Digital BW, The Print

mkravit wrote:
> 
> Recently it was noted that if we coiuld print grayscale images with
> RGB inks without color crossover and metamerism life would be grand.
> 
> Well I was wondering. Epson claims that their new lightfast inks will
> last for at least 25 years. They recently intriduced these inks for
> the 1280, 7000, 10000 etc. These inks have little or no metamerism as
> they are dyes. The 25 year life seems somewhat reasonable for certain
> circumstances and the color gamut is very nice.

Mike;

About 1 1/2 years ago when I started my exploration of trying to get
decent B&W prints out of my Epson 1200, I started plying around with the
Photoshop supplied Duotones. On some images I was able to get a nice
grayscale with little crossover, but this varied from image to image.
However the big turnoff was the amount of metamerism with the OEM <pre
lightfast> color inks. The prints would look great under tungsten light
and VERY green under daylight. In comparison the Piezo and MIS quad inks
have almost no metamerism.  

Are you saying that the newer Epson "lightfast" dye inks have less
metarmerism then the standard Epson inks that are in the OEM 1200, 1600
color cartridges?

-Jeff

Jeff Magidson wrote:

>
>
> mkravit wrote:
> >
> > Recently it was noted that if we coiuld print grayscale images with
> > RGB inks without color crossover and metamerism life would be grand.
> >
> > Well I was wondering. Epson claims that their new lightfast inks will
> > last for at least 25 years. They recently intriduced these inks for
> > the 1280, 7000, 10000 etc. These inks have little or no metamerism as
> > they are dyes. The 25 year life seems somewhat reasonable for certain
> > circumstances and the color gamut is very nice.
>
> Mike;
>
> About 1 1/2 years ago when I started my exploration of trying to get
> decent B&W prints out of my Epson 1200, I started plying around with the
> Photoshop supplied Duotones. On some images I was able to get a nice
> grayscale with little crossover, but this varied from image to image.
> However the big turnoff was the amount of metamerism with the OEM <pre
> lightfast> color inks. The prints would look great under tungsten light
> and VERY green under daylight. In comparison the Piezo and MIS quad inks
> have almost no metamerism.
>
> Are you saying that the newer Epson "lightfast" dye inks have less
> metarmerism then the standard Epson inks that are in the OEM 1200, 1600
> color cartridges?
>
> -Jeff

I have never heard of a metamerism problem with dye based inks...I thought it was strictly a pigment ink
problem.

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID photography, NYC







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., SKID Photography 
<skid@b...> wrote:
> I have never heard of a metamerism problem with dye based 
inks...I thought it was strictly a pigment ink
> problem.

Harvey, Mike,

I'll just throw in my two cents here. I seem to be the king of trying 
(read: fighting) to print B/W with color inks. In my neurotic search 
for long life prints and stability, I just switched back (again) to 
Generations4. It supposedly had "less" metamerism than other 
pigments. In the last day or so, I've had to admit to myself that I 
must switch inks AGAIN; the metamerism is simply FAR too 
much. I have been just "looking the other way" in regard to this, 
but it's just gotta happen when I return from this new trip.

I had been using MIS 6-color "1270-type inks" in my 7000, and 
the contrast and punch is killer, with absolutely NO metamerism 
at all. I could ask nothing more from these inks, short of wanting 
them to be stable in fifty or so years. I just put up my first real 
show, and all the prints (36 big ones) are made with the MIS 
dyes, and they look great on the wall; night or day; tungsten or 
daylight.

Just this morning on the way to coffeemaker, in my underwear, I 
walked past this 24x48" print that's thumbtacked to the wall, near 
the front window. It looked noticeably green; so much that it took 
me back. But last night, as I went to bed, I walked past it and it hit 
me how nice it looked -- warm, sepia, perfect.

I have owned a 7500 (sent it back). I have used other 
Generations inks in my first 7000 (stopped). Now, this with the 
Gen4. Thank God I'm leaving for a few weeks so I can not deal 
with this til January.

The question you (I) have to ask is: what good is a print that lasts 
forever, if you don't even like it today?

-MT

A couple of quick obervations.

I guess I must have been bored last night, otherwise I would not have 
been doing this stuff.

Well anyway, I pulled the CIS on my 1280 and loading the Epson 
Lightfast Dyes. I then printed a black ink only of a image that had a 
long tonal scale. The 1280's dither pattern with the Epson driver is 
really pretty amazing. I compared the print to one made on the 7000 
with the MIS FS inks and the Piezo driver. The first thing that 
amazed me is the density of the black. The second thing was that 
visually you can not see dots or dither w/o a loupe.

The whole reason I brought this up is that recently I have been 
trying to get a truly neutral gray print. We hung four prints against 
a wall in a local gallery. A Piezo, an MIS FS, a selenium toned 
silver gelatin, and a platinum print. The Piezo definitely had a 
green cast, the MIS a slightly less but still green cast. The 
platinum was warm and the selenium toned silver was the most neutral.

Then I was told about the newest Epson lightfast dyes coming in March 
with the new series of 8000 printers. These dyes are said to be 50-75 
year dyes. I don't know if this is true, but at this point it is 
hearsay. 

I have also been told that black only prints on the Epson 10000 are 
amazing. Much like the 1280, only better and bigger.

So much to do, so little time.

Mike

Before I forget,

In testing inks and dyes recently, we ran the Epson 1280 Lightfast 
black through a densitometer. The density measured over 2.1! I don't 
recall the exact density as it may have been closer to 2.2.

In comparison on H. Torchon I think Antonis measured the black at 
1.67 or something close.

I really have to agree that although 25 years is not really adequate, 
if Epson gets their dye rating to 50-75 years then we have a whold 
new ball game.

Perhaps a new lightfast (Durabrite) quad black dyes set would be cool 
to mess with. I think that Lincolns Quads are dye based inks if I 
remember correctly. Anyone used them?

Mike

Mike what paper do you use for the dyes? Am I right in thinking that the
heavyweight matte papers are no good for dye - I'm thing PR here.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "mkravit" <mkravit@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 3:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Neutral RGB Grayscale


> A couple of quick obervations.
>
> I guess I must have been bored last night, otherwise I would not have
> been doing this stuff.
>
> Well anyway, I pulled the CIS on my 1280 and loading the Epson
> Lightfast Dyes. I then printed a black ink only of a image that had a
> long tonal scale. The 1280's dither pattern with the Epson driver is
> really pretty amazing. I compared the print to one made on the 7000
> with the MIS FS inks and the Piezo driver. The first thing that
> amazed me is the density of the black. The second thing was that
> visually you can not see dots or dither w/o a loupe.
>
> The whole reason I brought this up is that recently I have been
> trying to get a truly neutral gray print. We hung four prints against
> a wall in a local gallery. A Piezo, an MIS FS, a selenium toned
> silver gelatin, and a platinum print. The Piezo definitely had a
> green cast, the MIS a slightly less but still green cast. The
> platinum was warm and the selenium toned silver was the most neutral.
>
> Then I was told about the newest Epson lightfast dyes coming in March
> with the new series of 8000 printers. These dyes are said to be 50-75
> year dyes. I don't know if this is true, but at this point it is
> hearsay.
>
> I have also been told that black only prints on the Epson 10000 are
> amazing. Much like the 1280, only better and bigger.
>
> So much to do, so little time.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
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>
>
>

Julian,

Last night I tried it with H. Photo Rag 308. Looked great!

I have not tried any other papers, but I will this weekend.

Mike

And what good is an expensive print, purchased from a professional, that changes dramatically with time..due to the use of fugitive dye based inks?  

If used by a commercial photographer to produce a print that is later "scanned" or used in prepress work...I think it is fine.  

If sold as a Fine Art print for assumed hundreds of dollars...I think different.  

Of course some people get paid to create sculptures in ice...so permanence is not everything. 

Steadman

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: mtucker508 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 7:37 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Neutral RGB Grayscale


  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., SKID Photography 
  <skid@b...> wrote:
  > I have never heard of a metamerism problem with dye based 
  inks...I thought it was strictly a pigment ink
  > problem.

  Harvey, Mike,

  I'll just throw in my two cents here. I seem to be the king of trying 
  (read: fighting) to print B/W with color inks. In my neurotic search 
  for long life prints and stability, I just switched back (again) to 
  Generations4. It supposedly had "less" metamerism than other 
  pigments. In the last day or so, I've had to admit to myself that I 
  must switch inks AGAIN; the metamerism is simply FAR too 
  much. I have been just "looking the other way" in regard to this, 
  but it's just gotta happen when I return from this new trip.

  I had been using MIS 6-color "1270-type inks" in my 7000, and 
  the contrast and punch is killer, with absolutely NO metamerism 
  at all. I could ask nothing more from these inks, short of wanting 
  them to be stable in fifty or so years. I just put up my first real 
  show, and all the prints (36 big ones) are made with the MIS 
  dyes, and they look great on the wall; night or day; tungsten or 
  daylight.

  Just this morning on the way to coffeemaker, in my underwear, I 
  walked past this 24x48" print that's thumbtacked to the wall, near 
  the front window. It looked noticeably green; so much that it took 
  me back. But last night, as I went to bed, I walked past it and it hit 
  me how nice it looked -- warm, sepia, perfect.

  I have owned a 7500 (sent it back). I have used other 
  Generations inks in my first 7000 (stopped). Now, this with the 
  Gen4. Thank God I'm leaving for a few weeks so I can not deal 
  with this til January.

  The question you (I) have to ask is: what good is a print that lasts 
  forever, if you don't even like it today?

  -MT


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Adding further to this discussion: I have tried to come up with a 
solution that (for me) gives the most flexibility on a day-to-day 
basis. I use a 1270 printer, and have used OEM dyes, Media Street 
Plug-N-Play on a CIS, and MIS VM-HEX also on a CIS. My (current, but 
it may change) choice is the P&P dyes. I can produce (to my eyes) 
neutral prints with no obvious color cross-overs, but only provided 
the image has a lot of detailed information and very little graded 
grays. I have created curves adjustment layers to accomplish this. 
Those in Scott Hendershot's Print Exhange will see an image printed 
with these inks. All bets are off if the image contains gradients 
(large expanse of skies for instance). The solution to this problem, 
I have found is to bias my print a particular tone (cool or warm, but 
not neutral) using duotones. The minor residual color crossovers, it 
seems are overwhelmed by the warm bias I use. Using profiles may 
obviate the need to do this, but I have not tried it.

So, with my P&P set-up I can print color on all papers (including 
fine-art, and glossy), I can print neutral b/w if there is alot of 
detail, and warm duotones, also on all papers. Other than the Epson 
papers, which are excellent, I have used Torchon, and other 
Hehhemuelle (spelling?) papers with great results. A surprising paper 
has been the Epson Watercolor Bright White - it is stunning with dye 
inks, using the MHW setting. The only issue for me is that I have no 
idea how long the images will last - but then if an image fades, I 
can just print it again (I don't sell images, I just give them away.

These are my experiences, and no doubt will be different from other 
people's - there are more revelations ahead!

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "mkravit" <mkravit@k...> 
wrote:

> Julian,
> 
> Last night I tried it with H. Photo Rag 308. Looked great!
> 
> I have not tried any other papers, but I will this weekend.
> 
> Mike

My dream machine would actually have the deep black, two grays, and 3
colors.  Then we could get the best of both worlds.

I tried the Generations color pigs and thought I had them relatively well
controlled, but then later the prints were not the same. I think my 1160
printer variances are too great.  In doing these MIS VM curves, I see test
strips from a fair number of people, and they all exhibit + or - 1-2%
variances even where there were no changes in the curves.  So, given the
sensitivity of the eye to tints with neutral prints, I wonder if the
commonly-used printers are consistent enough to give good, neutral B&W
prints from day-to-day using the color inks.  Maybe the 6-ink printers are
better at this than the 4-inkers, but I definitely see variations in
densities with all of them.

In designing the variable-tone system, I held the gamut of the toner down as
low as I could be avoid these problems surfacing.  The gamut is cut to the
point where it can just barely hit neutral at 90% on my 1160.  That seems to
be working.  While I see variances of about 1 unit (of 256) in the degree of
coolness or warmness, they seem to be consistent across the print.

Also, when I look at my color ink experiments now, they look terrible.  I
think the pigments may be fading at different rates, thus increasing the
problems.  I have some B&Ws made from color dyes, and they look very magenta
after a year or so of display.

I also tried the black-ink-only approach.  With my 1160 and with the 1280
samples I've seen, they may work for those who like the grainy look, but
they don't work for the landscapes I like.  It was not only grain, but also
banding artifacts that showed up.

I know of people using Epson black dye with quad pigments.  The results are
said to be striking, but I wonder about metamerism, fading, and
warm-shifting.

I tried the Generations Enhanced black in the variable-tone mix, but it
showed metamerism and warm-shifted more.

Mike, you mentioned your attempts to hang Piezo or FS quads next to a silver
print.  That is exactly what got me into all this.  They just don't look
good hanging together, and I have lots of silver prints.  So far the MIS VM
is the best solution.  It still has a slight bit of green in it, but they
look quite good next to my mildly-selenium-toned silver prints.   The
neutral base I'm now finalizing for the sepia-neutral variable-tone and the
FS-neutral will be dead-on neutral at 50% and through the midtones, on
average. I'm putting a tad more magenta than cyan in it to get than green
channel down to equal to the red and blue.  Paper choice makes a fair amount
of difference here also.  But, I don't think any of these inkset will ever
truly be as neutral as the silver prints.  If they are visually equal and
stay that way for a number of years, then that's where I stop worrying about
it.

So, maybe the universal inkset will be here someday, but I'd guess most of
us are going to be most satisfied with quads for a couple more years.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Steadman Uhlich" 
<steadmanuhlich@k...> wrote:
> And what good is an expensive print, purchased from a 
professional, that changes dramatically with time..due to the use 
of fugitive dye based inks? 

Steadman,

I totally totally hear you. But what to do, my friend? You're in a 
pinch either way you go.

I love the feeling that I have right now with these pigments, that 
when a print pops out of the 7000, I know (think) it's gonna be 
here til the cows come home.

But then, carry that same stable print to the window, and watch it 
turn green.

So then, you reload the dyes, and the print looks great in any 
room, but then you start sweating when you're packaging up the 
print to ship it out.

But today, I'm leaning toward this scenario: sell my prints cheap, 
print them with 1270 dyes, and then put some kind of mild 
disclaimer in there with them, and then justify it that way. In my 
distorted view of life, if somebody's paying much less than 
"normal", whatever normal is, then if it fades somewhat in 25 
years, then I won't feel "that" bad about it, whatever "that bad" is.

I'd rather feel bad about the print in 25 years, than today, when I 
carry it to the window.

-Mark Tucker
Between rock and hard place

In a message dated 12/14/01 1:03:28 PM, mark@... writes:

<< But today, I'm leaning toward this scenario: sell my prints cheap, 
print them with 1270 dyes, and then put some kind of mild 
disclaimer in there with them, and then justify it that way. In my 
distorted view of life, if somebody's paying much less than 
"normal", whatever normal is, then if it fades somewhat in 25 
years, then I won't feel "that" bad about it, whatever "that bad" is.

I'd rather feel bad about the print in 25 years, than today, when I 
carry it to the window.

-Mark Tucker
Between rock and hard place >>

The only problem is that at least in my tests, the 1270 dye blacks turned 
green in a month taped to my window. I wonder if anyone else has noticed 
this, even in less harsh conditions.

All the best!

-Andy Darlow

> The only problem is that at least in my tests, the 1270 dye 
blacks turned 
> green in a month taped to my window. I wonder if anyone else 
has noticed 
> this, even in less harsh conditions.
> 
> All the best!
> 
> -Andy Darlow
The Epson 1270 black dye turns a disgusting shade of green 
instantly on Epson Premium Luster, but it certainly is very neutral 
and beautiful on BC Eclipse Satine.  However, like you said, for 
how long?

Mark,
I know you are suspicious, but the Indelible Inks have no/extremely low metamerism, are pigment, stable, good
gamut and work in the Epson 7000.

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC



mtucker508 wrote:

>  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., SKID Photography
> <skid@b...> wrote:
> > I have never heard of a metamerism problem with dye based
> inks...I thought it was strictly a pigment ink
> > problem.
>
> Harvey, Mike,
>
> I'll just throw in my two cents here. I seem to be the king of trying
> (read: fighting) to print B/W with color inks. In my neurotic search
> for long life prints and stability, I just switched back (again) to
> Generations4. It supposedly had "less" metamerism than other
> pigments. In the last day or so, I've had to admit to myself that I
> must switch inks AGAIN; the metamerism is simply FAR too
> much. I have been just "looking the other way" in regard to this,
> but it's just gotta happen when I return from this new trip.
>
> I had been using MIS 6-color "1270-type inks" in my 7000, and
> the contrast and punch is killer, with absolutely NO metamerism
> at all. I could ask nothing more from these inks, short of wanting
> them to be stable in fifty or so years. I just put up my first real
> show, and all the prints (36 big ones) are made with the MIS
> dyes, and they look great on the wall; night or day; tungsten or
> daylight.
>
> Just this morning on the way to coffeemaker, in my underwear, I
> walked past this 24x48" print that's thumbtacked to the wall, near
> the front window. It looked noticeably green; so much that it took
> me back. But last night, as I went to bed, I walked past it and it hit
> me how nice it looked -- warm, sepia, perfect.
>
> I have owned a 7500 (sent it back). I have used other
> Generations inks in my first 7000 (stopped). Now, this with the
> Gen4. Thank God I'm leaving for a few weeks so I can not deal
> with this til January.
>
> The question you (I) have to ask is: what good is a print that lasts
> forever, if you don't even like it today?
>
> -MT
> .





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Perfectly normal for 1270 Dye inks

Jerry



scho_2000 wrote:

> 
> > The only problem is that at least in my tests, the 1270 dye
> blacks turned
> > green in a month taped to my window. I wonder if anyone else
> has noticed
> > this, even in less harsh conditions.
> >
> > All the best!
> >
> > -Andy Darlow
> The Epson 1270 black dye turns a disgusting shade of green
> instantly on Epson Premium Luster, but it certainly is very neutral
> and beautiful on BC Eclipse Satine.  However, like you said, for
> how long?
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/