Digital BW, The Print

I finally got my 2400 from Page Computer at the $675 sale price.

I've been printing on Epson Heavyweight Matte until now. I'm wondering
which of the Fine Art papers you'd recommend I try? I've not used any
for B&W.

 Also, any pointers on playing with the Advanced B&W controls on the
2400? Might there be an article on tweaking those>?

 Appreciatively
 Ginny

Stick to a Gray Gamma 2.2 (or Adobe RGB) workspace.  Leave the controls
other than the "hue" (the colour picker) in their default positions and
figure out your favourite hue setting for various papers that you use.  Use
PS as your image editor rather than the driver.  If you have access to a
densitometer or spectrophotometer, couple this with a QTR ICC profile for
each of your favourite settings and papers.  (If you don't have access to
one, others here who do may be prepared to measure and make the profiles for
you from patch strips you print.)

Papers worth trying include Epson Ultrasmooth and Hahnemuhle Photorag, but
there are many others.  Listen in here and you'll quickly learn the usual
suspects.

Have fun!

> From: ginnylady33 <ginnylady33@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 21:56:53 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Few B&W 2400 questions
> 
>   I finally got my 2400 from Page Computer at the $675 sale price.
> 
> I've been printing on Epson Heavyweight Matte until now. I'm wondering
> which of the Fine Art papers you'd recommend I try? I've not used any
> for B&W.
> 
>  Also, any pointers on playing with the Advanced B&W controls on the
> 2400? Might there be an article on tweaking those>?
> 
>  Appreciatively
>  Ginny

Thanks for your help Steve. I will try those papers.
You know, with my older Epson printers, I always had excellent results
letting the printer driver comntrol the output rather than PS. I was
very pleased with how easy it was. (shrug)
 Perhaps a matter of personal preference.
 I'm not sure I'm ready to do densitometry quite yet. I DO have a
densitomter that I used in my darkroom days for checking film
denisties when doing Tri-X development times/ASA calibration on my
Pentax 6X7.
 We shall see.......
 I must say, I am very impressed with what the 2400 does with B&W
right out of the box!
 Best
  Ginny
 


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
<stevekale@...> wrote:
>
> Stick to a Gray Gamma 2.2 (or Adobe RGB) workspace.  Leave the controls
> other than the "hue" (the colour picker) in their default positions and
> figure out your favourite hue setting for various papers that you
use.  Use
> PS as your image editor rather than the driver.  If you have access to a
> densitometer or spectrophotometer, couple this with a QTR ICC
profile for
> each of your favourite settings and papers.  (If you don't have
access to
> one, others here who do may be prepared to measure and make the
profiles for
> you from patch strips you print.)
> 
> Papers worth trying include Epson Ultrasmooth and Hahnemuhle
Photorag, but
> there are many others.  Listen in here and you'll quickly learn the
usual

> suspects.
> 
> Have fun!
> 
> 
> > From: ginnylady33 <ginnylady33@...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 21:56:53 -0000
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Few B&W 2400 questions
> > 
> >   I finally got my 2400 from Page Computer at the $675 sale price.
> > 
> > I've been printing on Epson Heavyweight Matte until now. I'm wondering
> > which of the Fine Art papers you'd recommend I try? I've not used any
> > for B&W.
> > 
> >  Also, any pointers on playing with the Advanced B&W controls on the
> > 2400? Might there be an article on tweaking those>?
> > 
> >  Appreciatively
> >  Ginny
>

read the couple of replies last week to my question about using Epson 
2400 ABW

Hello Ginny,

>...when doing Tri-X development times/ASA calibration on my
>Pentax 6X7.

Warms my heart! <g>.  The P67 was my primary picture machine for
years (superb lenses), and good old wonderful Tri-X the film of
choice.  What a great combination.  I sort of miss it (just temporary
nostalgia <g>), but I got tired of hauling heavy gear around (getting
older and have accumulated some back and shoulder problems).  The
carbon fiber tripod is a great invention!


>...with my older Epson printers, I always had excellent results
>letting the printer driver control the output rather than PS. 
>I was very pleased with how easy it was. 

It still can be with the 2400 and ABW.  Please have a look at the 2400
workflow article (#9) at the web link below.  It produces very fine
results without requiring a densitometer and icc curves.  As for
paper, Epson's Velvet Fine Art (VFA) works beautifully with the K3
inks.  Definitely worth trying a box.  Another favorite of mine for K3
is Merlin Natural from Hawk Mtn (not as good dmax as VFA, but a
beautiful long scale that can produce a platinum look with a variety
of convincing color tones - really pretty).   I also use Dourian (same
as PhotoRag), Condor BW, and Aurora Art - just depends on the image.

I hope this helps.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Wow, Clayton! Thanks so much for these useful suggestions.

  Yes. The 6X7 is heavy but I still use it some. Processing film is
about the only thing I still do in the darkroom. I used TX with HC-110
for many years and then got some lovely results with Xtol, too. I'm
very attached to my 6X7. :) And, I must admit, I still have NOT bought
a digital camera. I'm waiting for something in the 12-14 megpixel
range to be affordable. Or has that happened alrdy?

I do hope these papers are available in cut sheets. I noticed that the
ultrasmooth recommended earlier was mainly in rolls.

 Where does the Hahne Photo Rag he mentioned fit into your scheme of
papers?

 BTW, just how archival are these cotton papers compared with
Heavywgt. Matte?

 I will study your article.

 Appreciatively,
  Ginny

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
<cj@...> wrote:

>
> Hello Ginny,
> 
> >...when doing Tri-X development times/ASA calibration on my
> >Pentax 6X7.
> 
> Warms my heart! <g>.  The P67 was my primary picture machine for
> years (superb lenses), and good old wonderful Tri-X the film of
> choice.  What a great combination.  I sort of miss it (just temporary
> nostalgia <g>), but I got tired of hauling heavy gear around (getting
> older and have accumulated some back and shoulder problems).  The
> carbon fiber tripod is a great invention!
> 
> 
> >...with my older Epson printers, I always had excellent results
> >letting the printer driver control the output rather than PS. 
> >I was very pleased with how easy it was. 
> 
> It still can be with the 2400 and ABW.  Please have a look at the 2400
> workflow article (#9) at the web link below.  It produces very fine
> results without requiring a densitometer and icc curves.  As for
> paper, Epson's Velvet Fine Art (VFA) works beautifully with the K3
> inks.  Definitely worth trying a box.  Another favorite of mine for K3
> is Merlin Natural from Hawk Mtn (not as good dmax as VFA, but a
> beautiful long scale that can produce a platinum look with a variety
> of convincing color tones - really pretty).   I also use Dourian (same
> as PhotoRag), Condor BW, and Aurora Art - just depends on the image.
> 
> I hope this helps.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>

Added musings:

  I'd recently read a treatise on how Americans have become paralyzed
because we have too many choices in everything. I can fondly remember
the 'good old days' when my friends were testing every new film that
appeared. I just stuck to Tri-X for B&W, the older Kodachrome 25
(Circa 1960's-70s) for slides (I've still not seen a more accurate
color film hit the market.) and either VPS 160 or NPS 160 for color negs.)
 I mention this because I don't want to get 'lost' in all the choices
for paper to print B&W on. 
  :)
 The tech explosion has been a wonder. A far cry from my early
darkroom years developing my dad's Plus-X and Anscochrome in the
darkroom! (This goes back to the early '50s!)
 Awww..I'm giving away my age, now.
 Best
 Ginny


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
<cj@...> wrote:

>
> Hello Ginny,
> 
> >...when doing Tri-X development times/ASA calibration on my
> >Pentax 6X7.
> 
> Warms my heart! <g>.  The P67 was my primary picture machine for
> years (superb lenses), and good old wonderful Tri-X the film of
> choice.  What a great combination.  I sort of miss it (just temporary
> nostalgia <g>), but I got tired of hauling heavy gear around (getting
> older and have accumulated some back and shoulder problems).  The
> carbon fiber tripod is a great invention!
> 
> 
> >...with my older Epson printers, I always had excellent results
> >letting the printer driver control the output rather than PS. 
> >I was very pleased with how easy it was. 
> 
> It still can be with the 2400 and ABW.  Please have a look at the 2400
> workflow article (#9) at the web link below.  It produces very fine
> results without requiring a densitometer and icc curves.  As for
> paper, Epson's Velvet Fine Art (VFA) works beautifully with the K3
> inks.  Definitely worth trying a box.  Another favorite of mine for K3
> is Merlin Natural from Hawk Mtn (not as good dmax as VFA, but a
> beautiful long scale that can produce a platinum look with a variety
> of convincing color tones - really pretty).   I also use Dourian (same
> as PhotoRag), Condor BW, and Aurora Art - just depends on the image.
> 
> I hope this helps.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>

Ginny,

>I do hope these papers are available in cut sheets. 

Yes, all the ones I mentioned are


>Where does the Hahne Photo Rag he mentioned fit into your scheme 
>of papers?

PR is a great paper, Dourian is the same stuff.  I use Dourian because
it's double sided, so a bit more economical.

>BTW, just how archival are these cotton papers compared with
>Heavywgt. Matte?

I don't know the HWM rating, but all of the ones I listed are acid
free, etc. They are all in the chart in the Paper Chase article, which
shows the important specs.  For actual longevity ratings some of these
may be listed on the Wilhelm web site, but probably not all of them.


>I used TX with HC-110 

My favorite as well.  I found a dilute solution that still gave
HC-110's famous sharp edgy look but without golf ball grain. 
Beautiful negs and prints.  Tri-X/HC-110 has got to be the all-time
champion classic combination.  It should be in a photo Hall of Fame. 
I miss the look and the large negs, but time moves along and things
change.

My 6x7 outfit, including tripod, was 26lbs.  My digital outfit,
including carbon fiber tripod, is 7.5 lbs.  My back and shoulder are
happy <g>.  I spent all day walking and climbing on Mesquite Dunes in
Death Valley Nat'l Park last winter and was not hurting at all that
evening.  What a blessing to have been able to do that.


>And, I must admit, I still have NOT bought a digital camera. I'm 
>waiting for something in the 12-14 megpixel range to be affordable. 
>Or has that happened alrdy?

"Affordable" is relative, of course.  Probably the Canon 5D is the
best thing going right now, 12mp and about $3K.  The 20D, at 8mp, is
another excellent price/image quality deal at about $1.5K (and the
Rebel XT is even lower cost for same image quality, just lacks some
features).  I'm using an 8mp Canon Pro-1 (smaller sensor than 20D, so
lesser image quality).  8mp is enough to make acceptable 11x14s and
still have room to crop.  I consider it to be the minimum acceptable
resolution.



>I can fondly remember the 'good old days' when my friends were 
>testing every new film that appeared. I just stuck to Tri-X for 
>B&W

I went through a phase like that for about two years.  I finally
realized one day that I was worn out from hours and hours in the
darkroom, that nothing had yet beaten Tri-X/HC-110, and why was I
spending all this time and effort on this gerbil wheel?  So I stopped
all the testing and immediately entered one of my most creative and
productive stages.  I felt like I had been set free from a dark
prison.  I stuck with Tri-X for the rest of my film career.  Couldn't
stand T-Max, too slick and creamy looking.  It's why I refer to BO
printing as "Digital Tri-X".  There's something intense and compelling
about them that's reminiscent of Tri-X/HC-110.  


>I mention this because I don't want to get 'lost' in all the 
>choices for paper to print B&W on. 

My experience is that we need to keep on hand at least a
representative selection of the different types because not all images
look best on the same paper.  For K3 at the very least I'd recommend
these four:

VFA - medium warm, best dmax, bright paper, textured

PR  - medium warm, very high dmax, bright paper, smooth (smooth vs
texture will important for some images)

Merlin Natural - a warmer colored non OBA paper, excellent dmax but
not as good as VFA/PR, for the long scale platinum look (HotPress,
UltraSmooth or some other "natural" papers might serve here as well,
but MerNat excels at the long scale look)

Kayenta - for a cold white paper, excellent dmax but not quite as good
as VFA/PR.  Kayenta is really nice with K3.  Strong, contrasty, truly
black tone possible.  Condor BW is also excellent here, a bit more
finicky re ABW setting, but really fine for some images

These will carry you a long way.  They are my favorites in each
category and work well with K3 (PR is a bit finicky re finding an ABW
color setting that's convincing, but it can be done).  More could be
added to this list (I also regularly use Merlin Smooth and Aurora
Art), but I'd consider these four to be an essential foundation. 

Of course I'm talking about matte papers here.  The PK papers and the
now emerging ADFBG emulation papers are another thing altogether.  In
those categories we don't have the wide range of choices that matte
papers give us.  


>The tech explosion has been a wonder. A far cry from my early
>darkroom years developing my dad's Plus-X and Anscochrome in the
>darkroom! (This goes back to the early '50s!)
>Awww..I'm giving away my age, now.

Same here.  I got my first camera, a Kodak Brownie with 127 Verichrome
Pan, in 1954 on my 8th birthday.  My father was a photographer and
there were BW family pics all over the house.  My first ever picture
was of my black and white pet rabbit on BW film.  I remember the 3"
square deckle edged prints from the drug store.  When I was 11 I
graduated to a Brownie StarMite with the flash bulb reflector on top
(surely you remember those little thumb sized flash bulbs...I used to
burn my fingers trying to change bulbs quickly).  At 13 I got my first
35mm camera, a Kodak something (still mostly brown plastic with some
metal on it).  It was a view finder with fixed focus and shutter speed
and two aperture settings (for Color or BW film). Took my first color
slides on Boy Scout campouts.  Lots of fond memories from those days.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Thanks so much for the detailed and inspiring response Clayton. 

> PR is a great paper, Dourian is the same stuff.  I use Dourian because
> it's double sided, so a bit more economical.

Ok. I'll let my naivete show. Why do you print on both sides? Is it
because you display your photos in albums? If so, which ones do you
recommend? Heck, I'm still used to mounting photos with a press.
:)
 
 > >BTW, just how archival are these cotton papers compared with
> >Heavywgt. Matte?
> 
> I don't know the HWM rating, but all of the ones I listed are acid
> free, etc. They are all in the chart in the Paper Chase article, which
> shows the important specs.  

 I'm not sure what the Paper Chase article is.
The HWM is rated 150 years by Epson. I wonder if we'll live to see if
they are exaggerating!


> >I used TX with HC-110 
> 
> My favorite as well.  I found a dilute solution that still gave
> HC-110's famous sharp edgy look but without golf ball grain. 
> Beautiful negs and prints.  Tri-X/HC-110 has got to be the all-time
> champion classic combination.  It should be in a photo Hall of Fame. 

  Yes. I remember the first time I tried TX. I used FG-7 as the
developer. Ugh! So much grain. I also was using the Kodak ASA rating
or 4000 and their development times. I then took a darkroom seminar
with Fred Picker. He spoke about HC-110 (1:31) and the testing needed
to find my own personal ASA valid for my shutter, and, also how to
calculate the true develpment time for TX with my equipment. He said
that Kodak was over-developing the film to push the ASA up.
 Well, the ASA I wound up using was 280 or so. And, the development
time was a minute or 2 less than what Kodak specified. (They were
pushing the ASA by overdeveloping, hence, more grain)
 Viola! TX became a fine grain film! The difference was amazing,
breathtaking!
 And, I agree, I was not pleased with the T-Max films compared with TX.

> "Affordable" is relative, of course.  Probably the Canon 5D is the
> best thing going right now, 12mp and about $3K.  

   Hmmm....I could afford the 5D. But, what would a couple of basic
lenses cost me?

 >8mp is enough to make acceptable 11x14s and
> still have room to crop.  I consider it to be the minimum acceptable
> resolution.

   Is it just me or is it hard to find 11X14 paper nowadays? I really
like that size and would use it a lot more if I could find it! Which
of your favorite papers come in 11X14?

> My experience is that we need to keep on hand at least a
> representative selection of the different types because not all images
> look best on the same paper.  For K3 at the very least I'd recommend
> these four:
 
> VFA - medium warm, best dmax, bright paper, textured
> 
> PR  - medium warm, very high dmax, bright paper, smooth (smooth vs
> texture will important for some images)
> 
> Merlin Natural - a warmer colored non OBA paper, excellent dmax but
> not as good as VFA/PR, for the long scale platinum look (HotPress,
> UltraSmooth or some other "natural" papers might serve here as well,
> but MerNat excels at the long scale look)
> 
> Kayenta - for a cold white paper, excellent dmax but not quite as good
> as VFA/PR.  Kayenta is really nice with K3.  Strong, contrasty, truly
> black tone possible.  Condor BW is also excellent here, a bit more
> finicky re ABW setting, but really fine for some images
> 
> These will carry you a long way.  Of course I'm talking about matte
papers here.  .  

  Thanks for narrowing down the paper recommendations. Amongst the 4,
I've used the VFA and the PR. But, until getting the 2400, most of my
experience with the VFA nad PR has been with color not B&W. I don't
know the others papers. Can you recommend a good supplier?
   BTW, just what does K3 stand for? I know it refers to the inkset
but not sure what it designates.

Thanks for the wealth of info Clayton and the nice sharing of your
early years in photography.

Best Regards
Ginny

3 shades of blacK (the same reason you often hear the old ultrachromes
referred to as K2)

> From: ginnylady33 <ginnylady33@...>

>    BTW, just what does K3 stand for? I know it refers to the inkset
> but not sure what it designates.

Ginny,

You might like to try Epson Ultrasmooth Fine Art as well as those
already mentioned. As far as I know, it is also sold as Premier Art
Hot Press – which happens to be available in more sizes. It works well
with Epson matte black. Clayton's density rankings are based on Eboni
ink, not Epson MK – I hope that he corrects me if that is wrong.

I also shoot 6x7 quite a lot, but with a Makina 67, W67 or Mamiya 7 II
rather than an SLR. TMX/T-Max 100 is my favourite MF B&W film, but I
also use Tri-X 320. I find Kodak Ultra 100 and Fuji Pro 160S to be
very useful films for digital B&W prints, with both of them having
very low graininess and around thirteen stops of usable range (I like
having detail everywhere on the print, even if it is very subtle).
Easy to get processed if I'm too busy to develop film – I just drop
them off at the local one-hour lab, which can develop 120 and 220 C-41
but not print it - and easy to scan well.

Best,
Helen

Dear Helen,

 Thanks for the sharing. I looked at the Ultrasmooth but it was only
abailable in rolls and 13X19. What is Premier Art Hot Press? I don't
see it on the Epson site.
 TX 320. Hmmmmm.......
  <Trying to bite my tongue>
 Hmmmm...........
  Why don't you get Fred Picker's very short book, The Zone VI
Workshop. It's being sold for $1 on Amazon. It was invalauble for me
to go thru the very simple procedures he outlines in the first 1/3 of
the book on determining a personal ASA and development time for your
film. He will insist, though, that you use TX 400, not the 320
'professional' film, with HC-110. Try it and see.........
  And, really, you've got to develop your own film. That is so
crucial. I use a Jobo rotary drum processor for that at home. It
really is NOT time consuming and might take less time than the time
you use to drop film off and then pick up.
 Who knows what developer they use? How old it is? Etc......really
hard to standardize and get consistency.
 Jobos last forever, as well. 
:) 
Mine is 20 years old and still perfect.
 So, C41, B&W, whatever....your Jobo will do it easily and quickly!

 Best Regards
 Ginny


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Helen Bach"
<helenbach@...> wrote:

>
> Ginny,
> 
> You might like to try Epson Ultrasmooth Fine Art as well as those
> already mentioned. As far as I know, it is also sold as Premier Art
> Hot Press – which happens to be available in more sizes. It works well
> with Epson matte black. Clayton's density rankings are based on Eboni
> ink, not Epson MK – I hope that he corrects me if that is wrong.
> 
> I also shoot 6x7 quite a lot, but with a Makina 67, W67 or Mamiya 7 II
> rather than an SLR. TMX/T-Max 100 is my favourite MF B&W film, but I
> also use Tri-X 320. I find Kodak Ultra 100 and Fuji Pro 160S to be
> very useful films for digital B&W prints, with both of them having
> very low graininess and around thirteen stops of usable range (I like
> having detail everywhere on the print, even if it is very subtle).
> Easy to get processed if I'm too busy to develop film – I just drop
> them off at the local one-hour lab, which can develop 120 and 220 C-41
> but not print it - and easy to scan well.
> 
> Best,
> Helen
>

Hello Ginny,

>Why do you print on both sides? 

I'm not doing any double sided printing, but when I'm working on the
last little tweaks for a first-time final print of a new image (or the
first time on some paper) I often make some test prints.  All of these
go back into the box and are reused for future test prints.  Also,
with the 2400's ABW system I often make a lot of tests with a new
image to determine the best color tone for it.  Over time this can all
add up to a lot of paper, so a double sided paper does save some
money.  Kayenta is also 2-sided.


>I'm not sure what the Paper Chase article is.

Article #5 at the link below is called "The Great Paper Chase", and
lists 26 matte papers and their attributes, such as weight, cotton
content, OBA content, paper color, cold/warm tone (how it renders
carbon inks), dmax, etc.  It's a good way to get a quick overview of
the popular papers.


>Yes. I remember the first time I tried TX. I used FG-7 as the
>developer. Ugh! So much grain. 

I remember FG-7 <g>.  It made a pretty good two-bath developer, but it
couldn't beat HC-110 for sheer beauty.

>>I then took a darkroom seminar with Fred Picker. He spoke about 
>HC-110 (1:31) and the testing needed to find my own personal ASA 
>valid for my shutter, and, also how to calculate the true develpment 
>time for TX with my equipment. He said that Kodak was over-
>developing the film to push the ASA up.  Well, the ASA I wound up 
>using was 280 or so. And, the development time was a minute or 2 
>less than what Kodak specified. (They were pushing the ASA by 
>overdeveloping, hence, more grain) Viola! TX became a fine grain 
>film! The difference was amazing, breathtaking!

Fred Picker's teachings had a huge effect on me (his practical
approach to testing and simplification has been a direct influence on
my path into digital printing).  I read his book and newsletters, and
did all as you describe (also used his modified Pentax spotmeter, a
great innovation).  I ended up using ASA 200 and HC-110 at 1:48 as I
did mostly landscape and wanted to pull even more most of the time.
Occasionally I would mark a roll for special treatment, but the dilute
HC-110 gave a very nice long scale negative.  No other film/developer
combination I tried came even close to what it would do (this
conversation is making me nostalgic <g>.



>Hmmm....I could afford the 5D. But, what would a couple of basic
>lenses cost me?

Well, mortgage your home, send your kids to work at Safeway...



>Is it just me or is it hard to find 11X14 paper nowadays? I really
>like that size and would use it a lot more if I could find it! 

I've only seen one paper in that size (something from Epson in
CompUSA), but I would use 13x19 anyway because I want some border
paper around the image.  I no longer trim off the borders and dry
mount.  These papers don't ripple like silver papers, and most don't
curl either.  They can be held flat and smooth by the window mat.  I
now hinge the top of the print to the back of the window mat, and
hinge the top of the window mat to the backing board.  This speeds up
the matting enormously.  The window is cut larger than the image just
like with a mounted print, but the mat is now pressing down on the
print's border paper, holding it flat.  It looks the same as a mounted
print and the signature is now on the print instead of the backing
board.  Dry mounting is one of the things I was happy to leave behind.  



>Can you recommend a good supplier?

Dourian and Aurora must be purchased from Red River, MerNat and MerSm
from Hawk Mtn.  I get PR from Shades of Paper.  VFA and Kayenta can be
found lots of places, just look for good prices, sales, etc.  Before
ordering any Kayenta, be sure to read the Paper Chase article about it
- there was a bad batch out there that may still be on vendors' shelves.


>what does K3 stand for? I know it refers to the inkset
> but not sure what it designates.

It refers to the three shades of black or gray (K, LK, LLK).  It
differs from the 2200 UC ink which has just K and LK.  The 3rd gray
ink is one reason for the nice smooth tones it produces.



>Thanks for the wealth of info Clayton and the nice sharing of 
>your early years in photography.

You're welcome.  It's nice to read your story as well and find kindred
souls with similar backgrounds.  There are quite a few forum members
who used Fred Picker's methods.  I've had a lot of nice email
correspondence over the past few years.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Well, I guess it's old nostalgia week!  I read all of
the Zone VI Newsletters from Fred Picker and would
await each one anxiously with greed for more - even
when I disagreed with him - and that wasn't all that
rare about non-technical things - but I was always
inspired whether I agreed or not. I believe only
Edward Weston's "Daybooks" have had a greater word
based influence upon me as a photographer and then
there are Weston's photographs!!!. 

I too used HC110 (in a rotary tank) for my 8x10" Tri-X
Pro 320 negs.   Nothing can touch that combo in large
format - I know that's just an opinion - but, in this
case, we're right!

I also was very fond of FG7 but for thick emulsion
fine grained film (my favorite being Agfapan 25 - may
it RIP) for 120 negs ( for me 1st used in a Twin Lens
Rollei 6x6cm and then later a Pentax 6X7cm - I still
own both and my 13yo son has been using an old Rollei
I got for him on e-bay for practically nothing -
altho' a bit more than the Holgas he is also fond
of...)

To return to topic: Those 120 negs on Agfapan and Tech
Pan scan like a dream on my Nikon 9000.  I've still
not scanned any of my 8x10 negs as I always only
contact printed them - now that is quality to behold!
It was big and good enough for Weston - and usually
for me as well. We have an 8x10 enlarger in the wet
darkroom at our studio but I can't say it has tempted
me in the least now that I've tasted the digital
lightroom.  I have been considering the Epson 4990
scanner for the big negs - but have also considered
just paying someone to drum scan them right -  any
thoughts or advice there - or volunteers <g>?  Oh and
if it's not showing - yea I'll be 55 in April - so it
goes...Michael

--- Clayton Jones <cj@...> wrote:

> Hello Ginny,
> 
> >Why do you print on both sides? 
> 
> I'm not doing any double sided printing, but when
> I'm working on the
> last little tweaks for a first-time final print of a
> new image (or the
> first time on some paper) I often make some test
> prints.  All of these
> go back into the box and are reused for future test
> prints.  Also,
> with the 2400's ABW system I often make a lot of
> tests with a new
> image to determine the best color tone for it.  Over
> time this can all
> add up to a lot of paper, so a double sided paper
> does save some
> money.  Kayenta is also 2-sided.
> 
> 
> >I'm not sure what the Paper Chase article is.
> 
> Article #5 at the link below is called "The Great
> Paper Chase", and
> lists 26 matte papers and their attributes, such as
> weight, cotton
> content, OBA content, paper color, cold/warm tone
> (how it renders
> carbon inks), dmax, etc.  It's a good way to get a
> quick overview of
> the popular papers.
> 
> 
> >Yes. I remember the first time I tried TX. I used
> FG-7 as the
> >developer. Ugh! So much grain. 
> 
> I remember FG-7 <g>.  It made a pretty good two-bath
> developer, but it
> couldn't beat HC-110 for sheer beauty.
> 
> >>I then took a darkroom seminar with Fred Picker.
> He spoke about 
> >HC-110 (1:31) and the testing needed to find my own
> personal ASA 
> >valid for my shutter, and, also how to calculate
> the true develpment 
> >time for TX with my equipment. He said that Kodak
> was over-
> >developing the film to push the ASA up.  Well, the
> ASA I wound up 
> >using was 280 or so. And, the development time was
> a minute or 2 
> >less than what Kodak specified. (They were pushing
> the ASA by 
> >overdeveloping, hence, more grain) Viola! TX became
> a fine grain 
> >film! The difference was amazing, breathtaking!
> 
> Fred Picker's teachings had a huge effect on me (his
> practical
> approach to testing and simplification has been a
> direct influence on
> my path into digital printing).  I read his book and
> newsletters, and
> did all as you describe (also used his modified
> Pentax spotmeter, a
> great innovation).  I ended up using ASA 200 and
> HC-110 at 1:48 as I
> did mostly landscape and wanted to pull even more
> most of the time.
> Occasionally I would mark a roll for special
> treatment, but the dilute
> HC-110 gave a very nice long scale negative.  No
> other film/developer
> combination I tried came even close to what it would
> do (this
> conversation is making me nostalgic <g>.
> 
> 
> 
> >Hmmm....I could afford the 5D. But, what would a
> couple of basic
> >lenses cost me?
> 
> Well, mortgage your home, send your kids to work at
> Safeway...
> 
> 
> 
> >Is it just me or is it hard to find 11X14 paper
> nowadays? I really
> >like that size and would use it a lot more if I
> could find it! 
> 
> I've only seen one paper in that size (something
> from Epson in
> CompUSA), but I would use 13x19 anyway because I
> want some border
> paper around the image.  I no longer trim off the
> borders and dry
> mount.  These papers don't ripple like silver
> papers, and most don't
> curl either.  They can be held flat and smooth by
> the window mat.  I
> now hinge the top of the print to the back of the
> window mat, and
> hinge the top of the window mat to the backing
> board.  This speeds up
> the matting enormously.  The window is cut larger
> than the image just
> like with a mounted print, but the mat is now
> pressing down on the
> print's border paper, holding it flat.  It looks the
> same as a mounted
> print and the signature is now on the print instead
> of the backing
> board.  Dry mounting is one of the things I was
> happy to leave behind.  
> 
> 
> 
> >Can you recommend a good supplier?
> 
> Dourian and Aurora must be purchased from Red River,
> MerNat and MerSm
> from Hawk Mtn.  I get PR from Shades of Paper.  VFA
> and Kayenta can be
> found lots of places, just look for good prices,
> sales, etc.  Before
> ordering any Kayenta, be sure to read the Paper
> Chase article about it
> - there was a bad batch out there that may still be
> on vendors' shelves.
> 
> 
> >what does K3 stand for? I know it refers to the
> inkset
> > but not sure what it designates.
> 
> It refers to the three shades of black or gray (K,
> LK, LLK).  It
> differs from the 2200 UC ink which has just K and
> LK.  The 3rd gray
> ink is one reason for the nice smooth tones it
> produces.
> 
> 
> 
> >Thanks for the wealth of info Clayton and the nice
> sharing of 
> >your early years in photography.
> 
> You're welcome.  It's nice to read your story as
> well and find kindred
> souls with similar backgrounds.  There are quite a
> few forum members
> who used Fred Picker's methods.  I've had a lot of
> nice email
> correspondence over the past few years.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> 
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com

p.s. I know that AgfaPan is thin emulsion vs the
faster films but it still was thick compared to most
of those available today - altho, I've begun to
experiment with the Adox/Efke 25 speed stuff - anyone
else here have experience/opinion about that?

--- Michael Vendrell <mjvendrell2@...> wrote:

> Well, I guess it's old nostalgia week!  I read all
> of
> the Zone VI Newsletters from Fred Picker and would
> await each one anxiously with greed for more - even
> when I disagreed with him - and that wasn't all that
> rare about non-technical things - but I was always
> inspired whether I agreed or not. I believe only
> Edward Weston's "Daybooks" have had a greater word
> based influence upon me as a photographer and then
> there are Weston's photographs!!!. 
> 
> I too used HC110 (in a rotary tank) for my 8x10"
> Tri-X
> Pro 320 negs.   Nothing can touch that combo in
> large
> format - I know that's just an opinion - but, in
> this
> case, we're right!
> 
> I also was very fond of FG7 but for thick emulsion
> fine grained film (my favorite being Agfapan 25 -
> may
> it RIP) for 120 negs ( for me 1st used in a Twin
> Lens
> Rollei 6x6cm and then later a Pentax 6X7cm - I still
> own both and my 13yo son has been using an old
> Rollei
> I got for him on e-bay for practically nothing -
> altho' a bit more than the Holgas he is also fond
> of...)
> 
> To return to topic: Those 120 negs on Agfapan and
> Tech
> Pan scan like a dream on my Nikon 9000.  I've still
> not scanned any of my 8x10 negs as I always only
> contact printed them - now that is quality to
> behold!
> It was big and good enough for Weston - and usually
> for me as well. We have an 8x10 enlarger in the wet
> darkroom at our studio but I can't say it has
> tempted
> me in the least now that I've tasted the digital
> lightroom.  I have been considering the Epson 4990
> scanner for the big negs - but have also considered
> just paying someone to drum scan them right -  any
> thoughts or advice there - or volunteers <g>?  Oh
> and
> if it's not showing - yea I'll be 55 in April - so
> it
> goes...Michael
> 
> --- Clayton Jones <cj@...> wrote:
> 
> > Hello Ginny,
> > 
> > >Why do you print on both sides? 
> > 
> > I'm not doing any double sided printing, but when
> > I'm working on the
> > last little tweaks for a first-time final print of
> a
> > new image (or the
> > first time on some paper) I often make some test
> > prints.  All of these
> > go back into the box and are reused for future
> test
> > prints.  Also,
> > with the 2400's ABW system I often make a lot of
> > tests with a new
> > image to determine the best color tone for it. 
> Over
> > time this can all
> > add up to a lot of paper, so a double sided paper
> > does save some
> > money.  Kayenta is also 2-sided.
> > 
> > 
> > >I'm not sure what the Paper Chase article is.
> > 
> > Article #5 at the link below is called "The Great
> > Paper Chase", and
> > lists 26 matte papers and their attributes, such
> as
> > weight, cotton
> > content, OBA content, paper color, cold/warm tone
> > (how it renders
> > carbon inks), dmax, etc.  It's a good way to get a
> > quick overview of
> > the popular papers.
> > 
> > 
> > >Yes. I remember the first time I tried TX. I used
> > FG-7 as the
> > >developer. Ugh! So much grain. 
> > 
> > I remember FG-7 <g>.  It made a pretty good
> two-bath
> > developer, but it
> > couldn't beat HC-110 for sheer beauty.
> > 
> > >>I then took a darkroom seminar with Fred Picker.
> > He spoke about 
> > >HC-110 (1:31) and the testing needed to find my
> own
> > personal ASA 
> > >valid for my shutter, and, also how to calculate
> > the true develpment 
> > >time for TX with my equipment. He said that Kodak
> > was over-
> > >developing the film to push the ASA up.  Well,
> the
> > ASA I wound up 
> > >using was 280 or so. And, the development time
> was
> > a minute or 2 
> > >less than what Kodak specified. (They were
> pushing
> > the ASA by 
> > >overdeveloping, hence, more grain) Viola! TX
> became
> > a fine grain 
> > >film! The difference was amazing, breathtaking!
> > 
> > Fred Picker's teachings had a huge effect on me
> (his
> > practical
> > approach to testing and simplification has been a
> > direct influence on
> > my path into digital printing).  I read his book
> and
> > newsletters, and
> > did all as you describe (also used his modified
> > Pentax spotmeter, a
> > great innovation).  I ended up using ASA 200 and
> > HC-110 at 1:48 as I
> > did mostly landscape and wanted to pull even more
> > most of the time.
> > Occasionally I would mark a roll for special
> > treatment, but the dilute
> > HC-110 gave a very nice long scale negative.  No
> > other film/developer
> > combination I tried came even close to what it
> would
> > do (this
> > conversation is making me nostalgic <g>.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > >Hmmm....I could afford the 5D. But, what would a
> > couple of basic
> > >lenses cost me?
> > 
> > Well, mortgage your home, send your kids to work
> at
> > Safeway...
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > >Is it just me or is it hard to find 11X14 paper
> > nowadays? I really
> > >like that size and would use it a lot more if I
> > could find it! 
> > 
> > I've only seen one paper in that size (something
> > from Epson in
> > CompUSA), but I would use 13x19 anyway because I
> > want some border
> > paper around the image.  I no longer trim off the
> > borders and dry
> > mount.  These papers don't ripple like silver
> > papers, and most don't
> > curl either.  They can be held flat and smooth by
> > the window mat.  I
> > now hinge the top of the print to the back of the
> > window mat, and
> > hinge the top of the window mat to the backing
> > board.  This speeds up
> > the matting enormously.  The window is cut larger
> > than the image just
> > like with a mounted print, but the mat is now
> > pressing down on the
> > print's border paper, holding it flat.  It looks
> the
> > same as a mounted
> > print and the signature is now on the print
> instead
> > of the backing
> > board.  Dry mounting is one of the things I was
> > happy to leave behind.  
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > >Can you recommend a good supplier?
> > 
> > Dourian and Aurora must be purchased from Red
> River,
> > MerNat and MerSm
> > from Hawk Mtn.  I get PR from Shades of Paper. 
> VFA
> > and Kayenta can be
> > found lots of places, just look for good prices,
> > sales, etc.  Before
> > ordering any Kayenta, be sure to read the Paper
> > Chase article about it
> > - there was a bad batch out there that may still
> be
> > on vendors' shelves.
> > 
> > 
> > >what does K3 stand for? I know it refers to the
> > inkset
> > > but not sure what it designates.
> > 
> > It refers to the three shades of black or gray (K,
> > LK, LLK).  It
> > differs from the 2200 UC ink which has just K and
> > LK.  The 3rd gray
> > ink is one reason for the nice smooth tones it
> > produces.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > >Thanks for the wealth of info Clayton and the
> nice
> > sharing of 
> > >your early years in photography.
> > 
> > You're welcome.  It's nice to read your story as
> > well and find kindred
> > souls with similar backgrounds.  There are quite a
> > few forum members
> > who used Fred Picker's methods.  I've had a lot of
> > nice email
> > correspondence over the past few years.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Clayton
> > 
> > 
> > Info on black and white digital printing at    
> > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com

Michael,
I am also considering the Epson 4990 for BW 8x10 and I just found this
review. Thought you might be interested has lots of good information.
I was also a fan of the Zone VI newsletter! I loved to read Fred's views on
photography in general. I still have my Zone VI 8x10 and tripod.

Gary W.

http://www.photo-i.co.uk/Reviews/interactive/Epson%204990/Page%201.htm

 I have been considering the Epson 4990
scanner for the big negs -

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hahahaha..."mortgage your home, send your kids to work at Safeway..."
Are they lenses really THAT expensive? I've no idea. What would 2
basic lenses run me?
:)

  Yes, talking about film and darkroom stuff does make me nostalgic,
too. (SIGH)
  About FG7. As bad as it was with TX, it was truly superb with
Ilford's FP4. It gave gorgeous results. Very fine grain. Lovely
tonality. I think I was one-shoting it at 1:15.
 If you ever want to play around, try Xtol and TX. I was quite
surprised with how good the results were. (I still think HC-110 is
better, tho) I was diluting it 1:1 and had an ASA of 600+(!), with a
developing time of 6 minute, 50 sec. My HC-110 developing time was
only 4 minutes, 30 sec. What I find really fascinating about Xtol is
that Xtol IT is one of the few developers that does not contain
hydroquinone. It uses derivatives of ascorbic acid (vitamin C) and
Phenidone as developing agents. Claimed advantages include low
toxicity (important for environmental reasons as well as occupational
safety), easy mixing, and an unusual combination of fine grain with
high film speed (true shadow speed, not just push-processing). Xtol
(1996) is the only significant B&W deveoper introduced by Kodak since
HC-110. (1965 or so)

  Thanks for all the added paper info, Clayton. BTW, Heavyweight Matte
is available in 11x14. I don't know of another Epson Matte paper that
is found in 11x14. Premium Glossy, too. (But, I don't print B&W on
glossy paper.)

  I also own 2 of the modified Pentax Spotmeters. Superb tools! I used
to own one of everything until, while on vacation and shooting a lot
out West, my 6X7 body locked up. Duh! I actually had to rent a decent
camera from the local store.
 Since then, I own 2 of my most essential equipment: camera body and
spotmeter.
  <G>

Best Regards
Ginny
 


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
<cj@...> wrote:

>
> Hello Ginny,
> 
> >Why do you print on both sides? 
> 
> I'm not doing any double sided printing, but when I'm working on the
> last little tweaks for a first-time final print of a new image (or the
> first time on some paper) I often make some test prints.  All of these
> go back into the box and are reused for future test prints.  Also,
> with the 2400's ABW system I often make a lot of tests with a new
> image to determine the best color tone for it.  Over time this can all
> add up to a lot of paper, so a double sided paper does save some
> money.  Kayenta is also 2-sided.
> 
> 
> >I'm not sure what the Paper Chase article is.
> 
> Article #5 at the link below is called "The Great Paper Chase", and
> lists 26 matte papers and their attributes, such as weight, cotton
> content, OBA content, paper color, cold/warm tone (how it renders
> carbon inks), dmax, etc.  It's a good way to get a quick overview of
> the popular papers.
> 
> 
> >Yes. I remember the first time I tried TX. I used FG-7 as the
> >developer. Ugh! So much grain. 
> 
> I remember FG-7 <g>.  It made a pretty good two-bath developer, but it
> couldn't beat HC-110 for sheer beauty.
> 
> >>I then took a darkroom seminar with Fred Picker. He spoke about 
> >HC-110 (1:31) and the testing needed to find my own personal ASA 
> >valid for my shutter, and, also how to calculate the true develpment 
> >time for TX with my equipment. He said that Kodak was over-
> >developing the film to push the ASA up.  Well, the ASA I wound up 
> >using was 280 or so. And, the development time was a minute or 2 
> >less than what Kodak specified. (They were pushing the ASA by 
> >overdeveloping, hence, more grain) Viola! TX became a fine grain 
> >film! The difference was amazing, breathtaking!
> 
> Fred Picker's teachings had a huge effect on me (his practical
> approach to testing and simplification has been a direct influence on
> my path into digital printing).  I read his book and newsletters, and
> did all as you describe (also used his modified Pentax spotmeter, a
> great innovation).  I ended up using ASA 200 and HC-110 at 1:48 as I
> did mostly landscape and wanted to pull even more most of the time.
> Occasionally I would mark a roll for special treatment, but the dilute
> HC-110 gave a very nice long scale negative.  No other film/developer
> combination I tried came even close to what it would do (this
> conversation is making me nostalgic <g>.
> 
> 
> 
> >Hmmm....I could afford the 5D. But, what would a couple of basic
> >lenses cost me?
> 
> Well, mortgage your home, send your kids to work at Safeway...
> 
> 
> 
> >Is it just me or is it hard to find 11X14 paper nowadays? I really
> >like that size and would use it a lot more if I could find it! 
> 
> I've only seen one paper in that size (something from Epson in
> CompUSA), but I would use 13x19 anyway because I want some border
> paper around the image.  I no longer trim off the borders and dry
> mount.  These papers don't ripple like silver papers, and most don't
> curl either.  They can be held flat and smooth by the window mat.  I
> now hinge the top of the print to the back of the window mat, and
> hinge the top of the window mat to the backing board.  This speeds up
> the matting enormously.  The window is cut larger than the image just
> like with a mounted print, but the mat is now pressing down on the
> print's border paper, holding it flat.  It looks the same as a mounted
> print and the signature is now on the print instead of the backing
> board.  Dry mounting is one of the things I was happy to leave behind.  
> 
> 
> 
> >Can you recommend a good supplier?
> 
> Dourian and Aurora must be purchased from Red River, MerNat and MerSm
> from Hawk Mtn.  I get PR from Shades of Paper.  VFA and Kayenta can be
> found lots of places, just look for good prices, sales, etc.  Before
> ordering any Kayenta, be sure to read the Paper Chase article about it
> - there was a bad batch out there that may still be on vendors' shelves.
> 
> 
> >what does K3 stand for? I know it refers to the inkset
> > but not sure what it designates.
> 
> It refers to the three shades of black or gray (K, LK, LLK).  It
> differs from the 2200 UC ink which has just K and LK.  The 3rd gray
> ink is one reason for the nice smooth tones it produces.
> 
> 
> 
> >Thanks for the wealth of info Clayton and the nice sharing of 
> >your early years in photography.
> 
> You're welcome.  It's nice to read your story as well and find kindred
> souls with similar backgrounds.  There are quite a few forum members
> who used Fred Picker's methods.  I've had a lot of nice email
> correspondence over the past few years.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>

Cost of equipment? Check out
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/
They are a very reliable, moderate discount, giant photo supply outfit. (And 
I have no connection to them (except having bought a lot of stuff from 
them)).
Bert

katzung1@...
www.astronomy-images.com
www.visionlightgallery.com/katzung/

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "ginnylady33" <ginnylady33@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 4:23 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Few B&W 2400 questions


Hahahaha..."mortgage your home, send your kids to work at Safeway..."
Are they lenses really THAT expensive? I've no idea. What would 2
basic lenses run me?
:)

  Yes, talking about film and darkroom stuff does make me nostalgic,
too. (SIGH)
  About FG7. As bad as it was with TX, it was truly superb with
Ilford's FP4. It gave gorgeous results. Very fine grain. Lovely
tonality. I think I was one-shoting it at 1:15.
 If you ever want to play around, try Xtol and TX. I was quite
surprised with how good the results were. (I still think HC-110 is
better, tho) I was diluting it 1:1 and had an ASA of 600+(!), with a
developing time of 6 minute, 50 sec. My HC-110 developing time was
only 4 minutes, 30 sec. What I find really fascinating about Xtol is
that Xtol IT is one of the few developers that does not contain
hydroquinone. It uses derivatives of ascorbic acid (vitamin C) and
Phenidone as developing agents. Claimed advantages include low
toxicity (important for environmental reasons as well as occupational
safety), easy mixing, and an unusual combination of fine grain with
high film speed (true shadow speed, not just push-processing). Xtol
(1996) is the only significant B&W deveoper introduced by Kodak since
HC-110. (1965 or so)

  Thanks for all the added paper info, Clayton. BTW, Heavyweight Matte
is available in 11x14. I don't know of another Epson Matte paper that
is found in 11x14. Premium Glossy, too. (But, I don't print B&W on
glossy paper.)

  I also own 2 of the modified Pentax Spotmeters. Superb tools! I used
to own one of everything until, while on vacation and shooting a lot
out West, my 6X7 body locked up. Duh! I actually had to rent a decent
camera from the local store.
 Since then, I own 2 of my most essential equipment: camera body and
spotmeter.
  <G>

Best Regards
Ginny



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
<cj@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Ginny,
>
> >Why do you print on both sides?
>
> I'm not doing any double sided printing, but when I'm working on the
> last little tweaks for a first-time final print of a new image (or the
> first time on some paper) I often make some test prints.  All of these
> go back into the box and are reused for future test prints.  Also,
> with the 2400's ABW system I often make a lot of tests with a new
> image to determine the best color tone for it.  Over time this can all
> add up to a lot of paper, so a double sided paper does save some
> money.  Kayenta is also 2-sided.
>
>
> >I'm not sure what the Paper Chase article is.
>
> Article #5 at the link below is called "The Great Paper Chase", and
> lists 26 matte papers and their attributes, such as weight, cotton
> content, OBA content, paper color, cold/warm tone (how it renders
> carbon inks), dmax, etc.  It's a good way to get a quick overview of
> the popular papers.
>
>
> >Yes. I remember the first time I tried TX. I used FG-7 as the
> >developer. Ugh! So much grain.
>
> I remember FG-7 <g>.  It made a pretty good two-bath developer, but it
> couldn't beat HC-110 for sheer beauty.
>
> >>I then took a darkroom seminar with Fred Picker. He spoke about
> >HC-110 (1:31) and the testing needed to find my own personal ASA
> >valid for my shutter, and, also how to calculate the true develpment
> >time for TX with my equipment. He said that Kodak was over-
> >developing the film to push the ASA up.  Well, the ASA I wound up
> >using was 280 or so. And, the development time was a minute or 2
> >less than what Kodak specified. (They were pushing the ASA by
> >overdeveloping, hence, more grain) Viola! TX became a fine grain
> >film! The difference was amazing, breathtaking!
>
> Fred Picker's teachings had a huge effect on me (his practical
> approach to testing and simplification has been a direct influence on
> my path into digital printing).  I read his book and newsletters, and
> did all as you describe (also used his modified Pentax spotmeter, a
> great innovation).  I ended up using ASA 200 and HC-110 at 1:48 as I
> did mostly landscape and wanted to pull even more most of the time.
> Occasionally I would mark a roll for special treatment, but the dilute
> HC-110 gave a very nice long scale negative.  No other film/developer
> combination I tried came even close to what it would do (this
> conversation is making me nostalgic <g>.
>
>
>
> >Hmmm....I could afford the 5D. But, what would a couple of basic
> >lenses cost me?
>
> Well, mortgage your home, send your kids to work at Safeway...
>
>
>
> >Is it just me or is it hard to find 11X14 paper nowadays? I really
> >like that size and would use it a lot more if I could find it!
>
> I've only seen one paper in that size (something from Epson in
> CompUSA), but I would use 13x19 anyway because I want some border
> paper around the image.  I no longer trim off the borders and dry
> mount.  These papers don't ripple like silver papers, and most don't
> curl either.  They can be held flat and smooth by the window mat.  I
> now hinge the top of the print to the back of the window mat, and
> hinge the top of the window mat to the backing board.  This speeds up
> the matting enormously.  The window is cut larger than the image just
> like with a mounted print, but the mat is now pressing down on the
> print's border paper, holding it flat.  It looks the same as a mounted
> print and the signature is now on the print instead of the backing
> board.  Dry mounting is one of the things I was happy to leave behind.
>
>
>
> >Can you recommend a good supplier?
>
> Dourian and Aurora must be purchased from Red River, MerNat and MerSm
> from Hawk Mtn.  I get PR from Shades of Paper.  VFA and Kayenta can be
> found lots of places, just look for good prices, sales, etc.  Before
> ordering any Kayenta, be sure to read the Paper Chase article about it
> - there was a bad batch out there that may still be on vendors' shelves.
>
>
> >what does K3 stand for? I know it refers to the inkset
> > but not sure what it designates.
>
> It refers to the three shades of black or gray (K, LK, LLK).  It
> differs from the 2200 UC ink which has just K and LK.  The 3rd gray
> ink is one reason for the nice smooth tones it produces.
>
>
>
> >Thanks for the wealth of info Clayton and the nice sharing of
> >your early years in photography.
>
> You're welcome.  It's nice to read your story as well and find kindred
> souls with similar backgrounds.  There are quite a few forum members
> who used Fred Picker's methods.  I've had a lot of nice email
> correspondence over the past few years.
>
> Regards,
> Clayton
>
>
> Info on black and white digital printing at
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>






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Hi Ginny,

You can get many sizes of Premier Art Hot Press from atlex.com -
that's where we get ours.

"Why don't you get Fred Picker's very short book, The Zone VI
Workshop."

I must have read Fred's book at some time because I vaguely remember
discussing something with him a while ago. I'm fairly well versed in
various methods of determining the optimum EI for film, including the
zone system and variants, and LAD. I guess that film choice is a
personal thing. 100TMX and 320TXP work for me, though I use a lot of
400TX in 35 mm. 

There's a very mixed bag of my work on usefilm 
http://www.usefilm.com/photographer.asp?ID=92982
if you want a flavour of some of my work over the last 30 years.

Best,
Helen

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ginnylady33"
<ginnylady33@...> wrote:

>
> Dear Helen,
> 
>  Thanks for the sharing. I looked at the Ultrasmooth but it was only
> abailable in rolls and 13X19. What is Premier Art Hot Press? I don't
> see it on the Epson site.
>  TX 320. Hmmmmm.......
>   <Trying to bite my tongue>
>  Hmmmm...........
>   Why don't you get Fred Picker's very short book, The Zone VI
> Workshop. It's being sold for $1 on Amazon. It was invalauble for me
> to go thru the very simple procedures he outlines in the first 1/3 of
> the book on determining a personal ASA and development time for your
> film. He will insist, though, that you use TX 400, not the 320
> 'professional' film, with HC-110. Try it and see.........
>   And, really, you've got to develop your own film. That is so
> crucial. I use a Jobo rotary drum processor for that at home. It
> really is NOT time consuming and might take less time than the time
> you use to drop film off and then pick up.
>  Who knows what developer they use? How old it is? Etc......really
> hard to standardize and get consistency.
>  Jobos last forever, as well. 
> :) 
> Mine is 20 years old and still perfect.
>  So, C41, B&W, whatever....your Jobo will do it easily and quickly!
> 
>  Best Regards
>  Ginny
>

Dear Clayton,

  Just some quick feedback: I received my Merlin Natural from Hawk
Mtn. today and did a few test prints. Wow! What a lovely paper. I
found the prints VERY similar to those made on VFA. I think the Merlin
is warmer in tone. It has a pleasing tonality similar to the Agfa
Multigrade paper I was using in the darkroom. (I was  printing with a
Beseler 45A color head and controlling the contrast with 2 or the 3
colors.)
 Thanks for recommending this lovely paper. I'll share my impressions
 when the others I've ordered come.

  Best Regards
   Ginny


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
<cj@...> wrote:

>
> Hello Ginny,
> 
> >Why do you print on both sides? 
> 
> I'm not doing any double sided printing, but when I'm working on the
> last little tweaks for a first-time final print of a new image (or the
> first time on some paper) I often make some test prints.  All of these
> go back into the box and are reused for future test prints.  Also,
> with the 2400's ABW system I often make a lot of tests with a new
> image to determine the best color tone for it.  Over time this can all
> add up to a lot of paper, so a double sided paper does save some
> money.  Kayenta is also 2-sided.
> 
> 
> >I'm not sure what the Paper Chase article is.
> 
> Article #5 at the link below is called "The Great Paper Chase", and
> lists 26 matte papers and their attributes, such as weight, cotton
> content, OBA content, paper color, cold/warm tone (how it renders
> carbon inks), dmax, etc.  It's a good way to get a quick overview of
> the popular papers.
> 
> 
> >Yes. I remember the first time I tried TX. I used FG-7 as the
> >developer. Ugh! So much grain. 
> 
> I remember FG-7 <g>.  It made a pretty good two-bath developer, but it
> couldn't beat HC-110 for sheer beauty.
> 
> >>I then took a darkroom seminar with Fred Picker. He spoke about 
> >HC-110 (1:31) and the testing needed to find my own personal ASA 
> >valid for my shutter, and, also how to calculate the true develpment 
> >time for TX with my equipment. He said that Kodak was over-
> >developing the film to push the ASA up.  Well, the ASA I wound up 
> >using was 280 or so. And, the development time was a minute or 2 
> >less than what Kodak specified. (They were pushing the ASA by 
> >overdeveloping, hence, more grain) Viola! TX became a fine grain 
> >film! The difference was amazing, breathtaking!
> 
> Fred Picker's teachings had a huge effect on me (his practical
> approach to testing and simplification has been a direct influence on
> my path into digital printing).  I read his book and newsletters, and
> did all as you describe (also used his modified Pentax spotmeter, a
> great innovation).  I ended up using ASA 200 and HC-110 at 1:48 as I
> did mostly landscape and wanted to pull even more most of the time.
> Occasionally I would mark a roll for special treatment, but the dilute
> HC-110 gave a very nice long scale negative.  No other film/developer
> combination I tried came even close to what it would do (this
> conversation is making me nostalgic <g>.
> 
> 
> 
> >Hmmm....I could afford the 5D. But, what would a couple of basic
> >lenses cost me?
> 
> Well, mortgage your home, send your kids to work at Safeway...
> 
> 
> 
> >Is it just me or is it hard to find 11X14 paper nowadays? I really
> >like that size and would use it a lot more if I could find it! 
> 
> I've only seen one paper in that size (something from Epson in
> CompUSA), but I would use 13x19 anyway because I want some border
> paper around the image.  I no longer trim off the borders and dry
> mount.  These papers don't ripple like silver papers, and most don't
> curl either.  They can be held flat and smooth by the window mat.  I
> now hinge the top of the print to the back of the window mat, and
> hinge the top of the window mat to the backing board.  This speeds up
> the matting enormously.  The window is cut larger than the image just
> like with a mounted print, but the mat is now pressing down on the
> print's border paper, holding it flat.  It looks the same as a mounted
> print and the signature is now on the print instead of the backing
> board.  Dry mounting is one of the things I was happy to leave behind.  
> 
> 
> 
> >Can you recommend a good supplier?
> 
> Dourian and Aurora must be purchased from Red River, MerNat and MerSm
> from Hawk Mtn.  I get PR from Shades of Paper.  VFA and Kayenta can be
> found lots of places, just look for good prices, sales, etc.  Before
> ordering any Kayenta, be sure to read the Paper Chase article about it
> - there was a bad batch out there that may still be on vendors' shelves.
> 
> 
> >what does K3 stand for? I know it refers to the inkset
> > but not sure what it designates.
> 
> It refers to the three shades of black or gray (K, LK, LLK).  It
> differs from the 2200 UC ink which has just K and LK.  The 3rd gray
> ink is one reason for the nice smooth tones it produces.
> 
> 
> 
> >Thanks for the wealth of info Clayton and the nice sharing of 
> >your early years in photography.
> 
> You're welcome.  It's nice to read your story as well and find kindred
> souls with similar backgrounds.  There are quite a few forum members
> who used Fred Picker's methods.  I've had a lot of nice email
> correspondence over the past few years.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>

Ginny:  Lucky you that your 45A still works!  Makes me envious and not a little nostalgic.  Jim

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: ginnylady33 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 1:22 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Few B&W 2400 questions


  Dear Clayton,

    Just some quick feedback: I received my Merlin Natural from Hawk
  Mtn. today and did a few test prints. Wow! What a lovely paper. I
  found the prints VERY similar to those made on VFA. I think the Merlin
  is warmer in tone. It has a pleasing tonality similar to the Agfa
  Multigrade paper I was using in the darkroom. (I was  printing with a
  Beseler 45A color head and controlling the contrast with 2 or the 3
  colors.)
  Thanks for recommending this lovely paper. I'll share my impressions
  when the others I've ordered come.

    Best Regards
     Ginny


  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
  <cj@...> wrote:
  >
  > Hello Ginny,
  > 
  > >Why do you print on both sides? 
  > 
  > I'm not doing any double sided printing, but when I'm working on the
  > last little tweaks for a first-time final print of a new image (or the
  > first time on some paper) I often make some test prints.  All of these
  > go back into the box and are reused for future test prints.  Also,
  > with the 2400's ABW system I often make a lot of tests with a new
  > image to determine the best color tone for it.  Over time this can all
  > add up to a lot of paper, so a double sided paper does save some
  > money.  Kayenta is also 2-sided.
  > 
  > 
  > >I'm not sure what the Paper Chase article is.
  > 
  > Article #5 at the link below is called "The Great Paper Chase", and
  > lists 26 matte papers and their attributes, such as weight, cotton
  > content, OBA content, paper color, cold/warm tone (how it renders
  > carbon inks), dmax, etc.  It's a good way to get a quick overview of
  > the popular papers.
  > 
  > 
  > >Yes. I remember the first time I tried TX. I used FG-7 as the
  > >developer. Ugh! So much grain. 
  > 
  > I remember FG-7 <g>.  It made a pretty good two-bath developer, but it
  > couldn't beat HC-110 for sheer beauty.
  > 
  > >>I then took a darkroom seminar with Fred Picker. He spoke about 
  > >HC-110 (1:31) and the testing needed to find my own personal ASA 
  > >valid for my shutter, and, also how to calculate the true develpment 
  > >time for TX with my equipment. He said that Kodak was over-
  > >developing the film to push the ASA up.  Well, the ASA I wound up 
  > >using was 280 or so. And, the development time was a minute or 2 
  > >less than what Kodak specified. (They were pushing the ASA by 
  > >overdeveloping, hence, more grain) Viola! TX became a fine grain 
  > >film! The difference was amazing, breathtaking!
  > 
  > Fred Picker's teachings had a huge effect on me (his practical
  > approach to testing and simplification has been a direct influence on
  > my path into digital printing).  I read his book and newsletters, and
  > did all as you describe (also used his modified Pentax spotmeter, a
  > great innovation).  I ended up using ASA 200 and HC-110 at 1:48 as I
  > did mostly landscape and wanted to pull even more most of the time.
  > Occasionally I would mark a roll for special treatment, but the dilute
  > HC-110 gave a very nice long scale negative.  No other film/developer
  > combination I tried came even close to what it would do (this
  > conversation is making me nostalgic <g>.
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > >Hmmm....I could afford the 5D. But, what would a couple of basic
  > >lenses cost me?
  > 
  > Well, mortgage your home, send your kids to work at Safeway...
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > >Is it just me or is it hard to find 11X14 paper nowadays? I really
  > >like that size and would use it a lot more if I could find it! 
  > 
  > I've only seen one paper in that size (something from Epson in
  > CompUSA), but I would use 13x19 anyway because I want some border
  > paper around the image.  I no longer trim off the borders and dry
  > mount.  These papers don't ripple like silver papers, and most don't
  > curl either.  They can be held flat and smooth by the window mat.  I
  > now hinge the top of the print to the back of the window mat, and
  > hinge the top of the window mat to the backing board.  This speeds up
  > the matting enormously.  The window is cut larger than the image just
  > like with a mounted print, but the mat is now pressing down on the
  > print's border paper, holding it flat.  It looks the same as a mounted
  > print and the signature is now on the print instead of the backing
  > board.  Dry mounting is one of the things I was happy to leave behind.  
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > >Can you recommend a good supplier?
  > 
  > Dourian and Aurora must be purchased from Red River, MerNat and MerSm
  > from Hawk Mtn.  I get PR from Shades of Paper.  VFA and Kayenta can be
  > found lots of places, just look for good prices, sales, etc.  Before
  > ordering any Kayenta, be sure to read the Paper Chase article about it
  > - there was a bad batch out there that may still be on vendors' shelves.
  > 
  > 
  > >what does K3 stand for? I know it refers to the inkset
  > > but not sure what it designates.
  > 
  > It refers to the three shades of black or gray (K, LK, LLK).  It
  > differs from the 2200 UC ink which has just K and LK.  The 3rd gray
  > ink is one reason for the nice smooth tones it produces.
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > >Thanks for the wealth of info Clayton and the nice sharing of 
  > >your early years in photography.
  > 
  > You're welcome.  It's nice to read your story as well and find kindred
  > souls with similar backgrounds.  There are quite a few forum members
  > who used Fred Picker's methods.  I've had a lot of nice email
  > correspondence over the past few years.
  > 
  > Regards,
  > Clayton
  > 
  > 
  > Info on black and white digital printing at    
  > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
  >






  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

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  Please follow these basic guidelines:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ginny wrote:
>  >And, I must admit, I still have NOT bought a digital camera. I'm
>>waiting for something in the 12-14 megpixel range to be affordable.
>>Or has that happened alrdy?


At 5:32 AM +0000 2/22/06, Clayton Jones responded:

>"Affordable" is relative, of course.  Probably the Canon 5D is the
>best thing going right now, 12mp and about $3K.  The 20D, at 8mp, is
>another excellent price/image quality deal at about $1.5K (and the
>Rebel XT is even lower cost for same image quality, just lacks some
>features).  I'm using an 8mp Canon Pro-1 (smaller sensor than 20D, so
>lesser image quality).  8mp is enough to make acceptable 11x14s and
>still have room to crop.  I consider it to be the minimum acceptable
>resolution.
>

Nikon's brand new D200 should be considered.

Full comparison table between the 5D, 20D and the D200:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond200/page25.asp

That page also includes a nice bit offering some perspective on the 
megapixel chase.
-- 

jonathan wills
_______
wills design
portland, oregon, usa

Well, there is a guy in Pa. who is expert at rebuilding them. Daryl
Nicholas from Color Bat. I think he has a flat fee of $300 or so.
Best
Ginny


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Platinum Jim"
<platinumjstrain@...> wrote:
>
> Ginny:  Lucky you that your 45A still works!  Makes me envious and
not a little nostalgic.  Jim
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: ginnylady33 
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 1:22 PM
>   Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Few B&W 2400 questions
> 
> 
>   Dear Clayton,
> 
>     Just some quick feedback: I received my Merlin Natural from Hawk
>   Mtn. today and did a few test prints. Wow! What a lovely paper. I
>   found the prints VERY similar to those made on VFA. I think the Merlin
>   is warmer in tone. It has a pleasing tonality similar to the Agfa
>   Multigrade paper I was using in the darkroom. (I was  printing with a
>   Beseler 45A color head and controlling the contrast with 2 or the 3
>   colors.)
>   Thanks for recommending this lovely paper. I'll share my impressions
>   when the others I've ordered come.
> 
>     Best Regards
>      Ginny
> 
> 
>   --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
>   <cj@> wrote:
>   >
>   > Hello Ginny,
>   > 
>   > >Why do you print on both sides? 
>   > 
>   > I'm not doing any double sided printing, but when I'm working on the
>   > last little tweaks for a first-time final print of a new image
(or the
>   > first time on some paper) I often make some test prints.  All of
these
>   > go back into the box and are reused for future test prints.  Also,
>   > with the 2400's ABW system I often make a lot of tests with a new
>   > image to determine the best color tone for it.  Over time this
can all
>   > add up to a lot of paper, so a double sided paper does save some
>   > money.  Kayenta is also 2-sided.
>   > 
>   > 
>   > >I'm not sure what the Paper Chase article is.
>   > 
>   > Article #5 at the link below is called "The Great Paper Chase", and
>   > lists 26 matte papers and their attributes, such as weight, cotton
>   > content, OBA content, paper color, cold/warm tone (how it renders
>   > carbon inks), dmax, etc.  It's a good way to get a quick overview of
>   > the popular papers.
>   > 
>   > 
>   > >Yes. I remember the first time I tried TX. I used FG-7 as the
>   > >developer. Ugh! So much grain. 
>   > 
>   > I remember FG-7 <g>.  It made a pretty good two-bath developer,
but it
>   > couldn't beat HC-110 for sheer beauty.
>   > 
>   > >>I then took a darkroom seminar with Fred Picker. He spoke about 
>   > >HC-110 (1:31) and the testing needed to find my own personal ASA 
>   > >valid for my shutter, and, also how to calculate the true
develpment 
>   > >time for TX with my equipment. He said that Kodak was over-
>   > >developing the film to push the ASA up.  Well, the ASA I wound up 
>   > >using was 280 or so. And, the development time was a minute or 2 
>   > >less than what Kodak specified. (They were pushing the ASA by 
>   > >overdeveloping, hence, more grain) Viola! TX became a fine grain 
>   > >film! The difference was amazing, breathtaking!
>   > 
>   > Fred Picker's teachings had a huge effect on me (his practical
>   > approach to testing and simplification has been a direct
influence on
>   > my path into digital printing).  I read his book and
newsletters, and
>   > did all as you describe (also used his modified Pentax spotmeter, a
>   > great innovation).  I ended up using ASA 200 and HC-110 at 1:48 as I
>   > did mostly landscape and wanted to pull even more most of the time.
>   > Occasionally I would mark a roll for special treatment, but the
dilute
>   > HC-110 gave a very nice long scale negative.  No other
film/developer
>   > combination I tried came even close to what it would do (this
>   > conversation is making me nostalgic <g>.
>   > 
>   > 
>   > 
>   > >Hmmm....I could afford the 5D. But, what would a couple of basic
>   > >lenses cost me?
>   > 
>   > Well, mortgage your home, send your kids to work at Safeway...
>   > 
>   > 
>   > 
>   > >Is it just me or is it hard to find 11X14 paper nowadays? I really
>   > >like that size and would use it a lot more if I could find it! 
>   > 
>   > I've only seen one paper in that size (something from Epson in
>   > CompUSA), but I would use 13x19 anyway because I want some border
>   > paper around the image.  I no longer trim off the borders and dry
>   > mount.  These papers don't ripple like silver papers, and most don't
>   > curl either.  They can be held flat and smooth by the window mat.  I
>   > now hinge the top of the print to the back of the window mat, and
>   > hinge the top of the window mat to the backing board.  This
speeds up
>   > the matting enormously.  The window is cut larger than the image
just
>   > like with a mounted print, but the mat is now pressing down on the
>   > print's border paper, holding it flat.  It looks the same as a
mounted
>   > print and the signature is now on the print instead of the backing
>   > board.  Dry mounting is one of the things I was happy to leave
behind.  
>   > 
>   > 
>   > 
>   > >Can you recommend a good supplier?
>   > 
>   > Dourian and Aurora must be purchased from Red River, MerNat and
MerSm
>   > from Hawk Mtn.  I get PR from Shades of Paper.  VFA and Kayenta
can be
>   > found lots of places, just look for good prices, sales, etc.  Before
>   > ordering any Kayenta, be sure to read the Paper Chase article
about it
>   > - there was a bad batch out there that may still be on vendors'
shelves.
>   > 
>   > 
>   > >what does K3 stand for? I know it refers to the inkset
>   > > but not sure what it designates.
>   > 
>   > It refers to the three shades of black or gray (K, LK, LLK).  It
>   > differs from the 2200 UC ink which has just K and LK.  The 3rd gray
>   > ink is one reason for the nice smooth tones it produces.
>   > 
>   > 
>   > 
>   > >Thanks for the wealth of info Clayton and the nice sharing of 
>   > >your early years in photography.
>   > 
>   > You're welcome.  It's nice to read your story as well and find
kindred
>   > souls with similar backgrounds.  There are quite a few forum members
>   > who used Fred Picker's methods.  I've had a lot of nice email
>   > correspondence over the past few years.
>   > 
>   > Regards,
>   > Clayton
>   > 
>   > 
>   > Info on black and white digital printing at    
>   > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>   >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
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> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

jonathan wills wrote:

>Nikon's brand new D200 should be considered.
>
>  
>
I have a d200, and I'm very happy with it.

Hello Ginny,

>Dear Clayton,
>Just some quick feedback: I received my Merlin Natural from Hawk
>Mtn. today and did a few test prints. Wow! What a lovely paper. 

Glad to hear I didn't steer you to something you didn't like <g>.  One
thing that's nice about it is it's easy to find pleasing ABW tone
settings.  One of my favorites is 2h,10v.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

You should read the review at DP Review which contains comparisons of the D200, D2X and EOS 5D. I think you would find it very helpful

Woody Spedden

----- Original Message ----
From: Peter De Smidt <pdesmidt@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 2:11:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Few B&W 2400 questions

    jonathan wills wrote:
 
 >Nikon's brand new D200 should be considered.
 >
 >  
 >
 I have a d200, and I'm very happy with it.
      

  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
 
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
 
 If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
 
 Please follow these basic guidelines:
 - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
 - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
 - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
 - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files section:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Oh...I can't wait to try those settings!

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
<cj@...> wrote:

>
> Hello Ginny,
> 
> >Dear Clayton,
> >Just some quick feedback: I received my Merlin Natural from Hawk
> >Mtn. today and did a few test prints. Wow! What a lovely paper. 
> 
> Glad to hear I didn't steer you to something you didn't like <g>.  One
> thing that's nice about it is it's easy to find pleasing ABW tone
> settings.  One of my favorites is 2h,10v.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>

I find this paragraph in the conclusion of the review VERY
interesting especially in view of pricing differences:
   "When it was announced in November last year the D200 caused quite
stir (and not just in the Nikon camp). It was clear from the start
that about the only thing this camera shared with its official
predecessor (the D100) was the Nikon badge and it's '00 name. From a
design, build, features and performance point of view this camera
really creates its own niche, it would be a pity to label it as
'semi-pro' because in use you soon realize that it's a professional
camera. Which brings us to the competition, from a build/features
point of view it's clearly ahead of the Canon EOS 20D/30D and in my
opinion a step above the EOS 5D, a baby D2X."


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, jonathan wills
<jw@...> wrote:

>
> Ginny wrote:
> >  >And, I must admit, I still have NOT bought a digital camera. I'm
> >>waiting for something in the 12-14 megpixel range to be affordable.
> >>Or has that happened alrdy?
> 
> 
> At 5:32 AM +0000 2/22/06, Clayton Jones responded:
> 
> >"Affordable" is relative, of course.  Probably the Canon 5D is the
> >best thing going right now, 12mp and about $3K.  The 20D, at 8mp, is
> >another excellent price/image quality deal at about $1.5K (and the
> >Rebel XT is even lower cost for same image quality, just lacks some
> >features).  I'm using an 8mp Canon Pro-1 (smaller sensor than 20D, so
> >lesser image quality).  8mp is enough to make acceptable 11x14s and
> >still have room to crop.  I consider it to be the minimum acceptable
> >resolution.
> >
> 
> Nikon's brand new D200 should be considered.
> 
> Full comparison table between the 5D, 20D and the D200:
> 
> http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond200/page25.asp
> 
> That page also includes a nice bit offering some perspective on the 
> megapixel chase.
> -- 
> 
> jonathan wills
> _______
> wills design
> portland, oregon, usa
>

Another very good review of the D200.

http://www.nwpphotoforum.com/ubbthreads/information/php/2006_Articles/jparker/jparker.php




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, <elwood@...> wrote:
>
> You should read the review at DP Review which contains comparisons
of the D200, D2X and EOS 5D. I think you would find it very helpful
> 
> Woody Spedden
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Peter De Smidt <pdesmidt@...>
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 2:11:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Few B&W 2400 questions
> 
>     jonathan wills wrote:
>  
>  >Nikon's brand new D200 should be considered.
>  >
>  >  
>  >
>  I have a d200, and I'm very happy with it.
>       
> 
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
resources as they are often being updated.
>  
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>  
>  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by
visiting this same page.
>  
>  Please follow these basic guidelines:
>  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
to keep them short.
>  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from
the membership without notice.
>  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital
B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be
removed from the membership.
>  - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules
and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
Owner and Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the
Files section:
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>  
>  BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER
AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE
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DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE
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>   
> 
>               
> 
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>      
>  
>      
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Just reminder to change the name of the thread as the topic changes. Also,
remember the poor person who might be wading through these posts to find
2400 info.
 
Also please relate your camera comparisons to digital B&W printing, the
topic of the group. Which makes a better B&W print, D5 or D200?
 
Best,
Martin

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
ginnylady33
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 7:05 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Few B&W 2400 questions


  Another very good review of the D200.

http://www.nwpphotoforum.com/ubbthreads/information/php/2006_Articles/jparke
r/jparker.php




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, <elwood@...> wrote:
>
> You should read the review at DP Review which contains comparisons
of the D200, D2X and EOS 5D. I think you would find it very helpful
> 
> Woody Spedden
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Peter De Smidt <pdesmidt@...>
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 2:11:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Few B&W 2400 questions
> 
>     jonathan wills wrote:
>  
>  >Nikon's brand new D200 should be considered.
>  >
>  >  
>  >
>  I have a d200, and I'm very happy with it.
>       
> 
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
resources as they are often being updated.
>  
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>  
>  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by
visiting this same page.
>  
>  Please follow these basic guidelines:
>  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
to keep them short.
>  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from
the membership without notice.
>  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital
B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be
removed from the membership.
>  - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules
and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
Owner and Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the
Files section:
>  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>  
>  BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER
AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE
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CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,
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YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES),
RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,
THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF
YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD
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>   
> 
>               
> 
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> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>






Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

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Please follow these basic guidelines:
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Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
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