Digital BW, The Print

Hello all,

I recently posted this message on the digital fineart list, thinking
that because I'm trying to duplicate paintings, that is where I
should've posted it, but was referred here by one of the members,
because I'm primarily dealing with monochromatic artwork.  So if
anyone here can help me, I'd greatly appreciate it.

I regularly produce unlimited small prints of my black and white
paintings. I've been using the PT Selenium Inkset on Hahnemuhle
Photo Rag on an Epson 1280. Overall, the results have been quite
good, as far as quality goes, but not as far as tone goes.

The problem I have is that while my paintings are black &
white, they aren't quite monochromatic. The black has a pretty
strong blue undertone, and the white is pretty warm, and I was using
the above mentioned ink and paper in order to more or less "shoot
for the middle" tonewise. But the results weren't quite what I
wanted. So I had considered switching to the PT Cool Neutral set to
emulate the black tone and print on warm paper to emulate the white,
but have been hesitant to get stuck with a bunch of ink that might be
too cool or not cool enough & would limit my hobby of printing B&W
photos to cool prints. And, the truth is that the cost of the PT inks
can be rather prohibitive on my budget.

So, I have been considering switching to one of the MIS inksets. In
particular I wanted an inkset that would give me the ability to
control just how warm or cool it is and also be made up of 4 shades
of gray to provide completely dot free gradations and tones.
But from what I read, the UT2 inkset essentially only has three
shades. So I was thinking of picking up some MIS refillable
cartridges for the 1280 and using all of the inks in the UT7 inkset
except for the Sepia ink, and controlling all of it with custom
profiles that I would have to create with QTR. This would essentially
give me a single black, one light black, two grays (warm & cool), and
two light grays (warm & cool), and quite the headache as far as
getting it all working right.

I think this could work, but before I dive in and drive myself crazy
with all the profiling and attempting to match the color in my
paintings, I have a few concerns that I'm wondering if anyone
could help me with or comment on:

first: the archival quality of the inkset as compared to Conetech's

second: If anyone has used the inkset, considering the UT7 inkset has
a neutral black and neutral light black, what range in the inkset is
actually toned?

third: Has anyone used QTR to control this inkset? And, if so, is it
simply a matter of creating say, a cool curve and warm curve that
can be blended to achieve the desired tone, or would there be more
to it?

fourth: If anyone has used both the PT Cool Neutral inkset and the UT7
inkset, are the cool tones comparable or in other words could I
match the tone of the Cool Neutral inks with the UT7 set? This is
one of the more important issues as I might be having some
limited editions printed for me with the Cool Neutral inkset, and
would like to be able to match the tone with my smaller prints.

last: If the Cool Neutral inkset wouldn't work for me tonewise and I
decided to go with a color process for my limited edition prints, is
it possible to get truly monochromatic toned prints from most
professional printers or would I have to really search around for one.

Any help, thoughts, comments, etc. would be very much appreciated.
And, if anyone would like to make any suggestions as to alternative
solutions, please let me know.

Thanks,

Eric

> ... UT2 inkset essentially only has three shades.

I use MIS UT-FS-Y (like the lightest Piezo ink) in the Y position instead of
sepia toner.  It's easy to modify the standard curves (in whatever driver or
rip you're using) to handle the FS-Y.  I have some sample IJC curves that
are available just to show the relative amounts I use.  (Shame all these
systems don't use standardized curves.)

> 
> first: the archival quality of the inkset as compared to Conetech's

Essentially equal.  They are both pure pigs.  I'm not sure if Cone has
switched to the R800 blue yet, but that was a significant upgrade of the MIS
UT line.

> what range in the inkset is actually toned?

No cold ink I've tried can neutralize the matte black ink and still give you
a decent dmax. (Eboni is about like Museum black.)  As such, in a "neutral"
print the cool toner runs out of steam in the deep shadows.

With glossy paper UT2 and UT7 blacks are generated by the dark cool and warm
gray inks.  As such, tone control is possible all the way down.
Additionally, there is a PKN (Neutral-cool Photo Black) that can be used.

> 
> ... could I match the tone of the Cool Neutral inks with the UT7 set?

UT7 can go cooler than the Piezo cool inks (further negative on the Lab b
axis), but I don't know how the Lab a axis compares.

Hope this helps.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

That helps a lot.  Thank you thank you.  Just two more questions,

First: if I use the MIS UT-FS-Y, is it just so light that it can be
used regardless of the tone of the print, and not effect the
tonality? 

Second: Since I'd be buying the inks bulk, I could either use the
modified UT2 or the UT7 set minus the Sepia, I'm just wondering
if you would recommend one over the other.

Oh, and by the way, I'm using QTR in case that would have any
bearing on your recommendation.

Thanks again,

Eric
www.ericashworth.net



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> 
wrote:

> I use MIS UT-FS-Y (like the lightest Piezo ink) in the Y position
instead of
> sepia toner.  It's easy to modify the standard curves (in whatever
driver or
> rip you're using) to handle the FS-Y.  I have some sample IJC
curves that
> are available just to show the relative amounts I use.  (Shame all
these
> systems don't use standardized curves.)

Eric,


 
> ... if I use the MIS UT-FS-Y, is it just so light that it can be
> used regardless of the tone of the print, and not effect the
> tonality?

Yes.  It's a compromise that has almost no impact on tone.  As Roy recently
noted: "The paper tone naturally has a big effect at the light end."

 
>  Since I'd be buying the inks bulk, I could either use the
> modified UT2 or the UT7 set minus the Sepia, I'm just wondering
> if you would recommend one over the other.

Use the inkset that was made for the printer.  For the 1280, the UT2 is it.
Just substitute UT-FS-Y for the sepia in the Y position.  I'd guess the WTR
users already have curves for the UT2, and since the Sepia is not used for
non-sepia tones, its lack should not have any impact of the curve's
performance.  Ditto for my Photoshop curves for the UT2 and 1280.  

I'm going to put the Ut2 on the R200 to start.  I'll move from that base to
my next idea.  Who knows where I'll end up.

How one controls the inkset probably won't matter -- The more ways the
better.  

Good luck.

Paul

> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@v...>
> wrote:
> 
> > I use MIS UT-FS-Y (like the lightest Piezo ink) in the Y position
> instead of
> > sepia toner.  It's easy to modify the standard curves (in whatever
> driver or
> > rip you're using) to handle the FS-Y.  I have some sample IJC
> curves that
> > are available just to show the relative amounts I use.  (Shame all
> these
> > systems don't use standardized curves.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Excellent.  I'll have to let you know how it all turns out.  And by
the way, I'm quite curious about your new idea.  You'll have to let
us all in on it once you've got it hammered out.

Thanks again,

Eric
www.ericashworth.net



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> 
wrote:

> Use the inkset that was made for the printer.  For the 1280, the
UT2 is it.
> Just substitute UT-FS-Y for the sepia in the Y position.  I'd guess
the WTR
> users already have curves for the UT2, and since the Sepia is not
used for
> non-sepia tones, its lack should not have any impact of the curve's
> performance.  Ditto for my Photoshop curves for the UT2 and 1280.  
> 
> I'm going to put the Ut2 on the R200 to start.  I'll move from that
base to
> my next idea.  Who knows where I'll end up.
> 
> How one controls the inkset probably won't matter -- The more ways
the

> better.  
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> Paul

Eric - This may not be the way that you want to go, but if you end up with
another printer that could run with Imageprint, you'll find that the
versions of IP with Tintpicker allow you do do what is essentially split
toning.  You could give the darker parts of an image a cool tone, for
example, and the lighter parts a warmer tone, and adjust for where the split
takes place.  I use it with an Epson 4000, and often find that it's just
what I need to make b&w images that have the kind of subtle coloration that
I used to get by using different toning methods in the darkroom.

Stephen Petegorsky

Hi Stephen,

Thanks much for the tip.  However, right now I'm afraid my budget is a
little too limiting to consider picking up any more software or a new
printer. But, I'm hoping to be able to pick up an Epson 4800 or
possibly
even a 7800 at some point next year (crossing my fingers regarding
funding). Maybe at that point I might be able to do some
experimentation in that direction.

In the meantime, from some initial tests with the Piezotone Cool
Neutral inks on H Photo Rag, I think a simple cool ink / warm paper
combination will probably be sufficient.

Your post got me thinking though, and I'm curious if anyone knows if
it's possible to do split toning with the UT2 inks on a 1280,
possibly by creating custom curves in QTR with cool darks to warm
lights, or maybe by some other means?

Thanks again,

Eric
www.ericashworth.net



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Stephen
Petegorsky 
<petegorsky@e...> wrote:
> Eric - This may not be the way that you want to go, but if you end
up with
> another printer that could run with Imageprint, you'll find that the
> versions of IP with Tintpicker allow you do do what is essentially
split
> toning.  You could give the darker parts of an image a cool tone,
for
> example, and the lighter parts a warmer tone, and adjust for where
the split
> takes place.  I use it with an Epson 4000, and often find that it's
just
> what I need to make b&w images that have the kind of subtle
coloration that

> I used to get by using different toning methods in the darkroom.
> 
> Stephen Petegorsky

On Sun, Aug 07, 2005 at 06:38:01AM -0000, brigsby707 wrote:
>
> Your post got me thinking though, and I'm curious if anyone knows if
> it's possible to do split toning with the UT2 inks on a 1280,
> possibly by creating custom curves in QTR with cool darks to warm
> lights, or maybe by some other means?

Paul Roark gave me some tips on this a few weeks ago.  Here are some
of the headers from the message you should look for.  I don't know how
good the archive search is.  If you strike out, email me off-list and
I'll forward the entire thread over to you.

  Message-id: <0IKD0081ZBP5E4XB@...>
  Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 19:46:22 -0700

  Subject: [Digital BW] Split toning procedure (was  Newbie question -
  what is duotone?)

-- 
 Ben Rosengart                                          ben@...
       "Young people should be seen and not heard, because they're
        good-looking but not too bright.  We're pretty bright now,
        but we're ugly." -- Grace Slick on the '60s youth movement