Digital BW, The Print

Hi,

it's probably a lot of personal preferences but can anyone recommend me what type of 
papers (brand, type, etc) to use if i want to prepare some prints for sale. The prints will be 
matted and framed. Seems like alot of people prefer the fine art matt papers, is there a 
reasoning behind this? 

Will be printed out on an Epson 4800. 


Thanks!

Derrick

Derrick:

> Seems like a lot of people prefer the fine art matt papers, is  
> there a reasoning behind this?

It seems to me that a few years ago printing on glossy-type papers  
was problematic -- bronzing and gloss differential -- and therefore  
people started using matte papers with they eventually fell in love  
because these papers have a very good feel to them. Now, however,  
with K3 inks the problems with glossy papers have been largely  
eliminated.

If your photographs depend mainly on the quality of mid-gray tones,  
then matte papers are fine; but if your photographs need rich, deep  
blacks then glossy-type papers will be better.  Anselm Adams in  
_The_Print_ (p. 45) states:

> Maximum image brilliance is obtained on a smooth, glossy-surfaced  
> paper, which can have a reflectance range of up to 1: 100 and  
> higher...The matte papers have much lower brilliance, with a  
> reflection-density range of about 1:25...I use glossy papers  
> comparable to Kodak's "F"- surface. Unferrotyped, these papers give  
> a smooth semi-gloss finish with long tonal range.

What I have been doing is printing with my 7600 on Epson Semi-Matte  
and then have the prints laminated with a glossy laminate. This gives  
very rich blacks and also means that the prints can be framed with  
glass, which I like. Now that I'm getting a 9800, I'll see whether I  
can get away without lamination, and still have rich blacks. Bill  
Atkinson states:

> I use Epson Premium Luster Photo Paper (250), mostly in 36 inch  
> rolls. I used to use Epson Premium Semimatte Photo Paper (250)  
> because I prefer its smoother surface. I switched to Premium Luster  
> because with the 9800 the luster gives deeper blacks and richer  
> colors. On premium luster, the best black I could get with the 9600  
> was L=10.2, but with the 9800 I now get L=3.4 This makes a  
> significant difference in the overall clarity and tonal range of  
> the print. When I place a 9800 print next to a 9600 print, the 9600  
> print looks "smoked" in the shadows by comparison. When Epson  
> Premium Luster is used with the 9800's advanced black and white  
> mode the results are gorgeous. I am always experimenting with  
> different papers, but the Epson Premium Luster still gives me the  
> best results.

--Mitch/Bangkok

Derrick:

I should have quoted the next paragraph of what Bill Atkinson wrote,  
in which he gives his views on matte papers:

>  I keep testing fine art papers because I like the texture and feel  
> of a nice heavyweight matte paper, and I have seen some  attractive  
> work by other artists printed on matte papers.  However, I have not  
> yet found any art paper that can come close to  the depth and  
> clarity that I get from photo papers.  The best black I can get  
> with most matte papers is L=23 instead of L=3.4 This makes a huge  
> and unacceptable degradation of image quality.  When I make the  
> exact same print on both papers and  place framed prints side-by- 
> side on easels, I and my friends always end up choosing the print  
> made on photo paper.   Once the textured edges are covered with a  
> mat, and the rest of the image is framed with plexiglass, all that  
> is left of the  art paper print is a huge drop in clarity,  
> saturation, depth, and detail.  Even pastel orchid prints look  
> better on photo paper.   I am still waiting for someone to make a  
> rag paper that will deliver the depth, clarity, and and tonal range  
> of luster.   It would be nice if this paper could use the photo  
> black ink so I didn't have to compromise the reliability and  
> repeatability  of my printer by switching back and forth between  
> different inks.

--Mitch/Bangkok

This is a point I've been reconsidering myself.  By way of background, I started out wi0th 
the Epson 2200 when it came out (4-5 years ago now), then moved to a 4000 and a 9600, 
and recently moved to a 4800 and 9800.  What Mitch describes is probably correct: most 
of us doing "fine art" printing viewed glossy prints from the original Ultrachromes as 
unacceptable and therefore focused on matte papers.  Once you start printing with matte 
papers that have some character and good blacks/color rendition (Hahn./Innova/Velvet 
Fine Art, etc), you fall in love with it.  Especially when held in the hand (or seen unframed), 
they just have a more artistic feel than glossy photo papers which, in terms of tactile feel, 
weight, and character, are kinda boring.  And, at least for me, I think there was a bit of 
snootiness: "Real artists use matte papers; commercial guys use glossy!"

Now that the K3 inks have largely (not completely) minimized the problems with printing 
on glossy paper, I find myself reconsidering whether I'll start printing more glossy/luster.  
I probably still wouldn't have considered this, as "matte" has become synonymous in my 
mind with "fine art" except for two things: (a) the first print I needed to do for a client right 
after I got my 9800 was on glossy paper, so I initialized it that way and got to print some 
of my own images with Photo Black form the get-go and (b) papers like Crane Silver Rag 
and Hahn. Photo Rag Satin (which is actually a matte paper using MK ink, but does have a 
sheen, so I put it in the "non-matte" category).  Even my current favorite matte paper 
(Innova Smooth Cotton) doesn't render blacks and saturated colors as nicely as Epson 
Premium Semi-Matte, nor does it print B&W as well as Hahn. Photo Rag Satin or Crane's 
Silver Rag.  I just printed two 36x36 prints on my 9800 w. Epson Semi-Matte (one color 
and one B&W) and they're amazing.

So, I'm starting to wonder how much of my decision to focus on matte papers until now is 
about the experience I have (I like the tactile qualities and texture of matte papers) versus 
issues of visual image quality and/or the experience the client has (as Mitch noted, once 
the prints are matted and behind glass, you've minimized the "character" of matte papers 
anyway).  And, I realized, I never printed matte papers in the darkroom -- I always printed 
air dried fiber pearl surfaces.

So, with the K3 printers, I'm now leaning toward glossy/luster papers for most purposes, 
and reserving matte papers for where the image particularly calls for it (e.g., I want to 
emphasize the image's texture or abstract feel) or where the image will be presented 
unframed.  There is still the issue of "outgassing" of framed glossy Ultrachrome prints, 
though, and I don't know that there's an acceptable solution to that, other than letting the 
print air out for many many days before framing (reports are that the recommended "put a 
sheet of plain paper on top of th eprint for 48 hours doesn't cut it).

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, mitcha@m... wrote:

> It seems to me that a few years ago printing on glossy-type papers  
> was problematic -- bronzing and gloss differential -- and therefore  
> people started using matte papers with they eventually fell in love  
> because these papers have a very good feel to them. Now, however,  
> with K3 inks the problems with glossy papers have been largely  
> eliminated.

I should add that my experience with doing prints for clients is that the average client (one 
who isn't immersed in the world of digital printing) expects to print on glossy/luster 
surfaces.  In the past, I've talked them out of it (mostly) by explaining the benefits of matte 
paper for fine art printing.  (This wouldn't apply to people printing on canvas, of course).

Chip:

Interesting post.

> So, I'm starting to wonder how much of my decision to focus on  
> matte papers until now is about the experience I have (I like the  
> tactile qualities and texture of matte papers) versus issues of  
> visual image quality and/or the experience the client has (as Mitch  
> noted, once the prints are matted and behind glass, you've  
> minimized the "character" of matte papers anyway). And, I realized,  
> I never printed matte papers in the darkroom -- I always printed  
> air dried fiber pearl surfaces.
>
> So, with the K3 printers, I'm now leaning toward glossy/luster  
> papers for most purposes, and reserving matte papers for where the  
> image particularly calls for it (e.g., I want to emphasize the  
> image's texture or abstract feel) or where the image will be  
> presented unframed.

In my view, the matte papers are good for pictures that don't have  
deep blacks and rely mainly on mid-tones; but for pictures that have  
large areas of deep blacks or that depend on high contrast the glossy  
papers are much better, not only because of the richness of the  
blacks but also because of the higher dynamic range. I haven't been  
willing to give up rich, deep blacks for the sensuous feel of some of  
the matte paper.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, I've been laminating Semi-Matte  
which produces deeper and richer blacks, and allows display or  
framing without glass. I'll have to see whether lamination is still  
necessary or desirable with the K3 inks, as my new 9800 arrives today.


> There is still the issue of "outgassing" of framed glossy  
> Ultrachrome prints, though, and I don't know that there's an  
> acceptable solution to that, other than letting the print air out  
> for many many days before framing (reports are that the recommended  
> "put a sheet of plain paper on top of the print for 48 hours  
> doesn't cut it).

I've been printing with the 7600 on Epson Semi-Matte and have had no  
problem with outgassing even though the pictures have been in the hot  
and humid environment of Bangkok for a couple of years.

--Mitch/Bangkok

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for the replies! I will start off by trying some lustre papers. Experiment a little.

Sawadee-kup Mitch,

Could you tell us what materials you are using for lamination?  How is it applied?  Single 
side, or back side too?

kap-cun-kap.

Josh

> 
> As I mentioned in my earlier post, I've been laminating Semi-Matte  
> which produces deeper and richer blacks, and allows display or  
> framing without glass. I'll have to see whether lamination is still  
> necessary or desirable with the K3 inks, as my new 9800 arrives today.
> 
> I've been printing with the 7600 on Epson Semi-Matte and have had no  
> problem with outgassing even though the pictures have been in the hot  
> and humid environment of Bangkok for a couple of years.
> 
> --Mitch/Bangkok
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Josh:

I'm not laminating myself but having a graphics shop do it. They cold- 
laminate on a lamination press using a glossy laminate.

--Mitch/Bangkok