Digital BW, The Print

In a message dated 3/8/06 4:52:58 PM, odesmais@... writes:


> How would you proceed to produce a print with pure BW parts and  some 
> colored ones on a 9800 loaded with K3.
> 

Thats the perfect case for a custom color profile, and printing via the 
printers color print mode.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> > How would you proceed to produce a print with pure BW parts and  some
> > colored ones on a 9800 loaded with K3.

> 
> Thats the perfect case for a custom color profile, and printing via the
> printers color print mode.

I don't think the Epson driver with k3 inks can give a pure carbon image.
The image will always have more color pigments than would a dedicated B&W
inkset or a rip with full control.  

However, visually, I agree that a good profile should be able to do very
well.

I'm not sure we'll ever have enough jets to have all the advantages of a
dedicated B&W inkset as well as a good color one in a single machine.  I
thought a rip plus the R800 might be worth exploring for this, but I hear
too much that makes me believe that Epson has not quite figured out how to
get a good smooth image from those small dots when only one color or a small
number of the colors are firing. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

I have to agree. You need a custom profile for the best grey balance 
you can get with your printer.
It's also cheaper than going the ImagePrint route.

Larry W.

On Mar 8, 2006, at 4:04 PM, CDTobie@... wrote:

> Thats the perfect case for a custom color profile, and printing via the
> printers color print mode.

If your 9800 is as good as a 4800 ( I'm sure that it is) I have been doing
the handcolored look to B&W neutral and Sepia images.  I have an action in
PS which quickly sets up the image to allow me to reveal the color where and
how I want it. The neutral quality to the B&W portion is not that difficult.
I use profiles provided by Shades of Paper for Innova Smooth Cotton and I
can make very neutral B&W images. I have IP and while I use it to drive my
7000 with Cone Sepia inks, I have used it to make some colorized B&W on a
7600. I much prefer my prints on a 4800 and NO IP. 

 

Eric

 

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street

Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

http://e.neilsen.home.att.net

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry
Wangelin
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 4:46 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Blending BW and color in a single print

 

I have to agree. You need a custom profile for the best grey balance 
you can get with your printer.
It's also cheaper than going the ImagePrint route.

Larry W.

On Mar 8, 2006, at 4:04 PM, CDTobie@... wrote:

> Thats the perfect case for a custom color profile, and printing via the
> printers color print mode.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

CDTobie@... wrote:
> In a message dated 3/8/06 4:52:58 PM, odesmais@... writes:
> 
> 
>> How would you proceed to produce a print with pure BW parts and  some 
>> colored ones on a 9800 loaded with K3.
>>
> 
> Thats the perfect case for a custom color profile, and printing via the 
> printers color print mode.

David,

It would be a lot nicer if RIPs adapted their greyscale B&W = 
BO output to the new 2 and 3 grey ink inksets. Making that 
flow QTR like and use the normal color flow next to it. 
There's no problem when they are loaded with CMYK and RGB 
images next to one another but they behave almost antique when 
the greyscale is translated to BO printing only.

Ernst

                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

> 
> It would be a lot nicer if RIPs adapted their greyscale B&W = 
> BO output to the new 2 and 3 grey ink inksets. Making that 
> flow QTR like and use the normal color flow next to it. 
> There's no problem when they are loaded with CMYK and RGB 
> images next to one another but they behave almost antique when 
> the greyscale is translated to BO printing only.
> 
> Ernst
> 
I fully agree with that !!! Should one need to tone the BW part of 
the print this could be done in a color-managed workflow, but for 
pure BW driving the K head alone would add a lot of smoothness and 
easiness to the workflow. One does not necessary need/want color dots 
in the BW-only part of the print. 

The only assumption I'm making on Epson driver not offering this 
option is that K,LK,LLK used alone would tend not to be neutral 
accross the full greyscale and color needs to be applied to 
neutralise undesirable tone variations. Then as Ernst mentionned a BO 
option should be made available.

Meanwhile, I'd like to express my thanks to all for the replies.

Olivier

> 
> It would be a lot nicer if RIPs adapted their greyscale B&W = 
> BO output to the new 2 and 3 grey ink inksets. Making that 
> flow QTR like and use the normal color flow next to it. 
> There's no problem when they are loaded with CMYK and RGB 
> images next to one another but they behave almost antique when 
> the greyscale is translated to BO printing only.
> 
> Ernst
> 
I fully agree with that !!! Should one need to tone the BW part of 
the print this could be done in a color-managed workflow, but for 
pure BW driving the K head alone would add a lot of smoothness and 
easiness to the workflow. One does not necessary need/want color dots 
in the BW-only part of the print. 

The only assumption I'm making on Epson driver not offering this 
option is that K,LK,LLK used alone would tend not to be neutral 
accross the full greyscale and color needs to be applied to 
neutralise undesirable tone variations. Then as Ernst mentionned a BO 
option should be made available.

Meanwhile, I'd like to express my thanks to all for the replies.

Olivier

Olivier wrote:
>> It would be a lot nicer if RIPs adapted their greyscale B&W = 
>> BO output to the new 2 and 3 grey ink inksets. Making that 
>> flow QTR like and use the normal color flow next to it. 
>> There's no problem when they are loaded with CMYK and RGB 
>> images next to one another but they behave almost antique when 
>> the greyscale is translated to BO printing only.
>>
>> Ernst
>>
> I fully agree with that !!! Should one need to tone the BW part of 
> the print this could be done in a color-managed workflow, but for 
> pure BW driving the K head alone would add a lot of smoothness and 
> easiness to the workflow. One does not necessary need/want color dots 
> in the BW-only part of the print. 
> 
> The only assumption I'm making on Epson driver not offering this 
> option is that K,LK,LLK used alone would tend not to be neutral 
> accross the full greyscale and color needs to be applied to 
> neutralise undesirable tone variations. Then as Ernst mentionned a BO 
> option should be made available.

My message may not be clear enough. The BO option is the usual 
output for greyscale images in RIPs. I'm advocating an extra 
choice in the use of Kkk inks instead (+ toning for 
neutrality, sepia, cool). That would allow good B&W printing 
in a RIP + the combination of good B&W printing and color 
printing. Another possibility would be to direct greyscale to 
an RGB flow as well but give it another profile/paper setting 
treatment with total black generation from 100-0% and the 
profile more directed to neutrality.

Ernst

                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

Fist sorry for the double posting : I'd better stop coffe, I'm 
shaking !!!

Yes BO was understood as referring to K only. I'd agree on a RIP 
using all Ks available. But if one does not plan toning don't you 
think there could be an issue with the neutrality of the greyscale 
depending on Ks "natural" tone variations ? Ideally, one would choose 
to disregard colors so that only carbon pigments are used to secure a 
(unique) tone stability over time.

The second option is also one I was contemplating : generate a BW 
profiled with QTR NB part and mixing with the RVB part color-managed
(via document duplication that are converted according to the RVB-NB 
nature of the document, then paste in a single one not color managed 
at the PS level and send to the printer icm off) : the issue remains 
that colors will be called for in the BW part by the driver.

The whole issue would be to "switch off" color inks and don't use 
them when BW is detected in the file, while full 8col would be at use 
for RVB part.

Am I talking non-sense ?

Olivier

> My message may not be clear enough. The BO option is the usual 
> output for greyscale images in RIPs. I'm advocating an extra 
> choice in the use of Kkk inks instead (+ toning for 
> neutrality, sepia, cool). That would allow good B&W printing 
> in a RIP + the combination of good B&W printing and color 
> printing. Another possibility would be to direct greyscale to 
> an RGB flow as well but give it another profile/paper setting 
> treatment with total black generation from 100-0% and the 
> profile more directed to neutrality.
> 
> Ernst
> 
>                     --
>            Ernst Dinkla
> 
> 
> www.pigment-print.com
> (         unvollendet         )
>

In a message dated 3/9/06 3:27:21 AM, odesmais@... writes:


> The only assumption I'm making on Epson driver not offering this
> option is that K,LK,LLK used alone would tend not to be neutral
> accross the full greyscale and color needs to be applied to
> neutralise undesirable tone variations.
> 

Black/gray/gray prints would be non-neutral, would show more tint on some 
media than others, and would not necessarily offer an even, intentional looking 
ramp of non-neutral colors. Preferences in sepia prints vary... and 
black/gray/gray only printing would open up a world of complaint from those who don't 
understand its intrinsic limitations. I'm not too suprised it isn't offered.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Unit
Datacolor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla
<E.Dinkla@...> wrote:
>
>...Another possibility would be to direct greyscale to 
> an RGB flow as well but give it another profile/paper setting 
> treatment with total black generation from 100-0% and the 
> profile more directed to neutrality.

Bingo!
If you want to take it a bit farther, convert your original as gray to
that profile, then convert again from the color version to a profile
perhaps more optimized for color (less GCR), then blend to two files
as desired being careful to assign, not convert, when combining. Then
print "same as source".
However, with the new printers, some may have no problem with the look
of Max GCR for the whole enchilada..
Tyler

> Bingo!
> If you want to take it a bit farther, convert your original as gray to
> that profile, then convert again from the color version to a profile
> perhaps more optimized for color (less GCR), then blend to two files
> as desired being careful to assign, not convert, when combining. Then
> print "same as source".
> However, with the new printers, some may have no problem with the look
> of Max GCR for the whole enchilada..
> Tyler
>

Tyler thanks for indicating the workflow.
Actually, I was thinking (PS Col Pref being AdobeRVB and G2.2) of 
separating the BW part on another document, then convert to BW profile 
and turn it in color (mode/RVB). Col part would be converted to Col 
profile. BW part is paste back to the original Color document and 
disregard Col warnings (though I should not get any). Then print same 
as source, 9800 icm off.

As asked before, if I slightly toned the BW to cope with potential 
casts, GCR shouldn't be much of an issue, while I'd expect optimised  
greyscale output (this needs to be confirmed).

Thanks again Tyler

Olivier