Digital BW, The Print

anyone use a service for micro publishing b&w photography in small 
bound editions?  I've seen nice and cheap color output, but no samples 
of b&w.  Advice/recommendations appreciated!

Check out lulu.com and MyPublisher. I've only seen output from lulu.com and
it looked very good. It was mixed color and B&W images. The color was pretty
good. The tonality of B&W (brightness and contrast) looked good, but I never
saw the originals to judge.

 

Here is the pertinent info on lulu.com. The books have a flat price for up
to roughly 100 copies. Even if you are printing B&W only I think you may
want to go with the higher-priced color book process since it is printed on
a better paper with a higher resolution printer.  

 

The pricing boggles my mind it is so low. To buy just one book the charge
for the B&W process is $4.53 + $0.02/page. For the recommended higher
quality printer that also prints color the price is $4.53 + $0.15/page. The
100 page color book I saw was $20. Lulu.com will also sell the books for
you, at whatever price you want to set, and send you the profits. 

 

I do not work for lulul.com in any way, but I think self-publishing, at
these prices, is pretty exciting.

 

http://www.lulu.com/about/whatislulu.php

 

The book I bought to check out the quality was about Rangefinder
photography.

 

http://www.lulu.com/content/110604

 

There is one problem. From my limited experience, the printing industry does
not know much about color management. Lulu.com is no different. Read their
online forums for limited color management info.

 

Steve Bye

 

  _____  

From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Hahn
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 8:57 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] b&w micro publishing

 

anyone use a service for micro publishing b&w photography in small 
bound editions?  I've seen nice and cheap color output, but no samples 
of b&w.  Advice/recommendations appreciated!








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for the input Steve!  I was looking at Lulu and was worried 
that the $.15 per page was too good to be true, but have now found 
several people like yourself willing to say that the b&w is 
acceptable.

Looks like fun :)

mark

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Bye" 
<steve_bye@c...> wrote:
>
> Check out lulu.com and MyPublisher. I've only seen output from 
lulu.com and
> it looked very good. It was mixed color and B&W images. The color 
was pretty
> good. The tonality of B&W (brightness and contrast) looked good, 
but I never
> saw the originals to judge.
> 
>  
> 
> Here is the pertinent info on lulu.com. The books have a flat 
price for up
> to roughly 100 copies. Even if you are printing B&W only I think 
you may
> want to go with the higher-priced color book process since it is 
printed on
> a better paper with a higher resolution printer.  
> 
>  
> 
> The pricing boggles my mind it is so low. To buy just one book the 
charge
> for the B&W process is $4.53 + $0.02/page. For the recommended 
higher
> quality printer that also prints color the price is $4.53 + 
$0.15/page. The
> 100 page color book I saw was $20. Lulu.com will also sell the 
books for
> you, at whatever price you want to set, and send you the profits. 
> 
>  
> 
> I do not work for lulul.com in any way, but I think self-
publishing, at
> these prices, is pretty exciting.
> 
>  
> 
> http://www.lulu.com/about/whatislulu.php
> 
>  
> 
> The book I bought to check out the quality was about Rangefinder
> photography.
> 
>  
> 
> http://www.lulu.com/content/110604
> 
>  
> 
> There is one problem. From my limited experience, the printing 
industry does
> not know much about color management. Lulu.com is no different. 
Read their
> online forums for limited color management info.
> 
>  
> 
> Steve Bye
> 
>  
> 
>   _____  
> 
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Mark Hahn
> Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 8:57 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] b&w micro publishing
> 
>  
> 
> anyone use a service for micro publishing b&w photography in small 
> bound editions?  I've seen nice and cheap color output, but no 
samples 

> of b&w.  Advice/recommendations appreciated!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

The options on Lulu are kind of confusing.  The B&W print that is 
$0.02/page is like cheap paperback quality or newprinty kind of - I 
wouldn't recommend it.  I tried to print a test book of B&W images in 
color and wasn't happy.  I'll put the disclaimer that like most 
things, my images probably needed to be tweaked for their printers.  
I bought a copy of Light Leaks "magazine" and the quality was good - 
on par or better with MyPublisher - the color and B&W images looked 
good, the paper was nice.  You can go to 
http://www.colorcentriccorp.com for more information. They are one of 
the two printers that lulu uses.  It's kind of hard to figure out who 
does what with lulu and I agree that there isn't much info in for 
forums.This is what I was sent from colorcentric:

"I've attached an ICC profile for the Xerox iGen3, which if you are an
advanced user, may (and I stress may) help visually on screen if your
monitor is calibrated.  Our standard position is that having color
management turned off is the best route to take, as the system does a
pretty good job of rendering images.  But, if you prefer to "tweak" 
your photos, you can try the profile.  
The caveat is that the profile does not guarantee perfection, so we 
don't "guarantee" WYSIWYG from Photoshop, even with this profile 
being used."

I'm waiting for another color album to come - don't know what to 
expect.  Hope that helps. 

Earl

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Hahn" 
<markhahn2000@y...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the input Steve!  I was looking at Lulu and was worried 
> that the $.15 per page was too good to be true, but have now found 
> several people like yourself willing to say that the b&w is 
> acceptable.
> 
> Looks like fun :)
> 
> mark
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Bye" 
> <steve_bye@c...> wrote:
> >
> > Check out lulu.com and MyPublisher. I've only seen output from 
> lulu.com and
> > it looked very good. It was mixed color and B&W images. The color 
> was pretty
> > good. The tonality of B&W (brightness and contrast) looked good, 
> but I never
> > saw the originals to judge.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Here is the pertinent info on lulu.com. The books have a flat 
> price for up
> > to roughly 100 copies. Even if you are printing B&W only I think 
> you may
> > want to go with the higher-priced color book process since it is 
> printed on
> > a better paper with a higher resolution printer.  
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > The pricing boggles my mind it is so low. To buy just one book 
the 
> charge
> > for the B&W process is $4.53 + $0.02/page. For the recommended 
> higher
> > quality printer that also prints color the price is $4.53 + 
> $0.15/page. The
> > 100 page color book I saw was $20. Lulu.com will also sell the 
> books for
> > you, at whatever price you want to set, and send you the profits. 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > I do not work for lulul.com in any way, but I think self-
> publishing, at
> > these prices, is pretty exciting.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > http://www.lulu.com/about/whatislulu.php
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > The book I bought to check out the quality was about Rangefinder
> > photography.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > http://www.lulu.com/content/110604
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > There is one problem. From my limited experience, the printing 
> industry does
> > not know much about color management. Lulu.com is no different. 
> Read their
> > online forums for limited color management info.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Steve Bye
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >   _____  
> > 
> > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf 
Of 
> Mark Hahn
> > Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 8:57 AM
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Digital BW] b&w micro publishing
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > anyone use a service for micro publishing b&w photography in 
small 

> > bound editions?  I've seen nice and cheap color output, but no 
> samples 
> > of b&w.  Advice/recommendations appreciated!
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

At those prices, if you were going to make several different books 
(or use them often) it might be worth getting a CMYK profile made for 
their printer. Then you convert all you images to that profile, and 
they send the job through with their normal no color management 
workflow. The target might make an interesting liner page before 
getting to the index (etc.) or maybe all the way at the end of the 
book. Using a profile this way should allow you to use only the black 
ink, so as long as the resolution of the printer was high enough, you 
should get good output.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "fjohn1963" 
<john@f...> wrote:
>

Hello, I've been and am still under the impression that Lulu (and 
Café Press for that matter) do not have an option to use that nice, 
slightly glossy and heavier paper that one normally sees used in a 
book or high-end periodical primarily dedicated to photography (or 
other art reproduction). I've looked at Lulu's Help again and it 
appears that there are still no options for this kind of printing. 
(Not that they said there would be.) I'm not suggesting that it 
makes them totally unusable for ANY kind of photography/art oriented 
book, just that it seems they would be less than optimal, which I 
can understand considering the per unit prices. 

A while back I bought a Lulu book called "Streets of New York", by a 
(non) photographer named "Nitsa". Though I've always admired Nitsa's 
work (and philosophy) I must admit I bought the book primarily to 
check out the quality of the printed photos. Unfortunately, I was 
kind of disappointed. The photos have that low-DPI look, like 
printing a photo using my HP LaserJet 4L. 

This is not to suggest that books from Lulu are low quality. For 
what they cost, they are indeed very nice books. If I were planning 
to self-publish a novel or my not-so-steamy biography, I'd seriously 
consider Lulu without any concerns about my book being poorly 
manufactured. But we're not talking about novels or biographies or 
any other book whose pages are meant to be read, we're talking about 
visual art.  

Can someone please convince me that I'm wrong about this? Is there a 
Lulu option that provides for a better class of paper? Maybe 
something closer to MyPublisher.com's output, or something like 
Aperture or Blind Spot magazine? Am I just not interpreting their 
options correctly? 

Thank you for any insight you might provide. 

John F.

BTW - Here's a link to the books by "Nitsa" - 
http://www.nonphotography.com/books.html

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "esharamaki" 
<esharamaki@y...> wrote:
> on par or better with MyPublisher - the color and B&W images looked 
> good, the paper was nice.  You can go to 
> http://www.colorcentriccorp.com for more information. They are one 
of 
> the two printers that lulu uses.  It's kind of hard to figure out 
who 
> does what with lulu and I agree that there isn't much info in for 
> forums.This is what I was sent from colorcentric:
> 
> "I've attached an ICC profile for the Xerox iGen3, which if you are 
an
> advanced user, may (and I stress may) help visually on screen if 
your
> monitor is calibrated.  Our standard position is that having color
> management turned off is the best route to take, as the system does 
a
> pretty good job of rendering images.  But, if you prefer to "tweak" 
> your photos, you can try the profile.  
> The caveat is that the profile does not guarantee perfection, so we 
> don't "guarantee" WYSIWYG from Photoshop, even with this profile 
> being used."
> 

If they are using the EFI Fiery RIP to drive that printer, 
colormanagement should be extremely easy! Unless of course the 
printer drifts alot, and even then it should be within a tolerable 
amount of drift. It is digital after all.

I have limited experience with Lulu.  First of all, I used Open Office
to format my 9x7 book - no professional layout.  Converted to PDF and
uploaded via FTP - 2 hours to upload...  The two "photobooks" I've
ordered from them are fun.  One way mine and it was bad probably due
to my own editing skills.  The other was okay.  The nice glossy paper
cover it just that.  The paper inside is a bright white non-coated,
non-glossy paper.  Here's the spec from the color album I'm waiting for:

"104 pages, 9.0" x 7.0", perfect binding, 80# white interior paper,
full-color interior ink, 100# white exterior paper, full-color exterior"

Cost with shipping is $27.  If I were going to make a "serious" photo
album, I would print out at home and have it professionally bound.  I
wouldn't use Lulu.  I'd look up bookbinders in your area.  They can
give you good ideas on layout and binding options.  There's an article
about making your own book in this month's Photo Techniques magazine.
 You could browse at local bookstore...

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "fjohn1963"
<john@f...> wrote:

>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "fjohn1963" 
> <john@f...> wrote:
> >
> 
> Hello, I've been and am still under the impression that Lulu (and 
> Café Press for that matter) do not have an option to use that nice, 
> slightly glossy and heavier paper that one normally sees used in a 
> book or high-end periodical primarily dedicated to photography (or 
> other art reproduction). I've looked at Lulu's Help again and it 
> appears that there are still no options for this kind of printing. 
> (Not that they said there would be.) I'm not suggesting that it 
> makes them totally unusable for ANY kind of photography/art oriented 
> book, just that it seems they would be less than optimal, which I 
> can understand considering the per unit prices. 
> 
> A while back I bought a Lulu book called "Streets of New York", by a 
> (non) photographer named "Nitsa". Though I've always admired Nitsa's 
> work (and philosophy) I must admit I bought the book primarily to 
> check out the quality of the printed photos. Unfortunately, I was 
> kind of disappointed. The photos have that low-DPI look, like 
> printing a photo using my HP LaserJet 4L. 
> 
> This is not to suggest that books from Lulu are low quality. For 
> what they cost, they are indeed very nice books. If I were planning 
> to self-publish a novel or my not-so-steamy biography, I'd seriously 
> consider Lulu without any concerns about my book being poorly 
> manufactured. But we're not talking about novels or biographies or 
> any other book whose pages are meant to be read, we're talking about 
> visual art.  
> 
> Can someone please convince me that I'm wrong about this? Is there a 
> Lulu option that provides for a better class of paper? Maybe 
> something closer to MyPublisher.com's output, or something like 
> Aperture or Blind Spot magazine? Am I just not interpreting their 
> options correctly? 
> 
> Thank you for any insight you might provide. 
> 
> John F.
> 
> BTW - Here's a link to the books by "Nitsa" - 
> http://www.nonphotography.com/books.html
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Bye" 
<steve_bye@c...> wrote:
>
> Check out lulu.com and MyPublisher. I've only seen output from 
lulu.com and
> it looked very good. It was mixed color and B&W images. The color was 
pretty
> good. The tonality of B&W (brightness and contrast) looked good, but 
I never
> saw the originals to judge.

I have recently used SharedInk.com and liked the quality, paper 
choices, and binding choices. It is definitely not cheap however.  The 
offer a "Photographer's Only" program that promises a higher level of 
service as well as greater array of binding, formats, paper choices.  I 
published a book of b&w photography and while there is a very slight 
color cast (cyan) to the photos (I opted to use color versus black only)
in certain light, I'm still very happy with the quality.  53pages 
(front & back printing), linen cover with cover photo, full bleed and 
delux end paper = $80/book.  My mother cried when I gave it to her so 
that was worth it. 

You can get a free trial of the photographer only program (it is 
otherwise a one-time fee of $249) and you can publish a book that way 
to see if it is worth it to you.  

The use a HP Indigo printer. 

www.sharedink.com

I'm not affiliated with them in any way.  

Jerry

> If I were going to make a "serious" photo
> album, I would print out at home and have it professionally bound.  I
> wouldn't use Lulu.  I'd look up bookbinders in your area.  They can
> give you good ideas on layout and binding options.  

This brings up another question:

What is the best paper for use in a custom-bound book? The paper will
not be framed behind glass, and won't be stored in archival sleeves,
so what are the best options for inkjets? The paper can't be too
thick, since you want the pages to turn nicely, and ideally you want
to have the option of placing photos on opposing pages, so
double-sided is useful. And are there any papers you can get away with
where you don't need to use interleaving tissue?

-I have recently used SharedInk.com and liked the quality, paper 
-choices, and binding choices. It is definitely not cheap however.  The 
-offer a "Photographer's Only" program that promises a higher level of 
-service as well as greater array of binding, formats, paper choices. 


I went to SharedInk.com and saw no mention of a "Photographers Only"
program. Am I missing something?

Gary

www.pbase.com/garyallenbrown

sorry, I should have posted the link as they don't seem to really be pushing this program 
via the main page:

http://www.sharedink.com/products/fpo/default.aspx


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Brown" <baffin@c...> 
wrote:

>
> 
> -I have recently used SharedInk.com and liked the quality, paper 
> -choices, and binding choices. It is definitely not cheap however.  The 
> -offer a "Photographer's Only" program that promises a higher level of 
> -service as well as greater array of binding, formats, paper choices. 
> 
> 
> I went to SharedInk.com and saw no mention of a "Photographers Only"
> program. Am I missing something?
> 
> Gary
> 
> www.pbase.com/garyallenbrown
>

They look exactly like the Apple iPhoto books, sizes, colors, costs,  
etc. There seems to be no pricing on their web site for custom sizes,  
papers, and covers, or did I just miss it? The having to join for  
$129 seems extreme! As far as being able to create the book in  
Photoshop, there is a workaround to do that for the iPhoto books  
also, so you do not have to use their canned layouts.
Mark

On Jan 8, 2006, at 6:05 PM, Jerry Blanton wrote:

> sorry, I should have posted the link as they don't seem to really  
> be pushing this program
> via the main page:
>
> http://www.sharedink.com/products/fpo/default.aspx
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Brown"  
> <baffin@c...>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > -I have recently used SharedInk.com and liked the quality, paper
> > -choices, and binding choices. It is definitely not cheap  
> however.  The
> > -offer a "Photographer's Only" program that promises a higher  
> level of
> > -service as well as greater array of binding, formats, paper  
> choices.
> >
> >
> > I went to SharedInk.com and saw no mention of a "Photographers Only"
> > program. Am I missing something?
> >
> > Gary
> >
> > www.pbase.com/garyallenbrown
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Again, my suggestion would be to talk with a bookbinder.  I'm sure
they could be very helpful in the area of paper selection and layout.
  They will know how a book "operates" and how thicker/thinner paper
will behave in certain bindings.  I'm still going to try and bind my
own.  I've got binder board and bookcloth and a pretty good book on
how to do it, but as it will be my first attempt, I'm expecting
something less than stellar.

I'm using a Projet (Adorama), double-sided semi-gloss paper from a
roll (http://www.adorama.com/IPRDS825S.html.)  Supposedly good for
magazine proofs.  I think it will be okay.  I'm not trying for
anything outstanding yet.  

I'm using Serif SE (free layout program from
http://www.freeserifsoftware.com/) to do the layout.  I cut the paper
8"(h) x 14"(l) and have it pressing under a couple of tele books to
flatten out.  After double-sided printing I'll fold each sheet in half
to make 4 pages.  There will be several of these sheets nested
together to form a signature.  This is what will get bound to my cover.  

Blah blah blah.  Long winded.  I agree that the paper needs to bend a
little to function properly.



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dahaal"
<dahaal@y...> wrote:

>
> > If I were going to make a "serious" photo
> > album, I would print out at home and have it professionally bound.  I
> > wouldn't use Lulu.  I'd look up bookbinders in your area.  They can
> > give you good ideas on layout and binding options.  
> 
> This brings up another question:
> 
> What is the best paper for use in a custom-bound book? The paper will
> not be framed behind glass, and won't be stored in archival sleeves,
> so what are the best options for inkjets? The paper can't be too
> thick, since you want the pages to turn nicely, and ideally you want
> to have the option of placing photos on opposing pages, so
> double-sided is useful. And are there any papers you can get away with
> where you don't need to use interleaving tissue?
>

There were a couple of good links here:
http://www.philobiblon.com/tutorials.htm

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg"
<dfaprinting@y...> wrote:
>
> There were a couple of good links here:
> http://www.philobiblon.com/tutorials.htm
>

Lots of good links on bookbinding, though I didn't see any
specifically aimed at inkjet bookbinding.

To add an answer to my own question: While flipping through Harald
Johnson's book in the bookstore, I noticed he has some suggestions for
making books (in addition to the POD companies like mypublisher and
Apple), including some companies/kits that are designed for digital
prints.

I hope more information becomes available on this, since making
high-quality books from high-quality digital prints with reasonably
archival paper would be a great thing.

To answer my own question again, I found a thread from October that
starts here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/message/68528

that has some good info on papers and spraying for use in books.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dahaal" 
<dahaal@y...> wrote:
>
> To answer my own question again, I found a thread from October that
> starts here:
> 
> 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/message/685
28
> 
> that has some good info on papers and spraying for use in books.
>

One thing in one of those links it showed which way the grain of the 
paper was supposed to go to work well. From looking around, there are 
not many papers that really would work in a real bound book. Almost 
every inkjet paper is too thick. My opinion is that around 6 mill is 
the thickest you would really want to go, else the pages will be 
difficult to turn, and a 50 page book would be very thick. Mitsubishi 
has a double sided semigloss paper that is about 6mil, but I've been 
told it does not work well with pigment inks. That said, I'm still 
looking.

How about Premier Premium Matte? 110 gram weight and 5.5 mil 
thickness. And, coated BOTH sides, and inexpensive ro boot.

http://www.photo-warehouse.com/premier.html

Scroll down to near the end of page.

Scott


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg" 
<dfaprinting@y...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dahaal" 
> <dahaal@y...> wrote:
> >
> > To answer my own question again, I found a thread from October 
that
> > starts here:
> > 
> > 
> 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/message/685
> 28
> > 
> > that has some good info on papers and spraying for use in books.
> >
> 
> One thing in one of those links it showed which way the grain of 
the 
> paper was supposed to go to work well. From looking around, there 
are 
> not many papers that really would work in a real bound book. Almost 
> every inkjet paper is too thick. My opinion is that around 6 mill 
is 
> the thickest you would really want to go, else the pages will be 
> difficult to turn, and a 50 page book would be very thick. 
Mitsubishi 
> has a double sided semigloss paper that is about 6mil, but I've 
been 

> told it does not work well with pigment inks. That said, I'm still 
> looking.
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming" 
<scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:
>
> How about Premier Premium Matte? 110 gram weight and 5.5 mil 
> thickness. And, coated BOTH sides, and inexpensive ro boot.
> 
> http://www.photo-warehouse.com/premier.html
> 
> Scroll down to near the end of page.
> 
> Scott
> 

Is it safe to assume Premier and PremierArt are the same company?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg" <dfaprinting@y...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dahaal" 
> <dahaal@y...> wrote:
> >
> > To answer my own question again, I found a thread from October that
> > starts here:
> > 
> > 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/message/685
> 28
> > 
> > that has some good info on papers and spraying for use in books.
> >
> 
> One thing in one of those links it showed which way the grain of the 
> paper was supposed to go to work well. From looking around, there are 
> not many papers that really would work in a real bound book. Almost 
> every inkjet paper is too thick. My opinion is that around 6 mill is 
> the thickest you would really want to go, else the pages will be 
> difficult to turn, and a 50 page book would be very thick. Mitsubishi 
> has a double sided semigloss paper that is about 6mil, but I've been 
> told it does not work well with pigment inks. That said, I'm still 
> looking.
>

I think for a traditional book binding (sewn signatures or some kind of adhesive binding) 
using a paper with vertical grain would be important. The pages will be more flexible, and 
turn nicely. 

Another option would be to use a flex-hinge binding (some kits use this type), in which 
case you can get away with a thicker, less flexible paper. The previous thread I mentioned 
above has some references to some flex-hinge-type bindings using Innova and 
Hahnemuehle papers. Also, there's a reference to a Moab kit, but I found nothing about it 
on the Moab web site.

I just finished printing a collection of images using Innova's Opus Fine Art
Presentation album. If I'm not mistaken, this is their BookArt paper, and
the paper noted in the link below. I'm pleased with the results. It's
double-sided, scuff resistant and seemed to be a nice weight for the
application. I need to compare the same image to Innova's standard Smooth
Cotton, but the images looked good.

Terry.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On 
> Behalf Of Greg
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dahaal" 
> <dahaal@y...> wrote:
> >
> > To answer my own question again, I found a thread from October that 
> > starts here:
> > 
> > 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/message/685
> 28
> > 
> > that has some good info on papers and spraying for use in books.
> >
> 
> One thing in one of those links it showed which way the grain 
> of the paper was supposed to go to work well. From looking 
> around, there are not many papers that really would work in a 
> real bound book. Almost every inkjet paper is too thick. My 
> opinion is that around 6 mill is the thickest you would 
> really want to go, else the pages will be difficult to turn, 
> and a 50 page book would be very thick. Mitsubishi has a 
> double sided semigloss paper that is about 6mil, but I've 
> been told it does not work well with pigment inks. That said, 
> I'm still looking.

I forgot to mention that the Innova paper comes in both long or short grain.


You can get more info at http://www.shadesofpaper.com/innova.htm or by
dropping Jim Doyle a note. He's great to work with.

Terry.

> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On 
> Behalf Of Terry Ritz

> 
> I just finished printing a collection of images using 
> Innova's Opus Fine Art Presentation album. If I'm not 
> mistaken, this is their BookArt paper, and the paper noted in 
> the link below. I'm pleased with the results. It's 
> double-sided, scuff resistant and seemed to be a nice weight 
> for the application. I need to compare the same image to 
> Innova's standard Smooth Cotton, but the images looked good.
> 
> Terry.

I'm sending some sheets of paper off to a couple of dealers to see if 
they can source it. It's a semigloss paper that looks very much like 
a typical offset stock, but it does have OBA. The closest description 
comes from the Adorama double sided semigloss, but I've been told 
that paper doesn't work very well with pigment inks, something about 
the clay coating.

For a matte paper, something like a double sided Hahnemuhle Artproof 
would be kind of nice, or maybe a really thin Innova Photo Fiba Print.

Check out the premium kit here at red rock paper

http://www.redrivercatalog.com/acc/bookbinding.htm#

The flex hinges are available by themselves.  They seem pretty
expensive to me.  I thought about cutting my inkjet paper into 1"
strips and using some sort of archival tape to make a flexible hinge.
Tape to the print and the use hole punch to make holes in the 1" strip
for post bound album.

Kolo also has post albums that you can print directly to paper instead
of album refills.

http://www.kolo.com/



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dahaal"
<dahaal@y...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg"
<dfaprinting@y...> wrote:
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dahaal" 
> > <dahaal@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > To answer my own question again, I found a thread from October that
> > > starts here:
> > > 
> > > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/message/685
> > 28
> > > 
> > > that has some good info on papers and spraying for use in books.
> > >
> > 
> > One thing in one of those links it showed which way the grain of the 
> > paper was supposed to go to work well. From looking around, there are 
> > not many papers that really would work in a real bound book. Almost 
> > every inkjet paper is too thick. My opinion is that around 6 mill is 
> > the thickest you would really want to go, else the pages will be 
> > difficult to turn, and a 50 page book would be very thick. Mitsubishi 
> > has a double sided semigloss paper that is about 6mil, but I've been 
> > told it does not work well with pigment inks. That said, I'm still 
> > looking.
> >
> 
> I think for a traditional book binding (sewn signatures or some kind
of adhesive binding) 
> using a paper with vertical grain would be important. The pages will
be more flexible, and 
> turn nicely. 
> 
> Another option would be to use a flex-hinge binding (some kits use
this type), in which 
> case you can get away with a thicker, less flexible paper. The
previous thread I mentioned 
> above has some references to some flex-hinge-type bindings using
Innova and 
> Hahnemuehle papers. Also, there's a reference to a Moab kit, but I
found nothing about it 
> on the Moab web site.
>

Yes, I think it is. Premier Art and Premier Imaging one and rhe same 
company.

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dahaal" 
<dahaal@y...> wrote:
>
> --- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming" 

> <scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:
> >
> > How about Premier Premium Matte? 110 gram weight and 5.5 mil 
> > thickness. And, coated BOTH sides, and inexpensive ro boot.
> > 
> > http://www.photo-warehouse.com/premier.html
> > 
> > Scroll down to near the end of page.
> > 
> > Scott
> > 
> 
> Is it safe to assume Premier and PremierArt are the same company?
>

> Also, there's a reference to a Moab kit, but I found nothing about it 
> on the Moab web site.

The info on the Moab book apparently is only in their PDF catalog,
which you can access from their web site:

http://resources.moabpaper.com/printable%20catalog/catalog_7-10-2005.pdf

The book is called Chinle digital book v2, is bound in black leather,
uses Kayenta, Entrada, or Kokopelli papers from Moab (cut to the
proper dimensions, and prescored for the book), and comes in two
sizes: 8"x8" & 12"x12".

All in all it looks quite beautiful, but is quite pricey. A 20-page
8"x8" book on Kayenta would run around $71 for album and paper. On the
other end of the scale, a 40-page 12"x12" book on Kokopelli would run
about $171 altogether (and the other configurations of size and paper
are between these two prices).

scott_now_coming writes:
 > How about Premier Premium Matte? 110 gram weight and 5.5 mil 
 > thickness. And, coated BOTH sides, and inexpensive ro boot.
 > 
 > http://www.photo-warehouse.com/premier.html
 > 
 > Scroll down to near the end of page.
 > 

Has anyone succeeded at buying this paper.  Depending how I get there
(via links from the above site or googling-around), I either get that
it's temporarily out of stock (and had been for quite a while) or that
there's a $35 minimum (and I don't need that much to try it out).

Thanks,

g.

I ordered a roll about 1 1/2 weeks ago and am still waiting.

Bill Wandel 

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of George
Hartzell
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 2:37 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Best paper for custom-bound photo books

scott_now_coming writes:
 > How about Premier Premium Matte? 110 gram weight and 5.5 mil  >
thickness. And, coated BOTH sides, and inexpensive ro boot.
 >
 > http://www.photo-warehouse.com/premier.html
 >
 > Scroll down to near the end of page.
 > 

Has anyone succeeded at buying this paper.  Depending how I get there (via
links from the above site or googling-around), I either get that it's
temporarily out of stock (and had been for quite a while) or that there's a
$35 minimum (and I don't need that much to try it out).

Thanks,

g.


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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "esharamaki" 
<esharamaki@...> wrote:
> 
 There's an article
> about making your own book in this month's Photo Techniques magazine.
>  You could browse at local bookstore...


I have searched Photo Techniques website and could not find the name of 
the software and the article you were referring to.  This reference is 
more than a year old, but I am hoping you may remember the name of the 
software.  Nancy

I did find the link:  http://www.siphotographer.com/

The program is expensive, probably useful for a coffee table type of 
photography book.  Nancy


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Nancy Wilson" 
<nancyewilson@...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m, "esharamaki" 
> <esharamaki@> wrote:
> > 
>  There's an article
> > about making your own book in this month's Photo Techniques 
magazine.
> >  You could browse at local bookstore...
> 
> 
> I have searched Photo Techniques website and could not find the 
name of 
> the software and the article you were referring to.  This reference 
is 
> more than a year old, but I am hoping you may remember the name of 
the 
> software.  Nancy
>

Hi Nancy;

If you are PC based, QImage is fairly good for laying out simple 
things- several pix per page, borders, individual captions, etc.

Steven Karafyllakis


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Nancy Wilson" 
<nancyewilson@...> wrote:
>
> I did find the link:  http://www.siphotographer.com/
> 
> The program is expensive, probably useful for a coffee table type 
of 
> photography book.  Nancy
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Nancy Wilson" 
> <nancyewilson@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "esharamaki" 
> > <esharamaki@> wrote:
> > > 
> >  There's an article
> > > about making your own book in this month's Photo Techniques 
> magazine.
> > >  You could browse at local bookstore...
> > 
> > 
> > I have searched Photo Techniques website and could not find the 
> name of 
> > the software and the article you were referring to.  This 
reference 
> is 
> > more than a year old, but I am hoping you may remember the name 
of 

> the 
> > software.  Nancy
> >
>

Forgive me if this comes across as highjacking the thread, but I just 
want to pass on some info concerning self publishing books. I have no 
first hand knowledge of it, other than I have looked into it abit 
slightly. I did come across a few companies that do this and usually 
we are talking a limited run. There are firms that will do one to how 
ever you my want. One such online company that sounds interesting is 
Blurb. I have found a couple of articals about people that have used 
them and were satisfied. One of the articals I found had to do with 
softproofing before sending it off to be printed:
http://www.bonsai-photography.com/blurb-color-management.pdf
I found the artical very good and something to think about, like 
knowing what the paper is like.
I came across the artical from OutbackPhoto.com who has started 
making books of their "portfolios". Again, I found the info 
interesting as it pertains to people actally using Blurb. It explains 
their experience working with the authoring softwear(free) and the 
results they achieved. 
http://www.outbackphoto.com/CONTENT_2007_01/section_output_printing/20
070718_BlurbExperience/index.html
I'm not in anyway associated with blurb or outback but thought I 
would pass on the info. I was intrigued when I first heard about 
Blurd about a year ago as I thought that it would be interesting to 
see if it would be feasable to just a few books of my own work. It 
sounds interesting and it doesn't hurt to look at the info.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Nancy Wilson" 
<nancyewilson@...> wrote:
>
> I did find the link:  http://www.siphotographer.com/
> 
> The program is expensive, probably useful for a coffee table type 
of 
> photography book.  Nancy
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Nancy Wilson" 
> <nancyewilson@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "esharamaki" 
> > <esharamaki@> wrote:
> > > 
> >  There's an article
> > > about making your own book in this month's Photo Techniques 
> magazine.
> > >  You could browse at local bookstore...
> > 
> > 
> > I have searched Photo Techniques website and could not find the 
> name of 
> > the software and the article you were referring to.  This 
reference 
> is 
> > more than a year old, but I am hoping you may remember the name 
of 

> the 
> > software.  Nancy
> >
>

Thank you, Keith.  I went to both sites you referenced.  It sounds like 
Blurb may be the way to go:  Archival paper and ready formats to work 
witwith.  It costs about the same as Lulu, and the quality may be a 
little better, especially if copy is prepared the way the first article 
recommends.  Nancy

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Keith R." 
<kjrslr@...> wrote:
>
> Forgive me if this comes across as highjacking the thread, but I just 
> want to pass on some info concerning self publishing books. 

 One of the articals I found had to do with 

> softproofing before sending it off to be printed:
> http://www.bonsai-photography.com/blurb-color-management.pdf
> I found the artical very good and something to think about, like 
> knowing what the paper is like. .....................

> I came across the artical from OutbackPhoto.com who has started 
> making books of their "portfolios". Again, I found the info 
> interesting as it pertains to people actally using Blurb. 
> http://www.outbackphoto.com/CONTENT_2007_01/section_output_printing/20
> 070718_BlurbExperience/index.html

I have used both Blurb and Lulu, and the quality of the books from Blurb is better. The main problem I have had with both, is the quality of their B&W printing is not very good. Its practically the equivalent of going back to printing with a four color inkjet printer and having no control.

Gary

www.pbase.com/garyallenbrown

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Nancy Wilson 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 1:03 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: b&w micro publishing


  Thank you, Keith. I went to both sites you referenced. It sounds like 
  Blurb may be the way to go: Archival paper and ready formats to work 
  witwith. It costs about the same as Lulu, and the quality may be a 
  little better, especially if copy is prepared the way the first article 
  recommends. Nancy

  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Keith R." 
  <kjrslr@...> wrote:
  >
  > Forgive me if this comes across as highjacking the thread, but I just 
  > want to pass on some info concerning self publishing books. 

  One of the articals I found had to do with 
  > softproofing before sending it off to be printed:
  > http://www.bonsai-photography.com/blurb-color-management.pdf
  > I found the artical very good and something to think about, like 
  > knowing what the paper is like. .....................

  > I came across the artical from OutbackPhoto.com who has started 
  > making books of their "portfolios". Again, I found the info 
  > interesting as it pertains to people actally using Blurb. 
  > http://www.outbackphoto.com/CONTENT_2007_01/section_output_printing/20
  > 070718_BlurbExperience/index.html



   

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

That was also one of my concerns. So when I came across the artical 
dealing with softproofing for Blurb, I knew that I could contine to 
think about doing a book. The info in the artical now gives you some 
control in that you have a known ICC profile to soft proof with, and 
that the printing is CMYK(yes that is four color ink printing). With 
those two bits of information and Photoshops softproofing you can 
have a lot of control as opposed to none at all. 


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Brown" 
<baffin@...> wrote:
>
> I have used both Blurb and Lulu, and the quality of the books from 
Blurb is better. The main problem I have had with both, is the 
quality of their B&W printing is not very good. Its practically the 
equivalent of going back to printing with a four color inkjet printer 
and having no control.

> 
> Gary
> 
> www.pbase.com/garyallenbrown

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Keith R." 


One of the problems with these printers is that they always seem to
cheap out on the control software/hardware. Then they cheap out on the
color management aspects. If I remember corectly Lulu uses a Xerox
iGen3 printer, but they make no mention (last time I checked about a
year ago) of the software that drives the printer. I know that if they
had chosen the EFI RIP (and use it the way it is designed to be used),
that colormanagement would be pretty simple and integrated, and that
they could get a K only profiled workflow (heavy GCR to linear GCR)
along with a stocastic dot pattern to give near "photographic" output.
Yes that may be stretching things a bit because the dot size is still
pretty big.

If you can find a printer that does use a real CMYK workflow, then you
might get good results by changing your image into the CMYK space that
they use, and making sure that it is all in the K channel (assuming
"neutral" output is desired).

I kind of gave up on the idea of building up a service like this as I
will likely never have the money needed for the equipment, and the
market is pretty limited, so it would be difficult to pay off a loan.
The affordable CMYK laser printers don't really have the dot sizes and
patterns needed to offer this type of service, and most don't have any
RIPs to help make the workflow easy.

If they will do short runs on the Heidelberg press, you might want to
check pricing from these guys:
http://www.imagers.com/digiprint/pressGEN.html
Also check for other places that use the Heidelberg press to get away
from the electrostatic/electrophotographic process (photocopiers and
laser printers). However in their FAQ it says they have pleasing color
only output, which means they do not really pay much attention to the
color management aspects, and they insist on having  pages that
contain rich black (CMY and K). Sad because if you go to Heidelberg's
site they make a big deal about have well their digital printers work
with colormanagement.

Now these guys look like they may have a colormanaged workflow as they
say they offer proofs of the press color space:
http://www.dgtal.com/services_digital_printing_heidelberg.html and
there is no mention of being only "pleasing color"*.
-------------
"Digital Proofing
Prior to the press run, we generate proofs on a Rainbow Digital
Proofer which is calibrated to the Heidelberg printing press."
-------------
I'm sure that means they are not cheap.


* Pleasing color is the term used to say that things are not highly
color controlled like they can be with modern colormanagement and
software control.

Those places were the first 2 on a google search for "Heidelberg
digital printer". I've NEVER had any work done by them, so I do not
know if the quality is really what is desired. If you are truly
commited to producing a book, it might be worth contacting them to see
if they would tag one of your images into some trim space or on the
tail end of a job to get a sample.

<kjrslr@...> wrote:

>
> That was also one of my concerns. So when I came across the artical 
> dealing with softproofing for Blurb, I knew that I could contine to 
> think about doing a book. The info in the artical now gives you some 
> control in that you have a known ICC profile to soft proof with, and 
> that the printing is CMYK(yes that is four color ink printing). With 
> those two bits of information and Photoshops softproofing you can 
> have a lot of control as opposed to none at all. 
> 
>