Digital BW, The Print

Hello All,

This is not about whether these inks are dye, pigment, infused, or 
not. I am intersted in printing b/w on rag and sometimes RC papers 
using a single color inkset. I currently use a 4000 with OEM UC inks 
for b/w (90%) and color (10%) prints. My reasons for exploring 
NanoChromes (1) I just like to play with inks, (2) get better Dmax on 
matte papers, and (3) be rid of the pesky gloss differential/bronzing 
on RC papers.

QTR is an awesome tool - thank you Roy Harrington!

The challenge posed by the NanoChrome inks is the relatively 
cool/blue tone of the grey (LK) ink. My experiments are conducted on 
an R220 printer. I filled the LK ink in the redundant C position.

In QTR ink configuration, I have been able to neutralize to a great 
extent this problem. For EPSG paper the settings that work are:  
Default limit = 80%, NO K boost
LK Density = 30
Y Copy Curve from LK, limit = 6%
LC Copy Curve from LK, limit = 2%
LM Copy Curve from LK, limit = 20%

After linerarization, the prints on EPSG, EPG, and Kirkland papers 
are, well, stunning! My prefered paper is EPSG. Dmax is in the 2.4 
range.

The fade resistance of these remain unknown, so I am waiting a bit 
more before loading these inks onto the 4000.

Regards.

Shilesh

I get that Dmax with UT7 and dotless highlights.  I’m struggling to
appreciate what exactly the Wow factor is with these inks for BW.  Help me
out.

Best regards,
John Moody

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Shilesh
Jani
Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 1:31 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] NanoChrome QTR Printing

Hello All,

This is not about whether these inks are dye, pigment, infused, or
not. I am intersted in printing b/w on rag and sometimes RC papers
using a single color inkset. I currently use a 4000 with OEM UC inks
for b/w (90%) and color (10%) prints. My reasons for exploring
NanoChromes (1) I just like to play with inks, (2) get better Dmax on
matte papers, and (3) be rid of the pesky gloss differential/bronzing
on RC papers.

QTR is an awesome tool - thank you Roy Harrington!

The challenge posed by the NanoChrome inks is the relatively
cool/blue tone of the grey (LK) ink. My experiments are conducted on
an R220 printer. I filled the LK ink in the redundant C position.

In QTR ink configuration, I have been able to neutralize to a great
extent this problem. For EPSG paper the settings that work are:
Default limit = 80%, NO K boost
LK Density = 30
Y Copy Curve from LK, limit = 6%
LC Copy Curve from LK, limit = 2%
LM Copy Curve from LK, limit = 20%

After linerarization, the prints on EPSG, EPG, and Kirkland papers
are, well, stunning! My prefered paper is EPSG. Dmax is in the 2.4
range.

The fade resistance of these remain unknown, so I am waiting a bit
more before loading these inks onto the 4000.

Regards.

Shilesh





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Shilesh,

You probably noticed that the K ink is also an icy cold blue.  I  
tried using it for BO printing in the PK slot of my 4000 (other slots  
are using piezotones right now) and got some very nice looking BO  
prints on Hahnemule Photo Rag Satin (dmax 1.93) with no bronzing or  
GD, but the icy blue hue is just too much for me.  If this cold hue  
of the black inks can be effectively neutralized in QTR then I may  
switch over to the full inkset.

Carl

On Jan 21, 2006, at 1:31 AM, Shilesh Jani wrote:

> Hello All,
>
> This is not about whether these inks are dye, pigment, infused, or
> not. I am intersted in printing b/w on rag and sometimes RC papers
> using a single color inkset. I currently use a 4000 with OEM UC inks
> for b/w (90%) and color (10%) prints. My reasons for exploring
> NanoChromes (1) I just like to play with inks, (2) get better Dmax on
> matte papers, and (3) be rid of the pesky gloss differential/bronzing
> on RC papers.
>
> QTR is an awesome tool - thank you Roy Harrington!
>
> The challenge posed by the NanoChrome inks is the relatively
> cool/blue tone of the grey (LK) ink. My experiments are conducted on
> an R220 printer. I filled the LK ink in the redundant C position.
>
> In QTR ink configuration, I have been able to neutralize to a great
> extent this problem. For EPSG paper the settings that work are:
> Default limit = 80%, NO K boost
> LK Density = 30
> Y Copy Curve from LK, limit = 6%
> LC Copy Curve from LK, limit = 2%
> LM Copy Curve from LK, limit = 20%
>
> After linerarization, the prints on EPSG, EPG, and Kirkland papers
> are, well, stunning! My prefered paper is EPSG. Dmax is in the 2.4
> range.
>
> The fade resistance of these remain unknown, so I am waiting a bit
> more before loading these inks onto the 4000.
>
> Regards.
>
> Shilesh

John,

Good question. K3 printers with AWB achieve the same high Dmax too. 
The wow factor with NanoChrome is ABSOLUTELY no gloss 
differential/bronzing. I do not see any objectionable metamerism 
either.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Moody" 
<moodymz3@y...> wrote:
>
> I get that Dmax with UT7 and dotless highlights.  I'm struggling to
> appreciate what exactly the Wow factor is with these inks for BW.  
Help me
> out.
> 
> Best regards,
> John Moody
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of 
Shilesh
> Jani
> Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 1:31 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] NanoChrome QTR Printing
> 
> Hello All,
> 
> This is not about whether these inks are dye, pigment, infused, or
> not. I am intersted in printing b/w on rag and sometimes RC papers
> using a single color inkset. I currently use a 4000 with OEM UC inks
> for b/w (90%) and color (10%) prints. My reasons for exploring
> NanoChromes (1) I just like to play with inks, (2) get better Dmax 
on
> matte papers, and (3) be rid of the pesky gloss 
differential/bronzing

> on RC papers.
> 
> QTR is an awesome tool - thank you Roy Harrington!
> 
> The challenge posed by the NanoChrome inks is the relatively
> cool/blue tone of the grey (LK) ink. My experiments are conducted on
> an R220 printer. I filled the LK ink in the redundant C position.
> 
> In QTR ink configuration, I have been able to neutralize to a great
> extent this problem. For EPSG paper the settings that work are:
> Default limit = 80%, NO K boost
> LK Density = 30
> Y Copy Curve from LK, limit = 6%
> LC Copy Curve from LK, limit = 2%
> LM Copy Curve from LK, limit = 20%
> 
> After linerarization, the prints on EPSG, EPG, and Kirkland papers
> are, well, stunning! My prefered paper is EPSG. Dmax is in the 2.4
> range.
> 
> The fade resistance of these remain unknown, so I am waiting a bit
> more before loading these inks onto the 4000.
> 
> Regards.
> 
> Shilesh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Carl,

Yup, the K ink is cold. That dooes not bother me in QTR printing.

When you printed BO with these inks on your 4000, what is your 
opinion of the dot structure (dither)? Is it as smooth as the OEM PK? 
I belive the 4000 has one of the smoothest structure, much better in 
BO than 2200, 1280, etc. I have a suspicion that is why the Dmax is 
lower on the 4000. The R220 is rather a coarse machine for BO and 
also for QTR with the inkset up I have used.

I am not quite ready to put these inks (or even just the K) on my 
4000. When you loaded the K on your 4000, did you find issues with 
clogs due to interactions with the PiezoTone inks?

Regards.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield 
<scho@m...> wrote:
>
> Shilesh,
> 
> You probably noticed that the K ink is also an icy cold blue.  I  
> tried using it for BO printing in the PK slot of my 4000 (other 
slots  
> are using piezotones right now) and got some very nice looking BO  
> prints on Hahnemule Photo Rag Satin (dmax 1.93) with no bronzing 
or  
> GD, but the icy blue hue is just too much for me.  If this cold 
hue  
> of the black inks can be effectively neutralized in QTR then I may  
> switch over to the full inkset.
> 
> Carl
> 
> On Jan 21, 2006, at 1:31 AM, Shilesh Jani wrote:
> 
> > Hello All,
> >
> > This is not about whether these inks are dye, pigment, infused, or
> > not. I am intersted in printing b/w on rag and sometimes RC papers
> > using a single color inkset. I currently use a 4000 with OEM UC 
inks
> > for b/w (90%) and color (10%) prints. My reasons for exploring
> > NanoChromes (1) I just like to play with inks, (2) get better 
Dmax on
> > matte papers, and (3) be rid of the pesky gloss 
differential/bronzing
> > on RC papers.
> >
> > QTR is an awesome tool - thank you Roy Harrington!
> >
> > The challenge posed by the NanoChrome inks is the relatively
> > cool/blue tone of the grey (LK) ink. My experiments are conducted 
on
> > an R220 printer. I filled the LK ink in the redundant C position.
> >
> > In QTR ink configuration, I have been able to neutralize to a 
great

> > extent this problem. For EPSG paper the settings that work are:
> > Default limit = 80%, NO K boost
> > LK Density = 30
> > Y Copy Curve from LK, limit = 6%
> > LC Copy Curve from LK, limit = 2%
> > LM Copy Curve from LK, limit = 20%
> >
> > After linerarization, the prints on EPSG, EPG, and Kirkland papers
> > are, well, stunning! My prefered paper is EPSG. Dmax is in the 2.4
> > range.
> >
> > The fade resistance of these remain unknown, so I am waiting a bit
> > more before loading these inks onto the 4000.
> >
> > Regards.
> >
> > Shilesh
>

Shilesh,

Dither still looks good on most papers.  Epson Premium Semimatte gave  
me some problems with bad bronzing.  Tried using QTR for that paper  
so I could reduce ink limit, but had to go all the way down to limit  
30 to get rid of bronzing and then took a big dmax hit because of the  
low limit.  Dither seemed coarser on semimatte also (this is a very  
smooth surface so it shows imperfections more readily).  I've only  
had the Nanochrome K loaded for a couple of days but no clogging  
problems so far.

Carl

On Jan 21, 2006, at 1:56 PM, Shilesh Jani wrote:

> Carl,
>
> Yup, the K ink is cold. That dooes not bother me in QTR printing.
>
> When you printed BO with these inks on your 4000, what is your
> opinion of the dot structure (dither)? Is it as smooth as the OEM PK?
> I belive the 4000 has one of the smoothest structure, much better in
> BO than 2200, 1280, etc. I have a suspicion that is why the Dmax is
> lower on the 4000. The R220 is rather a coarse machine for BO and
> also for QTR with the inkset up I have used.
>
> I am not quite ready to put these inks (or even just the K) on my
> 4000. When you loaded the K on your 4000, did you find issues with
> clogs due to interactions with the PiezoTone inks?
>
> Regards.
>
> Shilesh
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
> <scho@m...> wrote:
>>
>> Shilesh,
>>
>> You probably noticed that the K ink is also an icy cold blue.  I
>> tried using it for BO printing in the PK slot of my 4000 (other
> slots
>> are using piezotones right now) and got some very nice looking BO
>> prints on Hahnemule Photo Rag Satin (dmax 1.93) with no bronzing
> or
>> GD, but the icy blue hue is just too much for me.  If this cold
> hue
>> of the black inks can be effectively neutralized in QTR then I may
>> switch over to the full inkset.
>>
>> Carl
>>
>> On Jan 21, 2006, at 1:31 AM, Shilesh Jani wrote:
>>
>>> Hello All,
>>>
>>> This is not about whether these inks are dye, pigment, infused, or
>>> not. I am intersted in printing b/w on rag and sometimes RC papers
>>> using a single color inkset. I currently use a 4000 with OEM UC
> inks
>>> for b/w (90%) and color (10%) prints. My reasons for exploring
>>> NanoChromes (1) I just like to play with inks, (2) get better
> Dmax on
>>> matte papers, and (3) be rid of the pesky gloss
> differential/bronzing
>>> on RC papers.
>>>
>>> QTR is an awesome tool - thank you Roy Harrington!
>>>
>>> The challenge posed by the NanoChrome inks is the relatively
>>> cool/blue tone of the grey (LK) ink. My experiments are conducted
> on
>>> an R220 printer. I filled the LK ink in the redundant C position.
>>>
>>> In QTR ink configuration, I have been able to neutralize to a
> great
>>> extent this problem. For EPSG paper the settings that work are:
>>> Default limit = 80%, NO K boost
>>> LK Density = 30
>>> Y Copy Curve from LK, limit = 6%
>>> LC Copy Curve from LK, limit = 2%
>>> LM Copy Curve from LK, limit = 20%
>>>
>>> After linerarization, the prints on EPSG, EPG, and Kirkland papers
>>> are, well, stunning! My prefered paper is EPSG. Dmax is in the 2.4
>>> range.
>>>
>>> The fade resistance of these remain unknown, so I am waiting a bit
>>> more before loading these inks onto the 4000.
>>>
>>> Regards.
>>>
>>> Shilesh

Carl,

Thank you for your observations. I am getting a new 2400 shipped to 
me and I am going to try the NanoChrome K ink with UT-FS inks for b/w 
printing on Hahnemuhle papers. I plan on keeping the OEM LM and LC 
for toning purposes.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield 
<scho@m...> wrote:
>
> Shilesh,
> 
> Dither still looks good on most papers.  Epson Premium Semimatte 
gave  
> me some problems with bad bronzing.  Tried using QTR for that 
paper  
> so I could reduce ink limit, but had to go all the way down to 
limit  
> 30 to get rid of bronzing and then took a big dmax hit because of 
the  
> low limit.  Dither seemed coarser on semimatte also (this is a 
very  
> smooth surface so it shows imperfections more readily).  I've only  
> had the Nanochrome K loaded for a couple of days but no clogging  
> problems so far.
> 
> Carl
> 
> On Jan 21, 2006, at 1:56 PM, Shilesh Jani wrote:
> 
> > Carl,
> >
> > Yup, the K ink is cold. That dooes not bother me in QTR printing.
> >
> > When you printed BO with these inks on your 4000, what is your
> > opinion of the dot structure (dither)? Is it as smooth as the OEM 
PK?
> > I belive the 4000 has one of the smoothest structure, much better 
in
> > BO than 2200, 1280, etc. I have a suspicion that is why the Dmax 
is
> > lower on the 4000. The R220 is rather a coarse machine for BO and
> > also for QTR with the inkset up I have used.
> >
> > I am not quite ready to put these inks (or even just the K) on my
> > 4000. When you loaded the K on your 4000, did you find issues with
> > clogs due to interactions with the PiezoTone inks?
> >
> > Regards.
> >
> > Shilesh
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl 
Schofield
> > <scho@m...> wrote:
> >>
> >> Shilesh,
> >>
> >> You probably noticed that the K ink is also an icy cold blue.  I
> >> tried using it for BO printing in the PK slot of my 4000 (other
> > slots
> >> are using piezotones right now) and got some very nice looking BO
> >> prints on Hahnemule Photo Rag Satin (dmax 1.93) with no bronzing
> > or
> >> GD, but the icy blue hue is just too much for me.  If this cold
> > hue
> >> of the black inks can be effectively neutralized in QTR then I 
may
> >> switch over to the full inkset.
> >>
> >> Carl
> >>
> >> On Jan 21, 2006, at 1:31 AM, Shilesh Jani wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hello All,
> >>>
> >>> This is not about whether these inks are dye, pigment, infused, 
or
> >>> not. I am intersted in printing b/w on rag and sometimes RC 
papers
> >>> using a single color inkset. I currently use a 4000 with OEM UC
> > inks
> >>> for b/w (90%) and color (10%) prints. My reasons for exploring
> >>> NanoChromes (1) I just like to play with inks, (2) get better
> > Dmax on
> >>> matte papers, and (3) be rid of the pesky gloss
> > differential/bronzing
> >>> on RC papers.
> >>>
> >>> QTR is an awesome tool - thank you Roy Harrington!
> >>>
> >>> The challenge posed by the NanoChrome inks is the relatively
> >>> cool/blue tone of the grey (LK) ink. My experiments are 
conducted
> > on
> >>> an R220 printer. I filled the LK ink in the redundant C 
position.
> >>>
> >>> In QTR ink configuration, I have been able to neutralize to a
> > great
> >>> extent this problem. For EPSG paper the settings that work are:
> >>> Default limit = 80%, NO K boost
> >>> LK Density = 30
> >>> Y Copy Curve from LK, limit = 6%
> >>> LC Copy Curve from LK, limit = 2%
> >>> LM Copy Curve from LK, limit = 20%
> >>>
> >>> After linerarization, the prints on EPSG, EPG, and Kirkland 
papers
> >>> are, well, stunning! My prefered paper is EPSG. Dmax is in the 
2.4
> >>> range.
> >>>
> >>> The fade resistance of these remain unknown, so I am waiting a 
bit

> >>> more before loading these inks onto the 4000.
> >>>
> >>> Regards.
> >>>
> >>> Shilesh
>

I just recieved two test prints from Steve Kale printed with the Nanochrome
inks on Photo Rag. 

I gave him a test file, using a selection of my own images along with a
stepwedge, then he made two prints using a custom QTR curve, with and
without a QTR create ICC profile. 

This is by far the best blacks I have ever seen on any matte paper. They
simply look fantastic. Deep, rich blacks with absolutely no surface
reflections or sheen.

I printed the same print on HPR with Eboni and the MIS PRO inks using the
QTR UC curves, and when held next to the Nanonchrome print the Eboni looks
flat and lifeless. 

I measured the dmax to 2.01 with my X-Rite 810, but that's not the whole
story. Visually the dmax, to my eye, appears as good as or better than what
I get with PKN and Gloss Optimizer on Epson Premium Semigloss, which I has a
dmax of 2.3. Intially I was surprised by this, because I was expecting the
appearance of the blacks to be better than Eboni, but duller than those on a
really good glossy print. I think the reason is the total lack of any
distracting reflections with the Nanochromes on HPR. If I hold glossy prints
at even a slight angle surface sheen and reflections starts to show up, and
you lose any advantage you had with the extra dmax. With matte prints there
is none of this. Obviously measured dmax is not everything.

I really, really hope these inks turn out to be archival. This is what I've
always wanted my matte prints to look like, and I would hate to get my hopes
up like this just to discover the inks are useless.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

How about tonality in general? Are you seeing noteworthy differences
between the nanochromes and the other inksets you mentioned?

Chris Hargens


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Staver"
<daniel@p...> wrote:
>
> I just recieved two test prints from Steve Kale printed with the
Nanochrome
> inks on Photo Rag. 
> 
> I gave him a test file, using a selection of my own images along with a
> stepwedge, then he made two prints using a custom QTR curve, with and
> without a QTR create ICC profile. 
> 
> This is by far the best blacks I have ever seen on any matte paper. They
> simply look fantastic. Deep, rich blacks with absolutely no surface
> reflections or sheen.
> 
> I printed the same print on HPR with Eboni and the MIS PRO inks
using the
> QTR UC curves, and when held next to the Nanonchrome print the Eboni
looks
> flat and lifeless. 
> 
> I measured the dmax to 2.01 with my X-Rite 810, but that's not the whole
> story. Visually the dmax, to my eye, appears as good as or better
than what
> I get with PKN and Gloss Optimizer on Epson Premium Semigloss, which
I has a
> dmax of 2.3. Intially I was surprised by this, because I was
expecting the
> appearance of the blacks to be better than Eboni, but duller than
those on a
> really good glossy print. I think the reason is the total lack of any
> distracting reflections with the Nanochromes on HPR. If I hold
glossy prints
> at even a slight angle surface sheen and reflections starts to show
up, and
> you lose any advantage you had with the extra dmax. With matte
prints there
> is none of this. Obviously measured dmax is not everything.
> 
> I really, really hope these inks turn out to be archival. This is
what I've
> always wanted my matte prints to look like, and I would hate to get
my hopes

> up like this just to discover the inks are useless.
> 
> --
> Daniel Staver
> http://daniel.staver.no
>