those limits? They do it, they say, because for those who are sensitive to subtle
differences, it makes a difference.
My notion is that I'd prefer to archive the best available file.
Ed
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ginnylady33" <ginnylady33@...>
wrote:> > snip > As I said, I could not tell a 16 bit from an 8 bit print. Not one > of my discerning photographer friends could tell a 16 bit from an 8 > bit print. If neither myself nor any of my 3 critical photographer > friends can tell an 8 bit from a 16 bit print, I'm not going to store > finished images at 16 bits.
2006-03-21 by ginnylady33
You raise a very valid point Ed. It is a good point. This is where we all must make a choice. And, having made that choice, one could possibly change later on. I've done this on a variety of issues. You also touched on a bit of a sore point for me...namely, high-end sound sytems. About 8 or 9 years ago, I was in the market to upgrade my Home Theater speakers. I went all over listening to speakers. I finally fell in love with a pair of B&W speakers. The dealers were all pushing the B&W 'Studio Reference' pair of speakers that were much larger, much more expensive and much more impressive looking, but to my ear, sounded inferior to the cheaper and smaller pair of speakers I loved. As I was getting the sales pitch, several people came and were cajoled if not shamed into buying the really expensive "Reference" speakers. I don't know. Mine sounded way better to me regardless of price or size. I've got a great ear for music, play piano and clarinet and have a huge collection of records and CDs. Music IS my forte. I do know sound. I relate this little tale, because today, my pair of speakers is listed on several websites as one of the top 10 speakers made in the '90s(!) The 'Studio Reference Model' that looked so impressive, are on no list anywhere. Now, I admit, my analogy is a stretch. I also will admit, that I don't like the notion of making 2 CDs per roll instead of one. :) After all, it is double my work! So, until I can clearly see a difference, I'm cutting corners a bit and storing files at 8 bits. I must sheepishly admit, however, that those VERY special images, the ones I REALLY like, do get stored at 16 bit..... But, that might be only 3 or 4 per roll. Frankly yours, Ginny --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "edrudolpho" <erudolph@...> wrote: > > I think there's 2 issues here. One is about human perception and the other about existing > technology. > > Issue 1 is, if no human eye is capable of seeing more than 256 shades of gray, then why > store at 16 bit? > > The other issue, 2, the existing technology issue, can be studied by considering the 1955 > TV newsroom. Why shoot color 16mm news footage in 1955, after all, there are no color > TV sets? Now in 2006, the value of shooting color news footage in 1955 seems clear. In > other words, today's printers are for the most part converting all files to 8 bit for printing. > But what if a future generation of printers can make better use of the 16 bits than current > printers? > > To go back to issue #1, human perception. The human hearing range is, let's say, 20 Hz > to 20 kHz. Why then do certain hi-fi buffs assemble systems that can reproduce sound > beyond those limits, and why do high-end recording studios try to record sound beyond > those limits? They do it, they say, because for those who are sensitive to subtle > differences, it makes a difference. > > My notion is that I'd prefer to archive the best available file. > > Ed > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ginnylady33" <ginnylady33@>
> wrote: > > > > snip > > As I said, I could not tell a 16 bit from an 8 bit print. Not one > > of my discerning photographer friends could tell a 16 bit from an 8 > > bit print. If neither myself nor any of my 3 critical photographer > > friends can tell an 8 bit from a 16 bit print, I'm not going to store > > finished images at 16 bits. >
2006-03-21 by Bob Frost
Ginny, I think you missed John's point. You were talking about prints made from 16bit and 8bit images on an 8bit printer, ie a printer whose driver downsamples 16bit files to 8bit before printing it. John was making the point that some printers are now 16bit, ie their printer drivers can handle all 16bits, so you would have to repeat your tests with 16bit and 8bit images printed on a printer with a 16bit driver. In time, I expect many more printers will handle 16bit files, but until someone has done the comparisons with one of those printers, we won't know what the difference is, if any. Bob Frost.
----- Original Message ----- From: "ginnylady33" <ginnylady33@...> As I said, I could not tell a 16 bit from an 8 bit print. Not one of my discerning photographer friends could tell a 16 bit from an 8 bit print. If neither myself nor any of my 3 critical photographer friends can tell an 8 bit from a 16 bit print, I'm not going to store finished images at 16 bits. I value most what my eyes tell me regarding image quality. The prints made from 8-bit files look just great! I welcome you to store your images in 16 bit format. But, I would seriously doubt that one can tell the difference between a 16 bit and 8 bit print. Let's really investigate the matter...setup a double blind study. Let's do it. It must truly be double-blinded. Prints made from 16 bit files vs. prints made from 8 bit files from the same image. Let's see if anyone can consistently tell the difference.
2006-03-21 by X_Ray_Wa
On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 17:48:16 +0800, Bob Frost <bob@...> wrote: > Ginny, > I think you missed John's point. You were talking about prints made from > 16bit and 8bit images on an 8bit printer, ie a printer whose driver > downsamples 16bit files to 8bit before printing it. > John was making the point that some printers are now 16bit, ie their > printer > drivers can handle all 16bits, so you would have to repeat your tests > with > 16bit and 8bit images printed on a printer with a 16bit driver. > In time, I expect many more printers will handle 16bit files, but until > someone has done the comparisons with one of those printers, we won't > know > what the difference is, if any. > Bob Fros interesting read http://visual-vacations.com/Photography/bit_depth_comparison.htm
2006-03-21 by John Moody
I apologize for taking a shot at you; that is not my nature, and Im sorry I wrote it that way. Specifically, there are 16-bit print drivers today, and more coming soon. Here are my thoughts on why LS-8000/9000 scans should be stored at 16 bit. What fits on a CD is a red herring; that storage capacity is old, and we are addressing image quality, which has noting to do with storage. To preserve the quality of the scan, more than 8-bits are required; there is no other option. Print quality is dependent on print size. Just as there is relationship between negative size and acceptable maximum print size, the same relationship occurs between the number of grayscale steps and gradient size; notice I did not say print size. It is this spatial aspect that is witnessed as visible improvements; K7 over quads, quads over Kk, etc. Fewer gray levels limit the spatial size a gradient can be before perceptual steps appear, and are dependent on the inkset and dither pattern. An 8x10 print of a woodland scene compared to a very fair skin portrait with shadow details at 16x20 would be examples of where the number of gray levels would make a difference. Best regards, John Moody
-----Original Message----- From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of ginnylady33 Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 8:34 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Archiving images on DVD? "You are quoting things again that are not true" 'Again'? What are you referring to John? Be specific. If you are going to take a shot at me, be specific. As I said, I could not tell a 16 bit from an 8 bit print. Not one of my discerning photographer friends could tell a 16 bit from an 8 bit print. If neither myself nor any of my 3 critical photographer friends can tell an 8 bit from a 16 bit print, I'm not going to store finished images at 16 bits. I value most what my eyes tell me regarding image quality. The prints made from 8-bit files look just great! I welcome you to store your images in 16 bit format. But, I would seriously doubt that one can tell the difference between a 16 bit and 8 bit print. Let's really investigate the matter...setup a double blind study. Let's do it. It must truly be double-blinded. Prints made from 16 bit files vs. prints made from 8 bit files from the same image. Let's see if anyone can consistently tell the difference. Best Regards Ginny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2006-03-21 by john dean
I'm not going to store finished images at 16 bits. I value most what my eyes tell me regarding image quality. The prints made from 8-bit files look just great! You better get used to it. Next year we are going to be talking about 32 bit storage and workflow. We'll all need more ram. john
2006-03-21 by ginnylady33
Dear John, Apology accepted and appreciated. Your explanation is most sensible. Thanks for taking the time to give me all the details. What I'd really like to see is how one of the new printers that can handle 16 bits does in the 8 bit vs. 16 bit 'shootout' :>. Will the prints actually look different? You would think so but I'm won't be convinced until I see it. Putting that factoid aside, even if the prints do NOT appear any different, your words still stand apart on their own merit. Thanks again for the explanation. Best Regards Ginny --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Moody" <moodymz3@...> wrote: > > I apologize for taking a shot at you; that is not my nature, and I'm sorry I > wrote it that way. > Specifically, there are 16-bit print drivers today, and more coming soon. > > Here are my thoughts on why LS-8000/9000 scans should be stored at 16 bit. > What fits on a CD is a red herring; that storage capacity is "old", and we > are addressing image quality, which has noting to do with storage. > > To preserve the quality of the scan, more than 8-bits are required; there is > no other option. > > Print quality is dependent on print size. Just as there is relationship > between negative size and acceptable maximum print size, the same > relationship occurs between the number of grayscale steps and gradient size; > notice I did not say print size. It is this spatial aspect that is > witnessed as visible improvements; K7 over quads, quads over Kk, etc. Fewer > gray levels limit the spatial size a gradient can be before perceptual steps > appear, and are dependent on the inkset and dither pattern. An 8x10 print > of a woodland scene compared to a very fair skin portrait with shadow > details at 16x20 would be examples of where the number of gray levels would > make a difference. > > > Best regards, > John Moody > > -----Original Message----- > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of > ginnylady33 > Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 8:34 PM > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Archiving images on DVD? > > "You are quoting things again that are not true" > > 'Again'? > > What are you referring to John? Be specific. If you are going to take > a shot at me, be specific. > > As I said, I could not tell a 16 bit from an 8 bit print. Not one > of my discerning photographer friends could tell a 16 bit from an 8 > bit print. If neither myself nor any of my 3 critical photographer > friends can tell an 8 bit from a 16 bit print, I'm not going to store > finished images at 16 bits. I value most what my eyes tell me > regarding image quality. The prints made from 8-bit files look just great!
> I welcome you to store your images in 16 bit format. But, I would > seriously doubt that one can tell the difference between a 16 bit and > 8 bit print. > Let's really investigate the matter...setup a double blind study. > Let's do it. It must truly be double-blinded. Prints made from 16 bit > files vs. prints made from 8 bit files from the same image. Let's see > if anyone can consistently tell the difference. > > Best Regards > Ginny > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >
2006-03-21 by John Moody
Ginny, I guess you just made an argument for saving in 16 bit; so that you can do the test without rescanning. :-) I can tell you that I see smoother gradations from OPM with 16 bit files on my old 2200. I can also tell you that I throw out nearly all my BW prints every couple months because Im struggling with the creative side, going back to the original files with new hope. Best regards, John Moody
-----Original Message----- From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of ginnylady33 Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 10:34 AM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Archiving images on DVD? Dear John, Apology accepted and appreciated. Your explanation is most sensible. Thanks for taking the time to give me all the details. What I'd really like to see is how one of the new printers that can handle 16 bits does in the 8 bit vs. 16 bit 'shootout' :>. Will the prints actually look different? You would think so but I'm won't be convinced until I see it. Putting that factoid aside, even if the prints do NOT appear any different, your words still stand apart on their own merit. Thanks again for the explanation. Best Regards Ginny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2006-03-21 by Bob Frost
But that is about editing in 16bit or 8bit, not printing which is what this thread is about (the thread seems to have a strange title!). If you want to read more on 16bit versus 8bit editing, just read some of Dan Margulis' list - ColorTheory. The editing in 16 or 8bit argument has been going on there for years; no-one has yet satisfied Dan's challenge - that is to his satisfaction! Bob Frost. ----- Original Message -----
From: "X_Ray_Wa" <x_ray_wa@...> > > interesting read > > http://visual-vacations.com/Photography/bit_depth_comparison.htm
2006-03-21 by Stephen M Martin
I was following right along with this discussion of storage and, suddenly, it became a discussion of printing 8 bit v. 16. ----- Original Message -----
From: "X_Ray_Wa" <x_ray_wa@...> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 5:00 AM Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Archiving images on DVD? > On Tue, 21 Mar 2006 17:48:16 +0800, Bob Frost <bob@...> wrote: > >> Ginny, >> I think you missed John's point. You were talking about prints made from >> 16bit and 8bit images on an 8bit printer, ie a printer whose driver >> downsamples 16bit files to 8bit before printing it. >> John was making the point that some printers are now 16bit, ie their >> printer >> drivers can handle all 16bits, so you would have to repeat your tests >> with >> 16bit and 8bit images printed on a printer with a 16bit driver. >> In time, I expect many more printers will handle 16bit files, but until >> someone has done the comparisons with one of those printers, we won't >> know >> what the difference is, if any. >> Bob Fros > > > interesting read > > http://visual-vacations.com/Photography/bit_depth_comparison.htm > > > > > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as > they are often being updated. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same > page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep > them short. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the > membership without notice. > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from > the membership. > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner > and Moderators. See \ufffdGroup Topic, Rules and Guidelines\ufffd in the Files > section: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND > \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO > YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR > EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF > PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE > \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN > ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE > OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) > UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) > STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT > YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE > PRINT YAHOO GROUP. > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > >
2006-03-21 by Mark Savoia
This always happens, ....just how it is in all e-groups. Occasionally someone will change the thread title. Mark On Mar 21, 2006, at 1:15 PM, Stephen M Martin wrote: > I was following right along with this discussion of storage and, > suddenly, > it became a discussion of printing 8 bit v. 16. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2006-03-21 by Sam McCandless
At 2:32 PM +0000 3/21/06, john dean wrote: > >[snip] > >... Next year we are going to be talking about >32 bit storage and workflow. We'll all need more ram. > >john I'm guessing, John, that this is from some innovation you expect from digital cameras, rather than film scanners? Thanks. -- Sam
2006-03-21 by john dean
Yes. Although I prefer drum scans for my own work I look around me and see scanning as something that is quickly becomeing an ancient art form. Digital capture is where everything is going,very fast, and along with that we can expect more and more bit depth. PS CS2 already supports greater than 16 bits per channel and a lot of people are utilizing it for combining three exposure digital camera files of static subjects for much greater dynamic range capability and are whining that they don't have that capability with people photography. We will certainly see a steady movement toward higher bit depth and I assume the printers will be forced to catch up to it (if they can). What isn't clear to me, but I am sure is to people who are on the inside of the r & d, is whether this will come as a series of gradual increases in bit depth, or rather dramatic bursts of chip capability. I don't know just how much of the greater light and hue sensitivity is tied to bit depth and how much can be acomplished by other means. But I will assume we will look back on 8 bit per channel the same way we look back on 8 track audio tape players now. Anyway if something is really important to me I save it in as high of a bit depth as I am capable of saving and I plan to keep doing that. John --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Sam McCandless <samcc@...> wrote:
> > At 2:32 PM +0000 3/21/06, john dean wrote: > > > >[snip] > > > >... Next year we are going to be talking about > >32 bit storage and workflow. We'll all need more ram. > > > >john > > I'm guessing, John, that this is from some innovation you expect from > digital cameras, rather than film scanners? > > Thanks. > -- > Sam >
2006-03-21 by Roy Harrington
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Moody" <moodymz3@...> wrote: > > Ginny, > I guess you just made an argument for saving in 16 bit; so that you can do > the test without rescanning. :-) > > I can tell you that I see smoother gradations from OPM with 16 bit files on > my old 2200. I can also tell you that I throw out nearly all my BW prints > every couple months because I'm struggling with the creative side, going > back to the original files with new hope. > > Best regards, > John Moody > Hi John, I'm curious what your test was to show difference in 16-bit vs 8-bit printing. Was it a real image or a test image? Exactly the same file to start with? I.e. the only difference is to take the 16 bit file and convert to 8 bit in PS before printing. My gut feel is very skeptical that a print could show any difference but I'm interested in any real evidence. Roy
2006-03-21 by Peter Marshall
I prefer to put them in suitable quality hanging sleeves in a metal storage box. You can get nice boxes to hold around 500 or so. As used by DJs. If you use jewel cases they should be kept in dark storage. Peter Marshall petermarshall@... _________________________________________________________________ My London Diary http://mylondondiary.co.uk/ London's Industrial Heritage: http://petermarshallphotos.co.uk/ The Buildings of London etc: http://londonphotographs.co.uk/ and elsewhere...... ginnylady33 wrote:
> It is best to use jewelled boxes and NOT sleeves. > Ginny > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Sam McCandless > <samcc@...> wrote: > >> Are sleeves used inside jewel boxes? Or instead of them? >> >> Thanks. >> -- >> Sam >> >>
2006-03-21 by John Moody
Roy, It was a 1024 step wedge, and read with an i1. Exactly the same file printed. Admittedly somewhat esoteric, but it satisfied my curiosity that gradient differences beyond 8-bit are real, and achievable with 1440 printers. Best regards, John Moody
-----Original Message----- From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Roy Harrington Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 4:19 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Archiving images on DVD? --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Moody" <moodymz3@...> wrote: > > Ginny, > I guess you just made an argument for saving in 16 bit; so that you can do > the test without rescanning. :-) > > I can tell you that I see smoother gradations from OPM with 16 bit files on > my old 2200. I can also tell you that I throw out nearly all my BW prints > every couple months because I'm struggling with the creative side, going > back to the original files with new hope. > > Best regards, > John Moody > Hi John, I'm curious what your test was to show difference in 16-bit vs 8-bit printing. Was it a real image or a test image? Exactly the same file to start with? I.e. the only difference is to take the 16 bit file and convert to 8 bit in PS before printing. My gut feel is very skeptical that a print could show any difference but I'm interested in any real evidence. Roy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2006-03-21 by Peter Marshall
But the comparison is interesting, though I'm not sure how much it reflects differences in the two people's perception of what the image should be rather than the difference between working in 8 and 16 bits. The 16 bit version does clearly seem more subtle to me, but others might prefer the greater local contrast in the 8 bit version. I think I've seen enough of my own files edited as 8 bit not to take Margulis too seriously. All to easy to mess things up, and 16 bit certainly seems to give me less problems. Looking forward to using my 16 bit printing system with K7 inks shortly too, works pretty well with quads. Regards Peter Marshall petermarshall@... _________________________________________________________________ My London Diary http://mylondondiary.co.uk/ London's Industrial Heritage: http://petermarshallphotos.co.uk/ The Buildings of London etc: http://londonphotographs.co.uk/ and elsewhere...... Bob Frost wrote:
> But that is about editing in 16bit or 8bit, not printing which is what this > thread is about (the thread seems to have a strange title!). If you want to > read more on 16bit versus 8bit editing, just read some of Dan Margulis' > list - ColorTheory. The editing in 16 or 8bit argument has been going on > there for years; no-one has yet satisfied Dan's challenge - that is to his > satisfaction! > > Bob Frost. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "X_Ray_Wa" <x_ray_wa@...> > >> interesting read >> >> http://visual-vacations.com/Photography/bit_depth_comparison.htm >> > >
2006-03-21 by Dan Girellini
ginnylady33 wrote: >2-They are mainly in sleep mode or whatever it is called. They are not >spinning all day long. > > Actually, starting and stopping is rougher on the drive. Keeping them spinning all the time will increase their life (at the expense of noise and power). I strongly agree with another poster's suggestion to switch brands or otherwise figure out what's wrong. You're failure rate is way to high. Dan.
2006-03-21 by Roy Harrington
John, Didn't the 8-bit version show the same steps? It ought to do pretty well. 8-bit doesn't mean only 256 steps because of averaging multiple pixels. But it is important that you convert to 8 bits with something like Photoshop that does an "intelligent" mapping rather than simple truncation. Roy --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Moody" <moodymz3@...> wrote:
> > Roy, > It was a 1024 step wedge, and read with an i1. Exactly the same file > printed. > Admittedly somewhat esoteric, but it satisfied my curiosity that gradient > differences beyond 8-bit are real, and achievable with 1440 printers. > > Best regards, > John Moody > > -----Original Message----- > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Roy > Harrington > Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 4:19 PM > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Archiving images on DVD? > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Moody" > <moodymz3@> wrote: > > > > Ginny, > > I guess you just made an argument for saving in 16 bit; so that you can do > > the test without rescanning. :-) > > > > I can tell you that I see smoother gradations from OPM with 16 bit files > on > > my old 2200. I can also tell you that I throw out nearly all my BW prints > > every couple months because I'm struggling with the creative side, going > > back to the original files with new hope. > > > > Best regards, > > John Moody > > > > Hi John, > > I'm curious what your test was to show difference in 16-bit vs 8-bit > printing. > Was it a real image or a test image? Exactly the same file to start with? > I.e. the only difference is to take the 16 bit file and convert to 8 bit in > PS > before printing. > > My gut feel is very skeptical that a print could show any difference but I'm > interested in any real evidence. > > Roy > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >
2006-03-22 by how786
The theory behind 'not turning devices off' comes primarily from the heat induced expansion/contraction of cards/chips in sockets eventually working their way partially out of the socket, causing failure or erroneous operating. Due to the nature of a HDD having many moving parts which can wear out (bearings, motor, solenoids) over time, I suggest this negates the benefits to the controller pcb (and it's components) of being constantly powered on. You'll find "compelling" opinions on both sides of this argument. It's good to not overheat the drives, but spinning up is also a stress on the drive motor. Personally I let the drives spindown after an hour -- when I'm actually using my computer this almost never happens, but it lets the drives spindown and cool off overnight or if I'm gone. I also set the drives this way on all the systems I help folks with -- and have outstanding reliability with those systems. Hard data is difficult to come by. What you CAN find if you look at the detailed specifications for any drive are rated start/stop cycles (usually around 50,000 minimum), service life (typically 5 years), and sometimes a very impressive (but misleading) MTBF specification. The most important specification in terms of this discussion is the rated start/stop cycles. For example, I just looked up a WD 500GB Caviar (SE16 SATA-II) -- it's rated for a minimum of 50,000 start/stop cycles. Note that if it spun up once an hour it would be about 6 years before it got to this number!! (and that's a minimum). And a drive set to spin down after an hour is unlikely to spin down more than a couple of times a day -- I'd guess mine spins down 1 or 2 times during the day and at night; to be safe I'll say 6 spinups a day -- so I'll reach the minimum rated number in about 24 years !! I suspect I'll replace my drives before then :-) And wear from other factors -- heat generation, power-on hours of the spindle motor, etc. will be much lower than it would be if the drive was constantly on. By the way, notebook drives are designed for far more start/stop cycles than desktop drives, since they are likely to spinup/spindown much more. Some IBM notebook drives have head load/unload cycle ratings (they use a slightly different technology to store the heads, so this spec is functionally equivalent to start/stop cycles) of 300,000 cycles !! As far as power-related issues with PC's, I think the two most important things you can do are (a) ensure the system has adequate power with plenty of "headroom"; and (b) be sure the system has a UPS ==> systems that are never exposed to unplanned, sudden power outages have FAR fewer problems than those that are. Doing this will probably have a far greater impact on your hard drives' life than whether or not you set them to spindown. Best Howard --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Dan Girellini <drg@...> wrote:
> > ginnylady33 wrote: > > >2-They are mainly in sleep mode or whatever it is called. They are not > >spinning all day long. > > > > > > Actually, starting and stopping is rougher on the drive. Keeping them > spinning all the time will increase their life (at the expense of noise > and power). > > I strongly agree with another poster's suggestion to switch brands or > otherwise figure out what's wrong. You're failure rate is way to high. > > Dan. >
2006-03-22 by John Moody
Roy, I used PS with no dither to do the conversion to 8-bit. With the 16-bit file it plotted as a smooth curve, more or less. The 8-bit file showed up as distinct groups of 4 readings, then a jump to the next group. The 8-bit file data also had areas of behavior beyond my time and ability to understand, but it could have been related to the ink partitioning, or using the i1 in scan mode. Best regards, John Moody
-----Original Message----- From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Roy Harrington Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 5:49 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Archiving images on DVD? 8-bit vs 16-bit John, Didn't the 8-bit version show the same steps? It ought to do pretty well. 8-bit doesn't mean only 256 steps because of averaging multiple pixels. But it is important that you convert to 8 bits with something like Photoshop that does an "intelligent" mapping rather than simple truncation. Roy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]