Digital BW, The Print

From:  Tom Baker <tbaker1328@s...>
Date:  Fri Mar 4, 2005  9:09 am
Subject:  Re: [Digital BW] Caponigro 8-bit, 16-bit


I don't have the book in front of me at the moment, but wasn't he doing that
because most things couldn't be done in 16 bit in PS7? PS/CS (PS8) solves
most,
but not all of the issues.

Tom Baker

> So I intend to work with Pshop 7, and do the best I can with it.
> 
> Norm
>

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: guy washburn 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 9:35 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Caonigro 8-bit, 16-bit


  CS justification? The ability to do everything in 16
  bit and Camera Raw 2.4 (Highlight saving, browser etc)
  make it a no brainer if you ask me.

  Guy
  --- Djon <westsidemaurice@...> wrote:



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Dan Koons 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 9:47 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Caonigro 8-bit, 16-bit


  How much cost is involved to convert windows 98 to CS?  Dan
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: "Djon" <westsidemaurice@...>
  To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
  Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 8:26 AM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Caonigro 8-bit, 16-bit




  Norm, I'm still running 98 on one of my machines, but it will destroy
  itself with usage...98 inherently corrupts itself. And popups vanish
  with XP.

  I found it easy to switch to XP. Then the service pack 2 came
  along...a big problem with already sluggish and over-complicated
  Norton and McAfee but not with Computer Associates EZ Antivirus, which
  updates and does its work in the background.

  When I convert my final 98 machine to XP I will first uninstall all
  antivirus/popup applications because most will conflict with Service
  Pack 2, which will get forced on you by the system. Norton is
  especially bad.

  PS 7 is great...I don't know a justification for CS in real photography.

  Matter of fact, Elements 2 is plenty good for many purposes, though
  not very intuitive for color correction if you come at this as I do
  from traditional color photolab/studio photography angle.

  I run Elements 2 along with 7 for its Silverfast SE. I've decided my
  Vuescan is useless because its slow, offers no particular advantage
  over Silverfast, and it conflicts with my online fax/800# voicemail
  system, J2.com (which I've used in for business for nine years).




  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "normsams"
  <normsams@w...> wrote:
  > Right on.  I had intended to upgrade to CS, but I'm running Windows
  98SE.
  > When I went to upgrade to Windows 2000 so I could install CS I
  discovered
  > that much I had on my computer wasn't compatible with the Widows
  upgrade.
  > So I intend to work with Pshop 7, and do the best I can with it.
  >
  > Norm
  >






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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Djon" <westsidemaurice@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 8:26 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Caonigro 8-bit, 16-bit




Norm, I'm still running 98 on one of my machines, but it will destroy
itself with usage...98 inherently corrupts itself. And popups vanish
with XP.

I found it easy to switch to XP. Then the service pack 2 came
along...a big problem with already sluggish and over-complicated
Norton and McAfee but not with Computer Associates EZ Antivirus, which
updates and does its work in the background.

When I convert my final 98 machine to XP I will first uninstall all
antivirus/popup applications because most will conflict with Service
Pack 2, which will get forced on you by the system. Norton is
especially bad.

PS 7 is great...I don't know a justification for CS in real photography.

Matter of fact, Elements 2 is plenty good for many purposes, though
not very intuitive for color correction if you come at this as I do
from traditional color photolab/studio photography angle.

I run Elements 2 along with 7 for its Silverfast SE. I've decided my
Vuescan is useless because its slow, offers no particular advantage
over Silverfast, and it conflicts with my online fax/800# voicemail
system, J2.com (which I've used in for business for nine years).




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "normsams"
<normsams@w...> wrote:
> Right on.  I had intended to upgrade to CS, but I'm running Windows
98SE.
> When I went to upgrade to Windows 2000 so I could install CS I
discovered
> that much I had on my computer wasn't compatible with the Widows
upgrade.
> So I intend to work with Pshop 7, and do the best I can with it.
>
> Norm
>






Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
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FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Diane Fields" <picnic@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 8:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Caonigro 8-bit, 16-bit



Dan, I think this was a typo---I believe you mean 98 to XP Pro.

Having just done this on my husband's computer, I know that XP Pro upgrade
was $199 (that may be different depending upon where you buy it).  David's
computer is my old computer built for me and is way more than adequate for
his needs, but because we 'owned' Win 98SE and ME at the time and didn't see
the need to buy XPPro for him, we had 98SE put on as OS.  It WAS adequate
and 'relatively' stable for older usage, but it was driving him crazy with
crashes and other problems.  We just upgraded his OS to XP Pro and what a
difference.

Diane
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Dan Koons
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 9:47 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Caonigro 8-bit, 16-bit


  How much cost is involved to convert windows 98 to CS?  Dan
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: "Djon" <westsidemaurice@...>
  To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
  Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2005 8:26 AM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Caonigro 8-bit, 16-bit




  Norm, I'm still running 98 on one of my machines, but it will destroy
  itself with usage...98 inherently corrupts itself. And popups vanish
  with XP.

  I found it easy to switch to XP. Then the service pack 2 came
  along...a big problem with already sluggish and over-complicated
  Norton and McAfee but not with Computer Associates EZ Antivirus, which
  updates and does its work in the background.

  When I convert my final 98 machine to XP I will first uninstall all
  antivirus/popup applications because most will conflict with Service
  Pack 2, which will get forced on you by the system. Norton is
  especially bad.

  PS 7 is great...I don't know a justification for CS in real photography.

  Matter of fact, Elements 2 is plenty good for many purposes, though
  not very intuitive for color correction if you come at this as I do
  from traditional color photolab/studio photography angle.

  I run Elements 2 along with 7 for its Silverfast SE. I've decided my
  Vuescan is useless because its slow, offers no particular advantage
  over Silverfast, and it conflicts with my online fax/800# voicemail
  system, J2.com (which I've used in for business for nine years).




  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "normsams"
  <normsams@w...> wrote:
  > Right on.  I had intended to upgrade to CS, but I'm running Windows
  98SE.
  > When I went to upgrade to Windows 2000 so I could install CS I
  discovered
  > that much I had on my computer wasn't compatible with the Widows
  upgrade.
  > So I intend to work with Pshop 7, and do the best I can with it.
  >
  > Norm
  >






  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
  they are often being updated.

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  YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
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YOU
  FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
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  GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
  "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
  POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
  TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO
OR
  ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF
ANY
  THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
  MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

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> CS justification? The ability to do everything in 16
> bit and Camera Raw 2.4 (Highlight saving, browser etc)
> make it a no brainer if you ask me.
> 
> Guy
> --- Djon <westsidemaurice@y...> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > PS 7 is great...I don't know a justification for CS
> > in real photography. 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 	
> 		
> __________________________________ 
> Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday! 
> Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web 
> http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/

On Mar 5, 2005, at 1:53 PM, Tom Andrews wrote:

>
>
> Hi,
>
> In my own experience I have yet to find any use for 16-bit files, 
> which agrees
> with Dan Margulis' ideas (check out long discussions on Colortheory 
> list).  I
> scan MF film on a Nikon8000 and make prints to 32x40 with an Epson 10K
> and find 8-bit files just as good as 16-bit files for correcting in 
> PS.  I have
> tested this with a number of files.  However, I almost never make 
> really large
> changes in my files.  Recently I have taken to doing my scans in 
> 8-bit, which
> gives me a 250Mb rather than a 500Mb file.  So I get twice the storage
> capacity of my hard drives.  I am always ready to be proven wrong, 
> however.
> Cheers,
>
> Tom Andrews
> http://www.wildlandart.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the 
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” 
> AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> As someone who works on other people's files on a regular basis I can
> vouch for the unquestioned advantage of hi bit for B&W.
> Currently I'm struggling with banding in gradated skies that have come
> in from someone who knows what they are doing, made otherwise good
> scans, but with an old Imacon that would not yeild 16 bit (could have
> been old software).
> I've seen it time and time again.
> I regularly rescan for people because of this, many pro scanning
> services will not offer 16 bit, nor understand why you want it.
> We're in a niche here.
> If you are fine with 8 bit files, keep working and be grateful. But if
> you keep going with this stuff over the years, particularly single
> channel B&W gray files with extremely accurate output systems, you
> will find the need to go to 16 bit.
> Who has time to argue with Margulis, he doesn't do what we do, and
> most of us who work with this stuff every day know he's wrong for our
> application of the technology.
> If you are interested in someone who knows what they are talking about
> and can counter him, go to Bruce Lindbloom's site.
> Tyler

> 
> Hi Tyler,
> 
> No I don't want to reargue the Margulis-Lindbloom argument.  What was 
> important to me was simply that Margulis questioned the received wisdom 
> that 16bit provided a descernible advantage to 8bit files.  His questioning 
> provoked me to do some testing on my own images.  So I took a number of 
> medium format film images that I knew would need some correction and 
> scanned them at both 8bit and 16bit, did my corrections, cropped out smaller 
> portions from files expanded to produce 32x40 prints and compared the 
> prints.  I couldn't see any differences.  That coupled with the fact that the 
> correcting I generally do is usually quite subtle and not particularly histogram 
> busting, led me to think that scanning in 16bit was a waste of time and 
> space.  However, I can certainly appreciate that other photographers might 
> find real advantages to a 16bit work flow for their work.  Cheers,
> 
> Tom Andrews
> http://www.wildlandart.com 
> 
>  
> > As someone who works on other people's files on a regular basis I can
> > vouch for the unquestioned advantage of hi bit for B&W.
> > Currently I'm struggling with banding in gradated skies that have come
> > in from someone who knows what they are doing, made otherwise good
> > scans, but with an old Imacon that would not yeild 16 bit (could have
> > been old software).
> > I've seen it time and time again.
> > I regularly rescan for people because of this, many pro scanning
> > services will not offer 16 bit, nor understand why you want it.
> > We're in a niche here.
> > If you are fine with 8 bit files, keep working and be grateful. But if
> > you keep going with this stuff over the years, particularly single
> > channel B&W gray files with extremely accurate output systems, you
> > will find the need to go to 16 bit.
> > Who has time to argue with Margulis, he doesn't do what we do, and
> > most of us who work with this stuff every day know he's wrong for our
> > application of the technology.
> > If you are interested in someone who knows what they are talking about
> > and can counter him, go to Bruce Lindbloom's site.
> > Tyler