Digital BW, The Print

Hi folks,

Well, since there is practically no support for QTR I'll bother you guys and gals, sorry about that but that is what the site said to do!  I have read the help file, end to end, but it is mostly just telling you what each menu is for.  No details.

There are many problems using this software, but one that is really killing me is that there is no way to stop a print once it is started - ie no cancel function.  Do you reboot to stop it or just turn off the printer ?  I'm going to be patient and try to learn the in's/out's of the RIP ... have to since I'm printing some art works of mine that are larger than 44" long (PS won't go past that in my setup).  

There are things that seem good, but also:  you have to pick some paper profiles by chance to figure out tone ... how do you get started with that ?  Print a file with all the different profiles ?  I've tried starting with the ones for the paper I'm using (Moab Entreda nat white) and between the warm and sepia I can get some interesting tones.  It does seem that there are some big limits on what tone is available though ... with the above and using the "cool tone" Moab curve you can get somewhere between greenish and a redish tone.  Apparently no way to go yellowish etc. (at least with those curves).  I am, unfortunately, used to working in PhotoShop where making these kind of tone changes is simple.

It is obvious that a lot of testing is needed to use this software and I am behind, please have some patience with that :) Any suggestions would be welcome to help get some control over the printing.

David

David, see comments inline:

> There are many problems using this software, but one that is 
> really killing me is that there is no way to stop a print 
> once it is started - ie no cancel function.  Do you reboot to 
> stop it or just turn off the printer ?  

You don't say whether you are using a PC or a MAC.  I am using a PC so I can
give you the instructions for stopping a print job on a PC.

All QTR does is process the file and send it to your printer using the
Windows spooling mechanism.  If you want to stop a print job, you have to go
to your "Printers and Faxes" folder and OPEN the printer that you are using.
You will see a large print job that is "printing".  If things are not coming
out the way you like, you can always click on the print job and "cancel" it.

By the way, start with small prints and even cut down some paper if you want
to save money.  You can also use a lower resolution print output such as 720
or even less if you just want some fast, small prints to get a hang of
things.

> There are things that seem good, but also:  you have to pick 
> some paper profiles by chance to figure out tone ... how do 
> you get started with that ?  

Generally, you want to pick out a profile that is appropriate for the paper
that you are using.  But I would start with some inexpensive Epson Enhance
Matte paper and the EEM profiles.  Put the cool on one side of QTRGui and
the warm on the other side and start experimenting.  EEM is inexpensive and
if you start with small prints, you can try different slider positions and
see what you end up with.  That's the best way to get started.

> Print a file with all the 
> different profiles ?  

No, you don't need to do this.  Just select one set of profiles and use
those with one paper until you get the hang of things.

> I've tried starting with the ones for 
> the paper I'm using (Moab Entreda nat white) and between the 
> warm and sepia I can get some interesting tones.  It does 
> seem that there are some big limits on what tone is available 
> though ... with the above and using the "cool tone" Moab 
> curve you can get somewhere between greenish and a redish 
> tone.  Apparently no way to go yellowish etc. (at least with 
> those curves).  

You need to use cool on one side and warm on the other.  Or if there is a
sepia or cool-se, you can try those in different combinations.  Such as cool
and sepia or cool-se and warm, etc.  With each of these combinations, you
can get ranges of warm to cool prints and of course neutral ones as well.

> I am, unfortunately, used to working in 
> PhotoShop where making these kind of tone changes is simple.

You will find QTR powerful once you get used to it.  Also, if you ever want
to create your own custom profiles, you will be able to get pretty much any
type of print you want.  But to start with, just use the curves that come
with distribution and you will have a simpler time.

> It is obvious that a lot of testing is needed to use this 
> software and I am behind, please have some patience with that 
> :) Any suggestions would be welcome to help get some control 
> over the printing.

This is a great group of folks and I have seen this forum be extremely
helpful to new people.  Just take it one step at a time and when you get
stuck ask a question.

Paul

Hi and thank you for your answers to my petculant outbreak (while staying up late trying to get this combo working ...)

I use a PC with winXP pro.  Nothing fancy at all, built it just for printing (Pent 3, 550MHz, 128 RAM .... yup going to up that).

On stopping the print, interesting idea, I will check that out ! thanks

As for testing, I did start with small test prints and some came out well.  Since I switched to roll paper to start to get this show printed problems have come up.  BUT I stand by my assertion that knowing what is going to happen with any particular combo requires you to print that combo... there is no method to preview what might happen or even get a hint for that matter.  I tried using the Entreda cool and warm and then I tried warm and sepia.  While QTR can produce extremely subtle gradations between the pure cool and pur sepia:  all those gradations are along a single color change line.  Basically from a greenish (pure cool) tone to a brownish (pure sepia).  No way to get to any other tones that I can see.  It apparently is the case that I can produce the other possibilities thru custom curves I make later.  One thing that is odd ... the cool tone is really what most would call a warm tone.  I realize that this is likely a limitation of the paper (a warm toned variety) and the ink set (UC).

 
> You will find QTR powerful once you get used to it.  Also, if you ever want
> to create your own custom profiles, you will be able to get pretty much any
> type of print you want.  But to start with, just use the curves that come
> with distribution and you will have a simpler time.
> 

I am trying to get them to work .... and I've heard a lot about QTR, hence why I'm tring it.  Now if I could just figure out how to avoid the huge difference in brightness between PS and QTR (a PS view of the file is about 50% brighter than a QTR print, so you have to either reset it to print or keep another copy - anonying but workable).

 
> This is a great group of folks and I have seen this forum be extremely
> helpful to new people.  Just take it one step at a time and when you get
> stuck ask a question.
> 
> Paul

Thanks for your help Paul, and sorry for the "tone" of my first post but of late it seems there is a lot of software out there with no support but great abilities... you would think that in order to capture a market away from the likes of PS the authors would at least put out a small tutorial or the like.  I'm just frustrated that is all.

David

> As for testing, I did start with small test prints and some 
> came out well.  Since I switched to roll paper to start to 
> get this show printed problems have come up.  BUT I stand by 
> my assertion that knowing what is going to happen with any 
> particular combo requires you to print that combo... there is 
> no method to preview what might happen or even get a hint for 
> that matter.  

Yes, but there are also soft-proofing tools available so you can preview in
Photoshop.  I have not tried these tools yet and so I can't comment.  Others
on this list use the soft-proofing tools and perhaps can help.

> I tried using the Entreda cool and warm and 
> then I tried warm and sepia.  While QTR can produce extremely 
> subtle gradations between the pure cool and pur sepia:  all 
> those gradations are along a single color change line.  
> Basically from a greenish (pure cool) tone to a brownish 
> (pure sepia).  

Most curves that I have looked at in detail generally have cyan added to
cool down the blacks for the cool curve and for the warm curve generally
rely on the warmth of the matte black.  Sepia adds yellow.  This is for
Epson Ultrachrome inks in a 2200 because that is what I have.  And this is
of course a simplification, you need to look at the curves to see what they
are doing.  In any case, you're right, the curves define what is possible to
change with the slider, you can't go outside what was designed in the curve.

Remember that these curves were designed to create a look similar to
wet-processed prints of various types, so you're not going to be able to get
major color changes with pre-defined curves.

> No way to get to any other tones that I can 
> see.  It apparently is the case that I can produce the other 
> possibilities thru custom curves I make later.  

Correct

> One thing 
> that is odd ... the cool tone is really what most would call 
> a warm tone.  I realize that this is likely a limitation of 
> the paper (a warm toned variety) and the ink set (UC).

Of course the paper has the effect of putting the print in context but I can
get a pretty cool print using the standard curves and slider.
 
> I am trying to get them to work .... and I've heard a lot 
> about QTR, hence why I'm tring it.  Now if I could just 
> figure out how to avoid the huge difference in brightness 
> between PS and QTR (a PS view of the file is about 50% 
> brighter than a QTR print, so you have to either reset it to 
> print or keep another copy - anonying but workable).

Okay, this is a different subject and you should search the archives to read
up on this.  Briefly, you need to first make sure you have a calibrated
monitor, that will help a lot.  Second, I would recommend you use Roy's
gray-lab, gray-matte and gray-photo icc profiles.  Use gray-lab as your
working space and then when you print, do a "convert to" gray-matte and save
that as your TIFF file.  Your prints will be closer to what you see on the
screen.  Please read the archives, there has been a ton written on this.
The above holds true if you are using grayscale working space.  If you are
working in RGB, use rgb-lab as your working space and rgb-matte as the
"convert to" before you save the file you send to the printer.

> Thanks for your help Paul, and sorry for the "tone" of my 
> first post but of late it seems there is a lot of software 
> out there with no support but great abilities... you would 
> think that in order to capture a market away from the likes 
> of PS the authors would at least put out a small tutorial or 
> the like.  I'm just frustrated that is all.

Just keep it real, keep it cordial and folks will help.  Frankly, I don't
think Roy is trying to compete with Adobe. :-)  I won't start a debate
regarding commercial SW support vs. independent developers and community
support, but you just need to understand QTR was developed by a photographer
for a community of photographers and enthusiasts and for your $50 payment,
you are getting just that.  Try the program out and come up the learning
curve and you will be happy.  If not, then you always have the option of
spending many hundreds of dollars on a commercial RIP that frankly will
probably take longer to come up to speed on than QTR.  I was creating nice
prints with QTR within 15 minutes of installing it.

Paul